Noob questions re: Peacock

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12-12-2005 08:47 AM
brianstclair

Noob questions re: Peacock

I did my first intro dive at Peacock I yesterday. We went in to the right, not through the breakdown to the left, but down the vertical crack. Made it in to 700' to where the line arrows change direction on the mainline.

Two quick questions. First, what exit are the line arrows pointing to when they switch directions? Olsen? Second, if we continue down the mainline towards that exit, is there a change in the current? In other words, if we penetrated further and then turned to return to Peacock I, would we be heading into the current for a little ways? Hope that was clear, and thanks in advance.

Also, I'd be curious to hear from people who dive Peacock frequently and who were there yesterday what you thought of the visibility. I thought it was great, personally, but I don't have any experience in that system and was curious how much it varies there. Thanks again.

Brian
12-12-2005 09:17 AM
Jay

Re: Noob questions re: Peacock

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianstclair

Two quick questions. First, what exit are the line arrows pointing to when they switch directions? Olsen?

700' ? Pothole is at 250 If I remember correctly.

Second, if we continue down the mainline towards that exit, is there a change in the current? In other words, if we penetrated further and then turned to return to Peacock I, would we be heading into the current for a little ways? Hope that was clear, and thanks in advance.

Generally you will not feel any significant change in the flow.

Brian
12-12-2005 09:28 AM
Rich

Re: Noob questions re: Peacock

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianstclair

I did my first intro dive at Peacock I yesterday. We went in to the right, not through the breakdown to the left, but down the vertical crack. Made it in to 700' to where the line arrows change direction on the mainline.

Two quick questions. First, what exit are the line arrows pointing to when they switch directions? Olsen? Second, if we continue down the mainline towards that exit, is there a change in the current? In other words, if we penetrated further and then turned to return to Peacock I, would we be heading into the current for a little ways? Hope that was clear, and thanks in advance.

Also, I'd be curious to hear from people who dive Peacock frequently and who were there yesterday what you thought of the visibility. I thought it was great, personally, but I don't have any experience in that system and was curious how much it varies there. Thanks again.

Brian

Hiya Brian!!

The back to back arrows are at the jump to the Nicholson tunnel and the "other" exit they point to is Olsen sink.

There is an exit to Pothole which used to be a T (which I believe Jay is referring to above) but it's no longer a T and actually about a two foot jump. The reason the back to back arrows are where they are is to indicate the halfway point between exits on a continuous guideline.

There is a change in flow if you pass Olsen (it has both an upstream and downstream side, but not until you actually get there is it noticeable, and Peacock in general is either no or low flow. You probably noticed it was a just a little bit easier to swim out than in....so in answer to your second question, No.

Hope all this helps and hope to see you down at the shop again soon :)

Safe diving,

Rich
12-12-2005 09:35 AM

The way they used to be is this: Distance markers counted up to 250', then counted back down as you reached Pothole (which is 500' from the entrance). Then they counted back up to 450', and back down as you reached Olson (which is 900' from Pothole).

They must have changed this, if there is an arrow on the Main Tunnel labeled 700"

Olson and Pothole are inline sinks (not springs), so the flow doesn't change direction in this section of the cave.

Russell
12-12-2005 09:57 AM
Rich

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sludge

The way they used to be is this: Distance markers counted up to 250', then counted back down as you reached Pothole (which is 500' from the entrance). Then they counted back up to 450', and back down as you reached Olson (which is 900' from Pothole).

They must have changed this, if there is an arrow on the Main Tunnel labeled 700"

Olson and Pothole are inline sinks (not springs), so the flow doesn't change direction in this section of the cave.

Russell

The exit to Pothole is still there, it's just not T'd into the gold line anymore, that's why the back to back are at 700' indicating equal distance between Olsen Sink and Peacock 1.

While Olsen is an inline sink, remember that the water enters in one side (coming from the Challenge/Peanut Restriction area - the upstream side) and exits the other side (heading to Peacock 1 - the downstream side). So if you swim from Olsen up to Challenge, you're swimming upstream, and if you swim towards Peacock 1, you're swimming downstream. Hope this explains it better than my last post :-)

Safe diving,

Rich
12-12-2005 09:59 AM
Jason B.

Re: Noob questions re: Peacock

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

There is an exit to Pothole which used to be a T (which I believe Jay is referring to above) but it's no longer a T and actually about a two foot jump.

Has this recently been changed (like in the past two weeks)?
There was no gap there 2 weeks ago (or was my line referencing so bad that I did a gap and didn't notice?). The p1 line just continued towards Olsen. There was a line that shoots straight up to Pothole (making a 'T' I guess).
12-12-2005 10:14 AM
Rich

Re: Noob questions re: Peacock

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason B.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

There is an exit to Pothole which used to be a T (which I believe Jay is referring to above) but it's no longer a T and actually about a two foot jump.

