A great dive that went bad really quickly

A few weeks ago I was coming out of a cave and noticed a lead with flow coming out of it. I tied in and ran 100' of line or so. I could see that it was getting small but definitely going. Well today I finally get back there with two buddies. One of them has been working a passage a little bit before my new lead. The other buddy who I will call Zorro asked prior to going in the water if he could lay a little line even if it wasn't much. I told him where to go in so that he would hit my existing line and I would survey it on the way out. I had 3 stages and they were each diving two. I dropped my 3rd stage at the start of my new line and because of this met Zorro on my line. I went under him and all seemed okay.

I had dropped down in a little hole that I had to wedge myself into to tie my line into a hole in the rock on a previous dive. So I tied my reel into this tie off and took off. After I had run just a little line I felt the tension change on the line. I thought surely he didn't cut the line I am on. I then told myself that it was probably just a wrap coming off. I continued on following the flow. After a couple hundred feet I came to a little room swam around it and couldn't find any flow. I dropped back down and started following the flow again. It soon came to a silt mound that I was going to have to plow through to get to the other side where I could see it opened back up. I decided to tie off and survey out. As I just had a bad feeling about the line. I am surveying out and about 200' from the main line I come to a loose end of line laying next to the line I just laid. I thought where did this come from? I quit surveying and started wadding up the loose end of the line. I soon came to the rock with the hole in it that I had tied to on the previous day and no line going any farther. This passage is knee high and silty so the viz was a foot a best now. I grabbed my reel and tied in to the rock with the hole. I went in the direction I thought was out and the viz didn't improve and there was rock and silt everywhere. I thought well this is getting really bad. I backed back up to my rock and decided to let thing clear up a little.

After what was a few minutes but seemed like forever things started clearing up a little bit and I could see 5 feet or so. I started in what I thought was the right direction. The rocks are covered in silt and I could soon see some places where the silt was knocked off. I am now starting to feel a little better at least someone has been through here before. I go a little further and can see the line in the silt from where the line had been laying in it as it went downhill. Things are now improving a whole lot. A little ways farther and there is the rock I had wrapped the line around on the previous dive. And thank goodness there is new line. I have never been so relieved to see line.

The dive out was very relaxing as I pocked around in a few more holes. I don't think I have ever enjoyed coming out after a dive as much as this one. As I finally finished my deco and got to the surface Zorro was definitely glad to see me. And apologized over and over again for accidently cutting my line. It seems that he had his zknife out to cut his line and tie into mine when he said all of a sudden my line moved and landed on his knife where it was cut. The line then went down into the silt cloud I had created as I went down into the smaller section. He said things started to clear and he almost had the line when it just took off. I am guessing that while I was tying in my new line I got the line hung on some of my gear and since it was cut the line followed me as I swam into the cave. I really feel bad for my buddy as I think he was more shook up than I was.

I am posting this so that hopefully someone can learn something from thinking about what they would do in a broke line condition and having to go a ways to find the end of the line. Staying calm and looking for signs of where to go by reading the cave definitely helped me out I hope no one has to do this but I hope others can learn from my incident and I am glad I am able to tell the story.

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Originally Posted by bamafan

A few weeks ago I was coming out of a cave and noticed a lead with flow coming out of it. I tied in and ran 100' of line or so. I could see that it was getting small but definitely going. Well today I finally get back there with two buddies. One of them has been working a passage a little bit before my new lead. The other buddy who I will call Zorro asked prior to going in the water if he could lay a little line even if it wasn't much. I told him where to go in so that he would hit my existing line and I would survey it on the way out. I had 3 stages and they were each diving two. I dropped my 3rd stage at the start of my new line and because of this met Zorro on my line. I went under him and all seemed okay.

I had dropped down in a little hole that I had to wedge myself into to tie my line into a hole in the rock on a previous dive. So I tied my reel into this tie off and took off. After I had run just a little line I felt the tension change on the line. I thought surely he didn't cut the line I am on. I then told myself that it was probably just a wrap coming off. I continued on following the flow. After a couple hundred feet I came to a little room swam around it and couldn't find any flow. I dropped back down and started following the flow again. It soon came to a silt mound that I was going to have to plow through to get to the other side where I could see it opened back up. I decided to tie off and survey out. As I just had a bad feeling about the line. I am surveying out and about 200' from the main line I come to a loose end of line laying next to the line I just laid. I thought where did this come from? I quit surveying and started wadding up the loose end of the line. I soon came to the rock with the hole in it that I had tied to on the previous day and no line going any farther. This passage is knee high and silty so the viz was a foot a best now. I grabbed my reel and tied in to the rock with the hole. I went in the direction I thought was out and the viz didn't improve and there was rock and silt everywhere. I thought well this is getting really bad. I backed back up to my rock and decided to let thing clear up a little.

