Solo diving at Peacock

Okay.... I'm going to get thrown under the bus for asking, but....

Does anyone actually care and/or monitor solo diving at Peacock? 99% of my cave diving has been with a partner. Did a few solo's in Ginnie, but turned each dive at 1/4 instead of 1/3's. So didn't get very far.

Actually sounds relaxing and peaceful to do a solo and run up the Peanut line or do Waterhole.

And no... I'm not running out to do it. Rules are in place for a reason. Just asking if it is an enforced rule and why it is in place.

Flame suit on ;-)

You could die... wait, you will die...wait, you will die a horrible... and that's just on the drive there!

Stay safe! :)


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Two things: Thanks for the laugh ;-) Have been giving solo diving in general a lot of thought lately. Really not sure which side of the fence I come down on. See merits in both. Hoping this thread generates some thought provoking discussion.

Second: Really like your tag line. Had similar experiences ;-)

state park rule,
due to the exits all over it would make a good place as it gives emergency options but rules are rules.
I don't think its one of these rules that people ignore there, some might dive beyond the limits or whatever but almost never seen someone solo unless a lost diver or some sort of splitting off for really good reasons.

I once did a "meet you in the water" with two guys, then after I got in the water it started raining and they decided to skip the dive. (I guess they didn't spend extra to get the waterproof scuba gear.) Anyway, I finally gave up and went back to the truck, and Ranger Rick was sitting there writing me up. I guess I had a plausible excuse, so he only suspended me from diving there for thirty days.

I have been asking this question for sometime now and have been getting some of the most ridiculous answers I have ever heard. Even wrote a letter to the parks hierarchy which didn't give me a answer, just a lot of political wording.
Diving equipment and training has changed so much since I started diving that I think a review of the rules is way overdue. I was asked at REACT where I had been lately. I answered that I was diving Jackson Blue and some private caves in S. Ga. since I now dive mostly solo when I went to a rebreather.
Now don't get me wrong, I like diving with a buddy, but being retired I also like the freedom of getting out of bed and my wife ask what I was going to do today and I answer I think I will go diving.


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Originally Posted by nthewater

for asking, but....

Does anyone actually care and/or monitor solo diving at Peacock? 99% of my cave diving has been with a partner. Did a few solo's in Ginnie, but turned each dive at 1/4 instead of 1/3's. So didn't get very far.

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I would like to extend a personal invitation to solo dive at Peacock. The rangers do monitor things,and if they see something out of the ordinary they call law enforcement. If law enforcement is called and charges are filed all of us get the opportunity to buy gear that has been impounded for pennies on the dollar. The ranger logs license plate numbers,and if you are reported as diving solo,but get away before law enforcement can make it,then you may get the lifetime ban at state parks from diving (not just Peacock,and this did happen recently).

Fred asks the questions,"why can't I dive solo at state parks". State parks use the same rules we are taught in entry level scuba,which is buddy diving. This has extended to all forms of diving,and as long as organizations that support entry level scuba training teach buddy diving,then we will probably always have no solo diving. But, I have a solo diving card!!!! Good luck using that as a mechanism for changing the rules. Can the rules be changed? Possibly,but be prepared for something that can take some time-I would start with Jeff Loflin and Donald Forgione.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

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I used to enjoy going to Peacock, but not any more. The people that run it are on such ego trips. Heaven forbid someone wants to stay until the posted closing time, and the ranger is ten minutes late getting his supper.

I hold a Florida State Parks Annual Pass, but I use it at other state parks.

Their house their rules, simple as that. Doesn't really matter what the arguments are or if they make sense, their rules. In terms of picking your fights this is not worth effort.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

The people that run it are on such ego trips.

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???????????

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Heaven forbid someone wants to stay until the posted closing time, and the ranger is ten minutes late getting his supper.

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You wouldn't believe the number of times staff has had to stay well beyond closing time because of that one team that starts a 2 hour dive 30 minutes before closing. The rules that we see at state parks are due to a select few that abuse the rules,and have the staff stay overtime. I am sorry I don't share your feelings toward the ranger staff because I have seen them bend over backwards to help people,and get treated like s#@t in return. Russell you are a Florida resident,use your status as tax paying citizen to increase the budgets for staffing at the state parks,and get your wish for later closure time.

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Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo

Their house their rules, simple as that. Doesn't really matter what the arguments are or if they make sense, their rules. In terms of picking your fights this is not worth effort.

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Kind of partial to them.
1)Peacock used to be owned by the Cattlemen's Association before it became a state park,it was closed to all forms of access
2) Madison moved between county contractors,and the diving access was intermittent,and eventually stayed closed for quite awhile. State took it over,and we have consistent access
3)Lafayette was closed to diving as a county park,but once the state took it over,diving was established
4) If the state had Telford,we would be diving it now

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

You wouldn't believe the number of times staff has had to stay well beyond closing time because of that one team that starts a 2 hour dive 30 minutes before closing.

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Those people are breaking rules and should be fined. How about gearing up at 3:30 to make a dive when sundown is 8:30pm, and the ranger telling you that you can't start a dive after 3pm? Half the people working for government entities wouldn't make it thirty minutes working in the private sector.

