Please select the one answer that best fits your mindset in 2014.
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Please select the one answer that best fits your mindset in 2014.
Lots of experience with tempered vis diving in the PNW before I started cave diving. (The only thing you can see is the word "Tempered" on the lens of your facemask"
None of the answers work for me. After ~700 cave dives I don't freak out in very low vis, but I'm still not happy with it.
I could think of a whole bunch of options. I decided to keep it to a limited number. Anyone is welcome to start another poll. :-) Maybe others will post missing options and it will spur that new poll.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
You know, the ramifications of one's comfort level could be quite varied. Depending on the person, being a little uneasy in low/no vis may lead to a total freakout when they unexpectedly get in low vis. Alternately, it could keep their attention up and help them be careful. From the other end, it could be the best thing in the world to have a buddy like Jason who is very comfortable in the crap who will be your best buddy. Or it could mean you are overly complacent and you could be at risk to have a bad situation bite you in the butt. I can think of a few examples of that.
As I said elsewhere, I wanted to be more comfortable in bad vis and practiced to develop that ease (by going to the bad vis on purpose, not by stirring up a nice bottom). I can't say I love the bad vis, but I'm much more comfortable in it now.
I'm with Slüdge...
(But more around an Abe Davis #)
I think we all probably went through a lights out exit during class. That *should* be the time where you internalize that you don't need vision to get out of the cave. From that point, I believe its wise to 'test the theory' in situations close to the door with more experienced divers, gradually building confidence as one moves into more and more channeling situations. Imo, being 'uncomfortable' in no vis/no lights is bad news.
I did most of my early OW diving in low viz freshwater lakes, and VERY tannic rivers, so low viz has never bothered me.
My dive buddies must be pretty comfortable with it. They keep diving with me and let me lead.:)
Me too. 20 feet of vis is a great day in a lot of lakes. I don't mind zero vis in a cave as long as my hand is on the line. However, given the option, I certainly prefer triple digit visibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
You must have really clear lakes up there. 5-10' is more like what I was used to in Louisiana, and under a foot in the rivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by MORGAN
As long as the line is moving, you are not alone. Waited on the line one time in no vis and there was a happy feeling when the line started wiggling, knew he was coming back.
The only thing that would bother me is losing your buddy and finding your way to clear vis with no sign of him. After you decide on the "got to go" pressure, you look and do everything right and finally must punt. Only to find him at deco. That is where communication on a signal for I'm gone comes in. Leave a light or personal arrows or something. A detailed "to whom it may concern" note would be nice.
I agree you should never get into that situation, but you should never be struck by lightning in a closed up house. I've done the latter.
Our lakes are pretty clear - some have reliable 40-50 foot vis, though most have 20-30 feet and some are worse. The rivers are generally clear except for just after heavy rain and of course during spring snowmelt and runoff when they're too high and fast to dive anyway. I never saw tannic water in a river until I started coming to Florida.
Lol Eric! That is funny! You aren't that bad. :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by bamafan
Low vis is disappointing when you can't see anything.
The only type that really bugs me is low vis in bigger passage where you can't see or feel a side-bottom-top. Just swimming through that soup with no point of reference is disorienting.
Or maybe tight, complex breakdown. That can be difficult to navigate with all the corners, projections, pockets and such to get snagged and caught on. If you can see anything at all it's usually fine though, just have to take your time with it.
I have a weird relationship with low vis/no vis, I imagine similar to Russell. I HATE, false, LOATHE brownouts, they are disorienting and I just don't like them. So, I clip my light off, close my eyes, and pretend it's a blackout, and will open my eyes every once in a while to see if it has cleaered. Don't mind blackouts at all, they've never bothered me. Siltouts don't freak me out, I just cope by shutting my eyes since they aren't doing anything but trying to confuse you anyway
I think I close my eyes, too. I call it "going to my zen place."Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone1004
My first 8 years of diving were in gin-clear conditions. My worst dive outside of training still gave me 100ft+ of visibility, and my training was conducted in 50+ft of visibility. Then I started river diving and zero viz became the norm. Then I did ZERO VIZ in a cave, and realized what zero viz meant. First it was (obviously) drills. Lights all went off and so did the masks. The first couple times I was nervous.....but it was because it was new. After Cavern/Intro, simulated zero-viz was no problem but I was worried about what a real-life scenario would do to my nerves. Come to find out, I was nothing more than frustrated with poor viz and frustrated+extra aware in zero viz.
