OW Cavern Recommedations

Hey all,

Need a little advice.

Long story short-ish, I was down in the Ocala area back in April for work and hand the doubles with me as I had to kill a weekend. Weather was a little stirred up so I figured I'd hit a cavern. Did some down in Mexico a few years back - loved them.

Anyways, showed up at Ginnie to do the cavern they market to basic OW divers. I'm Tec 50, IDCS and a solo diving instructor. Was basically told that no buddy = no dive even as a solo instructor in tech gear in an OW environment. Yup, could have found a buddy, but long week of work and needed some peace. Figured I'd move on.

Anyways, passed by Extreme Exposure on my way out and stuck my head in. Nice Shop. Explained what happened, they nodded understandingly and suggested I head to Blue Grotto. I did and had a great time! Solo? No problem. Great dive and a really nice place.

So, In a few weeks (the 26/27) I'm in the same area and wouldn't mind seeing what else is out there. Any suggestions that are solo friendly?

As a note, please understand that I have no desire to exceed the conditions for which I've been trained. No desire to go into caves or out of light zones until certified to do so (yes, it's on the list). I've been diving and teaching long enough to know what happens when people do that.

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by divebutt

As a note, please understand that I have no desire to exceed the conditions for which I've been trained.

Thanks!

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You didn't mention that you were Cavern certified...

I'm not, but I stated I had no intentions of going anywhere that would require it. I was basically wanting to fart around for an hour in the OW friendly area then go for a beer.

This could go so many ways.

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Originally Posted by rddvet

This could go so many ways.

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I was thinking the same !!

Most of the caverns advertised as open water "safe" are on private property and you will have to play by their rules.

Thought I was opening a thread asking for an instructor reommendation, turns out it is someone asking for sites to violate his training.

I had some ow divers ask me at the ginnie ballroom if they could dive the cavern there. I said, "Who are you asking? PADI, or the park owners?"


It sounds like no cavern is within your training limits.

There are no OW Caverns. Once you have entered the overheard, it is no longer OW -- you are now inside the cavern. It sounds like you may want to exceed your "conditions for which I've been trained".

If you are interested, I would be happy to share some names of instructors for you to consider for a Cavern Class.

Lake Denton, Rainbow River, a Pool.

You will be here 2 days, signing up for a cavern class would not be a bad idea.

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Originally Posted by divebum10

There are no OW Caverns. Once you have entered the overheard, it is no longer OW -- you are now inside the cavern. It sounds like you may want to exceed your "conditions for which I've been trained". ...

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Yeah, OW Cavern is an oxymoron, but before everyone begins to pile on the OP in some sort of self-righteous, chest-thumping orgy, realize that it is the diving industry that has created these so-called "OW Caverns." Ginnie Ballroom, Blue Grotto, Paradise Springs (I am sure there are others), are all overhead environments that are "open" to OW divers.

We are told to NEVER go into an overhead, no matter how benign, until you have the training and certification. People on SB actually debate whether it is safe to go through coral arches as they are technically "overhead," but the above mentioned sites, which are certainly caverns with cave extensions, are open to OW divers by their owners.

Hey, "don't go into any overhead, watch "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die", give me 30 or 40 bucks, sign the waiver, don't take a light (unless you sneak one in - I won't watch), follow the thick heavy line, and try not to kill yourself."

No wonder many think that training limitations are a joke!

Divebutt,

There are many nice springs and at least two rivers that make for great diving solo with no overhead. I don't know their names off-hand...one spring has an old wheel from a steamboat (and a bit of wreckage) at 60 or 70 feet, another has fossilized whale bones in the wall, one is underground, but with open air above the water and a long stairway to a floating platform. Silver River and Rainbow River are the two dive-able rivers, although Silver was closed, then reopened and I don't know the status now. Rainbow River is a classic drift river dive and if you take your own dive flag (or rent one), the boat will drop you off and leave you on your own. The drift can take as little as one hour or six! Go in the afternoon, and go slow so it turns into a night dive, but don't drift past your entry/exit point! Getting back up current means getting out, finding the road, and hiking back.

the one with whale bones is a hole in the ground that opens large, like a bell, and so may be considered an overhead by some; and for sure you can make it a cavern dive, even a cave dive, but don't. like you said, stay within your training.

As a side note, I think blue grotto meets the definition of acceptable open water diver training. It must be wide enough for two divers side by side with the entry visible at the same time the exit is visible, two paths to exit, the other side and the side you entered. This applies to coral arches as well. I don't know of any length restrictions, but I know many open water quarry training sites that include tubes 20 or more feet long, that fit divers single file only. Surely, they violate the rule, but then it's the diver's responsibility to dive within their training.

enjoy,
skip

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Originally Posted by skip

Divebutt,

There are many nice springs and at least two rivers that make for great diving solo with no overhead. I don't know their names off-hand...one spring has an old wheel from a steamboat (and a bit of wreckage) at 60 or 70 feet, ...

