Cave Diving Police

I was diving the eye at Ginnie last Wed. I was meet by the Cave Diving Police after the dive. I don't know who it was but he sure didn't like us diving there. He yelled at us on how we layed the guide line and how we were diving. Yes I hit the silt near the bone room a little but he was pissed. We have been Full Cave for over 20 years. He was cussing us out at the top of the steps. Making all kinds of accusations.
I have never seen this before. I guess he is self appointed. In my years in cave diving I have noticed that cave diving has attracted in the recent years,super ego A holes. It used to be if another cave diver saw you mess up, they were there to help you out to improve, talk about it. Well he yelled and cussed at us and then left. When I got out he was gone. Seems kind of chicken. Can't we do better as Cave Divers I think so.

Of course the problem with cave divers is they are people. So in order for some to be helpful caring individuals, there unfortunately have to be some like the individual you ran into. I generally say the people I have met cave diving are some of the best folks I have had the privilege of knowing.

The few that I run into that exhibit extreme behavior similar to what you describe, I choose to let them take their own path. Things always seem to have a way of working out. True for any endeavor I choose to partake in.

I'd like to hear his side of the story....

I was once told that cave divers are all pretty much high-testosterone alpha males who think they know better than anybody about just about everything. When you get them in the same room, expect fireworks.

skip

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PfcAJ

I'd like to hear his side of the story....

---

You will..... I was there as well but only observed some of what happened.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skip

I was once told that cave divers are all pretty much high-testosterone alpha males who think they know better than anybody about just about everything. When you get them in the same room, expect fireworks.

skip

---

This is true, in my experience, and it's unbearably obnoxious - it's why I avoid many other cave divers :-) This may be true of divers in general, though.

So, I'm the chicken who "cussed" at you. (Yes, I know a lot of you are shocked) :)

Let's start from my perspective.
We watched as you and your buddy blazed through the keyhole despite my team exiting the cave. No courtesy there. But that's okay. It's not a rule or anything more of just a courtesy that exiting divers have the right of way. Then, we watched as the guy with the 20 year old pistol grip flashlights and orange wetsuit kneeled completely vertical in the mud for a solid 20 seconds. Silt goes everywhere. No real big deal there. Not really any danger, just thought it funny that you have no regard at all for the cave or even a shred of pride in your skill for the hobby. Then you push off the ground, and flutter kick over and over and over, but your buoyancy is so bad that you keep pushing yourself off the ground with your off hand, all the while kicking like a mule (flutter of course every time). I was certain that you were an open water diver who had borrowed gear, and I was terrified you were the next fatality at ginnie. I followed until gas really wouldn't permit me to stay any longer (stupid OC). I rushed for my buddy in the rebreather looking to tell him about you guys hoping he could find and save you, but so much time had elapsed right now, I wasn't certain he would know where to look. Of course as I think about it now, all he really had to do was follow the silt from the incessant bouncing off the bottom and the flutter kick.

I make it back to my line and I find the worst run line I've probably ever seen in my life. Not only was your primary line flapping in the current wildly but you actually crossed my line in 4 or 5 places (I'm not sure how this was even possible or necessary) but then you even tied onto the top of my placements, making it impossible to pull my reel without first pulling your reel. Dude, that just pisses me off.

So, lets recap.... Kneeling in the mud, bouncing off the bottom, pistol grip flashlights (try running a reel with them, maybe that's why the reel work was so poor), flutter kicking in the silt, failure to yield the right of way, failure to run a reel properly in just about every conceivable way.

You can understand how I was worried you shouldn't be there, and then B. Finding out you actually were cave divers, but just didn't know how to cave dive. You're right, I did cuss at you. I said, "either get more training and follow it, or stay out of the cave". I stand by that direction.

Go diving with anyone else. If they tell you that your abilities in the cave are up to par, tell them to get more training too.

And don't do like you did at the steps and try to explain away why you did what you did. The fact is, you suck at cave diving. No excuses man. You've been diving for 20 years but kneeling in the mud and flutter kicking? Running a reel the way you did? Get more training or a mentor. Hell, take another cavern class with a good instructor, because you REALLY don't belong in a cave right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bakrt

It used to be if another cave diver saw you mess up, they were there to help you out to improve, talk about it.

---

Wanna go diving next weekend? We can work out some of the "mess up" and possibly help you improve.
I can forgive you for sucking at cave diving, if you can forgive me for sucking at people skills.

Popcorn anyone?

