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So I'm diving Devils Eye yesterday. As we are on our way out (exiting team) we meet another team that is coming in...they plow right on past us as if we were not even there. When I get to my primary tie off, these $%^#heads had their primary tie off right on top of mine.
What happen to cave diving etiquette?
you should have cut their line, and kicked someass.
Jason B:
In 1989, I was making a night dive inside Devil's Ear and had tied the primary line to the log in the basin. On the way back out from The Lips, a pair of divers passed me on scooters. As I was reeling back out, I discovered that the end of the line was tied in a big wad to a rock projection on the deco shelf inside the cavern. There was no light filtering down into the cavern entrance/exit to show the way out. Only by knowing where it was at was I able to exit safely.
I was fairly new to the cave system at that time, so running a line from the log was normal procedure for me. This procedure has since pretty much been abandoned by cave divers. A tieoff is now made on the deco shelf, or else a visual swim is made to the start of the permanent line just beyond the cavern zone.
Only at that site (the Ear), in that system. There are times that running a line from that log could be more dangerous to exiting divers than not having one is to the entering diver. Entanglement hazard in high flow. I would still run a line just inside the cavern zone if you are not familiar with the system. There's probably a rock tieoff somewhere just inside the entrance restriction. Dive during the day so you are guaranteed some ambient light from the entrance.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainSpeleo
However, there is no good excuse for not yielding to exiting divers. It's a serious symptom of tunnel vision and/or stupidity.
I haven't run a reel to the start of the permanent line ever since it was moved back from just beyond The Lips to just beyond the cavern zone.
I wholeheartedly agree that running a reel from the log in the spring basin is an entanglement hazard. That was the procedure with most divers 16 years ago, but not anymore, especially with the wide-spread use of scooters in there now.
My buddy and I are both intro divers and we both had a similiar incident about two months ago. We were diving the ear and were enjoying a relaxed dive preparing to exit when two divers blew by us on scooters, maybe a little more than 125 feet inside the cave. My buddy I looked at each other and of course yielded to them since they were in such a hurry. When we were trained it was drilled into us that the exiting divers had the right of way, since the exiting divers may have pressing air issues. I hope this is not the start of trend but as stated "tunnel vision" (cave diving, ha ha ha ha!!!) since the mayhem that would ensue would result in an injury.
Live like it were impossible to fail and it will be. Gasman
Yeah. I wouldn't either but I'm familiar with the cave. I like to do the Eye. More room to maneuver around people and easy to just slide sideways down into the cave in sidemount. I think the Ear is easier in backmount. I don't know about 'no scooter' stuff. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by CaptainSpeleo
Disclaimer: BTW FWIW - a diver CAN easily get lost exiting by way of the Eye so know where you are going or you had better run that line. There's good reason it's called the Catacombs.
Gasman:
The tunnel between the cavern room and "The Lips" restriction is pretty large, so dive teams going in opposite directions aren't really going to hinder each other. There's really no reason for a scooter team to come to a complete stop while a swimming team exits by them. They just need to give each other a wide berth.
The gallery area(the are you are referring to) is HUGE. There is no reason that multiple teams can't pass each other going opposite directions without slowing down and/or having to yield to the other team. I have passed other teams MANY times in there without ever slowing down....some of them going the opposite direction, some of them I was passing while going the same direction and I was scootering.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gasman
Now, if a couple of you are smack in the middle of that big tunnel, there might be an issue with other teams. Plus, you said you were "preparing to exit". If you were not yet facing and swimming out, they may have thought you were headed in too.
Mike
maybe instead of a signal book, what really needs to happen is an etiquette class at the next conferences, all 3 major cave organizations need one... especially the one with the most ginnie "i'm a badass" divers.
All 3 major cave organisations being?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
When on Friday did this happen I was there all day and I only saw two reels all day. My team's that we put in at about 10:30 and did not pull until 6:30 PM and one coming from the Eye. There was a team coming in when we pulled our reel that had to come back and run there own. I thought that was kinda risky to trust that a reel would be there when you exit with out talking to the owner first. Otherwise I did see the problem you descibe.
Curt
Curt, it happened on Thursday (Thanksgiving).Quote:
Originally Posted by curtschu
I think Nick had the correct response. :twisted:
I see your post is dated Saturday so I thought you were there Friday.
It was real nice Friday.
Hmmm, on my computer it says "Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:42 pm".Quote:
Originally Posted by curtschu
Regardless, thanks for the reply. It was nice on Thursday also. I spent Fri at Madison and Peacock.