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Troy Springs Florida State Park

Ginnie has a cavern that's is reasonably safe for untrained divers. I don't think Ginnie officially allows solo, but cave divers do it regularly there. IDK if they are cool with OW solo diving, but it would be up to you to ask.

Paradise springs and devil's den will not allow it.

Pretending like all caverns are equally dangerous is how OW divers end up in the cavern at twin.

Get cavern trained if those are not enough. The list is much longer if you're cavern trained.

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Originally Posted by vicp

Troy Springs Florida State Park

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Sounds like it, but the wreck isn't at 60-70 feet (or I missed something big).

Sounds like he was also talking about devils den maybe?

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Originally Posted by skip

As a side note, I think blue grotto meets the definition of acceptable open water diver training. It must be wide enough for two divers side by side with the entry visible at the same time the exit is visible, two paths to exit, the other side and the side you entered. This applies to coral arches as well. I don't know of any length restrictions, but I know many open water quarry training sites that include tubes 20 or more feet long, that fit divers single file only. Surely, they violate the rule, but then it's the diver's responsibility to dive within their training.

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What agencies use that to define open water?

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Originally Posted by ScubaStingRay

Sounds like it, but the wreck isn't at 60-70 feet (or I missed something big).

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The basin is ~60' to 70' (I think), but the wreck is in the spring run that is pretty shallow.

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Originally Posted by vicp

The basin is ~60' to 70' (I think), but the wreck is in the spring run that is pretty shallow.

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Yeah exactly, the post reads like it is at 60-70 feet, but it's more like 10 near the river.
It's mostly slats that you can see.

I think that the rope, the huge entrance, and the silt-proof bottom make the Ginnie Ballroom safe for OW divers. I don't think Blue Grotto is safe for OW divers; viz is less than half Ginnie's.
I didn't know Ginnie objected to solo diving. I have often used the Ballroom or Little Devil to work on rigging problems by myself.

Get a grip, people. There's nothing wrong with open water divers in the cavern at Ginnie, or Morrison, or Cypress. They're called "novice caverns," and I don't recall an accident in any of them, ever.

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Originally Posted by allen

I think that the rope, the huge entrance, and the silt-proof bottom make the Ginnie Ballroom safe for OW divers. .

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Not sure if we can call the cavern safe,because we have the occasional OW fatality there,this would include Vortex too. We bash the guides that take OW divers on "safe" cave dives in Mexico because there is a "guide",but we condone OW divers in a "safe cavern". Ginnie cavern has an area off to the side that has an area where no light can be seen,so by definition this becomes a cave. We can't stop places like Ginnie and Vortex from allowing open water divers in the cavern/cave zone,only educate,but when there is fatality,they call them cave divers-black eye for us.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Get a grip, people. There's nothing wrong with open water divers in the cavern at Ginnie, or Morrison, or Cypress. They're called "novice caverns," and I don't recall an accident in any of them, ever.

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Need to do your homework Russell. Ginnie a few and I think Morrison has one a few years ago,but doubt this was documented by IUCRR. In my opinion one is too many,we have advanced too far from the 70s,and training is so readily available.

How many OW divers have a tendency to bolt? Not op, but just in general most certified divers are woefully under trained to understand the environment. How many divers don't even own a light and have to rent? I'm not saying I haven't gone in ginnie without cavern or that others always can't, but it seems like a self evaluation hasn't occurred for most ow divers.

This thread is particularly humorous given that OP wanted to stay within his training, which does exclude these environments by definition.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Get a grip, people. There's nothing wrong with open water divers in the cavern at Ginnie, or Morrison, or Cypress. They're called "novice caverns," and I don't recall an accident in any of them, ever.

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I won't comment on the other sites, but I will strongly beg to differ on Morrison. I remember when I received my advanced OW training at 17 that my instructor could tell I had an interest in other aspects of diving other than pretty fish looking. He took me into the cavern at Morrison and I was so narced I was hitting the ceiling then the floor over and over, and felt like I was being attacked by jaws when the eels came to have a look at me.

I think the flow coming out of the opening is really the biggest thing keeping morrison off of the above list. My instructor warned me about the flow, but I distinctly remember getting shot out like a cannonball. An untrained dive could easily embolize.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Get a grip, people. There's nothing wrong with open water divers in the cavern at Ginnie, or Morrison, or Cypress. They're called "novice caverns," and I don't recall an accident in any of them, ever.

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Where is Cypress Springs?

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Originally Posted by ScubaStingRay

This thread is particularly humorous given that OP wanted to stay within his training, which does exclude these environments by definition.

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Not to dig at the OP or be disrespectful, but the glaring thing that doesn't sit well with me is that he notes that he doesn't want to overstep his training, but in essence is regardless of how easy the caverns may be, and is an OW instructor. It doesn't really concern me what he does on his own. What worries me is that if its OK for a student's instructor, doesn't that mean its OK for the student as well?

