With all the talk of "degradation of training" last year, has anything changed?
I know the CDS started that mentoring program... is anyone mentoring through it?
Printable View
With all the talk of "degradation of training" last year, has anything changed?
I know the CDS started that mentoring program... is anyone mentoring through it?
Went all afternoon wthout a repy? Gove divin' I guess.
Diving has become like anything else. What do I mean by that? Easy, been to a kids football game lately? There are more cheerleaders than players. Each school has 5 teams for each age group cause we are doing it for fun. Got to learn you may not be good enough somewhere, may as well be young. I remember when each school had ONE little league team for each age group. Took me two darn years to make the team, but when I did that put me in the top 15 baseball players in junior high out of 75 kids that tried out. Nobody is turned away and blown off for not being able to cut it. I've seen people handed cards that could not run a line in a train tunnel, much less the ear at Ginnie. I applaud instructors that make their students feel like they were pushed to the limit. When I took intro, there were three northeast "he man" divers in the room next to us. I thought they would make me and my buddy look like jerks. First day we dove, they got the garbage can gear check and did only one dive after spending 2500 bucks between them to get squared away. The next day two of them had quit and the other one didn't look so well. We were scared we weren't gonna pass. Never had I seen so many problems thrown my way, but we overcame as were instructed. On the last dive at Peacock I was frozen and tired but when the instructor reached out to shake my hand after the last drill I felt like I had climbed Everest.
On later trips to cave country I saw people getting cards for getting in and making it back out and show crap form the whole trip. Was not the standards of any instructors I'd seen before. One of the Ginnie regulars told me it was now tourist caving and was the card above intro now.
But then the class I took was not the one the older guys had warned me about. They did the bats circuit with a stage for Full Cave back in the day. Heard of a Florida room dive for intro too. Good times.....
This stuff is dangerous. We should have the highest cull rate for any diving activity. What are the pass-fail rates now?
I agree with you. I was hoping something actually came of all the talk, but it seems to be business as usual.
Don't let people hire bad instructors. They will get better when they can't eat.
Not saying post their names, just guide who you can.
Don't give money to the certification agencies by donation or your membership dues, they'll figure it out. Send them letters or evidence of this bad instruction.
Grab a newbie and help them. Respond to their calls/posts for buddies.
Dive with'em!
Give them feedback and help them build their skills.
Same baseball theory applies when you don't do anything but only observe--you're the cheerleader.
The NSS-CDS had established a Cavedive supervisor program. So dive master or higher can take a free class, and lead dives. They also must have insurance which they can purchase after successfully completing the free class. This was an attempt to make mentoring more available, and cheaper than hiring an instructor for the day. Its not much but its something.
Why not post names of bad instructors (not rhetorical)? Almost everything thinks their instructor was great. It's a combination of confirmation bias, and not knowing any better. And what about those who know their instructor was sub-par, but want to be a nice guy about it... or just don't want their own skills (seen as a product of a sub-par instructor) called in to question? What about those that had personality or teaching method conflicts, and now think their instructor is a dick? If divers are a poor judges of their own ability, what makes them any better judges of their instructors competency?Quote:
Originally Posted by floridabob
I agree... and I've found most divers more than willing to dive down to anyone's level... but that's been happening, and will likely to continue to happen. It's definitely good, and we'd likely see more and worse divers if this wasn't already the culture of cave diving. How many of us didn't have someone happy to dive down and point out where we could improve?Quote:
Originally Posted by floridabob
I think it was a noble effort, but the CDS has two problems. The first is liability. They won't continue to exist if they increase the rate at which they rack up court/lawyer costs. The second is a conflict of interest. Those that involve themselves with the CDS are those that stand to benefit. I subscribe to the subjective theory of value. So that benefit is a personal matter. A lot of us value seeing the damage to caves minimized, and access to caves preserved. Some of us value increased exposure as a cave instructor. It is a conflict of interest for those that are involved for that reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sly-vester
(I don't know any of the board members, I'm not accusing anyone of anything... but as Brett Hemphill said "a system is designed to get the results that it achieves"... I am simply discussing the current "design".)