How did Agnes connect baptizing to peacock considering nobody could follow hrrt? Was it when the rules were different?


All my interactions with park staff at peacock have been pleasant. No complaints here.
The park is well maintained and there is some monitoring

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Originally Posted by patpicos

How did Agnes connect baptizing to peacock considering nobody could follow hrrt? Was it when the rules were different?

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She did the connection dive with James Toland.

Lifetime ban from diving in any state parks? How does this work? They already broke some rule to get banned do they really believe they are going to abide by this? It isn't like our ID's are swipped to get into a state park and I have a hard time believing that anyone would actually type all the names off a sign in sheet to any computer data base. I just don't see this being enforceable.

I had a kinda late start one afternoon. I had a serious fin problem, so I wound up surfacing at Olsens (which I probably would have just turned at) and had more of a surface interval than I intended. So we were a fair bit late coming out. I felt bad. The lady was very kind. But I am much more attuned to what time I'm entering the water now.

Thank Forrest

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

The people that run it are on such ego trips.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

???????????

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Kelly, I believe you're the one always asking us to not post anything negative about the State Parks or the rangers, because it might upset them and we'd lose access.

yes, rangers at peacock do their job and monitor what is going on. i remember rick years ago when we approached him as we deposited an envelope with no cash in in and a note that we need change. sure enough we approached him to pay an hour or so later with the 20 to get some change and he pulled out our envelope with the comment that this must be ours.
anyhow, so far i had very good experience with them and was allowed to swim or snorkel or cool off minutes before they close with the promise i will be out in time and always have been.
do the rules make sense, i dont think so but they are in place and they are paid to enforce them. a lot of the gov. employees would not survive in the real world, i agree but they adopted to their world and they dont make the rules, just enforce them.
does it make a difference if you swim or dive, not for them but the rules say in the water by 4 out by 5, no matter if park closes by 8.

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Originally Posted by MK7

Kelly, I believe you're the one always asking us to not post anything negative about the State Parks or the rangers, because it might upset them and we'd lose access.

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No,never.

I've said I wouldn't post things about places we access for diving that we don't have overt permission to dive-these places aren't state parks. I am saying this because we lost one of these sites from someone talking about diving there.

If you have something negative to say about the parks,and staff,then say it. Personally I think they do a good job considering their budgets are frequently cut.

I don't understand Russell's ego trip comment.

I enjoy diving Peacock.

I do not want to jeopardize access for those that follow the rules.

I certainly do not want to be THAT guy.

Not saying anyone on here wants to be either.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Kind of partial to them.
1)Peacock used to be owned by the Cattlemen's Association before it became a state park,it was closed to all forms of access
2) Madison moved between county contractors,and the diving access was intermittent,and eventually stayed closed for quite awhile. State took it over,and we have consistent access
3)Lafayette was closed to diving as a county park,but once the state took it over,diving was established
4) If the state had Telford,we would be diving it now

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Agreed to all. Not worth the fight over one small rule

At some point in the not to distant past we were taught to respect the rules of the landowner. We should recall those days and remind everyone, even those who respect nothing that we should respect the landowner.

Who owns Peacock?

Worth mentioning that the "No Solo Diving" rule is a direct result of a solo diver death (non-medical) at Peacock. He even had a 80ft "buddy bottle" with him that was sucked dry.

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Originally Posted by adam_Hughes

Worth mentioning that the "No Solo Diving" rule is a direct result of a solo diver death (non-medical) at Peacock. He even had a 80ft "buddy bottle" with him that was sucked dry.

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Never know if he had a buddy he would have made it out safely or would it have been TWO death. The buddy system didn't work for the two that died in Madison a few years back.


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Thank you very much for everyone's feedback.

While I may think Peacock would be the perfect place to cut my teeth on solo diving, I will respect the rules. Not out of fear of losing my gear or being banned, but because I don't want my choices to impact my fellow divers.

Would like to hear people's options on solo diving. As I say... I have very mixed feelings on the subject. Looking for different perspectives to aide in refining my thoughts.


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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

I would like to extend a personal invitation to solo dive at Peacock. The rangers do monitor things,and if they see something out of the ordinary they call law enforcement. If law enforcement is called and charges are filed all of us get the opportunity to buy gear that has been impounded for pennies on the dollar. The ranger logs license plate numbers,and if you are reported as diving solo,but get away before law enforcement can make it,then you may get the lifetime ban at state parks from diving (not just Peacock,and this did happen recently).

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Law enforcement confiscating gear to be impounded for breaking a diving rule (not a law) at a state park?

Come on Kelly, let's not make stuff up. We're all adults here.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/...0258/0258.html

In the end, there is a rule at all state parks about solo diving. The state parks system manages the land and can request that you leave and not return or face possible trespass. In the end, if you get caught breaking the rule, expect to be asked to leave the premises and not return for a period of time, or longer if your attitude warrants such a request.

If you want to solo dive in a quiet cave, there are plenty of better places within a short drive of Peacock which are very nice (some even better), so why bother? :diver

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Originally Posted by SlowDiver

Never know if he had a buddy he would have made it out safely or would it have been TWO death. The buddy system didn't work for the two that died in Madison a few years back.

