Trashing the caves, do you not feel any shame?

Yesterday I saw hundreds of up to 15’-20' long deep SPG tracks, along with an equal amount of tank and fin marks, past 4000' back in Jackson Blue in the Middle Grounds area. I'm convinced these traces were not there, at least not nearly as many, last time I dove there in February.
I stopped counting at one point and went into some of the silty side passages at the end of Middle Grounds, in the hope of escaping the chaos. Guess what, even these areas were full of such marks :-(

Whoever is doing this, what on earth are you thinking?
Stirring up the silt is bad enough as it is, especially since the passages there are huge. But leaving traces in the clay is nothing but shameful since they will stay there for longer than you and I will cave dive.

If you are reading this, you know exactly who you are. Get the proper training to make up for your complete absence of diving skills, before you not only destroy the caves for others, but endanger or even kill someone.
And while you’re at it, consider getting a DPV card too.

I could go on ranting forever, but I won’t. Everyone else, please let me know what you think could be done to fix this.

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

.. Everyone else, please let me know what you think could be done to fix this.

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Ask Michael Angelo for suggestions, he repaired the damage in Cow.

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Originally Posted by FW

Ask Michael Angelo for suggestions, he repaired the damage in Cow.

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Ironically there is a session Saturday at the NFSA's Advanced Skills Clinic that has Michael Angelo and myself going over cave restoration projects.

The real pity is that caves are treated as play grounds and not respected as being the delicate ecosystems that they are,so cave conservation is regarded fairly lowly. Cave divers need to be forewarned that for people who own these systems it is a great concern. I know of at least 3 systems that are inquiring about cave damage,with the solution limiting access eg. number of people per day. Time to wake up.

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Originally Posted by FW

Ask Michael Angelo for suggestions, he repaired the damage in Cow.

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Forrest, I'm afraid this may be way beyond repair. We are talking about an area the size of the Peacock cavern just covered with these marks.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Ironically there is a session Saturday at the NFSA's Advanced Skills Clinic that has Michael Angelo and myself going over cave restoration projects.

The real pity is that caves are treated as play grounds and not respected as being the delicate ecosystems that they are,so cave conservation is regarded fairly lowly. Cave divers need to be forewarned that for people who own these systems it is a great concern. I know of at least 3 systems that are inquiring about cave damage,with the solution limiting access eg. number of people per day. Time to wake up.

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I'll attend the workshop tomorrow and hope we may be able to talk about this.
Limiting access to a certain number of people may just slow the process a little, but it won't help fix the root causes. In my opinion only better training and the development of proper awareness and skillsets will help.

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

Yesterday I saw hundreds of up to 15’-20' long deep SPG tracks, along with an equal amount of tank and fin marks, past 4000' back in Jackson Blue in the Middle Grounds area. I'm convinced these traces were not there, at least not nearly as many, last time I dove there in February.
I stopped counting at one point and went into some of the silty side passages at the end of Middle Grounds, in the hope of escaping the chaos. Guess what, even these areas were full of such marks :-(

Whoever is doing this, what on earth are you thinking?
Stirring up the silt is bad enough as it is, especially since the passages there are huge. But leaving traces in the clay is nothing but shameful since they will stay there for longer than you and I will cave dive.

If you are reading this, you know exactly who you are. Get the proper training to make up for your complete absence of diving skills, before you not only destroy the caves for others, but endanger or even kill someone.
And while you’re at it, consider getting a DPV card too.

I could go on ranting forever, but I won’t. Everyone else, please let me know what you think could be done to fix this.

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I haven't been back to that area in nearly 5 years, but there were scratch marks all over back then. Honestly I'm guessing a lot of this is older damage back from when people were swimming that far back.

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

I'll attend the workshop tomorrow and hope we may be able to talk about this.
Limiting access to a certain number of people may just slow the process a little, but it won't help fix the root causes. In my opinion only better training and the development of proper awareness and skillsets will help.

