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Sa Gleda has been closed today (I had a nice last dive though :-D ).
See: http://www.rebreathermallorca.com/video/SG/SG.jpg
In the meantime the President of the Federacion Balear de Espeleologia who has no cave diving certification whatsoever and his buddies also without cave diving certification continue to dive as they please Cova de Pas de Vallgornera - effectively denying other European state citizens their rightful access to the cave.
Expect more of the same going forward.
So who is to blame for the closing of San Gleda? And what made it happen just now?
Since it is on private property, how can they even restrict access?
The President of the FBE without consultation wrote to the local authority recommending that cave diving in Sa Gleda be prohibited because the FBE cannot control the access and there is no regulation put in place by the local authority.
In the meantime, he dives Cova de Pas de Vallgornera without cave certification and has no problem keeping that cave open (for himself and his friends).
It is somewhat "logical", as the new rules from this summer were impossible to put in place. I mentioned it at the time: "if you know someone at the FBE/GNM, you will have access, otherwise..."
:-(
This is a request for total closure for all.
Will have to see the local authority formal response.
There are 30 LIC caves in Mallorca. Not just two.
Maybe it's a good thing that the president of the FBE isn't a certified cave diver. Maybe the problem will take care of itself.
You can see the videos posted by the President of the FBE diving without cave certification here: http://vimeo.com/guiemmr/videos/page:1/sort:date .
The Local Authority is about to publish (Spanish time) the Draft "Management Plan" for the PG1 Caves (basically the LIC caves in Mallorca).
After publication there will be a 30 day public consultation period.
I will publish the link and info. in the hope that the international diving community, instructors, dive associations and anybody interested in diving the LIC caves in Mallorca will get involved and participate in the public consultation with their suggestions.
Currently, in Spain diving without cave certification these caves is against national Spanish law and voids insurance (being gross negligence of the insured) and this also being against national law, but the Balearic Government allows the President of the FBE to do it (and so do others) with the consequent risks to themselves, other cave divers, and the cave formations.
I have made an early submission to the public consultation given the urgency of the matter and I include it below, but it was rejected by the authorities on technicalities.
It will be resubmitted as soon as the public consultation process officially re-opens.
De: Gian A. Ameri
Fecha: 4 de septiembre de 2014, 12:48
Asunto: PG1: PLAN DE GESTIÓN "COVES" - Aportaciones Publicas - URGENTE
Para: pia@dgqal.caib.es, participacio@xarxanatura.es
Bon dia!
Se pides copia del borrador de el PG1: PLAN DE GESTIÓN "COVES" para que puedo realizar aportaciones en conformidad a mi derechos de participacion publica.
En tema de espeleobuceo en esta cavidades como primera aportacio’ se pides:
1. Que se cumple el articulo 2.3 de el Orden de el Ministerio de Fomento de 14 Octubre 1997 y no se permites espeleobuceo en esta cavidades sin titulacio’ de espeleobuceo adecuada al nivel de pericolosidad de las cavidades. En el caso de las covas en la lista PG1 como hay mucho riesgo y son muy fragil esta titulacio’ debe ser de el maximo nivel (“Full Cave”) - se exigiria la certificación “Full Cave” (o como se llame el maximo nivel de formación en cuevas para cualquier certificadora privada) para poder acceder a ella.
2. Que se cumple el articulo 24.1 de el Orden de el Ministerio de Fomento de 14 Octubre 1997 y no se permites espeleobuceo en esta cavidades sin seguro de accidents y de responsabilidad civil. No todos los seguros cubren espeleobuceo. Todos lo seguros no cubren espeleobuce en caso de negligencia grave de el asegurado (para ejemplo incumplimento de el articulo 2.3 de el Orden de el Ministerio de Fomento de 14 Octubre 1997). AXA solo cubres accidentes de buceo recreativo, y no cubres acidedentes de espeleobuceo. DAN (considerado el mejor seguro para buceadores tanto recreativos como técnicos) cubre espeleobuceo SOLO SI estas certificado como espeleobuceador y buceas dentro de los limites de tu certificación. Generali (mutua de accidentes deportivos para Federados de Espeleologia en Espana) cubre espeleobuceo SOLO SI estas correctamente certificado para la actividad que estas desempeñando (es decir estar debidamente certificado con titulacio’ de espeleobuceo en el caso de covas PG1 a el maximo nivel “Full Cave”).
3. Que se cumple el articulo 5 requisito c) de de el Decreto 40/2007 y solo se permitirá al buceador participar en aquellas actividades para las cuales esté cualificado de acuerdo con su titulación y se considerará que su experiencia no es superior a la m#nima requerida para haberla obtenido (es decir estar debidamente certificado con titulacio’ de espeleobuceo en el caso de covas PG1 a el maximo nivel “Full Cave”).
4. Que se cumple el Art#culo 6 de el Decreto 40/2007: “Seguridad para la práctica de buceo deportivo y recreativo: Todo practicante de buceo deportivo y recreativo tiene que seguir las determinaciones y tener en cuenta las prohibiciones en cuanto a la inmersión recogidas en la Orden del Ministerio de Fomento de 14 de octubre de 1997, por la que se aprueban las normas de seguridad para el ejercicio de actividades subacuáticas.”
Como en este momento en Baleares y en particular en la Cova de Pas de Vallgornera la Federacion Balear de Espeleologia permites la pratica de espeleobuceo en aparente incumplimento de los articulos a los punto 1, 2, 3, y 4 se pides de inserir estos comentos con URGENCIA en el primer borrador de PG1: PLAN DE GESTIÓN "COVES" que se publicara’ y de cual pido copia.
Anexo Ley y Normas.
Gracias,
You're right, Gian
Not only are flooded caves in Mallorca.
The logical procedure is to do in Mallorca things like they are in the rest of the world.
Yes, can be put in place quotas as in other sites. OK but, can also be require appropriate training for visitors to avoid damage in the caves or on visitors (cave diving certification) and adequate insurance covering accident and liability as required by national legislation and not to close the caves because some visits out of control .
The Cave Diving works well around the world and what all people have to do is to look at the countries with bigger experience and development in this issue and not invent new rules for Cave Diving at Mallorca..
The visitors must have appropriate training and insurance and this and that and more... but the President of the FBE need none of this and that and can dive with no cave certification whatsoever and sets the "quotas" such that Cova de Pas de Vallgornera is his own personal playground...
There is a limit to abuse.
Problem with FBE is they are cavers for whom there is water in the bottom of the caves.
On the other hand, 2 years ago, they (I mean spanish FBE divers) began to put pics on internet, videos on youTube, documentary on TV, ... because they are very proud of their caves. Than came the cave-divers from all around Europe who realize that Mallorca is worth Mexico, but closer and cheaper. Than problems arrive and everything went out of control.
There are only 2 ways to manage caves now: (1) commercially manage access or (2) close everything and only allow scientific dives. There is also a (3) keeping everything secret, but it is too late for Mallorca.
The second option is usually chosen by non-commercial federations. We have the same problems here in Belgium with flooded mines "managed/closed" by the caving federation.
So, the FBE will answer they make only "scientific/research" dives in SaGleda now....
Yes, they will... but you get a chance to put forward your opinion during the Public Consultation process.Quote:
Originally Posted by FredMgt
The local Council cannot defend in front of the EU (these are EU protected caves of EU interest) a situation where there is disparity of treatment between locals and non-locals.