The worst part for me is that I get a bit of vertigo every so often.....especially if my buddy is pulling on me. Any time I get to a tie-off or solid point and the vertigo has hit, I stop/focus/breathe for a second and then carry on. It just takes a second for it to pass if I have a fixed point of reference and makes me MUCH more comfortable and MUCH swifter on the exit.
Some how I think your zen place is determining if that silt out is composed of particles that are 0.0039mm or 0.0625mm :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl
Good vis is like a treasure for us up here!
Its the main reason Caves have taken my heart, the first time I went into OG / Peacock it totally blew my mind.
We dive up here inland lakes, quarries, and the Great Lakes with varying degree's of vis not always bad but it can change quickly.
We learned early on in some night dives in soup that either good or bad its still diving.
On a dive in Lake Huron I watched the current change and a wall of 10-15 vis at best, envelope probably 40+ feet of vis.
I simply ducked inside the wreck and enjoyed the good stuff!
When I have been in bad vis in the caves, its warm, your focus is high, line awareness, rewinding the map in your head, maintaining good trim its very relaxing.
In some little cave it can be more taxing renegotiating some turns, etc. but still relaxing.
JCG
LOL! I'm still chuckling as I type this! Har, har, har! :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
FWIW, "zero viz" is exactly that, ZERO! Some people call 2' zero. If you can see the line in your hand, that isn't zero. True zero viz is when you can't even see the glow from a 24w HID a foot away. I have seen it so bad that you can barely see the glow of a HID when it is about to touch your mask.
I've hardly ever been in true zero viz. This summer in the travertine springs, I had about 1'. It was pretty crappy, but if I held my sampling materials close to my face, I could see them. Only once during my dives did I start to get a little anxious, but I was able to just "stay calm" and it was fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Can we define "low" vis? On the line, but can see it? Can see your arm but not your hand? Can see the glow of your light, but effectively nothing else? Some people consider <30' low.
Zero vis doesn't bother me. The thought of returning through new-to-me restrictions in zero vis shortens my dives. I won't pass through two new-to-me zero vis restrictions in one dive. Not confident enough yet.
I'm not sure we can define low vis. It means different things to different people, as you say. Plus, it depends on whether it's silt, tannic water, percolation, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenwood_60
I noticed this summer that I could see my hands at arm's length because they were so pale. My black drysuit faded into the murk fairly quickly, but then I could see my hands because they were "bright."
There's also the difference between how far you can see when you shine your light versus how far away you can see someone else's light.
What does it matter how far away you can see some barely faint glow versus actually see an object. I'm sure for many people, seeing a glow is more comforting than seeing NOTHING. But what does that really mean?
Too many variables. Mostly depends on the experience of the individual. If I can see both walls of the cave, I consider that good. However, that could be anything from 3' to 50', depending on the size of the passage. To me "low viz" is when I have to stay close to the line, but not actually touch it. Even that distance varies, due to silt, and/or presence of something/someone that might make it worse without warning. Anything under 2', and I am holding the line, but anything over 1' I don't have to feel around a tieoff, so I am still quite happy. I don't care for zero, especially in a tight restriction. Too much danger of not getting my body in the right position the get back through it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenwood_60
I agree 100%, I always turn early if I know I have to negotiate a restriction in low visibility.
So, I can't say I've done a lot of this, so this is all a mental exercise. But it kind of depends on what a restriction means. Yes, in general having done something before always makes me more comfortable. But if it's a restriction where it's not big enough for me to swim through with my buddy by my side yet still big enough that I am not struggling against the rock, I might actually be quite happy. If I drop the line, there's only so far I can be off track. I *don't* want to get entangled, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
The "official" definition of restrictions:Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl
Minor restriction, not big enough for buddies to swim side by side.