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A closed isolator valve had him thinking his back gas was depleted when he still had plenty. Of course a valve drill was the correct answer, but It's very likely a long hose also would have gave him the last few hundred feet he needed.

For the record, I'm a huge advocate of solo diving (90% of my dives are solo). Ide too love to dive at Peacock when ever I want.

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Originally Posted by Tegg

Law enforcement confiscating gear to be impounded for breaking a diving rule (not a law) at a state park?

Come on Kelly, let's not make stuff up

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I am not making this up. I've talked to some of the state law enforcement that provides support for the parks,and they have told me this is possible,I only have their word to go by because I am not in law enforcement. Can a person face a state park ban,yes. This happened to someone regarding manatees recently,plus the graffiti artist in the OG basin had that threat.

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so why bother

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Because there are those that believe in civil disobedience and breaking what they feel is an unjust rule. In the end the state reacts to those individuals and the net effect is that it hurts the law abiding people due to a new rule that restricts access.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Who owns Peacock?

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The state of Florida owns Peacock and they have asked us to obey their rule of no solo diving.

If we want to change that rule we should not try to change it by breaking it.

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Originally Posted by SlowDiver

Never know if he had a buddy he would have made it out safely or would it have been TWO death. The buddy system didn't work for the two that died in Madison a few years back.


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Knowing the details of this case,I think a couple stages would not have gotten this team out alive. There were a lot of elements that went wrong. Look at the case of the intro diver that died at Peacock within the last couple years,they had a buddy too,but the elements involved lead to the fatality,not just having a buddy,or lack of. I can recall quite a few incidents where having a buddy prevented an accident,so it became and undocumented incident,conversely there are some solo diving accidents. It is very difficult to lump things into categories,because each accident has its own root cause,and it was easier to identify when we had real accident analysis. Diving across all state parks require a buddy,even open water only diving sites,so it would be hard to say a solo diving accident at Peacock caused this rule. The real foundation of this rule goes back to entry level scuba training that supports the buddy system. But,for those that want to challenge this rule in state parks,in a previous post I gave you the parties to contact.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Who owns Peacock?

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The residents of Florida own the State Park, but it is *managed* by the Florida Division of Recreation and Parks. You can just go around and disagree with their management rules and do whatever the heck you want. If they close an area to boats to protect manatees, you can't just go out with your boat and run over manatees because, by golly, you're a resident of Florida and Floridians own the park.

Totally agree with Jim. Breaking rules is bad and gives cave divers a bad rep. If a rule/law, however well intended it might have been, needs changing, I'm all for changing it. But don't just ignore it. The ramifications can be very bad.

I have no dog in this fight been pleased with service at state parks.
What I do have is a loved local site that has become a RULE RIDDEN to the point of extinction.
Its a local quarry in my area where people are banned when need be, and rules are the rules.
No joke they file TRESPASSING charges if you are diving without a plan, "signed release for diving the deep side".
Another quarry with a rock crusher in it you have to sign a release and they hold your card just to go in there.

I guess my point is Rules are just a simple result of a attraction or site being open.
I have had issues with them but alas it is what it is!
I love these sites they are where I enjoy so I follow the rules.
I do LOVE solo diving but it is getting harder to find and keep sites to dive this way.

The last thing I want to do is loose a dive site over me or my regard for their rules.
I have had dialog with both of the afore mentioned properties and explained my position and they did theirs.
I still dive them both, they know I will not push them even if I do not agree.
I have been at Peacock and the last ones out very close to the deadline.
On those occasions if the Ranger is there I always make it a point to apologize and be prompt.

As a result I try to do my dives earlier, and look into other locations for later dives.
I understand both sides of the issue and wish it was different but the current status of dive sites I just try to do all I can to follow the rules.
I am always looking for more cave and sites to dive.
Sometimes it opens up new ruleless territory but with it assumed risk to landowner and myself!

JCG

I guess this discussion of rules and enforcement issues is why I am most attracted to private caves in Mexico where the Darwinian model is imposed.

I have had both wonderful and nightmarish experiences here in West Michigan with State Park employees. In both cases it may have had something in to do with me inadvertently pushing buttons (or just reminding them of someone they didn't like.)


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The irony is that state parks want to increase access and reduce rules. For example, Madison and Jug Hole had no cavern diving rules,but I contacted the park managers and worked to get that changed. There are other things that they are considering which will increase access and reduce rules. But,some rules are hard and fast across state parks and have to be changed at the higher levels,for example solo diving,and changing closing time. I am not against changing rules,because I have successfully have had good dialog with state park officials,which has had a positive result. The NFSA has asked about changing the closing times,and a lot of this tied to budget and staffing. As far as solo diving,this is one that will require a concerted effort and a lot of time to change,something I don't have the luxury doing.

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Originally Posted by adam_Hughes

Worth mentioning that the "No Solo Diving" rule is a direct result of a solo diver death (non-medical) at Peacock. He even had a 80ft "buddy bottle" with him that was sucked dry.