Make yourself heard during the Public Consultation process if you want to dive these caves.
I do not mind them being closed for bona-fide scientific research, but not if this means being dived by an idiot with no cave training who thinks of himself being superior to everybody else.
The lady in charge at the local council is Magdalena Carbonell Pol <mcarbonell@dgmambie.caib.es> .
Maybe start by dropping her an email asking for a copy of the draft plan for the "PG1: PLAN DE GESTIÓN "COVES" and ask if they will accept your participation as a concerned EU citizen (or cave lover from Florida or whatever...) and if it is O.K. to participate in your own language (i.e. English, French, Belgian...).
Maybe she will start getting the picture that this one time the Public Consultation will be for real and they won't be able to secretly hush through what they like without international challenge/contributions.
You can mention I recommended you write to her!
i will do, and i will recommend my flemish friends to do the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by gianaameri
You are a star and spread the word!Quote:
Originally Posted by FredMgt
same here..Quote:
Originally Posted by FredMgt
Latest message from the FBE President (that is the guy who continues to dive with his buddies Cova de Pas de Vallgornera without cave certification, hence without valid insurance):
El Lunes 15 de septiembre de 2014 16:04, Federació Balear Espeleologia <federaciobalear@gmail.com> escribió:
Se nos ha informado, tras la denuncia presentada al SEPRONA referente a visitas a cuevas LIC por "alguien", que este organismo reforzará la vigilancia a las cuevas LIC para controlar y denunciar a los visitantes sin autorización. Sobre todo en Sa Gleda y Drac de Cala Santany que son las mas visitadas por espeleobuceadores. Recordad que el SEPRONA no pide titulaciones solo pide autorizaciones.
Por ello si tenéis en proyecto la visita de alguna cueva LIC debéis solicitar autorización a la Conselleria de Medi Ambient bien directamente o a través de esta federación que la tramitará con la conselleria, menos para Vallgornera que solo se tramita a través de la FBE, Como ya os informé en un anterior e-mail esta federación ya no tramita con la conselleria las autorizaciones para espeleobuceo en Sa Gleda. cada uno debe tramitarla directamente con la Conselleria aunque ya os informo de que hasta la aprobación del Plan de Gestion no habrá autorizaciones
Podeis ver el listado de cuevas LIC aqui http://cuevasprotegidas.federaciobal.../cavidades.php
Guiem Mulet
Presidente de la FBE
FBE President denounces to Guardia Civil (SEPRONA) recent activity in LIC Cave:
http://www.apneamallorca.com/2014/09...l#comment-form
---- Mensaje original ----
Asunto: DENUNCIA actividad en la Cova des Ases
Fecha de env#o: 17/09/2014 15:02
De: Federació Balear Espeleologia <federaciobalear@gmail.com>
Para:
CC:
En referencia a este articulo publicado por APNEA MALLORCA
http://www.apneamallorca.com/2014/09...l#comment-form
en donde se describe la realizacion de una actividad de este club deportivo en la cova des ases
La Cova des Ases es una cueva protegida a nivel de la EU cono LIC ( lugar de Importancia Comunitaria) ES5310043 y por ello cualquier visita debe contar con la preceptiva autorización de la Conselleria de Medi Ambient y aun más para la realización de la actividad que habéis desarrollado que implica un claro riesgo tanto para la seguridad de las personas como para la integridad de los espeleotemas y fauna que alberga la cueva.
Por todo ello esta Federacion Balear de Espeleologia y en el marco del proyecto que lleva a cabo con la Fundación Biodiversidad del Ministerio de Medio Ambiente y con la Dirección de Medi Natural de la Conselleria de Medi Ambient del Govern Balear sobre protección y conservación de las cuevas LIC de Baleares presentará la correspondiente denuncia para que se averigüe y proceda en su caso si esta actividad estaba debidamente autorizada.
No queremos decir con ello que no se puedan visitar las cavidades protegidas como LIC de Baleares sino que cualquier clase de visita debe contar con su preceptiva autorización y de esta manera establecer las pautas poder garantizar la conservación de los frágiles ecosistemas que albergan y que el impacto de la actividad sea el m#nimo posible
Lista cavidades LIC http://cuevasprotegidas.federaciobal.../cavidades.php
Guiem Mulet
Presidente de la FBE
Cave Diving in Mallorca is dead until a new generation, more open-minded, will take the lead at the FBE.
A fee bad apples have ruined it for all.
The FBE is controlled by TWO people only, father and son (I believe).
The father has no cave diving formal training and certification and yet he denounces to the police those who dive the same caves he dives.
These are European Union protected caves!
Could you put slightly smaller image in your signature? It's totally distracting (not in a good way). just one person's humble opinion.
The big stalagmite distracts you?Quote:
Originally Posted by lv2dive
I am sooooo soooorry, am I bad...
The picture is from Toni Cirer, Grup Nort de Mallorca, and I can't alter it (just checked to see if I could accomodate you). It is as is on his controlled server/publisher.
I think it is an awesome picture of the small caves in the island.
This is a beautiful shot of the Galeria 500, sad as it is, we may not see it again in the near future.
I have to agree that the size of the jpeg sort of distracts from your text. Here is a version that is 50% of the size, but otherwise unaltered and equally impressive.
Attachment 11329
You could dive there in the future (not so distant)... there is a way, but there is a small interim step to satisfy.Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
The contract between the Balearic Government and Mr. Guiem Mulet and his son (I believe) Toni which gives them through the FBE unsupervised power over the territory is expiring soon (14 October 2014).
Here is the contract:
www.rebreathermallorca.com/video/SG/contrato.pdf
Scotland had a referendum (and so wants Catalunia) and we are going to have a Public Consultation on the new Cave Management Plan in Mallorca.
Feel free to ask questions as to how this contract came about and express your views as to a. if, and b. to whom, (c. if at all), it should be renewed to by addressing your concerns directly to the lady responsible at the local authority for the current situation in Mallorca in relation to European Union protected caves.
Her - "La responsable de el contracte" - email is Magdalena Carbonell Pol <mcarbonell@dgmambie.caib.es> .
What is (was) worth seeing in 500, and not well-known, are the other Sentinels!Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
There are :
- 2 in the middle of the 500, close to the right passage to "Galeria de los Plomes"
- 1 at the north-est part of the Galeria
- 1 in a side gallery on the right in the north part also.
These four sentinels are smaller, but it is really amazing to see them!
And the Sentinel of Genovesa (Sala Pou Negre) really comes from the "twilight zone" !!
Thank you Gian, I have just sent her a detailed email and will provide you with a copy of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by gianaameri
Shooting from the hip, but my favourite... it works:Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
http://www.rebreathermallorca.com/video/SG/20140906.mp4
The PG1 Plan de Gestio' Cove DRAFT is now available (the local council was supposed to notify me, but they of course did not, I had put the webpage on automatic monitoring :-D ).
You can download it from here:
http://www.xarxanatura.es/index.php?...s_plans_gestio
I have yet to read it.
So, these are the comments I sent (no change from prior ones, requirements Full Cave + Valid Insurance). Please send your comments as well to participacio@xarxanatura.es and mcarbonell@dgmambie.caib.es and marcialbardolet@gmail.com .
You have 30 days to send your comments (not sure how these are counted or applied).