After what was a few minutes but seemed like forever things started clearing up a little bit and I could see 5 feet or so. I started in what I thought was the right direction. The rocks are covered in silt and I could soon see some places where the silt was knocked off. I am now starting to feel a little better at least someone has been through here before. I go a little further and can see the line in the silt from where the line had been laying in it as it went downhill. Things are now improving a whole lot. A little ways farther and there is the rock I had wrapped the line around on the previous dive. And thank goodness there is new line. I have never been so relieved to see line.

The dive out was very relaxing as I pocked around in a few more holes. I don't think I have ever enjoyed coming out after a dive as much as this one. As I finally finished my deco and got to the surface Zorro was definitely glad to see me. And apologized over and over again for accidently cutting my line. It seems that he had his zknife out to cut his line and tie into mine when he said all of a sudden my line moved and landed on his knife where it was cut. The line then went down into the silt cloud I had created as I went down into the smaller section. He said things started to clear and he almost had the line when it just took off. I am guessing that while I was tying in my new line I got the line hung on some of my gear and since it was cut the line followed me as I swam into the cave. I really feel bad for my buddy as I think he was more shook up than I was.

I am posting this so that hopefully someone can learn something from thinking about what they would do in a broke line condition and having to go a ways to find the end of the line. Staying calm and looking for signs of where to go by reading the cave definitely helped me out I hope no one has to do this but I hope others can learn from my incident and I am glad I am able to tell the story.

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Zorro...and naturally, he had a z-knife. I like that. I wonder if Gizmo from the other thread might have been wearing a G-string under his drysuit.

For the record I was not on this dive, lol! On that note I'm glad you made it out OK. A less experienced diver may well have perished. Great cave awareness. That's nearly a nightmare situation.

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Originally Posted by bamafan

...apologized over and over again for accidently cutting my line. It seems that he had his zknife out to cut his line and tie into mine when he said all of a sudden my line moved and landed on his knife where it was cut. The line then went down into the silt cloud I had created as I went down into the smaller section. He said things started to clear and he almost had the line when it just took off. I am guessing that while I was tying in my new line I got the line hung on some of my gear and since it was cut the line followed me as I swam into the cave.

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Thanks for the posting but I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this. Z was going to cut his line (why?) and your line "moved" into his Zknife which he accidently cut. Why did Z not tie in right there and follow you hoping to find you or at least wait for you at your entry site? ?

There is only one time in a cave where I had to cut any line and that was because the jump could not be removed fast enough and time was running out.

I will state that I am nowhere near others level of diving but...

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Originally Posted by TONY CHANEY

Thanks for the posting but I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this. Z was going to cut his line (why?) and your line "moved" into his Zknife which he accidently cut. Why did Z not tie in right there and follow you hoping to find you or at least wait for you at your entry site? ?

There is only one time in a cave where I had to cut any line and that was because the jump could not be removed fast enough and time was running out.

I will state that I am nowhere near others level of diving but...

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Things happen. When you're laying line you end up cutting something at least once a dive usually. If you don't empty a reel you have to cut it and tie off, or if you're splicing or repairing damaged lines, etc... .

If when he cut it, he still had extra line I think I would have run line after him until I caught up to him or the line or ran out. I wouldn't want to leave someone knowingly hanging like that.

Listen to your gut I suppose. Glad you made it out ok.

Yes he was tying off. The passage he was in was sidemount and the passage I went into right past him was knee high at best and zero viz from me going in. As far as waiting on me I took 3 stages and lp 120's vs his 108's and 2 stages. There is no way he was going to have enough gas to wait on me. It is easy to say you would have gone in but it is small passage and there aren't many people I would want in there with me. I posted this so others could think about it and decide what they would do if this happened.

Man, glad you're ok, Eric.

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Originally Posted by bamafan

Yes he was tying off. The passage he was in was sidemount and the passage I went into right past him was knee high at best and zero viz from me going in. As far as waiting on me I took 3 stages and lp 120's vs his 108's and 2 stages. There is no way he was going to have enough gas to wait on me. It is easy to say you would have gone in but it is small passage and there aren't many people I would want in there with me. I posted this so others could think about it and decide what they would do if this happened.