Always interesting to know both sides of the story. Let's get ready to rumbleeeeee.

http://reactiongifs.us/wp-content/up...en_colbert.gif

At least the two sides of the story seem to be the same. If Superlyte is sincere in his offer to mentor Bakrt and his buddy that is indeed a good outcome of both this thread and the altercation at Ginnie. Quite a few people that suck at diving and in particular cave diving are not aware that they suck at it. Usually their buddy sucks too, so they both think all is good. I have been diving for a long time and I am positive that there is one or two aspects of my diving that suck also. I look forward to my buddies and others jumping on me for my bad form. Oh and some advice for Bakrt, get some new gear or at least some used cave gear that is current. It is not how well you dive, but how well you look in your gear ;-)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fno

If Superlyte is sincere in his offer to mentor Bakrt and his buddy that is indeed a good outcome of both this thread and the altercation at Ginnie.

---

:clapper

If it swims like a duck....it's a duck ! If it dives like a skin diver..well......? But then if you are truely educated, then more training is always a good thing. Shouting matches don't prove anything other than someone has a bigger mouth. Well done Superlyte !
Thank you !
je

Classic!

I changed my brake pads on my 2005 ford ranger this weekend

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avs123

I changed my brake pads on my 2005 ford ranger this weekend

---

:rollguy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PfcAJ

I'd like to hear his side of the story....

---

+1.

Edit: I should read the full thread first. In my head I was calculating what % chance it was superlyte that yelled at him.

The OP should just be thankful that Peter did not threaten to break his kneecaps with a baseball ball, or blow him up with his high powered rifle, or offer him a ride in his car...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cavman

The OP should just be thankful that Peter did not threaten to break his kneecaps with a baseball ball, or blow him up with his high powered rifle, or offer him a ride in his car...

---

I believe it was a hammer. Not a bat, but truthfully I can't remember. The rifle is a myth. That never happened. The ride in the car did in fact happen. Let that be a lesson to those riding in my car. If you're being a jerk and I tell you to knock it off, you probably should heed the warning.

Sounds like somebody has been skipping their meds again.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skip

I was once told that cave divers are all pretty much high-testosterone alpha males who think they know better than anybody about just about everything. When you get them in the same room, expect fireworks.

skip

---

Am I really? :mama

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mbaker

Sounds like somebody has been skipping their meds again.....

---

...or maybe a reel was pulled after a month?

hehe.

This is why my arse is puckered while I'm in cave country.. (trying my best not to screw up). :-D


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No meds, just a refusal to tolerate bs as I see it. If you don't like it, avoid me.

Good on ya.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Superlyte27

So, I'm the chicken who "cussed" at you. (Yes, I know a lot of you are shocked) :)

Let's start from my perspective.
We watched as you and your buddy blazed through the keyhole despite my team exiting the cave. No courtesy there. But that's okay. It's not a rule or anything more of just a courtesy that exiting divers have the right of way. Then, we watched as the guy with the 20 year old pistol grip flashlights and orange wetsuit kneeled completely vertical in the mud for a solid 20 seconds. Silt goes everywhere. No real big deal there. Not really any danger, just thought it funny that you have no regard at all for the cave or even a shred of pride in your skill for the hobby. Then you push off the ground, and flutter kick over and over and over, but your buoyancy is so bad that you keep pushing yourself off the ground with your off hand, all the while kicking like a mule (flutter of course every time). I was certain that you were an open water diver who had borrowed gear, and I was terrified you were the next fatality at ginnie. I followed until gas really wouldn't permit me to stay any longer (stupid OC). I rushed for my buddy in the rebreather looking to tell him about you guys hoping he could find and save you, but so much time had elapsed right now, I wasn't certain he would know where to look. Of course as I think about it now, all he really had to do was follow the silt from the incessant bouncing off the bottom and the flutter kick.

I make it back to my line and I find the worst run line I've probably ever seen in my life. Not only was your primary line flapping in the current wildly but you actually crossed my line in 4 or 5 places (I'm not sure how this was even possible or necessary) but then you even tied onto the top of my placements, making it impossible to pull my reel without first pulling your reel. Dude, that just pisses me off.

So, lets recap.... Kneeling in the mud, bouncing off the bottom, pistol grip flashlights (try running a reel with them, maybe that's why the reel work was so poor), flutter kicking in the silt, failure to yield the right of way, failure to run a reel properly in just about every conceivable way.

You can understand how I was worried you shouldn't be there, and then B. Finding out you actually were cave divers, but just didn't know how to cave dive. You're right, I did cuss at you. I said, "either get more training and follow it, or stay the PHUCK out of the cave". I stand by that direction.