I don't know the solution. I'm just hoping the dialog doesn't stop until there is a solution.
For anyone who hasn't seen it, it's worth watching:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEU5daj6Q28
So start posting. See if you can have a sticky created where people can place an instructors name on a bad list.
One reason not to: subjective. I dont think people can separate emotion. Frankly, it's the Agencies' responsibility to address issues. Anyone that has complaints should log them with the instructors agency. The members' role is to police the Agency. Hold them accountable to holding their representatives accountable.
Brett just brought this up Sunday, since he was involved in the original paper, and he was wondering what had been done with it. Doesn't seem like much.
I can't get that incensed about this topic. If the Agency doesnt show concern about their name being next to a poor instructor or instructor trainer then who am I to change them? I vote with my support and my funds. If it matters, if the movement is big enough, if it gets their attention then it will be on their meeting agenda.
By the way, my view of the dive supervisor role: the same pool of good and bad instructors are now making copies of a copy...
Not saying the thought is bad but what's the controls?
Bob
Thank you for the link, that video was not only very interesting but great fun to watch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenwood_60
That's an interesting idea. I agree that people can't keep their emotions out of it. A large enough sample should de-emphasize the outliers.Quote:
Originally Posted by floridabob
What about creating a list of what "we" consider the bare minimum you should expect from your cave training? Drills that should be done, and passed, before you should consider yourself a qualified whatever level cave diver. Maybe some self tests that one could perform in the water, and determine if their skills meet what the cave diving community considers to be a minimum acceptable standard. The idea is to put a little bit of objective measurement in. Divers could read this list before and after training. Before, and they'd have some litmus tests to help them keep an eye on their own instructor during class.
I understand what you're saying on the supervisor program. I don't think there is much to worry about, since no one seems to be doing it. IIRC, you were required to have insurance that usually only an instructor would have (please someone correct me if I'm wrong here). Which would mean, unless someone REALLY wants to spend money to officially mentor divers, the only instructors would be in a position to take advantage of this program. Of course, they wont bother, they can charge for the same service. Those that really want to mentor will simply do it unofficially, as has always been done.
You're welcome. It's one of the things the CDS does that I really enjoy. I need to try to get to this year's conference.Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
A few more random thoughts...
1) Consider an independent accreditation group. No conflicting interest, as there is no other interest (at least to start). The trick would be to provide something of value to either the instructor or the students. I think the problem with the CDS trying to fulfill and accreditation role, is that the value they'd have to provide would be to the instructors. An independent group could focus on providing value to students. Another issue would be providing enough value to the people who run the group, such that there is enough value for the amount of work required. This likely means this group should take very little work to maintain, so that the small value an individual receives outweighs the direct costs. A well designed web service may be capable of handling the bulk of the work.
2) Consider a mentorship program that costs nothing to be a mentor, and allows a mentoree to receive a cave certification once complete. Ignoring entirely the logistics, this would put pressure on instructors to provide something of significant value. Prospective students could now get questionable training and a card for free, why pay an instructor for questionable training and a card? Now the logistics... no idea. It's likely not possible.
I think it's worth mentioning that cave training is not all a like. That certain agencies have a higher standards to become instructors. For example for NSS-CDS one has to be approved by five instructors trainers to become an instructor, other agencies one person signs off on you, and that is usually the person you pay.
That's great information, that should be published somewhere every prospective student that looks at the CDS website should see. It's also information that could be collected and become part of a sticky post. I assume the NACD has similar standards to the CDS. Anyone that knows care to post?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sly-vester
Is that procedure the same for cross overs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sly-vester
I cant speak for the NACD. I just wanted to make a point that its not a degradation of training with all agencies, there are just agencies with lower standards for becoming an instructor and for dives required to satisfy a class. I am not an instructor so I am not the one to ask about crossovers.
Thank you, that was a very informative thread!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sly-vester
Most of this seems a bit like recreating the wheel. It is the agency's place to uphold or amend their standards. It's our place to share our values and support. Those that profit should work at this overhaul or enforcement some are calling for.