Has this recently been changed (like in the past two weeks)?
There was no gap there 2 weeks ago (or was my line referencing so bad that I did a gap and didn't notice?). The p1 line just continued towards Olsen. There was a line that shoots straight up to Pothole (making a 'T' I guess).

There is no gap!! The mainline is continuous to Olsen, the line that shoots straight up to Pothole is about a 2 ft jump to the right of the mainline, right by the corner there.

Safe diving,

Rich
12-12-2005 10:20 AM
Jason B.

Rich, I just re-read your original post, somehow I missed the words written in bold. :oops:
Thanks for clearing up the vis! :wink:
12-12-2005 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

The exit to Pothole is still there, it's just not T'd into the gold line anymore, that's why the back to back are at 700' indicating equal distance between Olsen Sink and Peacock 1.

Thanks for straightening me out on that. I guess I'm so familiar with the system now I haven't paid attention to what's written on the arrows in a long time.

Several years ago, on the cover of UWS was a picture of the back-to-back 450' arrows.

Russell
12-12-2005 11:19 AM
brianstclair

Thanks a lot guys. Exactly what I was looking for. Can't wait to get back in there - I feel like I could spend five years just getting to know that little 700' stretch of cave. And man... awesome.

Rich, if I wasn't going on a cruise next weekend (stupid cruise is interfering with my cave diving...) I'd see you then, but it'll probably be a few weeks. Nice meeting you - I'm sure I'll see you around, and thanks for the response. Incidentally, we met another nice dude over at the other CE shop who said he knew you. His name was Rob, and apparently he's the scooter racing champion of the world? I'm hoping to get a picture with him and the trophy next time we're over there...

Thanks again, all. Much appreciated.

Brian
12-12-2005 11:38 AM
Rich

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianstclair

His name was Rob, and apparently he's the scooter racing champion of the world?

Brian

LOL....that he is!!

Kinda weird, since he doesn't even own a scooter, I guess being in good with the boss helps though.... ;-)

Safe diving,

Rich
12-12-2005 12:27 PM
Rob_M

It's good to know people ::joy
12-12-2005 03:01 PM
jammer

I was there yesterday diving the Peacock system and the vis was a little mucked up to say the least I would give it a 25ft at best vis. But there was at least 5 or 6 classes going on in there. The vis was alot worse on the Orange grove to challenge side than it was in the P1 side, but the vis. in there can be alot better if you get in before alot of trafic gets in there.

So I guess what I am trying to say is that you saw it on the downside as far as the vis goes it has and does look better when there is not so many teams in there.
12-12-2005 07:28 PM
Walter Pickel

Anyone want to make a conditions report?

http://www.tampadiving.com/sections/...stem.asp?ID=67
12-12-2005 07:51 PM
thomas.fenoseff

Visibility in Peacock/Orange Grove

I dove Orange Grove and Peacock 1 on Sunday with Jammer and Jean. Vis was not as good as it normally is in either cave, but not bad considering the number of people in the cave.

Peacock vis probably would have been better if someone hadn't decided to check out the cavern at Pothole :lol:
12-12-2005 07:59 PM
jammer

Re: Visibility in Peacock/Orange Grove

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas.fenoseff

I dove Orange Grove and Peacock 1 on Sunday with Jammer and Jean. Vis was not as good as it normally is in either cave, but not bad considering the number of people in the cave.

Peacock vis probably would have been better if someone hadn't decided to check out the cavern at Pothole :lol:

You call that a cavern? You are not going to have any problem with side mount. :-D
12-13-2005 07:07 AM
brianstclair

Thanks Tom and jammer. I need to get out there mid-week one of these weeks.

Brian
12-13-2005 07:19 AM
Jim Wyatt

My question is:

Why do we not have back to back arrows indicating equidistant exits between Pothole and Peacock I ?

Pot hole is not a normal exit and entry point, but it can be an emergency exit point and I think it should be marked as such.

Anyone know why it is configured this way?
12-13-2005 10:11 AM
Walter Pickel

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

My question is:

Why do we not have back to back arrows indicating equidistant exits between Pothole and Peacock I ?

Pot hole is not a normal exit and entry point, but it can be an emergency exit point and I think it should be marked as such.

Anyone know why it is configured this way?

Hopefully someone from the line committee can answer that one...
12-13-2005 11:34 AM
jammer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

My question is:

Why do we not have back to back arrows indicating equidistant exits between Pothole and Peacock I ?

Pot hole is not a normal exit and entry point, but it can be an emergency exit point and I think it should be marked as such.

Anyone know why it is configured this way?

Yeap the line commitee should be able to answer that. When I took my intro course it was that way and it stumped me when I seen they were gone for the 1st time. I asked the NACD pres. what was up and he said they had no control over the line placement there. But while the line commitee addresses that question they need to also give some attention to the gold line where it goes through the lips into the peanut tunnel a couple more teams of students doing lights out on line drill might wear it in two.
12-13-2005 12:18 PM

To open up another can of worms:

When I was in training I had an idea. You should be able to look at the line and tell where the usual exit was, but also where an emergency exit was. For example, if you were 300' in the main tunnel at Peacock, there could be a large arrow pointing to Peacock with 300 on it, and a much smaller arrow pointing to Pothole with 200 on it.