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I will look forward to talking to you.
You are right prevention is the best medicine,and having a better skill set too. Although the perception by noncave diving landowners is the way to reduce these problems is to reduce access-yes I have seen this in writing!!!!! Does it work? Yes, guided sites have less damage because the amount of traffic is less,and the guide keeps you away from very sensitive areas. These type of limitations go into place we only have ourselves to blame.

The real tragedy is how little or poorly we acknowledge cave conservation. Land owners , the people who own the places we access, have a strong concern. They even look at those Go-pro videos posted here and You Tube and question what they are seeing.

I think we can use these damning GoPro videos to our benefit. People should be shamed for poor form. They'll either stop posting the videos, which isn't bad if that's what the property owners are using against us. Or they'll consider their own form.

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Originally Posted by Greenwood_60

I think we can use these damning GoPro videos to our benefit. People should be shamed for poor form. They'll either stop posting the videos, which isn't bad if that's what the property owners are using against us. Or they'll consider their own form.

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Maybe so,if big brother is watching maybe they will be more concerned,or stop posting. I was surprised when I watched two videos by two exploration groups recently,and saw some alarming things in reference to cave conservation. If I and others voice our complaints will it stop these practices,or we will just see less video postings.

The bottom line is cave conservation in cave training needs to be less of a footnote that is breezed over,but a continuous part of the course and debrief. Only then will it be given high regard by that person in the future.

It's the 15 to 20 dive OW wonders who think that the next coolest class to take is cave diving and they find some crappy instructor to teach them. They barely know how to dive in OW and this makes me mad. I was a beginner once and although I had no real frog kick, it was some kind of hybrid thing that didn't silt anything up but it certainly didn't give me any propulsion. My instructor was a moron for not correcting it. Even so I never bounced off the cave floor nor put hand marks in the clay. I was very conscious almost paranoid about doing any damage to the cave and when accidental contact occurred to the side of a passage from a tank banging it I felt awful. It's disheartening to see huge gouges out of clay blanks and mud that don't need to be there. Most of the passages are huge and there is no need for anyone to be hugging the bottom. How it happens is poor trim and buoyancy. It's no wonder land owners don't want to admit squared away cave divers to their caves. They dont want them destroyed. Cave diving isn't a fad to be conqured it a journey of discovery into places very few humans will ever get to see. Unfortunately they will never see what true pristine cave passage looks like.swesw

I don't believe those people actually do know who you are talking about. I think they are oblivious or don't care.

I'm not sure how to make progress, cave instructors aren't even held to a higher standard and this seems like the logical and most important part of the puzzle.
Instructors can take children cave diving, abandon students and make crappy decisions and they are not sanctioned or in some cases even named.

If you spend a lot of time in Ginnie you will see instructors hitting the sides and bottom, students causing silt outs and all sorts of nonsense. One time I thought that ET had landed at the hill 400 jump, massive silt clouds with lights flashing around, it was wild. I blacked out and watched and thought "damn if that doesn't look exactly like the ET landing scene"...but no, it was just a cave instructor with his rebreather students pulling the reel.
We can't even agree that scootering and simulating/creating zero vis in twin cave is a bad idea.

I don't believe we are any better stewards to the environment than any other group; trash, catheters and damage in the caves may reflect a small subset however we fail at self policing and instructors will never really be held to a new higher standard as there is too much money and ego involved.

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Originally Posted by TracyN

It's the 15 to 20 dive OW wonders who think that the next coolest class to take is cave diving and they find some crappy instructor to teach them. They barely know how to dive in OW and this makes me mad. I was a beginner once and although I had no real frog kick, it was some kind of hybrid thing that didn't silt anything up but it certainly didn't give me any propulsion. My instructor was a moron for not correcting it. Even so I never bounced off the cave floor nor put hand marks in the clay. I was very conscious almost paranoid about doing any damage to the cave and when accidental contact occurred to the side of a passage from a tank banging it I felt awful. It's disheartening to see huge gouges out of clay blanks and mud that don't need to be there. Most of the passages are huge and there is no need for anyone to be hugging the bottom. How it happens is poor trim and buoyancy. It's no wonder land owners don't want to admit squared away cave divers to their caves. They dont want them destroyed. Cave diving isn't a fad to be conqured it a journey of discovery into places very few humans will ever get to see. Unfortunately they will never see what true pristine cave passage looks like.swesw