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getting old and don't remember that. Could you post a link to the old thread about that?

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Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

The residents of Florida own the State Park

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Exactly.

And I never said we should break the rules. I said I choose to not dive Peacock or Manatee or Madison Blue because I don't like the rules they set. Rules that, by the way, were not written by cave divers.

In case you want to know which rules I think are retarded, how about not being able to begin a dive at Peacock after 3pm, even in the summer when the park closes at 8:30? Utter stupidity. How about Manatee, which has a maximum number of divers allowed per day? What if the max number arrives at 8am and dives until noon, and then everybody goes home? Nobody else is allowed in until tomorrow. No scootering at Madison Blue? And from time to time they say no Cavern divers? I realize that with the low salaries they're not getting Einsteins, but how about giving new rangers a one-hour primer on cave diving certifications? You know, cave diving it its main draw...

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

How about Manatee, which has a maximum number of divers allowed per day? What if the max number arrives at 8am and dives until noon, and then everybody goes home? Nobody else is allowed in until tomorrow. ...

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I can understand how this can become frustrating,but all state parks have a carrying capacity,just some reach it faster than others. You ever look at Ichetucknee during the summer? They have a line of cars 1/4 mile long with tubers at 7am,because they will hit their quota 30minutes after they open the gate. But expand you view to other parks like Yosemite and Yellowstone that have carrying capacities,and without reservations you won't get in because of popularity. Parks have a mission to provide recreational access but protect the resource as well. So where I too feel the pain of going to Manatee and being told that I can't dive,but when I do I see a cave in very good shape. Conversely lets look at two caves that have unrestricted access,one that is your favorite. They continue to show extreme wear and tear,and the damage gets worse. The one thing about carrying capacities is that if there isn't evidence of wear and tear the number can be changed to accommodate more people,but the converse is true.

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Originally Posted by bullfrog

getting old and don't remember that. Could you post a link to the old thread about that?

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See Underwater Speleology, November/December 1990 - P. 3 "Accident Closes Peacock Springs to Solo Cave Diving"

Here is a picture of the incident report: NSS News 1990-v048-013: AMERICAN CAVING ACCIDENTS 1990

http://oi60.tinypic.com/23lcked.jpg

That was 1990. It's 2014 and we're now in sidemount, solo diving should be allowed.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Kind of partial to them.
1)Peacock used to be owned by the Cattlemen's Association before it became a state park,it was closed to all forms of access
2) Madison moved between county contractors,and the diving access was intermittent,and eventually stayed closed for quite awhile. State took it over,and we have consistent access
3)Lafayette was closed to diving as a county park,but once the state took it over,diving was established
4) If the state had Telford,we would be diving it now

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Then what's the story with Bonnet? We used to have access but now it seems that only a select few are allowed access there.

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

That was 1990. It's 2014 and we're now in sidemount, solo diving should allowed.

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I Agree! But when a question is posed regarding the state-park-solo-diving-rule, it's worth pointing out why that rule got put in place to begin with. It wasn't just a subjective notion conjured from thin air, it was the result of an accident analysis at the time. Should someone attempt to actually get the rules altered, they should know the facts/history of it and what kind of arguments they might be up against.

Like I said before, I think the benefits of solo diving Peacock outweigh the risks. I would pay mega $$$ to be able to dive that place solo whenever I want. But I also respect the park, the rangers, and the idea that perhaps that rule is in place for a reason.

Cave diving agencies should take this up with the state. They want to sell certs, we want to solo scooter peacock. Push for solo diving and scooter diving with proper certification.

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Originally Posted by Greenwood_60

Cave diving agencies should take this up with the state. They want to sell certs, we want to solo scooter peacock. Push for solo diving and scooter diving with proper certification.

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Cave divers are the ones that begged to get scooters banned.

I am glad there's no scootering in Peacock, that would be an utter disaster with the low flow, and it really isn't all that necessary, sure it would be nice to expedite entry, but it doesn't outweigh the consequences of a misdirected wash and blows the cave out for a week.

Solo diving I wish they would take back, especially with the huge change in gear configuration since 1990.... Just means the agencies have to go back and push them to allow us to, I think it is something that we can change, but not without NFSA and the agencies backing it.

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

That was 1990. It's 2014 and we're now in sidemount, solo diving should allowed.

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+1. 24 years a lot has changed. We used to teach buddy breathing by passing the regulator back and forth between divers. I for as I know the YMCA was the last to drop that from there requirements but now they are out of the certification business. Yet I keep hearing the basic open water training agency's teach having a buddy so the state says all scuba diving must be done with a buddy.
I don't blame the upper management of the parks for requiring a buddy. I imagine a lot of them are recreation open water divers and that was what they were taught. But cave diving is not open water diving and it sure isn't diving like in the nineties. So maybe the state needs to be updated into what there visitors of the park are now diving.
I understand where Russell is coming from about the use of State Parks. I still buy the Annual Family Pass every year more for support than anything else. Remember the Florida law that required all motorcycle riders to wear a helmet. Now the rider has a choice, helmet or no helmet. (Buddy or No Buddy)


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Originally Posted by Walter Pickel

Then what's the story with Bonnet? We used to have access but now it seems that only a select few are allowed access there.