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Damn you are good! Four tanks: two stages plus 120's" in a knee high passage with zero vis. Freaking great. I really am glad all turned out well.

The stages were dropped along the main line. I just had 120's with me. Hopefully though I will be needing a stage in there soon.

Wow, what a story! I'm so glad all of you are doing fine and it's just been another free learning lesson.

That's scary stuff! Thanks for sharing, it's great that people are willing to tell these stories here.
How far did the line snap back when it was cut? It sounds like it was quite a gap with tie-offs undone? Did I get that right?
Some of the reports in this forum would be great for something like a new version of Shecks "Blueprint".

I don't think the line snapped back that much. What I think happen was I was up under a rock tying in my reel and apparently the line was on some of my gear. So as I swam into the flow the line followed me till I swam off the end of it. I am guessing it was 40 - 50' that the line was running parallel to my new line. Needless to say I quit surveying when I came upon the loose end of line parallel to the line I had just run. It seemed to me at the time to be a long way. If it hadn't of been for the flow helping clear things out some I think there might have been a diffetent outcome.

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Originally Posted by snakedoc

Zorro...and naturally, he had a z-knife. I like that. I wonder if Gizmo from the other thread might have been wearing a G-string under his drysuit.

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LMAO!!! I just pissed my pants.

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Originally Posted by Garth

LMAO!!! I just pissed my pants.

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Thats why I have a pvalve installed in all of my pants.

P-valves. They're not just for drysuits anymore.


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I would have been pretty pissed off at zorro and would've appreciated a reel run out in my direction; however it sounds like zoro may have got himself into trouble in those conditions.
There are a few really good lessons there for folks to absorb.

I'd like to think, if I were Zorro (a life long fantasy), I would have either tied in and followed that slack line, or if I thought it would make things worse, stay put with a light on in Eric's direction and try to breathe real slowly, so when he comes back he'd see the light (mine, not the reaper's) and I'd be there with gas to share if he needed it. Of course, this thought comes to me while I'm sitting comfortably on my couch, not in the situation that I know little about. So, no judgments, just what-if-ing.

Zach I know you are just speculating but I took 3 stages on the way in and my buddy only had 2. He also had 108's vs my 120's. We dropped stages on the way in. There was no way he would have been able to wait me out. He said that when he looked at his gauges just prior to the incident he was suprised to see he was already at turn pressure. This is why I took 3 stages so I could push this tunnel. We were not gas matched by far. We were each doing a solo dive that happened to start at the same time. He did all he could except follow me into a zero viz passage that he had never been in and would not have had a line to follow to even 1/2 way know which way to go. He had a hard decision to make. He told me stayed as long as he could. He even went and got his stage and came back. I posted this to give people something to think about so that if they ever have a similar instance such as a broke line and have to go a ways to find the other end they will have hopefully thought about what they would do after reading this.

I see. Please don't think I'm meaning to criticize anyone involved, just trying to think about best moves, and what can be talked about before dives. Thanks for the added info. And again, I'm glad everyone is ok.

I didn't take it as criticism Zach.

Thanks for posting.Seems like experienced and clear thinking.

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Originally Posted by bamafan

The stages were dropped along the main line. I just had 120's with me. Hopefully though I will be needing a stage in there soon.

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Sorry for the mistake I read it wrong. So, what would have been the best thing for Zorro to do? 1) Stay until he could not stay any longer, put a cookie on the like saying, "I am out," with a backup light attached for you to see? 2) Deploy a reel and try to find you until "absolute must leave gas pressure" is reached? 3) Run a reel and tie into the line and leave? Other suggestions?

I am glad that all went well.

Ok, at first I didn't get the part were the line was cut when you were still swimming with it. Doesn't that mean that the line was somewhat slack when you did the first tie-off? Do you think you would have noticed the cut, if you had pulled on the line harder at the first tie-off?

I heard a buddy describe getting to the end of the line, deploying a reel to continue and the previously laid line endpoint just crumbled away. This guy had to repair the end of the line before tying into it but if he had been tied into it and already moving the connection might have been disrupted. Has that ever happened to anyone following this thread? I feel like it would leave you in the same situation.. A gap between the new line and old line.


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Originally Posted by Garth

I heard a buddy describe getting to the end of the line, deploying a reel to continue and the previously laid line endpoint just crumbled away. This guy had to repair the end of the line before tying into it but if he had been tied into it and already moving the connection might have been disrupted. Has that ever happened to anyone following this thread? I feel like it would leave you in the same situation.. A gap between the new line and old line.


