Gainesville Area - Friend looking to get OW cert with an eye on Full Cave

Hello Forum,

Been a while since I've posted here. I finally made my way back to the Yucatan for some diving after a 2 1/2 years absence from the overhead environs. Glad I decided to do a refresher day. My skills were a tad rusty to say the least. Never again will I let so much time go by. ;-)

Anyway...I'm writing because a great friend was in MX with me and seems absolutely convinced that we wants to get his OW cert and eventually venture into the FL caves. Luckily, he lives in Gainesville and has whole new world right outside his front door.

My question is...are there any good instructors down there who could begin a diver's OW training with an eye on eventually getting a cave cert? What I'm thinking is a non-PADI class where buoyancy and horizontal trim are an extreme focus from the very beginning? Perhaps learning the harness/backplate with a single tank from outset as well, so the transition to doubles is more seamless?

Any advice from the N. Fl. folks would be immensely appreciated!

Thanks so much,

Andrew

My wife took Rec 1 from Mer on here and that course covers basic rescue skills, nitrox (and tables to use it), standard HOG gear configuration, gas planning (enough gas to direct ascend, enough gas to return to a safe exit, all while ensuring you have gas for 2 divers to do minimum decompression, etc), shooting SMB from depth, as well as the basic kicks (frog/flutter/back kick/helicopter turn). Essentially all the skills except doubles and a can light which are taught in fundies are taught in Rec 1 (obviously not expecting the diver to be at a tech pass level by the end of Rec 1). The last time I talked to Mer she was getting ready for another Rec 1 course in the near future, so it might be worth a PM.

It's a bit longer than most OW courses, but the course was far superior to the OW course I took through NAUI years ago.
http://www.globalunderwaterexplorers...1-nitrox-diver

Lots of GUE options in that area if he wants to stay in backmount. If he's looking at sidemount I think Harry Averill would be a great option. He'll teach in backmount no problem, but if sidemount is something he's interested in, I think Harry will teach him in sidemount from the get go.

http://cavediverharry.com/

Get with Kristi at CCDS. 386-454-4444. She'll teach it.

Fantastic! Thanks for the advice everyone. I will read up on each of these instructors and spread the word. Hoping to visit said friend in February and get into some of these FL caves for the first time myself!

If he lives in Gainesville I would suggest Lloyd Bailey. He has taught most of the instructors in full cave. He also teaches OW and has a hugh shop in Gainesville. Lloyd Bailey Scuba.

DarkSloss, I just sent you a private message, let me know if you don't get it.

second recommendation for mer. she's good people

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Originally Posted by shellmoundal

If he lives in Gainesville I would suggest Lloyd Bailey. He has taught most of the instructors in full cave. He also teaches OW and has a hugh shop in Gainesville. Lloyd Bailey Scuba.

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Lloyd was my OW instructor. He does not recommend bp/w for OW students. He recommends jacket BC for OW and even through intro cave, with switching to a bp/w when you go to doubles. Everyone has their personal preference and I'm sure many people on here would recommend Lloyd, but I don't think this course would match the OP's desired course.

I would recommend getting OW certified in any configuration and gather experience first, before thinking about technical or overhead diving. A minimum of 100 dives post OW certification is what I would deem acceptable and/or sensible.

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Kristi from Cave Country Dive Shop is an excellent choice.

Can't go wrong with any of the instructors already listed. I don't know if he teaches OW much anymore but my Cave instructor is Georges Gawinowski at WDT dive in High Springs @ 20 miles from Gainesville. If I recall correctly he wrote the IANTD essentials course or had a big influence on it. He would be worth giving a call though! He is also a IANTD & NSS/CDS Cave IT for when your buddy reaches the cave levels.

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

I would recommend getting OW certified in any configuration and gather experience first, before thinking about technical or overhead diving. A minimum of 100 dives post OW certification is what I would deem acceptable and/or sensible.

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I agree 100%!

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Originally Posted by DarkSloss

Hello Forum,

Been a while since I've posted here. I finally made my way back to the Yucatan for some diving after a 2 1/2 years absence from the overhead environs. Glad I decided to do a refresher day. My skills were a tad rusty to say the least. Never again will I let so much time go by. ;-)

Anyway...I'm writing because a great friend was in MX with me and seems absolutely convinced that we wants to get his OW cert and eventually venture into the FL caves. Luckily, he lives in Gainesville and has whole new world right outside his front door.

My question is...are there any good instructors down there who could begin a diver's OW training with an eye on eventually getting a cave cert? What I'm thinking is a non-PADI class where buoyancy and horizontal trim are an extreme focus from the very beginning? Perhaps learning the harness/backplate with a single tank from outset as well, so the transition to doubles is more seamless?

Any advice from the N. Fl. folks would be immensely appreciated!

Thanks so much,

Andrew

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If the student was truly motivated and possesses good watermanship skills (top notch swimmer), it is possible to start from the beginning with that goal in mind. I recommend talking to Edd at http://www.caveadventurers.com/local.../training.html. He has already conducted an open water class (2011) for those specifically interested in overhead diving. See http://www.psai.com/news/america-new...demount-course. PSAI allows even basic courses to be more customized towards specific goals.