Major restriction, requires gear removal.
The latter is what I was referring to.
You can have it! :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by FW
Sorry, my question was rhetorical. I agree. Maybe we need a poll "At what point do you consider it 'low vis'?" I agree with Forrest, if I can't see both walls I consider it low. Doesn't bother me. I'm a little uneasy when I can't see either wall. My one dive in Lafayette Blue was about 5' going in, and 10' going out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl
IMO, Minor restrictions are anything that doesn't require body or gear manipulation. Major if it requires wiggling, struggling, dumping your wing, moving tank or tanks. Actual removal of both tanks (all 4 points of attachment removed) makes it a No Mount restriction.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
I've never had to use it but it's there if I need it. (My name is on the other side.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizard
Excellent idea! Will add to my dive kit.
Thanks.
My biggest problem with "zero viz" is the inability to read any of my gauges. I have to really be mentally prepared to measure time internally as I address the task at hand. Rough but conservative.... singing songs in my head takes about three minutes. Being aware of my breathing rate, etc. I am always happy when I get enough visibility in the dive to check pressure...
I totally get Squirrel Girl's "Zen" comment :)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Singing songs is a huge benefit for in-head timing. It really helps calm you down because you should know exactly how long the song takes. There was a point where I had to mentally time a bunch of tasks between 3-8 minutes. I'd use different combinations of songs and could get SUPER close. In cave diving, maybe pick a pair of songs that add up to 5min. You need to know every word well and not stumble/hesitate, that's the biggest problem I had at first....and the more lyrics, the better. You want unique lyrics to not repeat, and you don't want a ton of music between lyrics. Maybe agree with a buddy: If we get lost, two songs after separation you're clear to surface without me.Quote:
Originally Posted by AB8CD
::subscribed::
I answered too soon...this is more like how I feel too (but with significantly fewer dives). Someone recently asked me why I don't like the catfish in Hole in the Wall cave in the Mill pond. I answered because they stir up all the silt. "does that make you uncomfortable?" My answer was, it did at first, but no, now it just makes it less pretty. I like seeing everything, especially in such a cool cave.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
I was amazed that turning all visual cues off (during training) was so zen - that's exactly how I described it. Even a drill I was nervous about trying, once the lights went out (for me, with a blackout mask) I was cool and focused. I never thought about actually closing my eyes if/when I find myself in a real zero vis situation. Interesting thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl
I still get vertigo in open water sometimes. Between that and seasickness on the boat, I began realizing I don't miss the pretty fish enough to deal with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by victorzamora
I noticed this in a lot of footage I've seen in siltier conditions than I've experienced. As a result, I've been trying to use more white in my gear, and experimenting now with red reflective tape. Black on black on black is the worst. Good thing we learn to find everything by feel/muscle memory, but if you have to find something on someone else, guess you just have to get real crafty about touching and tugging on everything before you find the right hose/harness/knife.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl
Good thinking...you really like that labeler. I wonder if something like this was used in the recent JB incident...would be terrible to finally get yourself out of a jam only to be unsure if your (absent) buddy got out OK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
This has been a frequently discussed item. People in an emergency situation,perceived or real,are they really going to stop and look at markers? I have talked to many instructors who lead lights out air share drills in a simulated emergency,and they have noted participants are on the line,some are verifying the exit by feel of line arrows,and some are not,but nobody looks at the multiple cookies on the lines through out the cave. The consensus is that if you want to get the attention of an individual in a scenario where there is separation from your buddy, you've searched but your gas reserves are low,then leave something on the line that is different and unique. In this case I write a note on my wet notes,and clothes pin it to the line. This is something that stands out and no longer blends in with the multiple markers that are on the line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aotus
I would agree, if the diver is in a hurry to get out. What about the very calm experienced diver that is looking for his buddy, and may actually stay and continue searching after the buddy has exited. The Accident Analysis of just such an accident is where the cookie idea came from. FWIW, I tend to leave strange things on the line, like my survey book, to be sure my buddy gets the message. We were surveying, and I got cold on that dive :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