From: Gian A. Ameri
Sent: 19 September 2014 22:06
To: marcialbardolet@gmail.com
Cc: 'Xarxa Natura 2000'; Magdalena Carbonell Pol
Subject: RE: PG1: PLAN DE GESTIÓN "COVES" - Aportaciones Publicas - URGENTE
Veo en internet que el Borrador estas publicado.
Veo en el Borrador que es encluido:
“Excepcionalmente, la Dirección general competente en espacios protegidos red Natura 2000 puede autorizar la práctica de espeleobuceo recreativo o deportivo y cient#fico siempre que se cumplan las prescripciones del Decreto 40/2007, de 13 de abril, por el cual se regula el buceo deportivo y recreativo en la Comunidad Autónoma de las Illes Balears.”
Mi comentos y sugerencias:
El Decreto 40/2007, de 13 de abril es muy general y escrito por imersiones en el Mar. La imersiones en Cova son muy diferente de las imersiones en el Mar. Por esto, necesida explicitar muy bien cual son las reglas por espeleobuceo en cavidad LIC porque’ esta covas son muy fragil y peligrosas (no es como el buceo en el Mar). Esto es muy importante porque’ muchos danos en esta covas son causado de la entrada de espeleobuceadores – con o sin autorizaciones de la Federacion Balear de Espeleologia o de la Conselleria – que no tienen titulacio’ de espeleobuceo y por esto le falta preparacion y capacidad adeguada. Le falta tambien seguro de responsabilidad civil y acidente deportivo porque’ mucho seguros deportivo no cubren el espeleo y el espeleobuceo, y los que lo cubren no son valido si el buceador no tienes titulacion de espeleobuceo. Por esto se pides de encluir de forma explicita y muy clara el siguiente:
1. Que se cumple el articulo 2.3 de el Orden de el Ministerio de Fomento de 14 Octubre 1997 y no se permites espeleobuceo en esta cavidades sin titulacio’ de espeleobuceo adecuada al nivel de pericolosidad de las cavidades. En el caso de las covas en la lista PG1 como hay mucho riesgo y son muy fragil esta titulacio’ debe ser de el maximo nivel (“Full Cave”) - se exigiria la certificación “Full Cave” (o como se llame el maximo nivel de formación en cuevas para cualquier certificadora privada) para poder acceder a ella.
2. Que se cumple el articulo 24.1 de el Orden de el Ministerio de Fomento de 14 Octubre 1997 y no se permites espeleobuceo en esta cavidades sin seguro de accidents y de responsabilidad civil. No todos los seguros cubren espeleobuceo. Todos lo seguros no cubren espeleobuce en caso de negligencia grave de el asegurado (para ejemplo incumplimento de el articulo 2.3 de el Orden de el Ministerio de Fomento de 14 Octubre 1997). AXA solo cubres accidentes de buceo recreativo, y no cubres acidedentes de espeleobuceo. DAN (considerado el mejor seguro para buceadores tanto recreativos como técnicos) cubre espeleobuceo SOLO SI estas certificado como espeleobuceador y buceas dentro de los limites de tu certificación. Generali (mutua de accidentes deportivos para Federados de Espeleologia en Espana) cubre espeleobuceo SOLO SI estas correctamente certificado para la actividad que estas desempeñando (es decir estar debidamente certificado con titulacio’ de espeleobuceo en el caso de covas PG1 a el maximo nivel “Full Cave”).
3. Que se cumple el articulo 5 requisito c) de de el Decreto 40/2007 y solo se permitirá al buceador participar en aquellas actividades para las cuales esté cualificado de acuerdo con su titulación y se considerará que su experiencia no es superior a la m#nima requerida para haberla obtenido (es decir estar debidamente certificado con titulacio’ de espeleobuceo en el caso de covas PG1 a el maximo nivel “Full Cave”).
4. Que se cumple el Art#culo 6 de el Decreto 40/2007: “Seguridad para la práctica de buceo deportivo y recreativo: Todo practicante de buceo deportivo y recreativo tiene que seguir las determinaciones y tener en cuenta las prohibiciones en cuanto a la inmersión recogidas en la Orden del Ministerio de Fomento de 14 de octubre de 1997, por la que se aprueban las normas de seguridad para el ejercicio de actividades subacuáticas.”
Gracias,
Added this morning Point 5 after reading http://www.caib.es/eboibfront/pdf/Vi...861472&lang=es :
From: Gian A. Ameri
Sent: 21 September 2014 11:03
To: marcialbardolet@gmail.com; 'Xarxa Natura 2000'; 'Magdalena Carbonell Pol'
Subject: RE: PG1: PLAN DE GESTIÓN "COVES" - Aportaciones Publicas - URGENTE
…y veo ahora en el Decreto Buceo Baleares 14_2014 (aqui’ encluido) el Articulo 4c:
“c) Con carácter excepcional, y previa autorización de la consejer#a competente en materia de medio ambiente, en el interior de
cavidades terrestres inundadas, ya sea por aguas dulces, ya sea por aguas marinas (espeleobuceo). En cualquier caso, se requiere de
formación, cualificación y equipo especial.”
Por esto, se pides tambien de explicitar en el PG1 de forma muy clara:
5. Que se cumplen las normas de el Decreto 14/2014, de 14 de marzo, por el que se establecen los principios generales en materia de
buceo recreativo en la comunidad autónoma de las Illes Balears y en particular el Articulo 4c.
Gracias,
Something which came up recently from a discussion in another forum (in Spanish).
The websites which appear like official local government websites to obtain approval to access LIC caves like Sa Gleda and Vallgornera, namely:
1. http://covasagleda.esconatura.com/index.php
2. http://www.covavallgornera.org/index.html
are not official local government websites.
They are privately owned and registered to a single private individual (from a whois internet search):
1. http://www.rebreathermallorca.com/vi...neradomain.pdf
2. http://www.rebreathermallorca.com/vi...ledadomain.pdf
It is early days in this Public Consultation process, but it is really important that cave organizations and individuals participate sending their suggestions and comments to help the Gobierno Balear decide the criterias for access to these EU protected caves and the correct management plan.
The decision by the Gobierno Balear has massive ramifications because it is likely that other autonomous regions in Spain will follow its lead (closing the caves or with draconian access rules benefiting only a few and not the cave or the cave community at large).
This Management Plan is being put into place to meet EU Directives and other countries like Spain will need to implement something similar, and what the Gobierno Balear does in respect to these caves which are by far the largest in Europe will in turn impact the views and policies not just in the rest of Spain, but also in other European countries, impacting speleology and cave diving across the whole of Europe.
I cannot stress how important it is that you communicate your honest opinions and suggestions as to what is the proper way to manage these caves to mcarbonell@dgmambie.caib.es and participacio@xarxanatura.es and marcialbardolet@gmail.com .
If the PG1 Plan Coves is approved as is without your comments, page 58 and 59 give blanket authority to one individual to do as it pleases in terms of setting access rules/requirements:
Page "6.2. MEDIDAS Y ACCIONES REGULADORAS" pag. 58 y 59 point f.:
"f) El acceso a las cuevas para realizar actividades de espeleolog#a y de investigación cient#fica es una actividad autorizable. Mediante una resolución de la dirección general competente en espacios protegidos red Natura 2000 se estableceran los periodos de acceso temporal, el número de personas por grupo y dia y los requisitos necesarios requeridos, según la cueva, para prevenir que las visitas puedan provocar afección negativas a los hábitats y especies de interés comunitario. Todo ello sin perjuicio de la preceptiva autorización de los propietarios del terreno por donde se deba pasar para acceder a la entrada de la cueva."