Go diving with anyone else. If they tell you that your abilities in the cave are up to par, tell them to get more training too.

And don't do like you did at the steps and try to explain away why you did what you did. The fact is, you suck at cave diving. No excuses man. You've been diving for 20 years but kneeling in the mud and flutter kicking? Running a reel the way you did? Get more training or a mentor. Hell, take another cavern class with a good instructor, because you REALLY don't belong in a cave right now.

---

Screw me, I read thru this and understand why he said something if everything said above is true...and I have no reason to believe it isn't.

Not long ago, I (and a few other cave instructors) were on a fun dive, on the way out we saw 4 incoming divers on the way in, two in rebreathers in the worst trim I have even seen displayed and two still horrible but better OC divers, their gear caught my eye because they were diving yoke regs...anyhow, the 4 when they saw us decided to crowd to the point of block the line, like they were scared to get away from it. Anyhow, between their crap trim and technique, their lack of coutesy I was somewhat shaking my head when we got out. Now at the surface one of the other instructors in my party tells me that that was a class, that the instructor had talked with him earlier in the day... and it was the instructor and his assistant on CCR. I made a comment only half in jest that I should wait for him and as he surfaces just smash him in the face...we all laughed and were making smart arse comments about how poor the class was. I don't think any of us were gonna say anything to this medium name instructor however.Not 5 mins after we were on the surface (we had some deco) the "team surfaces and we all listen to the debrief. It was "good job, did you see all the fish schooling at the entrance?" Seeing the look in my eyes, my party started to clear out, but not before I approached said instructor and asked him what the hell he was doing, pointed out how crappy the class was, then made the statement that if a class I was teaching was diving so poorly, with such bad situational awareness they wouldn't be in the cavern let alone cave, that I would have been embarrassed if another instructor saw me and my students performing so poorly. He looked at me and said "well maybe you would be embarrassed, I'm not". BTW , I waited until his students had left, I'm not that much of an ashole, SLyte I bet would not have.. :-)

The very worst part? We all talk about that day, but we don't say anything in public, because after all that arsehat will start a cave country war with us, and the carnival will just go on and on.

I'm embarrassed.

Sometimes it takes a stern confrontation to put things into perspective.
We are human and when someone is fearing for another diver it is stressful and a whole bunch of emotions at once.
Sometimes it is hard to not explode and sometime it is hard to not be offended but what really is important is that both parties come to understand the rational reason for the confrontation.
I have been on both sides of this and really learned a lot about myself and others.
Time to cool and calmly consider what went on and what was said then respectful conversation usually prevails.
I thank both sides for coming on and sharing.

One comment that is very concerning is when we make excuses when called out on anything one needs to be very concerned.
I have heard this happen before and it is never productive and very dangerous when talking about cave diving.
There are absolutes in the cave environment and the basics are paramount.
I have witnessed a exchange that until it reached the yelling stage the person would not listen but make excuses.
Please take the offer to heart when I was called out and sternly reprimanded it offended me until I calmed down and then I understood.
The person took the time to PM me and explain why he felt the way he did.
When people are passionate about a sport, support the efforts to keep systems open, love caves they can't help but care about other cave divers.

I have been challenged to be more confrontative about skills.
Mastery is misunderstood by many, but not lost on those who will seek it!
What we do is a labor of love being the best is a pursuit.
Either you get it or you don't.

JCG

I also rolled my eyes and laughed that of course it was SuperLyte...however after reading his observations if even one of his statements was accurate the original poster and his group deserved at least a tongue lashing.

As a community we don't "owe" anyone help on improving their skills, their instructors are SUPPOSED to either certify them at the skill level necessary or fail them. I don't think the instructor corp as a whole does a good job at failing people, well outside of gue that is (no gue training on my part).

I'd be REALLY interested in exactly who certified these guys and the level of their certification. I realize it will never be addressed, heck agencies tolerate "teaching" 10 year olds and abandoning divers in tight spaces. They are interested in money, not actual training to standards.

To the original poster, as a member of the cave community I don't owe you crap. I am not at all responsible to "help you improve".
How about you go pay a real cave instructor to improve your skills and return when you are capable? I'll bet you don't post your instructors name. You clearly need way more than mentoring. Why should anyone waste their time mentoring someone who won't take the yoke of getting themselves trained seriously?
It sounds like you are a cave diving disgrace and thankfully someone called you on it. You are screwing up OUR caves, get properly trained and raise your skill level or leave. If I saw such nonsense I'd probably cut your line and curse you out.

I can't believe I support superlytes position, however I did agree with skip one time also...the end must be near.

Peter....