I tend to think the cookie has saved lives because there is so much variability in how people are taught to place line arrows. You have some that are taught to place it facing the closest exit, some taught to place it facing your direction of your own exit,and some taught place it facing it in the direction of the known verifiable exit by yourself. These 3 different philosophies can result in 3 different line arrow placements at the same spot in the cave, which in an emergency can be calamitous having a line arrows conflicting with permenant line arrows existing on the line. (remember the accident at Madison where a line arrow facing the wrong direction expended time that could have been used for a safe exit.) The problem is that cookies are so plentiful on lines to be used as a personal reference or a glory marker,that frequently they are ignored. You are right a cool collected buddy that has experienced silt outs,pulse rate not being driven by adrenalin ,and knows to look out for a buddies cookie with an exit comment,will look for this. I am with you about leaving something unique on the line like a survey book, a wet note page with information,or even a 22 volume set of Encyclopedia Brittanica. :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
That might tend to pull the line down :rollguyQuote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
We'll open volume T to the chapter on trimix,that will solve that problemQuote:
Originally Posted by FW
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Good that someone's found a use for them.
I've been thinking I should put some red reflective tape on my cookies to help them stand out, and also if the tape is a triangle on one side (of center) I get some direction from them too. I'd really like some of those directional cookies from gosidemount but they're expensive. What do you make cookies out of? Maybe I can make a bunch.
The first arrows were made of polystyrene sheet, sawed on a table saw. Be careful, you could loose a finger! I think the first cookies were made from the same material. The prototype cookie Danny gave me looked the same as the early arrows. I suspect any stiff plastic sheet would work, like PVC, etc. Talk to Greenwood60, he has been making arrows, etc. with a 3D printer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aotus
One day I'm sure I'll get a 3D printer, at least in my lab if not at home. But, for now, ordering prints online is expensive, so I will stick with the old primitive method of using my hands. A table saw seems a lot easier than what I was thinking, but would have to wait until I visit family over the holidays (grad students don't pack many power tools when they move around the country). I'll keep thinking. Thanks for the tips.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
I was just about to chime in on the "I've let the cave" marker. The one time I've been in that situation I left a backup light clipped to the line, flashing. Can't miss it. Even in anything but an absolute blackout silt out, you can't miss it. It should be obvious that means that I'm concerned about my buddy, but I'm OK.
I could print some of those directional-non directional markers... but unless it's a change in form or function, I'd pass. I'm still using my printed arrows, goodman, and helmet light brackets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aotus
Consider using a band saw or a jig saw. Much safer!
Peter
I just read a really nice article about low/zero vis by Al Heck in Articles and Opinions. I liked especially that he wrote honestly about being nervous in some situations, so practiced "incrementalism" to advance in new systems. This finally pushed me to bring up something that's been bothering me for a few months...
I found the article refreshing because, from the perspective of a new car diver, I often get the impression that timid feelings, nerves, feeling anxious about what's ahead, are sort of shunned or treated as signs that cave diving is not for you. Ironic, since the other message a new diver gets is that a healthy "fear" (or instead the euphemism "respect") for the cave is important to prevent complacency. Stressing again that this is only my own experience from reading forums and blogs, I found that in searching for information that would help me to advance, I hit a wall of rather unhelpful doomsaying. Rather than, as one person's signature line says "I do dangerous things, safely", I felt like the vast majority of what I found was written by people who were trying to convince me that starting down this road was a bad idea, too dangerous, you're gonna die you idiot. Uneasy about cave diving, now that we've all told you it's a death sentence? Well now you're DEFINITELY going to die, and you're going to ruin it for the rest of us so get out of here and stop asking questions.
After turning to actual manuals, agency-produced materials and books, away from the online chatter, I found the information I needed. How to be safe, accident analyses, equipment issues, and candid descriptions of what it's like to be in a bad situation without the shaming.