I sense the urgency and the passion with which you are stating the case.
As this forum is predominantly accessed by Americans (aka mostly people that only speak one language) do you think there would be an advantage to posting an English translated version in order that responses might be more forth coming?
Curious, will responses written in English be as impactful?
Mallorca is quite an international location with a large airport and ports and widely visited by Americans and other English speaking persons from all over the world. 50% of the residents are foreigners (off the top of my head, I reserve to change/check the figures), largely British and Germans.Quote:
Originally Posted by diveconjeff
Mallorca receives very large EU subsidies and it uses them to develop its infrastructure (airports and roads...), and it does a very good job with this money (it is well organised and easily accessible with direct flights from all over the world).
I suspect it would not be in the interest of the Gobierno Balear to ignore entirely the opinion of Americans, Germans, British, Italians... whichever language they send their opinion in.
Of the whole PG1 document, the relevant parts in respect of access to the caves is pages 58 and 59.
Of those two pages, the key part is section "f."
Basically, the Gobierno Balear wrote a massive document, but in that document it omitted to say, such that the public could have a say, as part of a proper Public Consultation, it omitted to say what the requirements actually are for accessing these caves.
Instead, it gave itself, without public oversight or consultation, the right to determine at a later date what these requirements will be.
The rough translation of clause f. is
"f ) Access to the caves for speleological activities and scientific research is a licensable activity. By means of a resolution by the competent general management of protected areas Natura 2000 network, it shall be decided the periods of temporary access, the number of people per group and day and the required eligibility, this in order to prevent visits which may have a negative impact on the habitats and the species of Community interest condition, all without prejudice to the permission of the owners of the land through which it must pass to access at the entrance of the cave. "
The Federacion Balear de Espeleologia has thus far taken control of these caves granting access to divers without cave diving training and valid insurance with the President of the Federacion Balear de Espeleologia being one such untrained cave diver accessing these caves.
So, it is a bit of a mess and because there is a Public Consultation this is the opportunity to get it right, for Mallorca, and all those other autonomic regions of Spain, and other regions of Spain and Europe who will equally have to follow suit come up with a formal Management Plan to comply with the EU wide Directives to protect these caves.
Democratic participation can help.
My opinion is that divers should access these caves provided they have Full Cave training (completed certification prior to accessing the caves) and valid insurance, and this is my only suggestion to them (if they can't get that, they just can't get it).
The more sensible and honest suggestions from individual cavers and cave organizations reach the Gobierno Balear, the less likely that they will (or can) get it too wrong.
This video was posted on YouTube by the Balearic Caving Federation.
Scroll to 3'20, and you will realise how much these people are concerned by cave protection ...
http://youtu.be/cyOu089ZO-c
I think that was done on purpose for the TV program (re-posted on youtube) to show the viewer (normally not cave trained) the risks of cave diving (i.e. silting).Quote:
Originally Posted by FredMgt
Do not come to the conclusion that all Mallorquin are bad divers and unconcerned about cave conservation and safety.
By far the vast majority are incredibly good divers and explorers (not to say that their skills could not be improved, we can always get better). Some produce invaluable piece of true scientific research (and these are less than the fingers in one hand).
A very small minority (1 maybe 2, and a friend or two) who unfortunately have taken control of the caves are to say the least very ignorant of modern cave diving techniques and safety - ignorant of "best practice." Ignorant of their own national and local legislation and regulations. They put the cheapest way to do things ahead of safety, which means they do not want to pay for training (yet they expect me and other visitors and fellow Mallorquin divers whom they view as rivals to comply with their draconian rules).
They break their own rules which they expect other Mallorquin as well as us to obey without discussion.
Then, if a group of divers (Mallorquin) goes diving what they believe is THEIR own personal caves, they make formal criminal reports to SEPRONA - the Guardia Civil - against fellow Mallorquins.
It is the case of these poor divers who went breath-hold diving in a cave from the sea - BUT that happened to be the playground of the President of the Federacion Balear de Espeleologia.
So, what did he do?
He dives without cave training and valid insurance and goes and reports to the police that these poor people from the sea breath-holding diving had broken the law for entering his cave - the Cova des Ases.
---- Mensaje original ----
Asunto: DENUNCIA actividad en la Cova des Ases
Fecha de env#o: 17/09/2014 15:02
De: Federació Balear Espeleologia <federaciobalear@gmail.com>
Para:
CC:
En referencia a este articulo publicado por APNEA MALLORCA
http://www.apneamallorca.com/2014/09...l#comment-form
en donde se describe la realizacion de una actividad de este club deportivo en la cova des ases
La Cova des Ases es una cueva protegida a nivel de la EU cono LIC ( lugar de Importancia Comunitaria) ES5310043 y por ello cualquier visita debe contar con la preceptiva autorización de la Conselleria de Medi Ambient y aun más para la realización de la actividad que habéis desarrollado que implica un claro riesgo tanto para la seguridad de las personas como para la integridad de los espeleotemas y fauna que alberga la cueva.
Por todo ello esta Federacion Balear de Espeleologia y en el marco del proyecto que lleva a cabo con la Fundación Biodiversidad del Ministerio de Medio Ambiente y con la Dirección de Medi Natural de la Conselleria de Medi Ambient del Govern Balear sobre protección y conservación de las cuevas LIC de Baleares presentará la correspondiente denuncia para que se averigüe y proceda en su caso si esta actividad estaba debidamente autorizada.
No queremos decir con ello que no se puedan visitar las cavidades protegidas como LIC de Baleares sino que cualquier clase de visita debe contar con su preceptiva autorización y de esta manera establecer las pautas poder garantizar la conservación de los frágiles ecosistemas que albergan y que el impacto de la actividad sea el m#nimo posible
Lista cavidades LIC http://cuevasprotegidas.federaciobal.../cavidades.php
Guiem Mulet
Presidente de la FBE
So were the flutter kicking split fin parts intentional too?
Different people use different equipment and techniques. Just because you were taught the modified frog kick and to use a stiff fin (I was and that is what I use) does not necessarily mean it is the only and right way to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hammer
There are a lot of divers in Europe who don't use stiff fins and the modified frog kick and it works for them.
That specific portion of the video I am pretty confident they were both deliberately kicking to silt the cave.
I thought the part you referenced appeared intentional, regardless I'll take your word for it. I was referring to a whole bunch of other parts of the video.Quote:
Originally Posted by gianaameri
I only looked at that exact portion because that is what was brought up as an example of poor diving/skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hammer
If you have another exact portion you think is indicatory of poor skills/behavior, I'll look at it.
Some of the best cave divers in Europe are the anti-thesis in looks and style from the norm in North and Central America, yet they achieve a lot, and there is a lot to learn form them.
It is just a matter of understanding why they do what they do and use what they use.
Split/soft fins, I have yet to understand and try for caving, but they do actually work in practice and have dived with many cave divers in Europe using them.
Nice picture from Toni Cirer of Grup Nort de Mallorca from yesterday's diving activities in EU protected cave Cova de Pas de Vallgornera (LIC Núm: ES5310049 Xarxa Natura 2000 D.92/43/CEE):
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...7538712&type=1
Thank-you Toni for sharing your beautiful pictures of these caves with us. You have got talent!
I have sent yesterday in to to the Gobierno Balear a few more comments, mainly the application of a number of national laws requiring for scientific diving higher levels of insurance and diving skills than for recreational diving.