You absolutely know I believe in feedback. For me and from me. If you wish to assist others, that is noble and I genuinely commend you for that. I will say; however, you could probably start the offer to mentor better. Just my opinion there.

As you well know, I believe it to be the presenters/providers responsibility to be impactful, effective and encouraging with their feedback. You were probably one, maybe two.

I will say this for certain: Most would have driven off and cried about what happened; Some would have posted; Nearly all would have told the story. Few would have confronted the diver. For this, I applaud.

I feel it is every diver's responsibility to see that all enjoy the cave as it was found--or better. I do not approve of people that have no regard for the environment or their skill in it.

SO, I guess I have to vote that while I would never loan you a hammer, ride in your car or go hunting with you I do think you had the courage to share your opinion, own it and stand behind it....and offer support for someone that might benefit from it.

Oh, and you kinda....kinda...apologized for your technique.

All in all a good day, no?

Bob

I would have to agree with the decision to tell the divers where they went wrong or where they have to improve. I'm sure I will be in cave country with at least someone seeing me dive and I would hope that if you saw me mucking things up or not having good technique that you would say something. I respect my instructor Randy Thornton very much and am happy he took the time to debrief and critique us every dive.

My dive buddy Chris Ferrar and I have a lot to learn. We are very critical of ourselves because we know there is always something to improve on.

Heck I met Peter during my course and he was super nice. I can respect his passion for the sport and safety.

I think he did the right thing. Did he go about it in the right way? Who the hell knows I wasn't there. Maybe he should take an anger management class or better yet...

Maybe Peter needs some good Yoga or meditation?

:-D




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Their instructor was Steve Gerrard. That was the first question I asked. Oh...and I used to teach Anger Management. I guess the saying really is true, "those who can't do, teach."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Superlyte27

No meds, just a refusal to tolerate be as I see it. If you don't like it, avoid me.

---

That's should have said "tolerate bs"
Stupid AutoCorrect

I got that Peter and no harm intended. I am glad something was said. I hear Ginnie Springs is a great place for a good old down home shootout but think that should be left for the drunken river rats and not brought on by the cave divers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mbaker

I got that Peter and no harm intended. I am glad something was said. I hear Ginnie Springs is a great place for a good old down home shootout but think that should be left for the drunken river rats and not brought on by the cave divers.

---

The heated exchange wasn't really heated at all. But I understand that doesn't make for a good story. It wasn't a shouting match. No one was screaming or threatening anyone. The whole thing lasted less time than it takes to eject someone from your car. I doubt either party was terribly upset. I certainly was not. I was relieved that they made it back alive. I was aggravated that they would excuse away every point I brought up. And as the conversation went on, that aggravation grew. But hammers and guns were not necessary.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Superlyte27

The heated exchange wasn't really heated at all. But I understand that doesn't make for a good story. It wasn't a shouting match. No one was screaming or threatening anyone. The whole thing lasted less time than it takes to eject someone from your car. I doubt either party was terribly upset. I certainly was not. I was relieved that they made it back alive. I was aggravated that they would excuse away every point I brought up. And as the conversation went on, that aggravation grew. But hammers and guns were not necessary.

---

The fill station at Ginnie used to have the bad technique fly swatter,wonder what a local shop might have :-)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Superlyte27

Their instructor was Steve Gerrard. That was the first question I asked. Oh...and I used to teach Anger Management. I guess the saying really is true, "those who can't do, teach."

---

I met & knew Steve Gerrard for awhile & I cannot believe that he would certify someone without that person/persons qualifing ! I have a lot of respect for Steve. My own CI was a college level instructor & teacher who failed me on my first Cave class. Thankfully for that as i had to improve my own skills to go back & re-take his class to pass it. {Lloyd Baily} That is the mark of a good instructor....to flunk a student not up to the certs ! I still could use a refresher from a qualifed instructor & would like to take today's Full &/or Side mount classes. Education & Training are the key to being a safe cave diver. It is the right thing to do to address a diver who is not doing what should be natural & safe.
You are a better person for offering to help him.
Thank you for your posts.
Jack e.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JE

I met & knew Steve Gerrard for awhile & I cannot believe that he would certify someone without that person/persons qualifing !

---

The OP said he has been full cave for over 20 years. A lot can happen in 20 years. Unless you are diving often, skills can deteriorate. Unless you are diving conscientiously, skills can deteriorate. For example, I live far from caves, and it is a real effort for me to get to them. When I do make such trips, I am usually being led in places I have never been before, and the person leading me usually lays the line. I recently realized I had not done a lot of line laying for quite some time. I therefore traveled to a dive site with a rocky floor so I could get some practice. I think I will do that again soon.