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Reinforces what I say. Cave conservation needs to be a key part of the training not a 10 minutes lecture and needs to be included in each dive. For example I passed a class and the students had their hand in the bottom silt and their instructor. I happened to hear the debrief and nothing mentioned about this being bad and how to correct it. We have to take responsibility too. If we are going through a cave and are touching the bottom,banging the walls etc, leave, not a good day or your skill may not match the passage diffiuculty.

I can look at the damage and do what I can but, we need owners permission (parks department?) and it needs to be documented with before/after and periodically in the months after. Also I am one person and not the solution for vandelism, poor conservation and skill awareness.

What is cave conservation?

I hate seeing the marks and damage, but just going leaves some impact. It can be minimized but not completely avoided. There's a thread about the Crypt where everybody says the caves comes down on you even if you are flawless. Only way to avoid things it to close down the sites and not going. We do need to get better and need better methods for training, educations, and self policing. It's still going to happen, but we can slow it down.

What is cave conservation? I think some marks in the silt misses the mark on conservation. To me it is something bigger. We have a lot of resources, but no direction for channeling them and making a bigger difference for our springs and our sport.

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Originally Posted by Ben M

What is cave conservation?

I hate seeing the marks and damage, but just going leaves some impact. It can be minimized but not completely avoided. There's a thread about the Crypt where everybody says the caves comes down on you even if you are flawless. Only way to avoid things it to close down the sites and not going. We do need to get better and need better methods for training, educations, and self policing. It's still going to happen, but we can slow it down.

What is cave conservation? I think some marks in the silt misses the mark on conservation. To me it is something bigger. We have a lot of resources, but no direction for channeling them and making a bigger difference for our springs and our sport.

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Ben you make some good points. Of course the only way you can avoid any damage is avoid any human contact,but there is a reasonable middle ground. Line in a cave is a path,and if we stick to the path then all attrition is limited to the path. Analogous to walking down a trail in a park,we enjoy the sites off the trail,but our contact is limited to the trail. Having an incidental fin contact and mark will happen,is unavoidable. I think the thing that bothers many is that we project ourselves as having a high level of conservation and received understanding in our cave class,but in reality no. Just like surveying used to be standard in a cave class,but no longer,cave conservation has become something to be breezed over,and not heard again. There has developed a lax attitude toward something future access can be determined by, for example the scooter trench at JB has become an acceptable landmark versus the eyesore that it is. You see people with limestone marks on the tanks laughing about "trashing the cave". I realize I am myopic on this subject. I have seen some very nice cave landmarks disappear over time eg. the cornflakes or insulation. The pity is I can only tell people about this great site because it is gone....

I'm thinking that runaway scooter trail in JB tops my list as the most outstanding diver inflicted damage I've ever seen.
That being said the amount of damage going up Hill 400 double lines ect is phenomenal, not to say it really got bad with the advent with the sidemount fad (Its a tool not a statement) but how can all the broken bits of rock strewn on the floor ever be repaired?

We are supposed to be all about risk management. Taking a scooter into a cave carries with it the risk of it running away and the risk of it getting out of control enough to cause damage no matter how good you are. And, we all (me included, but I am a wart on the a$$ of cave diving) take classes, buy scooters, and support the industry that 'encourages' it. I have NEVER seen a group of active cave divers protesting taking a scooter into a system. But, I have seen a lot of people moan about NOT being able to take one into certain systems.

Anyway, my point is that we seem to collectively support the risk and then complain about the consequences. I am not sure I get it. Do we think things won't happen? (This goes to the stay out if you want NO impact line of thought.) Deliberate vandals are one thing, extreme 'accidents' are another, where's the line in between?