My main purpose is to try get at least through that for cave diving in these beautiful EU protected caves one should at least do so after full cave training and with proper and valid insurance, and not like the President of the Federacion Balear de Espeleologia and some of his friends do (no formal cave diving training), breaching common sense, best practice, and local and national laws and regulation.
My further comments:
6. Que en el caso de la práctica del buceo cient#fico, el seguro de accidentes y de responsabilidad civil, tanto del equipo cient#fico como del personal auxiliar, deberá cubrir, además, operaciones de rescate hasta un valor de quince millones (15.000.000) de pesetas, o noventa mil ciento cincuenta y un (90.151 euros) y que el el organismo competente de la Comunidad Autónoma ANTES de autorizar la actividad verifica el cumplimento de este requisito.
7. Que en el caso de la práctica del buceo cient#fico en cueva LIC donde la distancia de la superficie/entrada es mayor de 55 metros, los componentes del equipo cient#fico podrán ser autorizados para la realización de inmersiones superiors a 55 metros, siempre que se sometan voluntariamente a las normas establecidas para el buceo profesional.
8. Que en el caso de la práctica del buceo cient#fico en cueva LIC, el organismo competente de la Comunidad Autónoma debe informar SEPRONA y SEPRONA debe verificar antes de el inicio de las actividades autorizadas que el equipo cientifico y el personal auxiliar tienen a. autorizacion de el organismo competente de la Comunidad Autónoma, b. titulacion de espeleobuceo de el maximo nivel (cual “Full Cave”) y c. seguro de acidente y responsabilidad civil efectivamente valido por las actividades autorizadas.
9. Que en el caso de la práctica del buceo cient#fico en cueva LIC, que se cumple el ORDEN de 20 julio 2000 de el Ministerio de Fomento.
The relevant law: https://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2000/08/...8240-28240.pdf
Please send in to the Gobierno Balear your honest and sincere opinion as to what best practice should be to protect these beautiful caves. I am focusing with my comments on the legislative aspects because some local idiot is only what they will understand (common sense is beyond their reach).
I had the time to watch the whole video.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hammer
Also, I have the benefit to have dived with some of the divers seen on the video and others who use soft/split fins and the flutter kick.
You can see as well in the video that at some point they change kick. It is no longer flutter, but it is a strange/different kick with one fin horizontal and the other at an angle and both knees bent.
What I have observed is that the flutter kick if used away from the bottom or silty area is fine (it works). Then, if it is modified in the restriction silty area is also fine (but in my opinion not as good as the modified frog-kick with rigid fins).
Lots of people, top cave instructors included, use soft/split fins and flutter kick in Europe.
Check this video out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bHs...&feature=share
For those interested in reading the Draft Management Plan and send their comments in to the Gobierno Balear to help them determine the requisites for access to thes caves (i.e. only the "Open Water" President of the FBE and his friends, or all qualified divers with Full Cave and valid Cave Dive Insurance, or only "scientific" expeditions whatever that means...) - to make matters more difficult the Gobierno Balear has moved the link and it directs you now to participate to a different Management Plan for Menorca, rather than the caves we are talking about here in Mallorca.
The new correct direct link to view the Management Plan for Mallorca (i.e. Sa Gleda, Vallgornera...) is http://xarxanatura.es/plans-de-gestio/ .
If you do nothing, and do not contribute, it will be business as usual.
The "Open Water" President of the FBE and his friends can do what they want, and anybody he does not like (including fellow Mallorquins) will be asked to submit to his draconian rules which he does not have to follow, and pay his guides to access caves (if and when they feel like it and are available).
The "guides" do not hold Professional guide qualifications (other than for one who is a cave instructor and gladly will charge you for his services through the FBE) and do not have professional "civil liability" insurance (meaning at best if they have valid insurance to cover third-party liability the insured limit will be very little... and they are largely penniless and would not be worth your pursuing a claim either against them or the "Open Water" President of the FBE or the FBE... dissenting members of the FBE like me are not personally liable, but those who do not dissent and agree/participate to these policies are).
By all means, I know all these people and they are very nice guys (I get the occasional email reminder to "mind my own business" from some).
I hear a group of Polish divers is being allowed to visit Cova de Pas de Vallgornera for money and with the President's guides of choice (don't forget to ask for a VAT Invoice which you will not get).
I have asked for the Statute and the Accounts (from 2008 to date) from the Federacion Balear de Espeleologia, but both father and son (that is President and Vice-President) have refused to date to provide them (despite my being a member of the FBE).
The civil liability insurance of the organization (in case some paying tourist gets hurt slipping in the dry section of the cave, or is lost by the "expert" local guides) - the actual Insurance Policy/Certificate - is nowhere to be found (well, they agreed to provide it to me, but they don't have it...).
This is Spain (all normal for the Gobierno Balear).
Please participate, if you can, and ask fellow cave divers to do the same!
DO NOT click on the link "Participa" insofar that will throw you off into Menorca land (different island, different Management Plan), but email your comments to mcarbonell@dgmambie.caib.es and participacio@xarxanatura.es and marcialbardolet@gmail.com .
DO ASK for confirmation by return email that your comments/suggestions have been received and will be given due consideration (or they will just hit the delete button or ignore them altogether).
Well, that sucks. They have the same rules in Germany, only a few "chosen" people get to dive the real caves we have, of which there is like 2 in the country. It's too dangerous for everybody apart from a few "experts". Those guys must be truly amazing divers.
Thank for working on that stuff Gian. I am going to shoot these people an email. Should I put in anything in particular or just that it would be a bummer, if they close it down and that the caves bring people to the the island and so on?
Do you think it would make sense to come up with some sort of prepared text? We could put that in the main section of this forums and ask people to send that email.
I must admit that I find it hard to work through the google translation of those texts you posted. I very much appreciate that you are taking care of this though.
My main problem is people diving without cave diving training and valid insurance - it causes damage to these fabulous caves and it is a massive risk for other divers as well.
Plainly put - it is stupid.
Plus, if these people get hurt, they will be the first to blame you, and claim on your insurance (and involve you in investigation and legal proceedings and their buddy local policeman will s. you as much as he can).
The key difference between German caves and these caves in Mallorca is that there is BILLIONS of Euros spent by the EU (my and your taxpayer money) to supposedly protect these caves (and other habitats of EU wide importance).
This money goes to the Gobierno Balear and then to organizations like the FBE (and other b.s. semi-private organizations) - and do they do something good for the caves???
F. NO.
EURO 6.1 BILLION OF TAXPAYER MONEY SPENT PER YEAR - http://ec.europa.eu/environment/natu...g/index_en.htm - DOING WHAT FOR THESE CAVES?
Just send in your honest comments and suggestions to the Gobierno Balear.
Make them re-draft their silly and pointless Draft PG1.
Then, they have to send it, re-drafted or not, for approval up to the EU Body ( Natura 2000 http://ec.europa.eu/environment/natu...0/index_en.htm ) overseeing all this juicy money the local politicians are after ($$$$$$ that is what it is all about to them).
Then, they might get a formal complaint if it is still not done properly here:
http://ec.europa.eu/environment/lega...complaints.htm
and rather than $$$$$ to split with their local buddies, they will get fines.
BUT first things first... please help them by sending your comments as part of the Public Consultation process (you do not send comments, they will assume they got it right, and business as usual they go cash their EU cheques).