I am an OW instructor, and I sometimes teach refresher courses. I recently worked with two NAUI divers who had not been diving for 11 years. They frankly looked like they had never dived before in their lives, and it took a lot of effort to make them look like divers. I don't blame their initial NAUI instruction for that. I blame 11 years of inactivity.

The question is not "How long have you been certified?" but "How many dives have you made in the past 12 months?"

It is always interesting that people tell on themselves when they display bad behavior. Ill admit that I hit the silt. As for the pistol grip light that was a GoPro with a small brand new video light on a tray. I was working with my new GoPro and lost buoyancy sorry. If I messed up your dive sorry. It seems that you feel you need to act like a Bully. I was a little rusty with backmount I usually side mount. I did notice that the Forum Moderator had to edit your response due to profanity. Men admit when they are wrong and take responsibility for messing up. I will work on my skills. Stay safe and I will try to do the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bakrt

I did notice that the Forum Moderator had to edit your response due to profanity. Men admit when they are wrong and take responsibility for messing up. I will work on my skills. Stay safe and I will try to do the same.

---

I put the "S" back into the "BS", because Peter's autocorrect turned it into "BE". So strictly speaking, I restored the original content.
Personally, I wouldn't really call "BS" profanity, but that's just my opinion. I'm not a native speaker, so I wouldn't know.

Glad to hear that you will be working on your skills. If you need a buddy to help you with any of that, please drop me a PN.

I know Peter and I cannot call him a bully. I can call him many other things, but not a bully.

As for all this other stuff: own it, get better and move on.

I cannot blame your instructor for your class 20 years ago. I was not in the water and did not see what you did or how you were geared. I will say this, though, if Peter felt that he should wait for you to discuss your performance you probably have some work to do.

Take the gift of feedback and get better. We can all always get better....

I must add one last thing: every piece of critique I gave Peter he reacted to it. He embraced the affront and moved on. I have video to prove it.

Bob

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bakrt

It is always interesting that people tell on themselves when they display bad behavior. Ill admit that I hit the silt. As for the pistol grip light that was a GoPro with a small brand new video light on a tray. I was working with my new GoPro and lost buoyancy sorry. If I messed up your dive sorry. It seems that you feel you need to act like a Bully. I was a little rusty with backmount I usually side mount. I did notice that the Forum Moderator had to edit your response due to profanity. Men admit when they are wrong and take responsibility for messing up. I will work on my skills. Stay safe and I will try to do the same.

---

OMG!!! I'm so glad you responded. I'm all a twitter with excitement. I hardly know where to start. I guess I'll start with myself.

First, a bully targets the weak and undeserving. I'm pretty indiscriminate in that I hate everyone equally. While you are certainly weak in cave diving, I have no idea whether you are lacking in mental capacity, physical attribute or moral compass. And I'm pretty sure that "weak" cave diving skills isn't really what bullies are looking for when selecting a target. You are certainly not undeserving. Your skills in the cave are atrocious. They needed to be pointed out, mentioned and discussed. But we'll get to that in a second. Secondly, a bully would never publicly mock and ridicule you, then offer for free to help you get your skills up to par so you can dive safely. Sure, I'm a A-Hole, but my love of the hobby is genuine.

Now, lets get to you. I'm not certain if you were the lead diver or the diver in the 70's era orange wetsuit. Can you elaborate? Diver #2 was in fact carrying 2 Pistol Grip Flashlights. If memory serves they were incandescent pelican lights. I didn't notice any GoPro, and frankly I didn't notice ANYTHING about the lead diver. Diver number 2 was the one I was focused on. So, I read the paragraph above and you "tell on yourself" about hitting the silt. You were working with a new GoPro and lost buoyancy. I'm going to suggest you master your photography in good, clear, safe open water before you task load yourself in a dangerous cave. This has nothing at all to do with messing up my dive. My dive was awesome. This has to do with your safety. I'm still a little frightened in the fact that while you mention silt, you didn't mention anything about improper tie offs on the reel. The fact that the reel was blowing wildly in the flow. Kneeling on your knees in mud, flutter kicking for more than 400' in the silt. But I re-read that you are rusty in backmount, usually you sidemount. So you think it's a good idea to re-master backmount while trying out a new camera in a cave? C'mon man, that's just bad common sense. And that's what this post and my comments that afternoon are all about.