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Bonnet presently doesn't have access because of erosional issues. At the Peacock Springs Advisory panel meeting I was able to enter wording into the draft management plan that would allow access with the provision that the erosional issues were addressed. As soon as we get the draft management plan approved we will start the process,and seek engineering assistance to design steps.

Presently I have access to the site on a quarterly basis by scientific permit for fauna counts and water quality survey,which calls for documenting fauna in fixed distances,and using equipment to check dissolved oxygen levels, pH, conductivity, oxygen-reduction,and temperature to determine faunal patterns. All reports we generate are not proprietary,and viewable by anybody,but there is quite an extent of data.This data is being used for publication in a scientific journal,which will be the first time stygobitic species have been looked at in this manner,so it actually is cutting edge due to an awesome team we have. The information we collect doesn't inspire cave divers because we are not laying line or connecting systems,but we are opening up a hidden world,and doing exploration on a micro-perspective. Participation is not closed,and we have requests to help,which we honor and appreciate.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

Cave divers are the ones that begged to get scooters banned.

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You sure????

Scootering was stopped in Peacock,but caver divers didn't ask for it,even though their actions were the cause.
The management plan called for scootering to be stopped,this occurred when Azail Nail was the park manager of Peacock out Of Ichetucknee (year approx. 1998 to 1999) Nobody read the management plan,so scootering never stopped. When they got a new park manager,which I think was Tom Brown,the management plan was enforced,because he enacted what it called for.

Why was scootering stopped? There was damage that had occurred to the cave,and there was a concern that scootering would cause more. I recall a point where scootering was being conducted irresponsibility,for example scootering OG to Challenge back when that section used to have a lot of silt,and it would silt out the cave. People were scootering Waterhole tunnel without getting off the trigger etc etc. These things resulted in complaints to the park staff,which I am sure resonated upward.

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Originally Posted by SlowDiver

.... for as I know the YMCA was the last to drop that from there requirements but now they are out of the certification business. Yet I keep hearing the basic open water training agency's teach having a buddy so the state says all scuba diving must be done with a buddy.

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True, but it was the YMCA that started the buddy system. They had always taught swimming using the buddy system, because the instructors only had to watch half as many students. All the later agencies were made up of YMCA instructors, and just carried on the tradition.

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Originally Posted by FW

True, but it was the YMCA that started the buddy system. They had always taught swimming using the buddy system, .

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Just maybe that's why there is no YMCA scuba program anymore.



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Scootering at Peacock? Nah. Scootering is a tool that just isn't needed there. The low flow means you can swim just about anywhere, and the low flow also means that errant silt poofs take forever to clear.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Half the people working for government entities wouldn't make it thirty minutes working in the private sector.

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I'm going to consider myself in the upper half :)

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Originally Posted by adam_Hughes

See Underwater Speleology, November/December 1990 - P. 3 "Accident Closes Peacock Springs to Solo Cave Diving"

Here is a picture of the incident report: NSS News 1990-v048-013: AMERICAN CAVING ACCIDENTS 1990

http://oi60.tinypic.com/23lcked.jpg

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Darden was in my full cave class in 88. He was a nice guy. What I remember about him was that he would dive out of his Mercedes 450SL convertible. I haven't seen that since...

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Originally Posted by SlowDiver

I imagine a lot of them are recreation open water divers and that was what they were taught. But cave diving is not open water diving and it sure isn't diving like in the nineties. So maybe the state needs to be updated into what there visitors of the park are now diving.

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Well good luck with explaining "just" OWDs that solo diving was not an issue as a cave diver because of different training and protocols.
They will understand *nilch* and just think you are crazy..

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Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

Well good luck with explaining "just" OWDs that solo diving was not an issue as a cave diver because of different training and protocols.
They will understand *nilch* and just think you are crazy..

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Ask them if they are allowed to drive a car by themselves and if it's safer to drive in a buddy team.
For a good laugh, ask them if they think driving with their spouse as a passenger is safer than driving on their own :-)

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

...For a good laugh, ask them if they think driving with their spouse as a passenger is safer than driving on their own :-)

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Now that is pretty good!

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

For a good laugh, ask them if they think driving with their spouse as a passenger is safer than driving on their own :-)

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That's not the buddy system. She just tells me what to do.

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Originally Posted by MikeT

That's not the buddy system. She just tells me what to do.

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That means they are doing a "Trust Me Dive"


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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

I would like to extend a personal invitation to solo dive at Peacock. The rangers do monitor things,and if they see something out of the ordinary they call law enforcement. If law enforcement is called and charges are filed all of us get the opportunity to buy gear that has been impounded for pennies on the dollar. The ranger logs license plate numbers,and if you are reported as diving solo,but get away before law enforcement can make it,then you may get the lifetime ban at state parks from diving (not just Peacock,and this did happen recently).