Now putting a post that shares Best Demonstrated Practices/skills bullet point by bullet point might be interesting. Not necessarily exactly The How (because not all will agree) but The What.
For example:
1-know your teams basic hand signals. Review before the dive.
2-be fluent in 4 kick and directional techniques
I'm just making up #### but you get the point.
The main problem would be legal liability. A few years back Scubaboard was sued for $10 million by a foreign dive op that received negative publicity in a thread and suffered cancellations. Even though there was legal precedent that the host of the BBS is not responsible for what is said on the board the case was still allowed to precede. For better or worse everyone is allowed their day in court even if the case has no merit. In the end SB won but still needed to pay for the cost of defending the lawsuit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenwood_60
http://www.undercurrent.org/UCnow/di...tor201004.html
One of the issues of the US legal system.. In Germany if you sue someone and loose you are accounted for their legal cost!Quote:
Originally Posted by ams511
Maybe it is already in the thread linked (I did not read that one)
But AFAIK in NACD you need 3 recommendations by IT to become instrtuctor in case you want to cross over.. If you proceed through the ranks of NACD all along it is only the IT who trains you..
That's how I've been told by my IANTD Instructor who wanted to cross over.. Somewhat hearsay though..
You can't put "bad" or "crappy" anything on a posting board. Legal problems will abound. Many years ago there was a posting board concerning aquarium fish. A few people , including some mods bashed a supplier of fish goods, namely live plants of all things.
The place was named something warehouse. They called in something swearhouse because of what they thought was lesss than ideal product. It was a complete legal meltdown costing the board owners and mods about 10 grand in legal fees in 1995 dollars.
While a students possible well being could be altered by such a list, the ramifications are staggering for those well meaning people participating in such discussion.
Better leave it at name dropping of great instructors and not mention the percieved lesser ones.
When an activity goes from a specialized endeavor with relatively few "hard core" participants to a mass market recreation it's hard to avoid some consequences. The same things have happened in open water recreational diving and in downhill skiing, and no doubt other areas as well with which I'm less familiar.
1) More people want to participate, due to effective marketing or the development of a "coolness" factor in public perception.
2) There's money to be made selling instruction and equipment.
3) Training gets easier, standards get lower, courses get shorter.
4) The competence level of the average participant diminishes.
5) Options arise to meet the desires of people who want to participate without a large expenditure of time, money, or effort.
6) See number 4. Now we're in a descending spiral of lower expectations and diminishing competence.
There is still excellent, arduous, and comprehensive training readily available for people who want to take cave diving seriously.
Unfortunately, there are also apparently options for people who want to take the quick and easy route.
At least in cave and other forms of technical diving this is still a topic of conversation. In recreational OW diving and in downhill skiing, very few people think it's even an issue anymore - expedience in training and mediocrity in performance have become the accepted standard.
Mike
The same thing can be true in the U.S., depending upon the state. ScubaBoard is located in Florida, and Florida laws would have done a lot to prevent this from happening. But the Internet is a world-wide phenomenon, meaning you can pick your venue. In the ScubaBoard case, the suit was filed in Austria. If nothing else, that means the ScubaBoard personnel had to fly to Austria to give depositions. It also means that if the court did order the plaintiff to pay court costs, the plaintiff could shrug that off, since it's pretty tough to force that between countries. The actual terms of settlement of the ScubaBoard case, like most such settlements, is not open to the public. I know the ScubaBoard ownership was ultimately satisfied with the results, but they did not disclose the full details.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrogenius
There is another case that I believe has a more important precedent. A couple of years ago a doctor was running his motorboat on automatic pilot while he made himself some coffee. As a consequence, he was not ready to change course when a dive boat tried to warn him and even turn in front of him to cut him off. He ran over a diver, who lost his legs. He continued on, not rendering aid, and called his lawyer to meet him on the dock. The court case did not go well for him, as you might expect. As you also might expect, he got a lot of criticism on scuba discussion boards. He then sued individuals, specifically some on a spear hunting forum, because they were saying unkind things about him. I don't know how it came out--the last I read, the individuals he sued for saying unkind things about him were preparing their legal defense.