I appreciate you admitting when you are wrong, believe me. I'm wrong a lot, and I admit it a lot. Call me well practiced. But my fear is you're missing the point. Do you really believe the only issue was your buoyancy? Because I see a lot of skills that are lacking and some problem with decision making... like unnecessarily task loading yourself. Do you even recognize all the problems? I really don't know. I've listed them in the beginning of this thread, but let me list them again, not to beat a dead horse but to give you a checklist of what needs to be resolved. Your tie offs were improper. Please don't tie on top of other people's tie offs. You crossed over my line in several places. If you must cross a line, cross under it. Your line wasn't tight at all. It was very very loose. You didn't yield the right of way to exiting divers. You knelt in mud completely vertical. You bounced off the bottom several times. You flutter kicked the entire time I witnessed you. I'm not sure you can put aside our differences (and by that I mean the fact that I'm a giant fizzy douche), but if you'd like, we can go diving and work on some of this stuff.

Now, since I've taken a few minutes to point out your weaknesses, lets point out some of mine. Ready? 1. I'm a prick. 2. Yup, that really encompasses it all.

Honestly, if I had stood at the top of the steps and said, "You know mister diver, that really wasn't your greatest dive." Would it have been a second thought in your head? You'd have forgotten the conversation the moment I was out of site. And maybe next time you dive, one of those bad techniques wouldn't be so forgiving. Maybe you don't come back. Would it have gotten more than 3000 views from other divers who also possibly suck at cave diving on this forum. Maybe people really don't know it's not cool to kneel in the mud. Honestly, you didn't know, or would you have really done it in front of three other guys?

It would be nice if people could openly tell someone they need to improve. Oh wait, that's exactly what I did. Sure my delivery could have been better, but would it have had the impact? Who knows. Good luck man. Let me know if I can help. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shellmoundal

The question is not "How long have you been certified?" but "How many dives have you made in the past 12 months?"

---

Just where is the guy supposed to dive to get those practice dives? Evidently not Ginnie.

News Flash, you can work on buoyancy, trim and frog kick in a pool. But if that's not to your liking... how about Ballroom. Blue Grotto, Devil's Den, Alexander Springs, Rainbow River, Crystal River and 10 other places closer to his house than Devil's Eye.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bakrt

It is always interesting that people tell on themselves when they display bad behavior. Ill admit that I hit the silt. As for the pistol grip light that was a GoPro with a small brand new video light on a tray. I was working with my new GoPro and lost buoyancy sorry. If I messed up your dive sorry. It seems that you feel you need to act like a Bully. I was a little rusty with backmount I usually side mount. I did notice that the Forum Moderator had to edit your response due to profanity. Men admit when they are wrong and take responsibility for messing up. I will work on my skills. Stay safe and I will try to do the same.

---

Sooo.... would you be willing to show is some of the footage you got on that GoPro?

I love a good video. :)

Cheers,
Garth


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I had no idea people ran lines in Ginnie outside of class. Guess you learn something new every day.

Running lines at Ginnie?

Its like those who say they need a shake down dive on thier first dive back to caves for a year. Well if you dive in OW, then even OW should be treated like a cave dive with all that goes with it, mentality, bouancy, trim, and I could go on. Once a cave diver all dives are dove like a cave dive. That is what shows our differance in ability.

SLIM

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Superlyte27

News Flash, you can work on buoyancy, trim and frog kick in a pool. But if that's not to your liking... how about Ballroom. Blue Grotto, Devil's Den, Alexander Springs, Rainbow River, Crystal River and 10 other places closer to his house than Devil's Eye.

---

Fair enough!
I do get a kick out this since I live in a part of the world where if you are productive enough citizen to own your own boat; you can pretty much dive any place. No one checks for C cards or cares if your gear is politically correct.

Pretty sure that the Great Lakes aren't going to get closed if some idiot screws up and kills himself. However, that kind of crap happens all the time in cave country. We have to be self policing. Damage to these caves never heals. Kneel in the mud and those impressions can stay there for years. Get killed in a cave and we might lose access to the cave, or worse, lose a good agency and caves at the same time.

There's acceptable practices that we all agree to and learn in cave class. Get on board, or go buy a boat and dive somewhere else.

I'm a crazy kind of guy that happens to like Pete, but then again I like most divers. I will say though that I would get quite frustrated if I saw some of the stuff Pete mentioned seeing, especially with the hands all over the floor of the cave leaving marks behind. I would almost rather have my hand cut off then make a hand print that will be there for years and years.

I agree Gene. People just don't care anymore about anything. It's sad. I can say one thing about Pete, if the guy truly didn't suck Pete wouldn't have said anything.