Maybe as an Intro diver I'm not yet established enough to call for more open engagement with interested newbies. I've only just found the helpful, friendly side of the community a few months ago (thanks *most of*CDF!). Getting over the negativity hump, I have a lot of fun corresponding with friends and fellow divers when I can't be in the water. I wish my impression of the community wasn't tarnished at the beginning, but I'm happy I've had an opportunity to experience it better since and the information I've gained from the interactions has made me a better diver. I want to add that I understand the desire to impress upon new cave divers, or those interested, that it's a serious, dangerous hobby/sport/method of exploration, I do. But, as a relative newbie, FWIW, I think the community as a whole would benefit from putting greater emphasis on quality training when speaking with interested newbies, rather than relaying a death threat from the reaper in the cave. This would encourage more engagement with new students, which is important when someone is so new that their "silly" questions are not so easily found in the books...like, "what books?" This is not to say every diver should be encouraged to cave dive, but through limited text on a forum it is difficult to judge the quality of a diver. Rather than judge, perhaps it would be better to share wisdom and direct towards proper instruction.
Back to the topic of this thread, I think the options of the poll send a mixed message, though obviously with good intentions. There is an option to say that I am new, and still not perfectly comfortable with low/no viz. But, there's no room to say that you are an established cave diver, safe, practiced, but you get nervous sometimes (which is where the author of the article I read stands). The suggestion is that you're either a newbie that gets a little nervous but you're working on it, or you're a vet with ice in your veins (OR, you're never cave diving again). Russell added a very good note that I expect probably describes most experienced cave divers - sure, you know what to do, but who WANTS to be in zero vis!? This sort of candor humanizes the community much better than the lofty posturing and threats of impending death. I'm glad to be part of this community of human cave divers.
Someone say Singing? or Humming?Quote:
Originally Posted by victorzamora
Jeano
Zach, on your road to becoming an experienced cave diver, you will automatically find the answers to all your questions :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aotus
Now here is my opinion, just for the sake of it, and I’m sure many people won’t agree with it.
Everyone has a comfort zone and a point at which he/she will feel uneasy or possibly even downright scared. This is normal and human nature.
In cave diving your skills, perception and your comfort level will evolve over time and based on your experiences diving. This is why it's so important to dive as much as you can and to go step by step.
In my opinion it is also important to challenge yourself in a positive way, that is dive within the full range of your comfort level on a regular basis. Doing so will not only help you build a solid foundation of experience, but also increase your comfort zone, enabling you to become a more capable and safe cave diver.
As to the poll and the answers to it, I guess some people have a hard time being honest about themselves. Based on my own experience with dive buddies, I can tell you most people are not half as fearless as they claim to be, which is probably a good thing.
Of those who progressed and can now safely and fearlessly do dives that others cannot do, many seem to forget the long and winding road that brought them there.
There's not a good way to predict all the possible responses ahead of time. Some become apparent as people post. I completely urge people to post a new poll to answer different or more specific questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aotus
If I extend my arm and can't see my hand I would call that "low" vis. If you can't see your hand, one your mask, without a light shining, that is "zero" vis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenwood_60
What is this thing you call "vis"?
ROFLQuote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Price
:rollguy
Duncan, is it so bad you run a line to the car bumper?
He doesn't live in Florida. That would be one really long line :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by Wizard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizard
Hey now there is a good idea for all those divers with 1200' exploration reels that don't actually do any exploration off the line. :)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sorry, didn't see my answer. "Couldn't see crap and loved it!" " I’ve been comfortable in low vis since the get go." was the nearest answer I could honestly mark, but not true. Third day of cave training when the lights went out and we had to exit was the moment I fell in love with cave diving. So you really need a more emphatic answer for cave diving in zero vis to fit me. Add it and I'll vote.
I'm sure you know that zero vis is not always fun and games? It can be a serious and very life threatening situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by caverkevin
I've been in small passage that was easy to navigate on the way in, but got me keyholed in zero vis on the way back.