I would also like to point out the recent statements from IUCRR explaining that they have stopped posting incident reports on cave diving because of a fear that they might include some comment in one that might lead to a lawsuit.
So true.. And I think the easiest first way to distinguish between the tow of them is the concept of the offer: If the training is a fixed course price or if it is a price per training day according to the requirements..Quote:
Originally Posted by MORGAN
Only the latter does allow a real challenge in the training IMHO..
The first is always under some "time pressure" to get the student "through"..
BTW.. My cave training took an overall of 12 complete training days.. especially cavern was somewhat hardcore in that regards as it took 6 (!) training days to complete and pass..
And belive me it was not for not being prepared for the class (and yet I was unprepared ;) )
BTW.. all follow up classes from cavern on seemed somewhat like a piece of cake in comparison..
The overall underlying concept of the training was: no overhead whatsoever as long as you are not 100% ready yet!
Quite frustrating at that stage but so much better in the following stages..
Not saying that other concepts can not have the equal outcome, but I fully favour that concept after having been through it.. During: I hated it!!! 4 full days (equalling then already the money that some combined Cavern/Intro courses offer as flat price) and not even having seen the inside of a cavern yet makes you think! ;)
Thanks for the insight John!Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAd
Jason, nothing has or will be done. Its all pretty much a buddy club. There was a thread about the mentoring program on here but that seems to be gone. Some thought it was an attack on Jim, maybe it was but maybe there was some credibility in their concerns. I for one like Jim, and know a few very strong cave divers he trained. I am not a supporter of that mentoring program. It looks like another buddy program, the only mentor name I saw I would support was Kelly Jessup, hell I saw one of the other ones that was mentioned once and thought they were a cavern student and they were full cave. Bottom line, the quality of cave diver continues to diminish because too many are trying to be a cave instructor for a living, a cave instructor when they barely cave dive themselves, and my fav a cave instructor because its cool. I think if you want great instructors, start making the first qualifying item to start that is ten years post full cave and a min 1k full cave dives.
Divers with two years experience are now trying to be a Brett Hemphill or Curt Bowen and nobody lets them know just how dumb they are. You cant replace twenty years experience with ego, and those few who do say something seem to get preached too that they shouldn't be the scuba police. Which is funny because every single time there is a death there is a twenty page thread about how to prevent it. Might as well be saying here, go kill yourself instead since the reality is the training organizations want your money and that's about it and most individuals keep their mouth shut until there is a thread about a death. Maybe one of the computer geniuses on here should create a rate the instructor program and make it anonomous by choice for those worried about hurting buddies feelings. I will get off my soap box, I just think its sad that with ALL these instructors now that I will only recommend around 4 or 5. The rest pretty much suck. Looking cool is obviously more important than having a love of the caves or turning out quality students.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Carlisle
Time is no measure of worth.
I think you have no clue what you are talking about ,every one of the cave mentors on the NSS-CDS list is an outstanding cave diver. I could care less about cave country Politics, but id put their dive experiences against yours any day. CARE to challenge that - then why not put your money where your mouth is and become a mentor.... Thought not.
It's not a buddy club it's about training for survival.
I had TJ Johnson as an apprentice cave instructor and Jim Wyatt in full cave- both were outstanding and demanding trainers. You know what? Either probably doesn't like the other- but both were more invaluable to me then you can imagine bringing aspects of cave to me.
I'd trust either with my life. Any instructors u trust that much?
Dan-O
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
I agree that there should be a very restrictive set of prerequisites to become a cave instructor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Carlisle
1000 cave dives is probably not a bad figure as well. one could add a set of qualifying conditions to those like different cave environments (e.g. 1000 cave dives in one system in FL certaintly does not make the same experience as if these were spread out to different cave systems throughout the world)..
I do not see the need for any time requirement like those 10 yrs. you mention.