I have to say its hard to accept that the use of a camera is and "acceptable" reason to have bouyancy issues. If that is adding to your task loading to the point of impacting your dive the poster should have left it clipped off - I have done it more than once.

Unfortunately this is a big issue issue, even in open water. Recently I saw a post from Stephen Frink with a image of some of his students from a "master" DSLR class that had his students standing on the reef in Key Largo. I politely stated this behavior wasn't a something that I would consider acceptable. He responded in an equally friendly manner that they were in a area of rubble, not reef so he didn't have an issue. I like and have met Steve, but this attitidude that if you are capturing images or video creates a different allowance is something that I can't accept or ignore.


Jeff

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RGU

Fair enough!
I do get a kick out this since I live in a part of the world where if you are productive enough citizen to own your own boat; you can pretty much dive any place. No one checks for C cards or cares if your gear is politically correct.

---

Being from Florida, it's hard to imagine a place in the world like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kidsdream

I have to say its hard to accept that the use of a camera is and "acceptable" reason to have bouyancy issues. If that is adding to your task loading to the point of impacting your dive the poster should have left it clipped off - I have done it more than once.

---

This is a comment that has been brought up in reference to cave conservation. People with newly acquired cave diving skills will want to try video/photography too soon (even surveying),and when task loaded,buoyancy and trim become lost. I have seen sections of cave silted out from someone attending too much to the camera and subject,but not the fundamentals to cave diving. This becomes a safety and cave conservation issue.

Cameras do take a lot of attention, at the expense of other things. Even Wes Skiles had a safety diver to keep an eye on him while he was concentrating on the camera. Not that he would loose buoyancy or trim control, but more that he might loose track of gas, line, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hunabku

Being from Florida, it's hard to imagine a place in the world like that.

---

The three Lakes around the state are broken up into marine preserves. Most of the wrecks have moorings placed on them every spring. All you have to do is drive up, hook a mooring, and raise a dive flag

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bakrt

Ill admit that I hit the silt. As for the pistol grip light that was a GoPro with a small brand new video light on a tray.

---

http://www.cavedivinginstructor.com/...fore-you-shoot

apply the same principles to video...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TracyN

I can say one thing about Pete, if the guy truly didn't suck Pete wouldn't have said anything.

---

Wow, do you guys know the significance of that statement?

I was once banned from a forum for writing in a private message to a friend that TracyN was unsafe and going to die in a cave. There's never been anyone who has taken more crap from me about poor skills than Tracy. For months and months I blasted her about the fact that her buoyancy, trim and frog kick sucked. She always countered with disbelief and stated that she couldn't be that bad or she wouldn't have passed class.

I dove with Tracy a year later (now more than a year ago) and was amazed at her SAC rate, trim and buoyancy. She looked amazing in the water. I couldn't believe it. She dove A LOT, worked on the skills that suffered and looks great in the water. She could have ignored all the advice her friends gave her and stuck her head in the sand, but instead she worked at resolving the issues. Great Job Tracy.

Now, if we could just do something about your attention span with scooters? HAHAHA.... jk kidding. Sorta

Pete's message to Tracy got me laughing. It's fun to see how friends deal with things through the years.
As for the camera comments while diving, as I and others have said before, no photo is worth anyone's safety or damage to where you are diving. The only time I ever make contact with anything while diving, (unless there is some mistake made somewhere -- as after all no one is "perfect"), is hard rocks or soft sand. Other than that, I stay away from anything that might be damaged, broken or imprinted (like silt or clay).

LoL Pete! Thank you. I wish more cave divers were as frank and candid as you when it comes to pointing out poor skills. :-) The scooter issues have been resolved. I took a scooter class and I have a new respect for low hanging rocks. :-) Now I love scootering. It's a blast. Yep Gene you have impeccable camera skills. Some of the positions you get yourself into for shooting are works of art in and of themselves. :-)

Quote:

---

http://www.cavedivinginstructor.com/...fore-you-shoot

apply the same principles to video...

---

http://www.cavedivinginstructor.com/...iv9fvrc02t2elo

Ok, this is OT but I have to ask. Why is the guy in the tux/drysuit combo holding a gun? Protecting a wedding at Ginnie from bad divers? Nice pictures btw.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bent

http://www.cavedivinginstructor.com/...iv9fvrc02t2elo

Ok, this is OT but I have to ask. Why is the guy in the tux/drysuit combo holding a gun? Protecting a wedding at Ginnie from bad divers? Nice pictures btw.

---

Bent, that's not a gun, that's a toy... :)

that means she can now say she does ULTIMATE CAVE DIVING? :-)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Superlyte27

Wow, do you guys know the significance of that statement?