Fred asks the questions,"why can't I dive solo at state parks". State parks use the same rules we are taught in entry level scuba,which is buddy diving. This has extended to all forms of diving,and as long as organizations that support entry level scuba training teach buddy diving,then we will probably always have no solo diving. But, I have a solo diving card!!!! Good luck using that as a mechanism for changing the rules. Can the rules be changed? Possibly,but be prepared for something that can take some time-I would start with Jeff Loflin and Donald Forgione.

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Kelly, Please cite the Fl Statute that provides for the Forfeiture of private property for the violation of a State Park Rule? At most the only "Crime" that is Committed would be Trespass after warning when you refuse to leave after being kicked out. Why do we continue to use the Confiscation of expensive Gear Boogeyman to make people do the right thing. FWC has REAL Laws that provide for confiscation and forfeiture if you violate Game laws like too many lobster etc.

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Originally Posted by gasdiver

Darden was in my full cave class in 88. He was a nice guy. What I remember about him was that he would dive out of his Mercedes 450SL convertible. I haven't seen that since...

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Is that date right? I was diving in Peacock when we cam upon a guy, Solo, light out hanging on the ceiling, it seemed strange but later he said he was just chilling. Two days later he was dead. I thought that was Darden Davis but it had to be 1991 or 92 Unless I was cave diving in Peacock under my Cavern Card which was entirely possible at the time. We all do stupid thing once in a while.

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Originally Posted by bamafan

Lifetime ban from diving in any state parks? How does this work? They already broke some rule to get banned do they really believe they are going to abide by this? It isn't like our ID's are swipped to get into a state park and I have a hard time believing that anyone would actually type all the names off a sign in sheet to any computer data base. I just don't see this being enforceable.

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Another no existent Boogeyman

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Originally Posted by curtschu

Kelly, Please cite the Fl Statute that provides for the Forfeiture of private property for the violation of a State Park Rule? At most the only "Crime" that is Committed would be Trespass after warning when you refuse to leave after being kicked out. Why do we continue to use the Confiscation of expensive Gear Boogeyman to make people do the right thing. FWC has REAL Laws that provide for confiscation and forfeiture if you violate Game laws like too many lobster etc.

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You know I go over the speed limit and get pulled over, I don't ask what the statute is that I am being cited under. If I send anthrax in the mail to a public official I don't ask the FBI what federal law I just broke. I am repeating back what law enforcement has said,and I am not questioning them in regards to right or wrong. Obviously there must be something to confiscation of items because there are some great deals to be had their sales. Why doesn't somebody like yourself exercise your right of civil disobedience and have a chance encounter with FWC law enforcement at the park,and then let us know the entire process along with what statue you are charged under.

PS, the lifetime ban from the parks isn't a boogeyman,but is really policy. The people who did the graffiti in the OG basin had the punishment extended to them,and since I lost track of the case,this may have been enacted.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

PS, the lifetime ban from the parks isn't a boogeyman,but is really policy.

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100% correct. Cathy (Outpost) has been involved in this process before with some unruly park goers. Ranger Rick ("Ranger Invisible"), Despite being close to retirement, doesn't play games. While he may not have the authority to enforce repercussions, he certainly has those who can on speed dial.

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Originally Posted by curtschu

Kelly, Please cite the Fl Statute that provides for the Forfeiture of private property for the violation of a State Park Rule? At most the only "Crime" that is Committed would be Trespass after warning when you refuse to leave after being kicked out. Why do we continue to use the Confiscation of expensive Gear Boogeyman to make people do the right thing. FWC has REAL Laws that provide for confiscation and forfeiture if you violate Game laws like too many lobster etc.

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Don't know if this is the process that they're using, but John Oliver had an interesting segment on civil forfeiture recently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEpZWGgJks

-Jon

Does it really matter which LEO or LEA has the right or the ability to do what?

As cave divers, we simply need to step up and do the right thing to maximize our potential for access. Not just at WSPSSP but in general. Respect for land owners and managers being pretty high on the list.

I understand the OP was putting forth a hypothetical situation so I am not sling arrows anywhere or at anyone. There are places to solo dive. Even some you can talk about :)

I agree there are other places to Solo Dive. When I was at REACT Bill wanted me to analyze his 21/30 banked mix. While doing so he mention that he hadn't seen me around lately. Now I know I'm not the only one that has quit coming to the State Parks because of this rule. As I mention before I still buy a Family Annual Pass every year. But businesses like Cave Adventures and Dive Outpost or not receiving any revenue since I now must go elsewhere to dive.
Also the ones that I have notice mostly diving Solo are the rebreather divers that believe in carrying all of there own bailout instead of using the team bailout procedure.


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Seems we've been talking about this for a while: http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...FL-State-Parks

My suggestion is to get someone to start issuing a "solo cave card" and petition then the state.

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Originally Posted by w ripley

Seems we've been talking about this for a while: http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...FL-State-Parks

My suggestion is to get someone to start issuing a "solo cave card" and petition then the state.

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I have a bright and shiny new Solo Diver Card. And a Cave Card. Shouldn't those two together be OK? Once they change the rules? :-)

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Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

I have a bright and shiny new Solo Diver Card. And a Cave Card. Shouldn't those two together be OK? Once they change the rules? :-)

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Yeah,but we will need the night diver card (its dark in there), drysuit card,and the PADI specialty card for spring diving.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Yeah,but we will need the night diver card (its dark in there), drysuit card,and the PADI specialty card for spring diving.