The n# of dives in different conditions does give you all you need. I'd even say the more dives you do in a shorter time period the more the actual experience gain..
I will always think the time is very important, I do agree that having experience in many different systems like you mention is great too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrogenius
What experience in relation to cave diving does sole time give you when you are actually not cave diving?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Carlisle
What makes the time important?
Maybe I am overseeing something, but at the moment I tend to discagree on the time aspect.
To set some extreme examples with the limits you proposed:
A) Instructor with 500 cave dives in year 1, 400 in year 2, 20 in year 3 and then 10 cave dives a year for another 8 years..
B) Instructor with 100 cave dives per year for 10 consecutive years
C) Instructor with 500 cave dives per year for 2 years
My choice in regards to best instructing experience would be as for diving significantly often enough to be at the most up to date skills and knowlegde
C over B over A.. yet only B and A would qualify according to your rules
I understand your points, but seriously, why overcomplicate everything? Do you truly believe people will be more likely to follow rules that take into account every possible situation and scenario for every cave and/ or background that may arise? All that does is make rules that are so over convoluted to the point that the average person needs to consult a lawyer to find which unique situation applies to their dive? Perhaps that is simply why the originators of the rules kept them simple, so that any one could grasp the concept of this is what you are allowed and what you are not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrogenius
To my mind, you're in a class, or you're going cave diving. I think the term "mentor" lends a false sense of security to the ment-ee.
I am not trying to complicate anything. I was advocating the oposite. For me a high prerequisite on actual cave dive experience as in #cave dives is enough..Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hammer
It should be significant though, so a 1000 seems a good number..
That was my point..
When I was going through open water training there was a box on the paperwork to check if I was interested in becoming a scuba instructor. I asked my instructor, "Are they aware I am a beginner?" :roll:
Diving a lot in a short time will never be the same as someone who is around a long time. If I must give you a true example I can. How about a guy named Bruce, nice guy, dove all the time like you list, now DEAD. How about Kelly Jessup, doesn't dive every day, been doing it 20+ years. He like most 20 year vets gave himself time, time to learn, time to have issues and sort them out, time to lose too many friends. All of this takes time, not rushing to be an instructor cause they think they know it all. I will always put their experience over anyone that just dives a lot for a few years. Hell most are gone at the five year mark anyway. I have over 800 hours in caves, lot of people including Aquaman trust my decision making in them and I would tell you right now that I have a lot more to learn, just for the record I will not be an instructor. Time is of the essence, those not patient are those I don't care to dive with. Kelly, sorry to use you in that but it is all out of respect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrogenius
I've been at this for almost eighteen years and have yet to have a friend die in a cave. I've only had one acquaintance die in a cave, and it was ruled a heart attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Carlisle
I think this is 2 seperate topics here..Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Carlisle
One is the skillset for an instructor to train you. Here the skills grow for one with the sole repetitions = overall number of dives, but as well there is a factor of time. This factor works the oposite, the less number of dives you do a year the "lesser" the skillset in general. Not saying that e.g. one with viewer dives per year can not have the overall better skills, but there is a strong correlation..
A trainer doing constantly a fair amount of dives (I there include training for the diver him/herself) has a good chance to do as well as the one doing a vast amount of this in a short timeframe as long as a certain threshold is met. And for a diver my stance is that to maintain shape one has to do at least 50 dives a year, better 100.. So for an instructor I would see this at a 100..
So training of skills is task no1 in training.
The second part is attitude..
For the attitude I agree, the sole lapsing of time with its correlating life experience being collected can have a very beneficial effect in regards to attitude as it just goes with sole age as well.. Point is it CAN.. There is no guarantee whatsoever that in fact it will have such effect.
Now I do not now Bruce, nor do I know what happened. As training teaches us as well as ongoing accident analysis in almost all cave diving accidents at some point there is a Human erreor and a deviation from the rules involved, even for the trained divers througout ALL levels. Therefore there are for sure as well examples where divers and instructors have dived which passed your 10 year milestone.