I was once banned from a forum for writing in a private message to a friend that TracyN was unsafe and going to die in a cave. There's never been anyone who has taken more crap from me about poor skills than Tracy. For months and months I blasted her about the fact that her buoyancy, trim and frog kick sucked. She always countered with disbelief and stated that she couldn't be that bad or she wouldn't have passed class.

I dove with Tracy a year later (now more than a year ago) and was amazed at her SAC rate, trim and buoyancy. She looked amazing in the water. I couldn't believe it. She dove A LOT, worked on the skills that suffered and looks great in the water. She could have ignored all the advice her friends gave her and stuck her head in the sand, but instead she worked at resolving the issues. Great Job Tracy.

Now, if we could just do something about your attention span with scooters? HAHAHA.... jk kidding. Sorta

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bent

Why is the guy in the tux/drysuit combo holding a gun? Protecting a wedding at Ginnie from bad divers? Nice pictures btw.

---

Ask Derek @ Light Monkey

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Superlyte27

I was once banned from a forum for writing in a private message to a friend that TracyN was unsafe and going to die in a cave.

---

Pete, are you claiming that was the only transgression leading to the ban? :yawinkle:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WEPIV

I stay away from anything that might be damaged, broken or imprinted (like silt or clay).

---

So what do you do in a bedding plain with nothing but silt in the bottom and your own Profile already reaching the ceiling but the cave continuing looooong?
The only solution to be able to stay away from the silt would be turning the dive before entering such bedding plain, no?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bent

http://www.cavedivinginstructor.com/...iv9fvrc02t2elo

Ok, this is OT but I have to ask. Why is the guy in the tux/drysuit combo holding a gun? Protecting a wedding at Ginnie from bad divers? Nice pictures btw.

---

Thanks, James Bond concept shoot arranged by Derek who happened to be renting a Tux for a friends wedding. LOL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

So what do you do in a bedding plain with nothing but silt in the bottom and your own Profile already reaching the ceiling but the cave continuing looooong?
The only solution to be able to stay away from the silt would be turning the dive before entering such bedding plain, no?

---

I don't think Gene will ever find himself in this situation. :-)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

So what do you do in a bedding plain with nothing but silt in the bottom and your own Profile already reaching the ceiling but the cave continuing looooong?
The only solution to be able to stay away from the silt would be turning the dive before entering such bedding plain, no?

---

The solution is easy. Bring a shovel.

Well they made it so dang easy to cave dive now that anyone with a thumb, training, a guideline to the surface, a dive plan, dive equipment, an air source, adequate breathing gas, a decompression computer or deco schedule, navigational equipment, redundant lights, redundant other ancillary equipment, exposure protection, fins, mask, certification, endurance, perseverance, fortitude and a snorkel can go muck up the place. :) they even let me dive caves now. Working on trim and buoyancy every dive so I can fly under the Peter radar..

edit: cave diving is freakin hard, this post was a joke.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're right!!! its so easy and cheap too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

So what do you do in a bedding plain with nothing but silt in the bottom and your own Profile already reaching the ceiling but the cave continuing looooong?
The only solution to be able to stay away from the silt would be turning the dive before entering such bedding plain, no?

---

Thanks Tracy for your comments about this.
I was talking about what I do while shooting photos underwater and in that case the only bedding plane I have shot in has been the one at Jug which is of course hard rock, top and bottom.
Silt means bad photos, so staying away from it and/or keeping it undisturbed is key!
Danke,

Gene

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WEPIV

Silt means bad photos, so staying away from it and/or keeping it undisturbed is key!

---

;) Very true.. but again what if there is potentially lots of photo Options behind that?
I am asking because I had this Dilemma on my last trip in Mexico. I did turn but maybe I should have worked through it ??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Superlyte27

Now, since I've taken a few minutes to point out your weaknesses, lets point out some of mine. Ready? 1. I'm a prick. 2. Yup, that really encompasses it all.

---

I'd like to point out that Pete is being modest. As one of his biggest fans, I'd consider him to be a BIG prick. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nitrogenius

;) Very true.. but again what if there is potentially lots of photo Options behind that?
I am asking because I had this Dilemma on my last trip in Mexico. I did turn but maybe I should have worked through it ??

---

As long as safety is observed and no damage is being done to the cave -- and if it was part of your dive plan -- you could maybe proceed.
Assuming whatever silt gets kicked up won't be following you.
Before any photo dive, we always talk about all aspects of it and of course the thumb always rules.
(As for Pete, he has had and continues to have my respect.)