Don't think Edd teaches in backmount though, could be wrong, but if he is wanting to go to doubles it would be better to be trained by someone who dives backmount regularly

Mer is personable, patient, and has a passion for diving in general, and cave diving in specific. I would send a friend to her for certification without reservation.

+1 for Lloyd Bailey, at least have your friend stop by his shop, it's worth a visit!

I like Edd as much as anyone, and hope to take a class from him myself someday, but... I really would not recommend someone who lives in Gainesville drive hours and cross a time zone for instruction when there are plenty of great instructors moments from his/her front door. It's not difficult to figure out which OW instructors are going to teach with regards to proper buoyancy, trim, and propulsion from the get-go.

it's not the drive that would turn me away from Edd's, it's the fact that he hasn't dove doubles in a decade, and while generic diving is diving, he hasn't dove backmount in far too long, and I'm not sure how long it has been since he's taught OW, but I bet it's been a good bit. I'd rather take the recreational classes from someone who is regularly teaching those classes and also teaches cave/technical classes. There's plenty of those local and if he decides sidemount is better than doubles for technical diving, then drive out to CA for the weekend.

Edd nor Michael at CA will teach OW class and they do NOT dive in any back mount configuration single or doubles, they do everything in sidemount.

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Originally Posted by Choda

Edd nor Michael at CA will teach OW class and they do NOT dive in any back mount configuration single or doubles, they do everything in sidemount.

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I believe PSAI permits Open Water to be taught in sidemount. I believe Edd taught an Open Water S/M course this past July of August...

OW Sidemount yes, but that is usually for divers that are already certified wanting to go to Sidemount, very different. Still goes against the point that Andrew said transition to doubles, so not sure why Edd keeps coming up....

also, unless I missed my guess, edd isn't in the gainesville area

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Originally Posted by tbone1004

OW Sidemount yes, but that is usually for divers that are already certified wanting to go to Sidemount, very different. Still goes against the point that Andrew said transition to doubles, so not sure why Edd keeps coming up....

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NO, SM is NOT limited to divers already certified, hence my link in previous post. You can do your very first pool session in SM. A principal advantage of SM for open water students is that these beginning divers have breathing gas redundancy from the very start (pair of 40's), better than a super-sized spare air. Gas management skill also requires that they are practiced in moving from mouthpiece to mouthpiece and therefore are not likely to be rattled by a real life air-share (where your mouthpiece is ripped from your face by another less-skilled OW diver). Many that are ultimately interested in overhead training MAY want to go this route.

M. Turek can/will do these classes for CA. It may be possible to get Edd to do this as well.

As for SM versus BM, diving SM is a lot like diving dry, once you've done it, there is NO going back.

you didn't listen, the OW Sidemount Diver class offered at Cave Adventurers is for those already certified to dive, but to get them in Sidemount. I'm fully aware that OW Sidemount classes exist for new divers, but why Edd got brought up in the first place when the OP mentioned doubles still confuses me. From what I've heard from CA, they won't do Open Water classes for new divers, could be wrong, Michal may do it but through Emerald Coast, but the OP is in Gainesville, so he has a 3+ hour drive to get to Edd's, has the added expense of hotel, then has the hour drive to Vortex to be trained in sidemount which he isn't interested in. Or, he can stay in Gainesville where he has a 40 minute drive to Ginnie which is an infinitely better training location, and take the course with instructors that are just as good and sleep in his own bed instead of the shitty hotels in Marianna... Going there just doesn't make sense, no matter how good of an instructor those two are, it's completely idiotic to even consider it. What you are basically saying is that the instructors local to him, the center of Cave Country, aren't worth taking an open water class, that backmount is not even worth considering even though it is still the standard configuration outside of the last 3-4 years in cave diving, and that the only instructor in Florida worth taking a class from is Edd. If that isn't Kool-Aid drinking I don't know what is, and the best part is that Edd didn't even mix it. Hell, if the OP called Edd and asked him, he'd probably say what I said above, you want to make transition to DOUBLES not sidemount, well I don't agree with you, but if you're already in Gainesville, just call any of the instructors that are 5 minutes from your front door, they'll be just fine, and if you want to learn sidemount, then call me. I'd agree with you guys 100% if the OP said sidemount, but he said doubles, and as soon as backmount is mentioned, Edd gets struck off the list.

BS on the no going back. Sidemount has a lot of disadvantages for specific diving conditions, it is a great tool for most diving, but there will ALWAYS be circumstances where backmount is better, and there is literally no denying it. The circumstances are VERY limited, and generally not relevant on this forum since it is cave specific but they do exist. Long hikes where you can't wheel the tanks in, shore diving *the width is the part that kills SM here, lower CoG is nice, but the extra width in the waves sucks*, many boat diving scenarios if the boat doesn't have wide access platforms for going in and out with tanks on or having them handed in due to surf, I don't like it for photography or videography because of the gas switching and wider profile, etc etc. Same with diving wet. For cave diving, sidemount almost always, dry almost always, but not as a rule.