People have made grave mistakes in zero vis and paid with their lives, it's nothing to be taken lightly.
I couldn't answer the poll, because there are two different possible questions, to me. One is, can I handle reduced or zero viz to get out of a cave? The answer is yes. I did it enough times during my training (including two over 40 minute lights-out exits with unexpected gas shares) to know I can get that done.
My reaction to deliberately ENTERING a cave with reduced visibility are quite different. I don't like it. I've done two dives with viz bad enough that I couldn't see both walls of the passage, and I was very uncomfortable. One dive, I was leading. It went through several OW areas (cenotes) and I surfaced in one and told the team, "Either we switch leaders, or we turn this dive.".
My only real ongoing fear about cave diving is getting lost, and viz like that makes me very worried.
... said the gentleman whose name is an anagram of "dunce in crap."Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Price
Been there. That is true zero visibility. And you're right, most people think reduced visibility is zero visibility. Not so.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
I've done that a couple times. It's hard to miss a wetnote sheet pinned to the line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
No need to get expensive cookies or even make your own. I've been using directional nondirectional markers for years. Make a tactile mark on your cookies on one side of them. You can cut out notches along the edge or drill a hole (what I did). When I put my cookie on the line the hole is always on the exit side of the cookie. Easy to see and easy to feel in true zero visibility. And only means something to me. Everyone else just thinks I have holes in my cookies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aotus
I think for me, cutting my teeth diving quarrys and lakes in the midwest, it got me real comfy with low/zero vis situations. But we dont really know how we will react until we encounter said conditions. My first time was in the Distance tunnel. I was lead guy going in, and I know the vis went to crap behind me going through the tight sections. I made sure to slow down, and pay extra close attention to details that I knew I wouldnt be able to see on the way out. And I was right. Hand on the line, couldnt see the inside of my mask zero vis. It was after that dive I spoke to John Orlowski who told me some bad storys about things that have happened in that tunnel. He also mentioned he doesnt even go in that tunnel anymore. I'm glad I was told those stories after my virgin trip up that path.
Just returning from a recent trip to CC.
Our trip to Madison on last monday was spot on this thread.
We had planned to do the Godzilla circuit entering from Martz.
When we got there the pool was very tannic and flow almost non-existing.
We decided to enter main entrance via rabbit hole to the main line just to check conditions.
Once to the main line vis was in the 10-15 range so we figured it would clear up on in.
We proceeded to the jump still in the 10-15 range everyone was comfortable so we continued on to circuit.
In the middle approx. it cleared to about 30-40' of vis, then as we got closer to the mainline back to 10-15.
At no time was anyone ready to thumb, the line was very visible just not the majority of the cave.
I love Madison and miss seeing the normal but it was a good dive none the less.
We routinely dive in 5' - 6' of vis in the quarries and lakes here at home.
We use reels off anchor lines to navigate even OW dives as boat strikes are a real concern.
Sometimes you run into 10-15 vis and its awesome other times I have seen up to 40' but hardly ever more than that.
If we had not driven as far or travel to another system less we would have chosen to cancel the dive at Madison.
It was open and not closed so we decided to dive it.
Not trying to tell others to do the same but for us we were comfortable with the conditions.
If you are not don't do it.
JCG
I use a reel even in clear lakes, just to be sure I come back up at the dive flag, because of the boats.Quote:
Originally Posted by JCGoodwin
I agree with Sludge. I've been cave diving for 24 years and was diving side mount waaaaay before it became a "fad". I don't just dive side mount, I do side mount dives which tend to become zero vis exits because of the places I go. If it's a cave I've dove a few times, I'm ok with zero vis. If it's a cave I've not dove before, I'm "not happy" with zero vis, but training and experience get me out safely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
I hope I never get comfy or complacent in low vis.
Don't ever get complacent, but do get comfortable. If you are nervous, you are more likely to make a mistake, then that could lead to panic.Quote:
Originally Posted by roguediver
You are right. I shouldnt have used comfy.