... and I think LIC caves in Mallorca is rather different from boring German flooded mines.
Vallgornera alone is a national monument and the cathedral of all EU caves (not a boring mine).
He is not talking about the mines. These can be accessed by paying. He is talking about our real flooded Caves in the Country..Quote:
Originally Posted by gianaameri
But you are right as far as I know they do not get EU subsidies there..
Why would they .. they are in Germany and Germany is supposed to pay for EU and not receive Money ;)
Nevertheless it is a similar issue..
It is diving for scientific purposes by a strongly restricted Group..
Nobody else gets to see the Beauty..
Nevertheless. The subsidies is a good Point and gives us as not Balearic stakeholders some wheight in the Argumentation.
This is what I will use as the main Argumentation line.
A concerned EU taxpayer wanting to make sure the Money spent is used in the right way and will not look away!
Could you please remind me of the Deadline again since due to work I do have a time issue momentarily..
Thank you for your hard work Gian! I've got time to spare next week and will send off more emails.
I would be interested to hear the opinions of anyone other than Gianaameri, who is familiar with this situation.
We were on the island for a week in June and met a few of the people, including Gian.Quote:
Originally Posted by lv2dive
First of all, getting permission to dive Sa Gleda from the FBE was not easy. Virtually all of the information online is in Spanish, or worse still, in Catalan. The FBE guys don't really speak English either, so google translate is your friend when sending them emails.
It took us almost a week to get permits because the process stalled again and again for minor (and sometimes silly) reasons.
Sa Gleda is split into several sections and our choice of them was extremely limited because supposedly other people had already reserved access to all these sections. The astonishing fact was, we were the only divers in the cave for all the days we had made reservations for.
We went back to the cave later during the trip to chat with people and the locals that were diving it didn't even bother to request permits.
If you ask me, the whole FBE/LIC system seems to be a complete mess.
They all had permits the period I dived, but no one dived according to the limit of the permit (other than the only one idiot which was me, but then again my permit was quite broad).Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
This means that in the section I was diving (silty, messy lines, under exploration, 1800 meters from the entrance) there were also other divers who did not have a permit to be there (their permit was for about the first 600 meters of the cave).
Then there were people that week with permit doing courses and then more people doing videos/pictures (of the silt by then).
TOO MANY divers for safety.
Of course the people doing courses did not declare they were doing courses when they asked for the permit and the people doing videos, one of them, had only a Cavern C-Card (there is no Cavern in Sa Gleda, the small entrance lake itself can silt to zero vis. and does).
The Cavern C-Card person was diving Vallgornera last week-end (with the permit of the FBE of course). There is no natural light in Vallgornera (you enter a locked door at the surface, lock it behind you from the inside, it is now pitch black, you go down a 10 meter vertical ladder, and then about another 100 meter of dry-section, some nearly vertical, and then you reach the entry lake of about 3 meter by 2 meter).
This is what the permit looks like:
http://www.rebreathermallorca.com/video/SG/permiso.pdf
This is the gate to Vallgornera and some nice views of the caves:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=U...layer_embedded
In the permit it states:
"Examinada la documentación aportada por los solicitantes relacionados , la FEDERACIÓN BALEAR DE ESPELEOLOGÍA verifica que poseen la titulación y el seguro necesarios para realizar la actividad de espeleobuceo en la Cova de Sa Gleda." (meaning the FBE declares it checks C-Cards and Insurance of all divers required for cave diving).
That is B.S.
The FBE did not check anything and authorizes unqualified divers to enter these EU protected caves including without valid personal accident insurance and without valid third-party civil liability insurance (notably the same President self-authorises himself to dive in such manner).
I only discovered this in April 2014 and reported it to the FBE (ignorant of many other things at that point in time).
14 july 2014 we had a meeting at the FBE present all the cave working groups on the island and we agreed (all working groups) 2 things:
1. Minimum requirement of Full Cave certification to access these caves
2. to be held for at least 6 months before applying for a permit to enter the caves
The President of the FBE DID NOT include what was agreed at that meeting by all working groups and himself in the new rules and most importantly DID NOT even attempt to enforce it.
The FBE issued permits for the end of August to two divers, one with no cave training and no valid insurance, and another only with cavern training and no valid insurance.
So, YES the system is fake. The rules apply only to some and not to others. It serves no purpose to protect caves and cavers. It is only an obstruction to prevent access to the caves. It is not an obstruction created by the Gobierno Balear, but by an individual who has taken control of these caves and dives them without cave training and valid insurance.
So, please help the Gobierno Balear to write good rules which do not prohibit access and do protect these caves (then they can go and cash and split with their friends the EU subsidies, but only after they have done a good job).
The limit is 30 days from the date the PG1 Plan Coves was published.
I asked the Gobierno Balear to acknowledge my suggestions 1. to 9. by return email, but they did not.
I now asked my lawyer to formally present them to the Gobierno Balear and get a Protocol Number to attest my suggestions 1. to 9. have been duly received by the Gobierno Balear.
If they do not acknowledge your correspondence by return email, print it and send it by Registered Post (which will give you evidence of receipt by the Gobierno Balear) to:
Marcial Bardolet Richter, Dirreccio' General Medi Natural, Gremi de Corredors 10 Palma Spain 07009
There are discussions in other forums with opinions voiced by others as well, including the President of the FBE and their firends. The links are:
http://www.federaciobalearespeleolog...opic.php?t=405
http://www.forobuceo.com/phpBB3/view...?f=70&t=130751
Please participate to this Public Consultation. There is BIG MONEY involved - my and your tax-payer money.
I guess Gian has somewhat of a bad rep here on this board. I met him once, have exchanged emails with him in the past and he seems like a nice guy. The info he has given me where accurate as far as I can tell and I appreciate his help.Quote:
Originally Posted by lv2dive
Still, here goes what I know firsthand:
When I found out about the caves on Mallorca in 2008 or so there was hardly any information on the web or elsewhere. I took me a few months to gather information and I had to actually go and look for the entrances since I only knew were an entrance "should" be. It was kind of a "don't ask don't tell" situation, officially it was not “really” allowed. You could go and maybe give a bottle of wine to the land owner and nobody seemed to care. I was just not regulated, probably like in Florida back in the day.
In recent years, more and more stuff started popping up on youtube and web in general, also, cave diving got more popular. In the last 3 or 4 years everybody and their mother seemed to be getting cave training, at least in Europe... and it got busy around the caves and all of a sudden it wasn't so nice and quiet anymore.
I think the idea with the permits was well intended but they couldn’t really enforce it. End of story as I see it is: A few people that don't now how to behave themselfs screwed it up for everybody.
As for the emails: Maybe it's is not the best idea to argue that they getting all this money and therefore we demand stuff (I don't want to be the German douche that goes around and tells the spanish people what to do) but rather try to give reasons why it would be good for the island to have stuff regulated like they do in the US. If we can come up with a good position or statment, maybe we could get people to take part in an online petition or something like that. Any opinions on that?
I have a bad rep because I got balls as large as brain and a cave diver from Florida does not like me (funny he got kicked out of any relevant decision-making role by his peers).Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
In part my bad rep. is deserved because I come through as arrogant, when I am right (F-IT!).
The only thing that the Spanish people will understand is a. the Law, and b. form over substance (i.e. strict adherence to deadlines and THEIR self-serving rules...).
Even then, they will ignore you if what you tell them does not suit them, but they won't if the letter comes from your lawyer (one of 'em).