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Originally Posted by scububa

Deliberate vandals are one thing, extreme 'accidents' are another, where's the line in between?

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There is an in between that we don't use,and sometimes not real good about understanding. For example in scootering that is referenced,do new scooter divers dial their scooter back while they are learning control versus warp factor 1? How often through delicate areas are we off the trigger and swimming? Are we frequently dialing the speed up or down to adjust to changing cave shape? Do we get off the scooter to check for buoyancy shifts to make sure the scooter isn't keeping us positively buoyant? These are errors I see commonly,and particularly worse in caves we define as ,"scooter caves",because there we expect to go wide open until the start-finish line. In JB people will run wide open,and we used to be off the trigger swimming or dialing back to a lower speed quite often in delicate areas. In swimming there is an in between area for extreme accidents versus vandalism- if you feel your self contacting the floor or ceiling,and can't get under control,then leave.

You all are dumb

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Originally Posted by Avs123

You all are dumb

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I can go along with that,but a solution to a serious problem is better.

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Originally Posted by Avs123

You all are dumb

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Based on your gallery pic one might be inclined to think you are defending yourself....

"serious problem" is being used in a relative fashion, Im thinking?

Bob

As previously stated, "Do you not feel any shame?" Obviously, the same Douchbag who had the "complete absence of diving skills" at the JB, then came over to Devil's and left usins a tasty present this past week. Looks like he might also possess a "complete absence" of Social Skills too. A juicy, sticky, condom cath and a huge piched loaf, all rolled-up in a wet Depends. Right there on the floor for all to see and step on. Cute. Real cute. It's no wonder that Ginnie Management puts all of us Cave Types in the category of "Difficult Persons."

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This Dickwad turned Ginnie into an EPA Superfund site. :smt013

I can tell you from firsthand experience that posting gopro videos of others acting like strokes in caves does not bode well for the poster........

I can't believe I'm going to say this...but here goes.

Does it really matter? Don't get me wrong, like the OP when I see SPG drag marks, hand prints, fin prints, and the like on the cave floor it makes my blood boil. I ask myself many of the same questions that other posters in this thread have already mentioned. I wonder what the individual was thinking, how in the world they got a cave card to begin with, and if they're aware of what they've done or not. I'd absolutely love it if we could find a way to get these sorts of things under control.

But when it comes to cave conservation I'm not sure that the elimination of "squirrel tracks" is really where our focus should be. While I agree that they shouldn't be tolerated, I think that the level of water flow in the aquifer and the quality of that water (nitrate levels, dissolved oxygen levels, etc) is of FAR greater concern. Again, I'm not saying that contact damage is permissible. But for my money, I might be willing to allow divers to get negative and walk through caves if it would solve the aquifer recharge and nitrate level issues we're currently seeing all over the state.

Squirrel tracks definitely piss me off but decreased flow, nitrate spikes and algae blooms scare the hell out of me. I wonder if the battle against squirrel tracks is the equivalent of rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Brian

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Originally Posted by Benthic

I wonder if the battle against squirrel tracks is the equivalent of rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

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I can't help but agree that you do have a point there.

The trouble with tolerating "squirrel marks" is that most likely divers who are unable to avoid hitting the bottom are also likely to be be hitting and damaging most the rest of the cave too...

Sent via

Brian, that I'd what I was going after but the meaning didn't quite make it out.

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Originally Posted by FLDVR

I'm thinking that runaway scooter trail in JB tops my list as the most outstanding diver inflicted damage I've ever seen.
That being said the amount of damage going up Hill 400 double lines ect is phenomenal, not to say it really got bad with the advent with the sidemount fad (Its a tool not a statement) but how can all the broken bits of rock strewn on the floor ever be repaired?