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Hmmm. You're right. I can't argue with any of those! Does PADI teach spring (and quarry for that matter) divers that they don't need to rinse their dive gear off afterwards?

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Yeah,but we will need the night diver card (its dark in there), drysuit card,and the PADI specialty card for spring diving.

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I had to get an Oh-Fisc-Ci-Al Solo Card to dive solo in the local quarries.

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Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

divers that they don't need to rinse their dive gear off afterwards?

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Les we forget,always wash gear off so we don't spread exotic plant species :-)

Damn...forgot the PADI Washing Your Dive Gear to Avoid Spreading Exotic Plant Species c-card

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Heaven forbid someone wants to stay until the posted closing time, and the ranger is ten minutes late getting his supper.

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Some buddies & I were late coming off a dive there. Certainly was an honest mistake. It was only a couple days after completing our Full Cave class. We decided to do a dive without our instructor (he went back to the trailer to take a nap). Well,... we went off our time pieces (We're central time). No one even considered that we were actually in Eastern time. We started the dive at what we thought was 3:00pm (was actually 4:00pm). We surfaced about 15 min after closing,... The ranger & our instructor was there (He was worried because we hadn't returned & Saw our vehicles unattended still),... the ranger stood back & let our instructor chew us up one side & down the other. We threw our gear into the vehicles & even stripped one guy of his gear because he wanted to screw around. We got a massive butt chewing & also apologized to the ranger for keeping him late. He seemed to be lenient that day & just waved us off & warned us not to let it happen again. That was a big oops....

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Les we forget,always wash gear off so we don't spread exotic plant species :-)

Damn...forgot the PADI Washing Your Dive Gear to Avoid Spreading Exotic Plant Species c-card

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:-)

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Les we forget,always wash gear off so we don't spread exotic plant species :-)

Damn...forgot the PADI Washing Your Dive Gear to Avoid Spreading Exotic Plant Species c-card

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Apparently you also forgot the prerequisite exotic species ID specialty as well

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Yeah,but we will need the night diver card (its dark in there), drysuit card,and the PADI specialty card for spring diving.

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Hahaha...Well Played. :)

I am sure this thread can go on forever,but the bottom line I think the park system does a pretty good job. Is it perfect-no. Are there rules that we don't like or inconvenience us- yes. Then again we all may meet up in the after life and we will read on "cave divers in heaven" forum- my cloud is too soft, the harp playing is too loud, the boogeyman is liked by St Peter more....... Perhaps some of us are setting the bar too high for an agency that caters to recreation and resource management where cave divers are just a fraction of a percent of the overall user group. I tend to be glass is half full person and look at the places we have access to would be potentially a lot more difficult if not managed by the state,because a couple of the places were a nightmare before the state took over,and yes with this come rules by the land owner/manager. I have found the state park management to be quite reasonable,and really wanting to accommodate our needs. When I petitioned to have two sites reopened,it happened. Asked to have cavern diving returned to two sites,it did. When the carrying capacity quota was going to be like Manatee for Peacock,we negotiated a way of averaging it so no one is inconvenienced. This list goes on longer than you care to read,but the bottom line is they listen,and do their best. Several things have been brought up. #1 Solo diving at Peacock- this needs to be carried to the top (Tallahassee),and is a wholesale change in philosophy. Like I said rules can be changed,but time needs to be put into this and provide a good presentation. The energy used to type complaints about not being able to do it on the forums could be used for letter writing to people who can fix the issue. #2 DPV use at Peacock. This quite clearly is stated in the management plan,and is in the next management plan that is pending. Here again it needs to go to Tallahassee and show justification on how it can be done and managed well. Here you will have a mountain to climb,because I have run into some of that wall myself #3 Extending the dive time at Peacock during the summer. The NFSA has had a dialogue with park management about this,and changing hours like this requires approval from higher up. This is an issue that isn't done,but moving along slowly through the management chain. All of us can exercise our right to civil disobedience and do any of these things,but to what gain. Cave divers have gained a lot of respect over the years,and many of us can remember a few years ago when it was the opposite. Because of this relationship we have been able to have some gains that have made the park experience more rewarding,I for one want to continue this positive relationship.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

You know I go over the speed limit and get pulled over, I don't ask what the statute is that I am being cited under. If I send anthrax in the mail to a public official I don't ask the FBI what federal law I just broke. I am repeating back what law enforcement has said,and I am not questioning them in regards to right or wrong. Obviously there must be something to confiscation of items because there are some great deals to be had their sales. Why doesn't somebody like yourself exercise your right of civil disobedience and have a chance encounter with FWC law enforcement at the park,and then let us know the entire process along with what statue you are charged under.

PS, the lifetime ban from the parks isn't a boogeyman,but is really policy. The people who did the graffiti in the OG basin had the punishment extended to them,and since I lost track of the case,this may have been enacted.