Good dives to you all!
Angie, that's weak, and a poor excuse for crappy training. If people are not trained to place the line so that it does not run down the center of the passage they will have worse problems in other places than ginnie. Instructors need to teach students to place and remove line in high flow so that it is NOT an entanglement hazard, for that team or any other- It is absolutely possible to run four or five lines into that hole without obstructing the actual entrance. It just takes a little common skill that should be taught in CAVERN! :evil:Quote:
Originally Posted by Angie Reim
:smt027
/Rant off/
Tegg- seriously- someone could give a good class on this and it wouldnt be wasted- there are a lot of individual and team skills that could fall into etiquette- Of course most of them should be taught, but many aren't any more. Particularly to those folks who found cave diving so easy that they decided to knock it all out in seven days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
Dang- I'm on a rampage tonight.
J
Ya know what??? You are right!! I guess I just got tired of getting tangled in those lines that were not placed properly and then rationalized not laying one 'in this case'. Truth is that done properly it is not a problem at Devil's Ear or Eye. Done PROPERLY. It's the improperly laid line that is a problem - potentially serious problem if you've read some of the Incident Reports. Thank you for the kick in my rearend. Ya'll better start laying those lines properly or you'll be subject to some serious chewing. I'll say 'Johnny made me do it -- but I agree. :smt091Quote:
Originally Posted by rchrds
Disclaimer: Yep. He's right in this case, but then again, I don't argue unless I know I'm right..........
I love how this "Johnny" guy always gets blamed for my comments. Right on. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Angie Reim
JASON made me do it! :-D
There was an intro class there Saturday, and they were probably the ones, because they came down on top of me in the gallery, knocked off my mask, and I lost my goodman handle trying to get by them. They got in the middle of our team, and split us in the beginning. I had run a primary in the eye Saturday morning, and left it there the whole weekend, and didn't pull until Sunday, but you had to actually look for my line because it was nicely placed out of the way. The only reason I even ran it was because we had a member of out Saturday team with only 15 cave dives, and was never in Ginnie before, and I wanted to make sure he had a continous line out for his safety, and to add to his comfort level.
Another cave diving etiquette thing is not peeing on people in the parking lot thru your pee valve, and putting condom catheters on car antenna!
There is a reason I wear my helmet when I dive at Ginnie other than that's where my backup lights stay. I have not made a dive there in the last year where I have not been run over, kicked, tied up in line, had divers drop on me from above or in general gotten irritated. It's one of the reasons I don't dive there (along with being cheap) I have to figure though that you go into a Nursery at work and you are sure to get spit up on by a baby. Most of those divers are learning and I have my share of mistake badges also. Try to remember how bad we all were when we first started. Cindy :D
Good point Cindy, but I'm intro level and these guys were full cave (I assume as they had deco bottles). I would have hoped they would have set a better example for me, but I guess not. I hope I set a good example for them :wink:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy
Oh.....hahahahaha. Gross but kind of funny (only if I'm watching out of the splash zone). Must be a 'man thing'.Quote:
Originally Posted by John L.
Only time I ever get penis envy.....y'all can pee wherever you want to.
I wouldn't bet on them being full cave. Scooters, deco tanks, stages and even rebreathers are not the sign of a full cave diver anymore. All those toys are just too available these days. Diving at Ginnie they may not have even been from this country and know what our etiquitte is! The only thing you can do is be aware of your own surroundings, be attentive to your own buddies and try to anticipate the actions of those in the cave with you. Some of the things that people miss when they don't finish full cave or take the full cave in seven days classes is etiquitte, stories around campfires, mentoring from their instructors and dive buddies. Too bad if we have to create yet another class to cover information that should be common sense and courtesy. Cindy :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason B.
Penis, Shmenis. You can too. You just don't want to. :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by Angie Reim
:butthead: Hahahahahaha! Nope. Don't want to.
I've never been in agreement with allowing a diver to go from Openwater to Full Cave in an 8-day marathon course.
You know what their argument is?
I wasn't Open Water eight days ago. I was ADVANCED Open Water eight days ago!
Russell
Lately I have noticed more divers exiting high on the wall opposite the line. (Where divers usually enter) I do not know what trend that represents but that may explain why people entering with scooters are encountering the divers, normally they would not be anywhere near each other in the gallery.
:blackbar3 i am writing the book, How to be a pc cave diver. By The Gypsy.