I still think such sole timerelated milestone does not serve the purpouse you outlined in your post. I get your point, I think, however still I think it is the wrong answer.
I think key here is general attitude and this is the task of the instructor trainers, to make sure that integrity towards the right attitude in technical and especially cave diving is maintained. That again has only little to do with time..
Will take quite some more years for me to get there ;) But I already now agree in regards to the learing aspect which I firmly believe applies to everyone..Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Carlisle
Cheers,
Frank
These numbers you guys are throwing around are not even close to realistic. Minimum 1000 cave dives to become an instructor is a good number, huh? I wonder how many instructors had 1000 cave dives when they started out? Let me guess, less than 10, ever, on the entire planet? Whoever came up with that number doesn't realize how many dives/time that is IMHO.
Someone supposedly does 500 cave dives in one year? C'mon. I bet that you couldn't even find ONE full-time cave instructor that does anything close.
Besides, what counts as "a dive"? Can I do 5 dives a day for 20 min each and count that? Most of the people here probably know what the number in ones log book means anyway.
Generally, I am with Kevin though. If you crank out a ton of dives in a short time, one could argue, that his experience is not that great.
Sorry Nitro, I am not trying to bash you here, but I have heard so many storys about, how many dives some people did and often times it just doesn't really add up.
Although I am approaching 1,200 dives, I have never made more than 80 in a year. Now that I have moved to Florida I hope to figure out what I'm doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrogenius
Even if the 1000 dives were real, the number means absolutely zero.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
Say someone lives close to Peacock, goes there once or twice a day and does mainline dives along the Peanut and the Olsen lines on each visit, with a short surface interval of 15 minutes.
That would make it 2-4 dives a day.
Now what exactly would the great qualification of this diver be after 1000 dives of this format?
How is his/her qualification different after dive 1000 compared to the qualification after the 100th dive?
I would assume it's probably much the same...
I'm sure everyone has different expectations regarding the skills, experience and general qualification of an instructor. Personally I'd rather be trained by someone who spent 300 hours in very different and challenging environments, constantly pushing his/her personal limits, than someone who spent 2000 hours along the first 1500' of some comfortable tourist cave.
The above answered in order:Quote:
Originally Posted by Omisson
"Time is no measure of worth" Yeah, that's what people with no time always say! Time allows for reflection on risks, tasks, and goals. It provides opportunity to meet others in the cave community. It allows you to see progression and direction in the sport.
Why should Kevin want to involve himself with CDS's mentor program? I've first hand seen him offer and go on cavern and intro level dives with folks visiting the Marianna area. (Kinda-like mentoring)
Diving for survival might be better addressed by specific curiculum, training materials, skill evaluation, etc. which is beyond mentoring. At least, this is what organizations that demand success do.
As for Kevin not knowing what he is talking about, I'd bet his skill set and experience far outweigh yours. How much cave diving are you doing up in New York? At least Kevin does cave dive regularly. I'll suggest right here that you're the one that doesn't know what he's talking about.
There are a number of cave divers/instructors/ITs that I trust for the purposes of cave diving. ALL HAVE MANY YEARS of CAVE EXPERIENCE. Anybody else I view as me having to be in instructor mode.
Having done only a little less than 600 dives at all in my now 7 years of diving I very well understand how many dive a 1000 dives is as well it is for cave dives!Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
But thanks for the trust :roll:
And if it is less than 10 on the planet that had that, well maybe the message is in regards to apparently observed "Degradation of Training" the standards for the instructors are currently too low..
I still think 1000 cave dives to become cave instructor is a good number and YES I do realize how many dives that is!
Well look at Mexico and talk to the full time instructors there, which have their own business and when not teaching guide.. Maybe you'll be surprised how easy it is to find much more than ONE getting close to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by bent
Nevertheless it doesn't really matter how realistic this number in fact is or not..
Please read again in which context I mentioned the 500 dives a year..