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I don't need to worry about it as a Former LEO I have this pathological obsession for not breaking the laws. I just get my hackles up when laws are stated wrong. True IF you were in fact trespassing and IF you refused to leave when ordered you gear COULD be taken for safekeeping but forfeiture laws are pretty specific. Hell why do you think Pot is still illegal in Florida. LEO makes LOTS of money take Cash from people on I-95. Anyway getting off topic, We need to address the hour of operation for summer months with the park managers I don't think we have a hope to get solo diving back in state parks. Too many of the recent "Cave Diver" deaths have been solo.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

I am sure this thread can go on forever,.......

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Do you mean that it hasn't already been forever? It sure seems that way. Damn.

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Originally Posted by curtschu

, We need to address the hour of operation for summer months with the park managers I don't think we .

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An area the NFSA is working on

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Do you mean that it hasn't already been forever? It sure seems that way. Damn

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Yes,but as with most daytime dramas people keep coming back to tune in. Godwin's law says that eventually all forum threads will melt down to some reference to Nazisim or Hitler,so I keep waiting to see how this will be referenced.

If you count all the times this has been kicked down the road I guess it has been forever.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

... Godwin's law says that eventually all forum threads will melt down to some reference to Nazisim or Hitler,so I keep waiting to see how this will be referenced.

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Hmm, it seems you just referenced it :roll:

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Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

At some point in the not to distant past we were taught to respect the rules of the landowner. We should recall those days and remind everyone, even those who respect nothing that we should respect the landowner.

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The topic here is solo diving at Peacock, but perhaps Jim is refering to cave exploration in general in North Florida, where a fair amount of solo diving may occur!
Solo diving serves a purpose in that it may attune you to develop better skills & work on your technique as well. However, you do this enough & it becomes boring & you start looking for safe buddys to share your digs with ! It is only as dangerous as you make it. You need to be on top of your game if you do go solo!
Ask the landowners first, before you ck the joint out, and you'll make a much better
impression by having a safe buddy along with you.

This is only my personal opinion....Jim Wyatt is correct ! Ask first before you dive it !

We need an award for for 100 safe solo cave dives. Maybe we can come up with a name for it that's as ironic as Abe Davis.

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Originally Posted by Greenwood_60

We need an award for for 100 safe solo cave dives. Maybe we can come up with a name for it that's as ironic as Abe Davis.

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How about the "George Irvine III" award?

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

How about the "George Irvine III" award?

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Ding!
My popcorn is ready!

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

How about the "George Irvine III" award?

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Ding, Ding, Ding, Winner!!!

Sent via

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

How about the "George Irvine III" award?

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Seconded but you need a witness to sign off that the dive happened

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

How about the "George Irvine III" award?

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This needs to be a yearly award on here for the biggest douche of the year. Could we set it up as a poll?

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

How about the "George Irvine III" award?

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Perfect!

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Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo

Seconded but you need a witness to sign off that the dive happened

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How about the state park rangers?

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Who owns Peacock?

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We, the citizens of Florida.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

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Kelly, I hope you realize that when I argue with you on the forum it's kind of like arguing with my brother when I was a kid. It just happens.

(If you were at the Scubapro Expert Tech clinic last week and heard three of us cave divers extolling your virtues you would have been embarrassed.)

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Originally Posted by Greenwood_60

How about the state park rangers?

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Government workers never see nothing but wait bring a buddy to witness you not diving with him.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Kelly, I hope you realize that when I argue with you on the forum it's kind of like arguing with my brother when I was a kid. It just happens.

(If you were at the Scubapro Expert Tech clinic last week and heard three of us cave divers extolling your virtues you would have been embarrassed.)

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Russell-never,ever an issue,I think discussion is healthy,and appreciate the opportunity. You make valid points along with many others,and I greatly appreciate it. One thing the NFSA does is set yearly goals with park management,and discussions like this help tremendously in determining the needs of the visitors of the parks. Anybody who loves Sonny's BBQ as much as you do has got to be a great person ;-)

Russell, you mean you did not argue with Renea ? That gets him, and is fun to do. Expesially when they have changed the way to do it and we have done it the way they showed long time ago or found a faster way when they newer ones are to slow.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

... One thing the NFSA does is set yearly goals with park management,and discussions like this help tremendously in determining the needs of the visitors of the parks...

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Speaking of the NFSA, for less than a Nitrox fill or for the price of a very nice lunch, you can join the NFSA for as little as $15 a year. Benefits include an awesome newsletter and free admission to our annual workshop. To join go to www.northfloridaspringsalliance.org. The North Florida State parks will appreciate you for it.

Kelly, please stop putting "Sonny's" and "BBQ" in the same sentence. Unless you write, "Sonny's oven-baked meat that is supposed to resemble BBQ."

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Kelly, please stop putting "Sonny's" and "BBQ" in the same sentence. Unless you write, "Sonny's oven-baked meat that is supposed to resemble BBQ."

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Faux-Q? :)

While watching CNBC this afternoon they were talking about the FAA and what rules need to be made for the Drones. Some of the changes that are on the table is for the planes that carry cargo like UPS and FEDEX will be able to have only one pilot in the plane.
Glad to see old out of date rules being changed.🐌


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