However, it does help to approach them with honest suggestions as to how to regulate/run things.
Be honest, speak from your heart, tell them what you think.
This is what a Public Consultation should be about.
Then, let 'em F-UP if they still want to (they cannot do much more damage than they have already done).
The next step is what happens here:
http://ec.europa.eu/environment/legal/law/press_en.htm
...but first things first, please participate whichever way you like and as freely as you feel (get Merkel to explain it to them, I did on another issue and the ECJ has recently condemned Spain and they will soon hopefully repay me Euro 100k of stolen tax money with interest and damages) to this Public Consultation.
Leaving personal feelings aside from this post, in your email/letter... please say why you have an interest to participate (i.e. you are a certified cave diver and these places are protected by the EU... you want to visit them... whatever - any interest).
This to satisfy:
Art#culo 31. Concepto de interesado.
1. Se consideran interesados en el procedimiento administrativo:
a) Quienes lo promuevan como titulares de derechos o intereses leg#timos individuales o colectivos.
b) Los que, sin haber iniciado el procedimiento, tengan derechos que puedan resultar afectados por la decisión que en el mismo se adopte.
c) Aquéllos cuyos intereses leg#timos, individuales o colectivos, puedan resultar afectados por la resolución y se personen en el procedimiento en tanto no haya reca#do resolución definitiva.
2. Las asociaciones y organizaciones representativas de intereses económicos y sociales, serán titulares de intereses leg#timos colectivos en los términos que la Ley reconozca.
3. Cuando la condición de interesado derivase de alguna relación jur#dica transmisible, el derechohabiente sucederá en tal condición cualquiera que sea el estado del procedimiento.
from https://www.boe.es/buscar/act.php?id=BOE-A-1992-26318
The Gobierno Balear cannot ignore your plea because the King of Spain JUAN CARLOS I and the EU says so:
https://www.boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-2006-13010
Please participate!
Frankly, I have no idea who you are talking about and don't care. When I don't know someone personally, I am left to base my opinion solely on posts from this and other boards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gianaameri
You, Bent, Nakatomi... are all correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by lv2dive
Myers Briggs Psychometric:
http://www.ecml.europeancapitalmarke...iles/frame.htm
has shown that I have a capacity for great personal warmth as well as considerable insensitivity.
So, it really depends which side of me you meet and when.
Not to mention I train with these people:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4VcSduUJbY
and they use split fins :rollguy
Now that completes the off-topic discussion about me, please consider (irrespective as to whether you have a like or dislike about me) on the pure merit of the current predicament, and the opportunity given by a Public Consultation, please consider making a contribution to help the Gobierno Balear to make a good decision in the interest of cave conservation and fair and equal access to these natural beauties in Europe.
Since this thread started about Sa Gleda being Closed and there is a lot of confused and scattered information about the issue of the Public Consultation, I have started a new thread here:
http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...197#post266197
Same information has been and will be placed on other forums.
Please spread the word in other forums as well and with your friends in person and by email and participate.
The effort is already having some positive effects.
Sa Gleda re-opened today:
http://covasagleda.esconatura.com/so..._normativa.php
BUT only for those with the "Licencia Federativa" which may mean open only for members of the Federacion Balear de Espeleologia.
Sa Gleda today (picture courtesy of the "Open Water" President of the FBE, the man who can't organise his own socks and is trying to get me booted from the FBE :rollguy) :
Hola a todos
Soy Guiem Mulet apodado por Gian como “the "Open Water" President of the FBE, the man who can't organise his own socks and is trying to get me booted from the FBE “. Escribo en español porque mi ingles no es nada bueno.
No quiero entrar en una discusión sin fin como la que está llevando a cabo el señor Gian directamente con nuestra federación, solo quiero instarles a que pidan al señor Gian la verdad de todo este proceso que está llevando a cabo de desprestigio, acoso, amenazas y denuncias contra la Federación Balear de Espeleolog#a (FBE), contra sus federados y contra sus clubes.
La FBE y sus clubes de espeleobuceo cuentan con un prestigio internacional que por mucho que el señor Gian se empeñe no se lo quitará.
El señor Gian a vertido y sugue vertiendo acusaciones de todo tipo contra mi persona, sobretodo. Y ahora está llevando a cabo una campaña para anular a todos los clubes de espeleolog#a de Baleares con el objetivo de facilitar la entrada de su grupo internacional en la administración balear cosa que será del todo imposible.
El señor Gian ha iniciado una guerra que no puede ganar contra la espeleolog#a en Baleares y se sirve de mentiras para captar los socios para su grupo.
Pregúntenle por qué inició esta guerra contra sus amigos espeleólogos mallorquines. No creo que les conteste con la verdad porque no le interesa pero yo s# que os voy a contar lo que desencadenó esta guerra de acoso y derribo que lleva a cabo.
Los clubes de espeleobuceo de Baleares están llevando a cabo trabajos de exploración de las cuevas subacuáticas de Mallorca desde hace varias décadas y hace unos años se unió a ellos el señor Gian sin ningún problema. Hasta que un d#a Xisco Gracia (jefe del grupo de espeleobuceadores) y yo (presidente de la FBE) recibimos un e-mail del señor Gian donde se nos informaba de que hab#a creado un grupo internacional de espeleobuceadores y que hab#a solicitado una autorización al gobierno balear para realizar trabajos de exploración durante un año en todas las cuevas LIC de Mallorca y que si le pod#a hacer el favor de mediar ante el gobierno balear para que le otorgasen rápidamente esta autorización. Naturalmente yo, como responsable de la FBE, le contesté que me parec#a bien pero que en Mallorca ten#amos grupos de espeleobuceadores muy bien preparados y muy cualificados que estaban realizando estos trabajos y que bajo mi punto de vista ten#an prioridad sobre cualquier grupo internacional. A partir de este momento empezaron los ataques y denuncias infundadas del señor Gian hacia mi persona y hacia la FBE.
Esta es la base de toda esta guerra que lleva a cabo el señor Gian contra la FBE
En la FBE nunca hemos dicho que no a nadie que nos haya solicitado entrar en nuestras cuevas, siempre que cumpla los requisitos minimos exigidos, es más, muchas veces perdemos nuestro tiempo acompañando a estas personas para que puedan disfrutar más de la visita. Pero ahora y gracias a las denuncias sin fundamento del señor Gian a las administraciones de Baleares esto ya no es posible en la cueva de Sa Gleda. La cueva que el señor Gian cree que es suya porque siempre se refiere a ella como “mi cueva”.
Si alguien quiere preguntarme algo, con gusto le contestaré.
Espero y deseo que esta guerra que lleva el señor Gian contra la FBE no se convierta en un conflicto con las demás personas que siempre serán bien acogidas si quieren visitar las cuevas de Mallorca.
Gracias por su tiempo
Very good-news at last!
Sa Gleda was re-opened today, but only for some.
So, to update on the situation on Sa Gleda.
The cave was closed 02 September 2014 due to wholly unsubstantiated accusations by the FBE President Guiem Mulet alleging that the cave was damaged and there were risks due to the Property passing the keys to anybody who asked for them.
I was exploring Sector Ponente of Sa Gleda that day and was the last person to dive it (legally) since its closure, after 10 continuous years of exploring and caretaking of the cave.