You might notice that this includes the words extreme and example. These examples were solely used as an exagaration to stress my point. They did not even represent the intent to be realistic!Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrogenius
Nevertheless I know at least one instructor who has done almost 500 dives over the last 365 days.. and I am quite sure a couple I know in addition are getting close as well, but again.. That was not the point!
Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
I don't think we are far apart here Oliver.. A bit earlier in this thread I already stated that different conditions make much more experience than only one area for example.. Of course one could find an extreme example :-D again showing how the #dives prerequisite doesn't work..
I could now use "bent style" and find arguments how irrealistic your Peacock example is. ;)
But again that is not the point.
I think with a 1000 cave dives (since one might not even be able to understand this number :-D) this prerequisite is high enough that you could expect a significant variety amongst those dives.. (Simplicity to the prerequisites had already been requested once)
Anyways, instead of complaining about how realistic the examples are or what they would mean.
What about coming up with a concrete suggestion how to improve the "Degradation of Training" ? ;)
Cheers guys..
Ok, I am gonna make one thing clear to the troll called Omission, I will ignore al your other posts. I see too many full cave divers who cant run reels, cant do proper air shares, no buoyancy, swim through classes and kick students in the head, don't know if they can make a turn, unsure if they should mark T's, improper gas plans and the list goes on and on. 90% of that small list should have been mastered by cavern and all of it by intro. This happens ALL the time so it kinda pisses me off. I was there when an instructor lost two students, did the training organization do anything? NOPE!! How come? I know I wouldn't want this guy teaching anyone I know or representing me. As an instructor you CANT have a bad day.
I want it clear that I am not bashing Jim or Tony, I am not convinced they could change much if they really wanted too. Too much politics involved. There are others that should know I wasn't talking about them too, if you think I was, ask me. If for nothing else, I made people think. So quit being scared to say the truth and sugar coating everything. Look at how many instructors are actually failing people, not enough by the crappy divers you see. And if an instructor takes no responsibility after class for that diver, then that instructor is part of the problem. When I was coming up through different levels, I wondered why some divers kept their distance form everyone, its pretty easy to see now.
You are lucky, I have known several. I was waiting for Agnes to message me when you called about her, still miss chatting with her but not surprised it happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Agnes and I were exchanging messages about photos the week she died. I still shake my head when I think of what could have been with Wes and his idea of a television show with her. Think Steve Irwin meets a female Jacques Cousteau. I know that show would have been a hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Carlisle
No doubt, I talked to her a few minutes before she left to dive. Figured I would hear from her when I woke up but a few hours later Russell called. Was a sad day. I told her to be careful, she wrote LOL, you know me.Quote:
Originally Posted by WEPIV
This thread reminds me of one of my favorite quotes.
Be the change you want to see in the world.
-Ghandi
I spoke with many people after the 2013 CDS Workshop about training and their thoughts on it and how to improve/change it.
Through these conversations many great ideas were revealed and discussed. For change to occur the hearts and minds of those must change.
This may take years to happen or it may never.
Changes are occurring but not as apparent as we would like it to be.
IANTD and TDI now require an IT and additional evaluator(s) to make an Instructor.
They are following the standard established by the NSS-CDS and NACD with required mentoring with multiple Instructors followed by an ITC or IDE.
I often find myself using the word "tribal" when describing cave diving knowledge and skills.
Knowledge is passed down by word of mouth rather than through text. Skills and techniques are demonstrated and then mimicked.
I cannot list all of the mentors, Instructors and cave divers that I have acquired "tribal" knowledge from.
I feel the best quality an Instructor should have is depth in experience, knowledge and techniques and the ability to explain and relate these ideas , concepts and techniques to students.
After 10 years I realize the learning never stops.
Special thanks to Paul Henierth, Edd Sorensen, Jim Wyatt, Johnny Richards, Bert Wilcher, Larry Green, Reggie Ross, Dan Paterson, Tom Mount, Mike Fowler, Mark Fowler, Jim McMichael, Hal Watts, Lamar Hires, Rodney and Susie, Bill O, Steve Foreman, Jeff Loflin, Rob Neto, Jill Heinerth, Jeff Bozanic, Ted McCoy, Joel Clark for sharing your "tribal" knowledge with me.