I will cover how to properly lay a line, how to look like a kitten with a ball of yarn, what to do when others are exiting, How to deal with evil scooter divers that think, Goose its time to buzz the diver. Games to play with a used cath.
What to do with gear you find. how to be a good cave diving host. What to tell your wife, husband, boyfriend, girlfriend, when your diving on some big day. like his or her birthday. And how to get out of jail free after getting busted for sneak diving. i will be pre-selling copies, so send 29.95 to paypal caver95 at aol.com. The First edition will be shipping as soon as it gets back from the printers i only have 10,000 copies it is sure to be a best seller so getum now!!!
Well, you stuck with me your "8 day wonder" dive partner :roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainSpeleo
Lee
My last trip down, I scootered low in the flow to give the swim divers the out of flow areas up high entering. Even stopped on exit outside restrictions to let several teams thru, seems like the way it should be taught. (was in mine). Now, I did see many teams hanging out in either entrance getting things sorted out and was waved thru many times due to the backups. Oh yea, BTW, eight day wonder. :twisted:
Is your avatar Mr. Bean or Pee Wee Herman?
Gees, I feel for you guys! You missed out on begging your instructor for a card after a year of training! I would think you men are the exception to the rule...Quote:
Originally Posted by lonestarfl
I worry about the ones that take the week long course on vacation, go home to Idaho or wherever and only come back for trips. It's got to be miserable for them having to play catch up with the skills each year. Unfortunately from what I see some don't bother.
I am very blessed to be able to be here diving each week and around all you all who are an inspiration to my spirit and mind. I love you guys, Cindy :D
Gee, your instructor's initials: SF?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy
How could you guess? Steve once told me his job was to slow me down. He did and I have to admit I am a better diver because of it! At the time he was a pain in my a** Funny but I know he was right now.
Oh Lee, not everyone has your brains, money or looks. We are talking about the average Joe Diver Dude. Cindy :D
My instructor wouldn't give you your Full Cave card until you had accomplished a number of tasks, one of which was the Mile Run at Peacock (Orange Grove to Peacock 1). Because of a number of circumstances, one being the floods of 1997 and 1998, it was OVER a year between my taking Full Cave and actually getting my Full Cave card. Try February 1997 until October 1998.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy
Russell
Oh....that was YOUR truck??? :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by John L.
Mike
If so, it's probably a case of divers not knowing how to read the flow in the cave, and putting yourself in the most advantageous position. Not suprising these days. When I scooter at Ginnie, I go straight down the gallery, in the middle, down low...unless there's somebody else in that position. That generally gives the swimming divers a good track for ingress and egress for optimal flow conditions. It's always nice when you find a team of 3 or 4 in a vertical position all over the place effectively blocking the entire gallery...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay
Mike
I stand corrected. You have to be Advanced Openwater certified before taking the Cavern/Intro Cave/Full Cave courses.
I got Advanced Openwater certified in December 1986, Cavern/Intro Cave certified in October 1987, and Full Cave certified in September 1989. The time spread between courses gave me the opportunity to get plenty of dives and plenty of experience before going on to the next course.
So what is the etiquette?
Is it okay for entering team to continue in if there is room for both teams to pass each other?
If there is room to pass, is it rude for the exiting team to occupy all of it forcing the entering team to halt?
What would constitute sufficient room for two teams to pass each other?
That would be determined by the size and configuration of the passage you're in.
If the passage is small(such as in the shallow section of the Peanut tunnel), the entering team should move to one side and come to a complete stop until the exiting team has passed.
Exiting team is supposed to be given the 'right of way.'Quote:
Originally Posted by ScubaBlue
They could be low on gas, have a freaked out diver, who knows what may be up. There is no way for the entering team to know the circumstance of their exit, hence the 'right of way to the exiting team.'
Yeah, dammit! :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeH
I had an interesting experience @ Ginnie earlier this year. We were exiting the cave and coming back past the park bench and making our way to the keyhole... i was in full view of the keyhole, and here come two scooters. I didn't stop, as I assumed they would. Next thing you know, they blow right through the keyhole just about running me over, as well as my girlfriend and her dad who were behind me. I was pissed - it's like, I've spent all this time training, practicing and reviewing rules & etiquette to be a good cave diver and here these guys just about run us over and ignore a rule I had drilled into me during my training...very aggravating.
Anyway... we cruise out of the cave and get to our primary line tie off, to find that someone had tied off OVER our primary tie off. The only way I got my reel off was to CUT my line out of the mess they had made...grrrrrrr.