My instructor said, "Good try." But that would be far too complicated to get everyone to agree on procedures. For example, 1,000 feet in I would have a large 1000 arrow pointing to Peacock, and a small 400 arrow pointing to Olson. But some would add a third small 500 arrow pointing to Pothole. Now it really gets complicated.

His answer: leave things as they are, and study the Peacock map in your spare time. Then you'll always know where you are. Maybe that's why he's the instructor.

Russell
12-13-2005 04:39 PM
Jim Wyatt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sludge

leave things as they are, and study the Peacock map in your spare time. Then you'll always know where you are. Maybe that's why he's the instructor.

Russell

Heh--sort of like "Thats the way we have always done it, so why change?" But, that is not the way is was always done.

Sludge--> Surely you are kidding that he answered that way.

I am having dinner with a member of the line committe tonight, so I'll ask him.
12-13-2005 05:56 PM
Kelly Jessop

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeepSea

Hopefully someone from the line committee can answer that one...

Actually you want to ask the question of the Springs Cave Management Team-this is a group composed of DEP and cave diving officials. The rationale for no longer having line arrows pointing toward Pothole is because Pothole is intended for emergency egress only,and is marked that way with white line.
12-13-2005 09:49 PM
jammer

So does that mean we can enter in any of the other sinks Kelly? Such as Olsen or is it still just an Emergency exit also?
12-14-2005 03:53 AM
Kelly Jessop

Quote:

Originally Posted by jammer

So does that mean we can enter in any of the other sinks Kelly? Such as Olsen or is it still just an Emergency exit also?

Olsen is still emergency egress. This is conditional on approval by a biologist,if they should ever approve steps to the water for erosion control.
12-14-2005 06:37 AM
Jim Wyatt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeepSea

Hopefully someone from the line committee can answer that one...

The rationale for no longer having line arrows pointing toward Pothole is because Pothole is intended for emergency egress only,and is marked that way with white line.

The point I am trying to make is that with standard line marking protocol we have back-to-back arrows in between exits to mark the midway point between these exits in most places here in North Florida.

This line marking protocol was designed so that divers may know in the event of an emergency where the nearest exit is. If a team passes back-to-back arrows and a couple of minutes later has a need for an emergency exit a trained team will know where the nearest exit is. Under the current line marking that same team will NOT know where the actual nearest exit is. I stop short of calling this lack of back-to-back markers irresponsible until I learn more of the reasoning for their absence.

Certainly we all know and understand that Pothole is not a normal entrance/exit point due to conservation reasons. (Even back in the days when it was on private property we never used it as an entrance or exit.) However the lack of back-to-back arrows on that line in between Peacock I and Pothole denies divers potentially lifesaving information as they are swimming down that line during an emergency.

The gapped line going up at Pothole with a single line arrow does mark the exit. But does not provide the team that is for instance 100 feet from it any information.

In order to properly mark the midway point between these two exits should there not be back-to-back arrows should be replaced mid way between Pothole and Peacock I :?:

Last night at dinner with my friend on the line committee I was informed that the State of Florida officials have requested that the back-to-back arrows not be placed as they are trying to prevent divers from using Pothole as an exit point.

I am failing then to understand why then we have back-to-back arrows marking the midway point between Peacock I & Olsen if I use the same reasoning as to why there is not a set of arrows on the former. Olsen too is not an exit or an entrance. :?:

Can someone help me understand the logic that I am clearly failing to understand.
12-14-2005 06:55 AM
Kelly Jessop

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

The point I am trying to make is that with standard line marking protocol .

I think one problem there is no standard line marking protocols. There is what we envision as what "textbook" line markings should be, but in reality there are unique markings in many systems in many places in North America. I think one of the goals of the SCMT is to standardize it all among the state parks with one set of protocols. PM me if you have further questions.
12-14-2005 07:12 AM
Jim Wyatt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

PM me if you have further questions.

PM sent
12-14-2005 10:19 AM
Jerry

The main difference between Pothole and Olsen is that in order to exit via Pothole you have to jump to that line; Olsen, on the other hand, is configured such that it forces you to almost surface in the sink whether it is an emergency or you are just passing through. I have only done it once but I seem to recall Pothole being a fairly tight, silt ascent--not necessarily a good choice especially since better choices are so close.

Jerry
12-14-2005 10:38 AM
Jason B.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry

The main difference between Pothole and Olsen is that in order to exit via Pothole you have to jump to that line; Olsen, on the other hand, is configured such that it forces you to almost surface in the sink whether it is an emergency or you are just passing through. I have only done it once but I seem to recall Pothole being a fairly tight, silt ascent--not necessarily a good choice especially since better choices are so close.

Jerry

Thanks for the insight.
I can kinda see the logic in that.