You will never know the depth of my gratitude.
If I left you out my deepest apologies.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Oops. Make that TWO acquaintances of mine have died in caves. I guess I sorta blocked her out...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Carlisle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Carlisle
So I'm a troll because I disagree with YOUR assessment? Glad to know you'll be ignoring me. I'll feel free to call out the nonsense whenever I see it...
So, Pshaw.... if you are gonna feign objectivity in your posts don't be shocked when people call you out on it.
You obliquely swipe at Jim Wyatt ... by inferring in your initial post that "maybe something was there".... Relating of course to the in absurd thread on the NSS Mentors -which turned out to be 100% inaccurate, but say you aren't bashing him?
So what part of that rant was even remotely accurate, what exactly was it?
<silence>
As for training standards, the NACD and NSS have multiple ITs as a requirements to get certified as an instructor- so they seem to be on par. As I understand TDI and IANTD just adopted this methodology. So that should help going forward.
If there is any issue in the degradation it likely lies in the failure to instill humility in the students. Humbleness for the very real dangers of the cave, the need to be prepared, the need to plan the dive within the strictures of the training received and the lessons of past diving mistakes.
I know MANY folks who have not finished full cave right off, or have repeated cavern or basic for both of my instructors. Sounds like both Jim Wyatt and TJ Johnson have done their part in the Cave Community of teaching it right. I bet there are others.
Seems to me the Key is to make sure the politics doesn't distract or worse malign solid cave instructors in the name of someone else's personal agendas.....
Dan-O
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2
Nitro,
I don't want to argue back and forth about this, what I said is just my experience. You might know stuff I don't.
I don't think training standards overall are ever going to go up; after all it's a business. Wait until SSI launches its cave program, if it's not out there already.
Politics aside, Kevin has offered to dive with me while I was an Intro diver....and a new one, at that. Besides diving with, he's done a lot for me in terms of talking me through theories and ideas. I really have learned a lot from Kevin, despite relatively short conversations. You're absolutely right.....just because he isn't an NSS-CDS officially-accepted mentor doesn't mean he doesn't do a lot. Even besides all of the politics, that program requires a professional dive certification and standing.....which is not cheap to maintain if all you're doing with it is volunteering your time.Quote:
Originally Posted by diveongas
As far as minimum training requirements go.....I'm too young and too new to have seen training degrade. However, I have seen a pretty wide range of quality. I think that's how it always has been and always will be, but the difference wasn't as pronounced as we didn't have the internet to gossip about who was letting whom get away with an easier class. I have personally seen students pass cave training for errors my instructors would've flogged me for. Another point to mention is that maybe what we as divers perceive as failings in other divers/instructors is just a matter of priorities. For example, I'm critical of a sidemount diver that doesn't have the pride in his diving to keep his tanks in proper trim. However, in reality, that's not a big deal if you're diving big cave....it's just something that rubs me wrong, but it's my bias. How many times is a difference in priorities enough to make us consider an instructor/diver bad?
T.I.R. ?...Quote:
Originally Posted by Omisson
I like it ;)
Doing It Correctly Or a D.I.C. diver, taught by Bert Wiltcher.
Don't be a .. wait. ...
Be a D.I.C.?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Both sound good...
Dan-O
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2
The NACD requires instructor candidates to complete internships with 3 different instructors before being eligible to complete the IEC. The IEC is overseen by a minimum of 2 instructors, usually the training director and a training committee member. These are the requirements for all levels. Usually cavern and intro cave internships are done together and then apprentice and cave. Crossovers must also complete at least one internship with a training committee member or a designee of the training director (usually done if no training committee members are available in the location of the candidate) before being eligible to complete the IEC. So, even crossovers get evaluated by a minimum of 2, usually 3 NACD instructors. The NACD does not allow administrative crossovers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrogenius
As someone who is new to cave diving and is about to start their cavern and intro course next month, something like this would be a fantastic resource. Does anyone have a list?Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenwood_60