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I have had old twisted #18 that I tied into break. This puts all the line in doubt, which makes you replace old line, and resurvey it.

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Originally Posted by Garth

I heard a buddy describe getting to the end of the line, deploying a reel to continue and the previously laid line endpoint just crumbled away. This guy had to repair the end of the line before tying into it but if he had been tied into it and already moving the connection might have been disrupted. Has that ever happened to anyone following this thread? I feel like it would leave you in the same situation.. A gap between the new line and old line.


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If you tie in properly, and the tie-off crumbles, you will still have a continuous line. Check the last tie-off first. If it was done right, there should be a knot, not just a wrap. If you do a standard tie off, like you do on a jump, the tie point can crumble, but the slip knot won't go past the knot in the original line. Most tie-offs at the end of the line have the loose end tied around the line before the wrap, leaving a good solid loop. I usually tie into the loop, so there is no way the line can separate.

In many offbeaten path caves I've seen line runs in parallel one survey one safety I guess. Perhaps make sense for caves under exploration.

I was wondering if people used an arrow then tied into the arrow.
I like the idea of tying into the loop.


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Having your line on the reel with a loop on the end already makes it really quick to switch. And leaving a loop when you tie off at the end makes it quick to pick back up when you come back to continue.

There are caves you can tie off to something seemingly solid, which then disintegrates or the line cuts right through when tensioned. Or you swim around with stuff breaking off in your hand. That's when it helps to have plenty of stakes.

We rigged our rope to a jug handle to drop a pit once and when someone got their full weight on it the rope broke through a crust we thought was solid and sliced through about a foot of mud underneath, dropping the person on rope a couple of feet rather suddenly. That was a drawer changer.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

I have had old twisted #18 that I tied into break. This puts all the line in doubt, which makes you replace old line, and resurvey it.

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I would also add that pulling the line as tight as piano wire when you are laying it (like my instructor taught me) is wrong, in my opinion. Not only does it mean the line is more likely to break subsequently, but if/when it does, or someone cuts it by accident (both have happened to me), there will be a longer gap as the two ends recoil away from each other. The length of that gap directly determines the amount of psychological stress you will feel if you are unlucky enough to be on the wrong side of it.

I am not advocating clouds of line floating around in the passage, just less tension during the original line placement. It gives you more options to work with the line subsequently.

Andy

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Originally Posted by apitkin

I would also add that pulling the line as tight as piano wire when you are laying it (like my instructor taught me) is wrong, in my opinion. Not only does it mean the line is more likely to break subsequently, but if/when it does, or someone cuts it by accident (both have happened to me), there will be a longer gap as the two ends recoil away from each other. The length of that gap directly determines the amount of psychological stress you will feel if you are unlucky enough to be on the wrong side of it.

I am not advocating clouds of line floating around in the passage, just less tension during the original line placement. It gives you more options to work with the line subsequently.

Andy

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Sheck Exley taught to leave a little slack in the line, so it could be pulled out of line traps.. He was also against using too many wraps, because if the tie-off point broke, there would be a bunch of loose line.

This is a very good read.
Thanks to Bama and everyone who has contributed to this thread.
I'm very thankful everyone made it out safe.
As with any dive that goes bad the lessons to be learned are priceless.
When we stop learning and growing we can become complacent.

Rational clear, solid mental decision making in the middle of this situation brought the best possible conclusion.
Being able to function to this level when things go bad is a challenge some will never face and others do it everyday.
I'm thankful for the reminder of the mental attitude and awareness to dive at this level.

JCG

Wish more people would post their stories that I have heard... there are good lessons and reminders that happen to those who are pushing the boundaries and those who only fly on the gold lines.

Thanks for posting. Very good info in this thread. Got me thinking for sure.

Great thread!!!

Great thread; appreciate the sharing of the story and the experienced commentary to learn more. I appreciate the read of the cave conditions and sound decisionmaking that led to a successful end to the story. Thanks again for sharing this experience.

JB

Thanks for sharing as well as those that have weighed in. It's given me a good amount to ponder.

That was a very good post. The only thing I would add to Bamafan is that when you have a premonition you act on it. You said you felt the slack in the line. At that point I feel you should have turned your dive and investigated. I bet if this were to happen again you would do just that.
Sure am happy all turned out well. There are several lessons to be learned on your post.

Thanks for posting this, Eric/Bamafan. I learned a lot reading it, both from the original post and from people's expert tips chimed in. 'Very glad you are safe.