I'm only an intro to cave diver (hopefully not much longer, heading to missouri wednesday to take my full cave), but even I know that what those divers did on those incidents were wrong.
It was aggravating, but oh well... I deal with plenty of idiot divers on my beloved shipwrecks and other diving spots up here in Wisconsin, I can deal with 'em in caves.
It seems a lot of dpv diver bashing is going on here...well a month or so ago when i was scootering solo at ginnie i passed a team of 5 swimmers in the gallery being sure to give them a lot of room as i stayed in the flow and low. I did a wide swing to the left approaching the lips and got there as the lead diver of the group was starting to pull around the rock on the way in to the lips. I got off the trigger to make sure he saw me before entering, he looked at me and then proceeded through the lips. I sat there as all five of them went through. Got to the keyhole and they were still on there way through so i did a little sightseeing there and then entered the kehole and as i dropped down to the cornflakes there was a diver's fins...there was a backup as everyone was waiting for the lead diver to put in the jump line from the park bench to the bone room line. When they finally cleared i proceeded down the mainline trying to regain my patience...i glanced at my computer and i was 17 minutes into my dive. When getting my dpv training it was emphasized that swimmers have the right of way unless it's an emergency and i always give way...in this instance though, i had the right of way at the lips but wanted to be sure the other diver saw me, expecting him to let me through...which he did not. Courtesy flows both ways...if i had been the lead swimmer i would have let the dpv through. I don't see a story here about the courteous dpv diver who let the team of 5 by him at the lips??? Bill
:)
I'm definitely not bashing DPV divers. It just happened that the inconsiderate divers in my stories were on DPV's...nothing against DPV divers at all!
For the most part, the DPV divers are usually very courteous. But this weekend at Ginnie, I was buzzed twice very closely by two differernt ones. I made up my mind, if some ####### does that again, I am going to grab whatever I can when they go by, and we are gonna scrap. :twisted:Quote:
Originally Posted by Omicron
Proper Scooter Etiquette is very important as the following animated GIF shows... :roll:
http://cavediver.net/images/scooteretiquette.gif
TJ, You Rock! Cindy :D :lol: :lol:
:-D Hilarious! :-D
And what exactly is wrong with that?!?! They were obviously students or intro divers.....since they couldn't get out of the way....am I to blame for that?! :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by tj
Mike
Darn! On my last dive I only got ten points.
Russell
Funny stuff, TJ. Thanks for a great laugh. I may have to invest in H.E.A.S.T. technology. (High Explosive Anti Scooter Torpedos) just to survive my next dive. I'm proposing a cave divers version of Death Race 2000 as an annual event at Ginnie. Can you say Pay Per View?? :evil:
Just like on the Rail Trials, when you go running you carry a thick stick. (for dogs) when the guys start buzzing on the racing bikes jam it in the spokes. Makes for great crash video... :twisted: How about a stick to the prop... :-D No seriously I love you scooter guys just wish I had the extra bucks to invest.
Yep - I hear ya babe! Once I was hit while exiting in the Gallery. I was the lead in a team of three. I was pushed up and into the wall. I never saw nor heard him coming. I was exiting along the old line position. Given the huge size of the Gallery there really was no good excuse it. No offense to the responsible scooter users. Y'all know who you are! 8)Quote:
Originally Posted by John L.
I peed on my my dive partner yesterday at Ginnie on the steps while he was getting his deco bottle. Is that good ediquitte? :twisted:
The next time you and I go diving together, I'll have to watch you more carefully. :-D
Geez, that's better than 'the finger'. Nasty boys! Shame on you! (Envy...envy....envy). :lol:
LOL! I have respect for my elders! By the way, I'm doing WW next Wed. Care to join us?Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainSpeleo
Thanks for the offer, John. I've been dealing with a persistent prostate/bladder infection for the past 16 days and am still pretty much homebound because of it. I doubt if I'll be in good enough shape by then. Thank goodness it held off until after I got home on the 12th from my 4-day cave diving trip. I wouldn't wish this affliction on any man. :cry:
I feel for you Frank. I had the same thing last year, and I have a tumor in mine that was also infected. Fun stuff! Cipro seemed to work the best for me.
The first 10-day regimen of CIPRO didn't work for me, so I'm on another 14-day regimen of it. Peeing razor blades about once an hour is the worst part of it. I haven't gotten a decent night's sleep since I got hit with it. :(