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Originally Posted by tbone1004

you didn't listen, the OW Sidemount Diver class offered at Cave Adventurers is for those already certified to dive, but to get them in Sidemount. I'm fully aware that OW Sidemount classes exist for new divers, but why Edd got brought up in the first place when the OP mentioned doubles still confuses me. From what I've heard from CA, they won't do Open Water classes for new divers, could be wrong, Michal may do it but through Emerald Coast, but the OP is in Gainesville, so he has a 3+ hour drive to get to Edd's, has the added expense of hotel, then has the hour drive to Vortex to be trained in sidemount which he isn't interested in. Or, he can stay in Gainesville where he has a 40 minute drive to Ginnie which is an infinitely better training location, and take the course with instructors that are just as good and sleep in his own bed instead of the shitty hotels in Marianna... Going there just doesn't make sense, no matter how good of an instructor those two are, it's completely idiotic to even consider it. What you are basically saying is that the instructors local to him, the center of Cave Country, aren't worth taking an open water class, that backmount is not even worth considering even though it is still the standard configuration outside of the last 3-4 years in cave diving, and that the only instructor in Florida worth taking a class from is Edd. If that isn't Kool-Aid drinking I don't know what is, and the best part is that Edd didn't even mix it. Hell, if the OP called Edd and asked him, he'd probably say what I said above, you want to make transition to DOUBLES not sidemount, well I don't agree with you, but if you're already in Gainesville, just call any of the instructors that are 5 minutes from your front door, they'll be just fine, and if you want to learn sidemount, then call me. I'd agree with you guys 100% if the OP said sidemount, but he said doubles, and as soon as backmount is mentioned, Edd gets struck off the list.

BS on the no going back. Sidemount has a lot of disadvantages for specific diving conditions, it is a great tool for most diving, but there will ALWAYS be circumstances where backmount is better, and there is literally no denying it. The circumstances are VERY limited, and generally not relevant on this forum since it is cave specific but they do exist. Long hikes where you can't wheel the tanks in, shore diving *the width is the part that kills SM here, lower CoG is nice, but the extra width in the waves sucks*, many boat diving scenarios if the boat doesn't have wide access platforms for going in and out with tanks on or having them handed in due to surf, I don't like it for photography or videography because of the gas switching and wider profile, etc etc. Same with diving wet. For cave diving, sidemount almost always, dry almost always, but not as a rule.

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A hilarious, if angry, rant.

A guy interested in OW and then cave solicits instructor recommendations. Like everyone else that posted here, I made my recommendation. That's all. As for the SM and BM business, YOU brought it up when recommending Harry for either (YOUR post #3).

Somebody driving 3+ hours for training being "idiotic", is really kinda over the top. You know, some folks from South Korea and Hong Kong (China) were willing to fly 30+ hours, to get Cave training at the Diver and Instructor levels, from Edd. Folks have come from Europe for cave training, in fact, Edd has traveled to Europe to conduct training (proving that buck$ can bring Edd to you). Amazing what people are willing to do to find excellence.

As for Ginnie being being an "infinitely better training location", again over the top. I like Ginnie and have done training there as well as Little River, Madison Blue and others in the area. The point is, you need the others. Most agencies require at least 3 different system to do full cave training. That means a lot of driving around!

I now conduct all of my training in Marianna. Here's why: At Mill Pond you have access to JB, Twin, and HITW. No 2 hour drives to another system. AND fills are never more than 15 minutes away. Yeah, I've stayed at America's Finest and the Executive Inn and they are more than okay for their price (a good value). Please list for me those 5-Star motel chains next to Ginnie that apparently only YOU know about (and are not available in Marianna).

+4 (I think we're at 4) for Mer.

http://www.wetrocksdiving.com/

Are you guys serious in recommending open water training in Marianna, this is a joke, right?

Thanks Oliver, that's the point, guy wants to get certified, not get cave certified, so yeah, driving 3+ hours to Marianna for open water training when there are a boat load of good instructors right down the road from the guy is completely idiotic.

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Originally Posted by tbone1004

Thanks Oliver, that's the point, guy wants to get certified, not get cave certified, so yeah, driving 3+ hours to Marianna for open water training when there are a boat load of good instructors right down the road from the guy is completely idiotic.

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Diving three hours would be fine, but there is no body of water there to get OW training. The class would have to take place another hour west, in Vortex or Morrison (which is closed quite often due to bacteria and the river level).

I'd still argue against it at the OW level due to the added expense. The extra travel is going to basically double the cost of the training, if the guy wanted to be trained in sidemount or was already having to travel and spend the night in a hotel then it turns the tables, but the guy lives half an hour from Ginnie, and all of the associated instructors that work there, why complicate a very simple thing. Gainesville area instructors, there's a boat load of them, and I'd recommend Harry just because he's well versed in backmount, and likely more importantly actively training new divers which is something a lot of technical instructors don't do regularly and teaching OW infrequently can actually hurt the new divers because it is a very different teaching style.