I'm not so clueless as to not realize there's lots of things good instructors shouldn't be doing, but at the end of the day shouldn't an instructor want to be a gleaming example of not bending the rules?

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Originally Posted by Puttzer

Where is Cypress Springs?

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I haven't even thought about cypress since my first open water classes. Pulling up the link below brought back lots of good memories though.
http://underwaterflorida.homestead.com/cypress.html

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Originally Posted by rddvet

I haven't even thought about cypress since my first open water classes. Pulling up the link below brought back lots of good memories though.

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I dived it Monday for the first time since 2001. Puttzer, it's forty miles due north of Panama City Beach, just outside Vernon.

(It's water-entry-only since Nestle bought the property. Our kayaks are in the center of the picture.)

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Originally Posted by rddvet

Pulling up the link below...

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This website says, "This is now private property and only accessible by canoe or small boat. You must launch at a ramp on Holmes Creek several miles downstream and paddle upstream to reach the spring." This is not true - Culpepper landing is only about 500 yards downstream, and it's free.

Ah this is the nestle spring. I've been meaning to try this one out. I imagine entry with doubles into a canoe is rather difficult.

Finally someone agrees with me. Overhead is Overhead. Seems the private , for profit, dive sites really don't care about safety. If they required Cavern Certification in Gennie's Ballroom, Devil's Den, Blue Grotto, Paradise Springs, they would be limiting their audience and would eventually go out of business. Go to Orange Grove, Catfish Hotel, Jug Hole, Madison Blue, or any of the State Parks and take a light with you. You will find out quickly that the State Parks seem to understand the importance of training more than the Private Sector Profitable Dive Sites do. Just because they allow you to be stupid you still have a brain that should let you know what is right.

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Originally Posted by vicp

Yeah, OW Cavern is an oxymoron, but before everyone begins to pile on the OP in some sort of self-righteous, chest-thumping orgy, realize that it is the diving industry that has created these so-called "OW Caverns." Ginnie Ballroom, Blue Grotto, Paradise Springs (I am sure there are others), are all overhead environments that are "open" to OW divers.

We are told to NEVER go into an overhead, no matter how benign, until you have the training and certification. People on SB actually debate whether it is safe to go through coral arches as they are technically "overhead," but the above mentioned sites, which are certainly caverns with cave extensions, are open to OW divers by their owners.

Hey, "don't go into any overhead, watch "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die", give me 30 or 40 bucks, sign the waiver, don't take a light (unless you sneak one in - I won't watch), follow the thick heavy line, and try not to kill yourself."

No wonder many think that training limitations are a joke!

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If the OP is still aorund - with your interest in caverns, go to www.nacdmembers.com or www.nsscds.org for local instructors. Cavern classes are probably $400 for 2 days training and worth it regardless of your level of training. Also, you can check out TDI, IANTD, NAUI, and GUE more more instructors.

This thread is EXACTLY why I had such a strong reaction to PADI wanting to educate OW divers through pictures on safe caves versus non-safe caves.

PADI actually used the reference, "safe cave"? Well isn't that just precious lol.

I've been in Cypress. It's a very pretty cavern. Very misleading because it looks like it could lead to a very awesome cave. We searched and searched inside for some kind of lead and we saw a hole at the bottom that looked like it could go somewhere. It does, we asked Edd but it's a no mount restriction and there isn't much cave there.

The last time I was in Paradise, about 2006, Tracy and I were there first thing in the morning and had a nice dive. Then a group of five showed up in a big white SUV with a dive shop logo on the door. They got in shortly after we submerged for our second dive, swam down to the sign and turned, and promptly silted the place out. Afterwards found out that it was a shop-sponsored trip - the five were a divemaster and four new graduates of a "Learn SCUBA in a Weekend - $99.00!" class. One was a 12 year old with his dad. Their first dive after certification was to 100 feet in an overhead. Didn't seem like that good of an idea.

Mike

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Originally Posted by MORGAN

The last time I was in Paradise, about 2006, Tracy and I were there first thing in the morning and had a nice dive. Then a group of five showed up in a big white SUV with a dive shop logo on the door. They got in shortly after we submerged for our second dive, swam down to the sign and turned, and promptly silted the place out. Afterwards found out that it was a shop-sponsored trip - the five were a divemaster and four new graduates of a "Learn SCUBA in a Weekend - $99.00!" class. One was a 12 year old with his dad. Their first dive after certification was to 100 feet in an overhead. Didn't seem like that good of an idea.

Mike

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I love Paradise and have dove it several times. It truly baffles me that this is a OW dive. We have been in after classes have dove like you mentioned and have had 10ft viz near the bottom. Absolute zero natural light and yet its ok for newly certified divers. I just don't get it.