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During my cave course we were constantly reminded of trim, buoyancy and cave conservation with the understanding that touching anything other than a solid rock was a never event. This was earlier this year but I had been thinking about cave diving for quit some time, looking at film, and trying to grasp what it takes. I was astonished when I was finally able to dive in a cave and to see the horrible damage on the cave floor up hill 400 it made me sad.

The quiet of the rebreather always gives me a calm feeling as I observe the environment around me but when we came to this it was disturbing. I saw scratches, gouges, and even what looked to be hand prints from a clawing on the bottom.

Humans can be destructive if they are not aware. I certainly learned about cave conservation in my cave course, by my instructor who constantly was discussing it and by the horrific images I saw. There was certainly a lot of beauty in the caves though which will have me itching to return over and over. :-)

I hope the OP is able to make a difference and I support all his efforts along with the others involved.

Thanks
Garth

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Originally Posted by stickydeco

As previously stated, "Do you not feel any shame?" Obviously, the same Douchbag who had the "complete absence of diving skills" at the JB, then came over to Devil's and left usins a tasty present this past week. Looks like he might also possess a "complete absence" of Social Skills too. A juicy, sticky, condom cath and a huge piched loaf, all rolled-up in a wet Depends. Right there on the floor for all to see and step on. Cute. Real cute. It's no wonder that Ginnie Management puts all of us Cave Types in the category of "Difficult Persons."

This Dickwad turned Ginnie into an EPA Superfund site. :smt013

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I cannot help but laugh hysterically at this - alas, my maturity may be showing. I'm sorry, but some divers are sometimes so disgusting all I can do is laugh. I routinely hike back to Buford when I go for a walk out there. Almost every time I'm there, I pick up a ridiculous amount of trash, some left by divers, some not. I have a special folder of photos, because sometimes people leave things there that I simply won't pick up. I pick up almost everything, but there's just a limit to what one man can stomach in a given day. These photos would definitely have ended up in my gallery. I even find trash very deep in the woods out there (possibly blown in by wind) - including a jon boat, slowly deteriorating in the middle of that great vast swamp. By the way, stop leaving your shoes at the gate, and stop carving the word "BUFORD" into it, too.

And wash your hands.

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Originally Posted by gsxr1997

I can tell you from firsthand experience that posting gopro videos of others acting like strokes in caves does not bode well for the poster........

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I checked the passages again yesterday and here is just a little Gopro footage. This is not all of the damage, just some of the more impressive imprints.
As you may notice, there are several marks cause by a scooter in this video, a few of them with what looks like prop marks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ5AVwAuYjQ

Oliver, can we see the footage? ;)

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Originally Posted by Jason.knepper

Oliver, can we see the footage? ;)

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The video is embedded above, in case that doesn't work for you, here is the direct URL:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ5AVwAuYjQ

Ok, so I am ready to get yelled at but I believe that silt marks or any other signs of human activity in a cave cannot be avoided. Of course we want everybody to be careful and reduce their "footprint" but realistically it will only get worse unless you close the cave completely... which is not an option. And the reason it will get worse is because more time is passing and more people are entering the cave. And I don't mean yearly or an average but since day one when the first person discovered a passage until today, the number of people who have entered that cave continues to grow. It is a numbers game that cannot be avoided.

I have been caving diving since the early 90's and have laid new line and been in pristine caves that were recently discovered where there was no sign of human activity and many of these same caves are now routine dives for hundreds of divers a year, all of which have left some kind of mark. What do I think about it? It sucks but that's what happens when a cave is open to the public or to any kind of exploration. Of course we don't like to see handprints in the huge tunnels like hill 400 but I just expect that because that cave is accessible to thousands of divers a year. That is going to happen. I'm all for conservation and education but I believe these silt marks are unavoidable and will only get worse. If you think it is bad now, what do you think it will look like 50 years from now? We are only lucky enough to remember when those marks weren't there because we are relatively new in the era of cave diving exploration... 1970's to now? that is not a very long time in the big picture.