The FBE accusation was entirely false, insofar those who accessed the cave (i.e. to run cave courses for profit, laying training lines and damaging formations, with only open water certifications...) were at the time submitting to a unapproved and unauthorized "licensing" system set-up by the FBE President Guiem Mulet through his private personal company, and were demanding access and keys from the Property displaying a written "License" issued by the FBE - when the FBE had no explicit legal right to issue any such License on behalf of the Balearic Government for Cova de Sa Gleda (the only Licensing authority is the Direccion General de Medio Ambiente).
This same "licensing" system was in place for Cova de Pas de Vallgornera and was shut-down after a 9 month long investigation by SEPRONA (the environmental arm of the military police Guardia Civil).
Cova de Pas de Vallgornera last year was "precintada" (seized and locked by the authorities) and the FBE President ordered to return the keys of the cave.
Relevant acts of government, reference number, and dates:
638/15 30/09/2016 canvi de clau de la cova des pas de Vallgornera
638/15 17/10/2016 Acta material que hi ha i que falta cova Vallgornera
638/15 24/10/2016 Recollida de mostres i precinte Cova des pas de Vallgornera
638/15 24/10/2016 Obertura i desprecinte entrada Cova de pas de Vallgornera
638/15 04/11/2016 Resultats an?lisi de mostres aig?es cova del pas de Vallgornera, Llucmajor
4/16 02/12/2016 Danys a la cova del pas de Vallgornera
638/15 13/01/17 Desprecinte i precintat cova Vallgornera per investigadors UIB
638/15 14/01/17 Desprecinte i precintat cova Vallgornera
638/15 14/01/17 Precintat cova Vallgornera
638/15 13/02/17 Precintat entrada cova Vallgornera
638/15 11/03/2017 Tancament porta i precintat cova Vallgornera
638/15 25/03/2017 desprecinte entrada cova Vallgornera
Several attempts were made by the FBE President Guiem Mulet to obtain keys and control of the entrance to Cova de Sa Gleda to "manage" it as Cova de Pas de Vallgornera, but concerned cavers ensured this would not happen.
I have now accessed Sa Gleda the past three Saturdays under a local authority License issued to the UIB (the Balearic University) as part of a new group set-up by two public employees and "Doctors" thereto allegedly to carry out scientific work - this to continue exploration and topography of Sector Ponente of Sa Gleda which I was carrying out the day it was closed by the FBE.
The Sa Gleda gate chains have been replaced and so have the locks, since they were old and seizing, and had been altered to simulate they were closed and in working position, when instead they were set-up for repeated illegal entries since late 2014.
The keys remain in the responsible and proper control of the Property (the local landowner).
A "Register" requiring a signature for collecting and returning the keys has been put in place to counter any further false accusations against the Property.
License from the local authority, full cave c-card, insurance, medical dive certificate have to be placed on the parked car windscreen for the environment police to be able to run their own checks, this to stop a number of locals accessing the caves without proper training and certification (they believe they know it all without proper formalized training... and in any event rules do not apply to them) and some non-local instructors bussing in students/customers on pre-organised commercial tour packages to exploit commercially Sa Gleda and other EU protected caves (packaged tours of the "Mysterious Cenotes of Mallorca" openly advertised on the internet).
All efforts continue by a number of concerned cavers and cave groups not affiliated with the FBE or the UIB to ensure that responsible caving can be carried out in Sa Gleda by bona fide non-commercial and competent cavers, including those with no local affiliation (i.e. FBE and UIB...).
Time will tell what will happen next..., but I consider it a major achievement that the cave has been protected by preventing it from falling in the hands of those interested to exploit it commercially and that the cave is now reopened, at least initially for a privileged few to begin with for the purpose of research - but certainly not to run courses or cash paid commercial tour visits (and hopefully it will stay that way).
Bueno sr. Gian, todo este tiempo en el foro critic?ndome de que yo y "mis amigotes" eramos unos privilegiados y ahora va y usted se mete en el grupo.
Pero bueno no pasa nada solo una cosa por favor no vuelva a estropearlo, me ha costado el tener que sacar la artilleria pesada para que volviesen a tomar la iniciativa y tenerlos donde quer?a, as? que por favor no vuelva a cagarla, yo ha cambio me comprometo a no volverle a molestar.
Gracias por su colaboraci?n
Google translation:Quote:
Originally Posted by guiem
Good Mr. Gian, all this time in the forum criticizing me and me "my friends" we were privileged and now he goes and you get into the group.
But well nothing happens just one thing please do not spoil it again, I had to take the heavy artillery to take the initiative and take them wherever they want, That please do not go to s#!t again, I have change I promise not to bother again.
Thank you for your cooperation
--------------------------------------------
My comment:
It occurs to me that if you two would try to get along, access to caves would much easier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guiem
Estdo. Presidente,
en calidad de rapresentante del grupo Karst Exploration and Conservation Project tenemos varias Solicitudes pendientes de Resolucion de la Direccion General de Medio Ambiente... si nos puedes ayudar con la Conselleria hay varios miembros de esta agrupacion espeleologica Britanica que desean contribuir al conocimiento cientifico y espeleologico de Sa Gleda y de las otras cavidades de Mallorca.
Su colaboracion estaras muy apreciada.
Saludos,
Google translate:Quote:
Originally Posted by gianaameri
Estdo. President,
As a representative of the Karst Exploration and Conservation Project we have several pending Resolutions from the General Directorate of the Environment ... if you can help us with the Conselleria there are several members of this British speleological group who wish to contribute to the scientific and speleological knowledge Of Sa Gleda and of the other cavities of Mallorca.
Your collaboration will be greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Tiempo al tiempo,
Estropear 10 a?os de trabajo le costo relativamente poco sr. Gian
Arreglarlo nos costara mucho mas
No tenemos prisa, y seguimos a la espera de una Resolucion de la Direccion General de Medio Ambientes a las varias Solicitudes de nuestro miembros del Karst Exploration and Conservation Project finalisado al estudio espeleologico y cientifico de las cavidades de Mallorca, a incluir Cova de Sa Gleda.Quote:
Originally Posted by guiem
Seguimos a mantener infiormada las federaciones y asocianoes y agrupaciones locales (Federacion Balear Espeleologica, Societat Espeleologica Balear...) y a compartir cuevas y datos que recojemos.
Respectuosamente su aficionado "Gian"
Time to time,Quote:
Originally Posted by guiem
Spoiling 10 years of work will cost you relatively little Mr. Gian
Fix it will cost us much more
Quote:
Originally Posted by gianaameri
We are not in a hurry, and we are still waiting for a Resolution from the General Directorate of Environment to the various Applications of our members of the Karst Exploration and Conservation Project, finalisado to the speleological and scientific study of the cavities of Mallorca, to include Cova de Sa Gleda .
We continue to maintain the federations and associations and local groups (Federaci?n Balear Espeleologica, Societat Espeleologica Balear ...) and share caves and data that we collect.
Respectfully his fan "Gian"
Thanks for translating these, Forrest. Makes it much more interesting than trying to read it in a language that I don't speak.
+oneQuote:
Originally Posted by FW
Neither I nor Guiem control cave access.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrogenius
It is up to the Direccion General de Medio Ambiente, SEPRONA and GEAS (Guardia Civil), and the land-owner, and unfortunately two political party factions manouvering the lot behind the scenes, neither agreeing with each other.
If it was just a matter of Guiem and I to sit down at a table and come to a mutually satisfactory agreement, it could be done and would have been done already.