Here is another thought. Have you ever squeezed through an opening so small that you are practically buried in silt? How about trying to key your tanks, side mount or rebreather through a hole that just won't fit, meanwhile dragging scraping and banging and gouging the walls. What if you are an experienced diver and you find a new passage that is blocked by a small formation. Would you break that formation to get access to the new cave beyond? Of course you would. If you say no, you are either lying or have never experienced the thrill of laying new line or don't feel you want to. Is this all in the name of exploration? In sump diving, some caves we found were absolutely smooth with no tie off points so we would carry plastic stakes to bury into the silt to have a tie off. Some caves we have completely dug out passages with shovels to get access to new leads. What do you think about this for human footprint? Sucks huh? or does it? And this is from the highest level of experienced cave divers and explorers.

So bottom line? I feel that the unfortunate marks that you see in ginnie that were put there by inexperienced divers are really not the end of the world. Those areas are going to get marked up. Sure education and prevention is important to minimize damage but I am more concerned about the big picture of conservation. Ok cave police. Come and arrest me! My knee went into the silt!

I just thought very hard and found no reason whatsoever that would justify crawling around on the bottom of a passage that is 18' high.

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

I just thought very hard and found no reason whatsoever that would justify crawling around on the bottom of a passage that is 18' high.

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Could it be that almost everyone insists on running the line along the bottom?

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

I just thought very hard and found no reason whatsoever that would justify crawling around on the bottom of a passage that is 18' high.

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Based on your video, it may be that the diver/divers blew out the viz with dpv's going upstream, then had to get on the line and swim out, which resulted in floor damage where the line is low. That scenario would account for much of the damage seen along the line even in large passage.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Could it be that almost everyone insists on running the line along the bottom?

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True, however the average arm length is well above 2.5' :)

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Originally Posted by Jim Clark

Based on your video, it may be that the diver/divers blew out the viz with dpv's going upstream, then had to get on the line and swim out, which resulted in floor damage where the line is low. That scenario would account for much of the damage seen along the line even in large passage.

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I agree, that sounds like a possibility. Perhaps they blew the cave going in and made a lot of impact due to zero vis on the way out. While both of that is easily avoidable, it can probably happen.

However, and this I don't understand at all, one of them seemed to run the DPV on the way out (maybe in zero viz), into the silt, judging from the prop blade marks and scooter nose imprints.
Wasn't there a case this spring where someone hit the mud with a scooter in another cave on the Mill Pond? And blew the viz in that cave, lost the line, ripped off tie offs etc.?
There do seem to be some similarities, although they may just be entirely coincidental.

That is the mess that was made in Hole In The Wall in the century tunnel. What a fine mess it was. We attempted to fix it by cleaning it up but it was beyond our level of expertise. It was a job for Edd.

I heard some horror stories about this group. I was told they regularly came back with 200 - 500 psi and blew it off like it was nothing. If what I heard and have observed they won't be doing this long. They are a fatality waiting to happen. It is sad they have to destroy the caves just to commit suicide.

Tracy so you and Mike found the mess in Hole? Does this sort of follow the saying "the smeller the feller". :yawinkle:

It would be interesting to compare the damage in cave systems that don't permit scootering with those that do.

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Originally Posted by cloudboy55

It would be interesting to compare the damage in cave systems that don't permit scootering with those that do.

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I'd say Indian and Eagles Nest are more pristine than Cow, and they allow scootering. (Sarcasm, just attempting to point out that eliminating entry level training/divers would likely make more of a change)

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Originally Posted by jj1987

I'd say Indian and Eagles Nest are more pristine than Cow, and they allow scootering. (Sarcasm, just attempting to point out that eliminating entry level training/divers would likely make more of a change)

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Yes, and getting rid of tourists in Florida would make the traffic better. (Sarcasm, just attempting to point out that you have as much chance of getting rid of entry level/training divers as you do of shoving a greased BB up a wildcats ass)

OFG.... Damn your graphic analogies!!! LOL

And we wonder why landowners are reluctant to allow access to their caves?

We swam Twin Caves today and about 50' from the first fissure, coming in, there is the exact same shape scooter ditch and prop mark as in Jackson Blue.

Don't get me wrong. I agree with everyone else concerning diver damage, and think we have a responsibility to police our own. That being said, I have to wonder how many of these posters are really concerned for the caves, and springs. When you consider the lack of responses to the very serious threats that Tflaris so often shares with this board, it makes me think people really just like bashing other divers in an attempt to make themselves look good. It's kinda like worrying about a dent in your bumper when you have a rod knocking in your engine! I hope I'm wrong on this, but even if I am, it means we are rather dysfunctional when it comes to protecting our caves.
"Flame On".

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Originally Posted by Gene Powell

When you consider the lack of responses to the very serious threats that Tflaris so often shares with this board, it makes me think people really just like bashing other divers in an attempt to make themselves look good. It's kinda like worrying about a dent in your bumper when you have a rod knocking in your engine! I hope I'm wrong on this, but even if I am, it means we are rather dysfunctional when it comes to protecting our caves.
"Flame On".

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As single individuals, we are obviously very limited as to the degree of change and awareness we can help promote. So I agree about us being dysfunctional in the big picture.
Regarding the other part of your post, pointing the finger at people to make oneself look good, really?
Any diver that has been trained and performs more or less to the standards of a major agency, will be able to dive these areas of the cave without causing anything remotely resembling this damage.
As to my personal motives? Well, I have to admit that I am being egoistical. I prefer to look at silt and clay banks, not the reminders of the mishaps of other people.

I don't think caring about one aspect of cave conservation is any better or more noble than another aspect.

If water quality is your thing and you feel like you can make an impact in public awareness and policy, great! If you think you can make a difference in education to help minimize cave damage from divers, that's cool too! Both are important.

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Originally Posted by lv2dive

And we wonder why landowners are reluctant to allow access to their caves?

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You are right. I have reopened several cave systems that were closed,and presently working on a slow methodical process of another. The owner has a lot of concern because of how delicate the system is,and the ability to handle traffic. That presents a problem because the divers will have to be very squared away,but often in our opinion we are all that way. Self evaluation,and honesty is critical at this point. For example if I am in medium sized passage and I feel no fin contact with the wall,or incidental floor contact,then all is well. But,if the passage gets smaller,and suddenly my contact goes up significantly,then I need to end the dive and exit. How often is this done? Conventional-wisdom will tell you rarely. Is it possible that you may never reach the skill to see that passage,could be? I used to be a pretty good baseball pitcher,but by the time I reached high school I didn't have the skill to advance,and had an ERA off the charts. Reality hit home,and Cooperstown will not be in my future.

Other conservation issues were brought up to which have relevance. Water quality is diminishing in Florida,and significant concern for Peacock because so many tree farms have been converted to row crops. Heck,even Ginnie saw spikes in nitrates unheard of. These are behavioral changes that you hope the local population can embrace,but we can't hold a rural family responsible for broken Goethite,we have to take responsibility.

I am being honestly truthful when I say that questions about the conditions of the caves are asked all the time,and this condition has contingencies on our future level of access

Is moving mud around really "damage" It is a sign of human traffic to be certain, but damage? Will it not gradually smooth itself out with time? I am not making excuses here but "damage" would be the missing knot on the right side of JBs cavern we all tied our primary off on. How about the three inch deep gashes in the caverns first restriction from the primary lines over the years. This will never be the same and I would call this damage, but disturbed silt?

Who is to say what really happened that led up to this contact? Light failure, mask replacement, stuck dump valve. My modded SMS 100 dump valve had stuck open at least 5 times. This never led to contact with silt thankfully but I dropped to the rocks below every time.

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Originally Posted by stabservo

Is moving mud around really "damage" It is a sign of human traffic to be certain, but damage? Will it not gradually smooth itself out with time? I am not making excuses here but "damage" would be the missing knot on the right side of JBs cavern we all tied our primary off on. How about the three inch deep gashes in the caverns first restriction from the primary lines over the years. This will never be the same and I would call this damage, but disturbed silt?

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The bottom is not silt, it is clay. That will not fix itself. Although the damage may be masked by silt over the years, the depth of the marks will keep it visible for a very long time to come.
About the primaries in the cavern and the gashes, I wish the gold line could be extended at least into the deco room, I think it's too far back.

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Originally Posted by stabservo

Who is to say what really happened that led up to this contact?

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Maybe the person or people who did this might want to explain how it happened?

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Originally Posted by stabservo

Is moving mud around really "damage" It is a sign of human traffic to be certain, but damage? Will it not gradually smooth itself out with time? I am not making excuses here but "damage" would be the missing knot on the right side of JBs cavern we all tied our primary off on. How about the three inch deep gashes in the caverns first restriction from the primary lines over the years. This will never be the same and I would call this damage, but disturbed silt?

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Good question.

If the cave is high flow and rarely reverses,then it will more likely never repair itself in our lifetime. But,lets look at types of bottom too. If it is clay,then the mark is permenant,and in the case of Cow springs clay banks,the only repair ever performed was by Michael Angelo Gagliardi who used his talents in clay sculpture to repair. If the bottom is silt,then it enters solution,and is carried out of the cave. Many would say,this is great,no silt. The species that live in the cave depend on the silt bottom for protection and food source,so disturbing the bottom has disturbed an ecosystem. Low flow systems,especially ones that reverse have a chance to heal because river reversal will bring in organic material and tannins. While many people are frustrated that the spring rains have cost them diving access at many systems due to flooding,many of us are thankful because it helps to bring some "healing".

I am realistic too. Human contact is inevitable,but just as state parks have trails to contain where humans go to enjoy the scenary,we have lines which are trails. We call ourselves cave divers,but in reality for most we are divers in caves,we don't share many of the conservation regards as our dry caving component. If the cave diving community is unable to successfully teach cave conservation at the entry level and throughout,then learning lessons from the dry caving community may be helpful.

http://awesomegifs.com/wp-content/up...dead-horse.gif

John
I normally would agree with you about "beating a horse to death". One thing I have found is that we typically have a turn over of a "generation" of cave divers every 5 years, and I have found some organizations teaching cave diving expend little to no time teaching about cave conservation. Hence,there are some people on this forum that have not been exposed to cave conservation and the reason for its importance. If a thread like this, that is extended beyond its natural life has the effect of reaching that individual(s),then it has served a purpose-n'est-ce pas?

Kelly, this is not a serious conversation about conservation, whatever the definition of conservation might be on any given day.

I keep reading these threads hoping to find some positive discussion of problems and issues. If you want to have a serious conversation about conservation, fine I am all for it, but when you start a thread with "have you no shame?", you can't be naive enough to expect anything positive out of it.

Well said, John. Kelly, many of the naysayers on this thread have more than likely never seen pristine cave passage. They have no reference for their uninformed opinions. How to fix that is another one of life's mysteries. But at the same time, a bad education is the catalyst for bad behavior. As is a disregard for the fragile environment despite a good education (seen it too many times).

I saw these marks this week and yes it is the first time seeing pristine cave that has been marked up like this. It was an eye opening experience. It was a beautiful place and those marks really took something away from the landscape.

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Originally Posted by stabservo

I saw these marks this week and yes it is the first time seeing pristine cave that has been marked up like this. It was an eye opening experience. It was a beautiful place and those marks really took something away from the landscape.

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By the way, I have since learned that the passage the marks end in, is actually the Crinold Glory passage, whereas the tunnel parallel to and west of Crinold is called the Middle Grounds passage.

I noticed those parallel lines on the way out. Maybe p2500.

I am always available to take a look and see if a repeat is feasible, that is, unless we get to the point where I am doing so many I feel like a underwater cleanup service. Restorations are great but their not a preventative measure