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This topic has been brought up in the past, now it is being referenced again in another thread today.
I am keen to know, what exactly is the problem with bringing a scooter into Twin Caves?
I've thought long and hard about it and I do not understand.
Most cave divers that I have seen with a DPV are not able to scooter a cave like Twin properly.
It can be done with a well experienced and properly trimmed DPV cave diver.
I was assuming the scooter is only used to ride to the first fissure, where there is a great attachment bolted into the wall of the cave. The subway tunnel up to the T is, in my opinion, very large.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
Now taking a scooter past the first T, in either direction, would of course be a different story.
To take Jackson Blue as a comparison, scootering to stage rock will require navigating a lot of passages that are much more difficult to pass cleanly than the subway tunnel.
Another big difference is the flow difference between JB and Twin. A little silt in JB gets blown away quickly, but in Twin, it lingers for hours. I was in Twin once when several scooter divers were coming out, and the passage beyond had less than 10' of visibility.
I agree,Twin is virtually like Peacock,and silt outs don't move. I have never seen the attraction of scootering Twin,heck I could scooter Shangri-la,but why? I think most people feel once they are on the trigger they scooter until they are in/out. The fine art of getting off the trigger and swimming through delicate areas,and changing pitch to slow down is being forgotten from some traffic I encounter.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
I can only speak for myself. It's damn lazy. lazy lazy lazy.
For pete's sake is it really necessary in twin?
The cave is a bit more fragile than others, nice silty floor, jb is right around the corner, there is no reason to bring a scooter; take a stage and swim.
I rate a scooter in twin at 8 out of 10 douches....right up there with leaving condom catheters on tables.
I consider someone who espouses cave conservation while scootering in twin as two faced and lacking integrity.
Do we really give a crap about the caves or is that just some bs people repeat in order to feel warm and fuzzy about themselves?
Again I was only referring to the subway tunnel. Taking the scooter further is not something I would even remotely consider.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
This was an honest question and I'm not trying to get a heated discussion started. So I would appreciate if we could leave the rhetoric out of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by mdax
I am assuming that anyone who takes a DPV into Twin would be able to use it properly. I've been in there scootering and I have seen other CDF members do so without leaving a spec of silt. Any impact on the cave would clearly be an answer to my question, if that is due to happen, don't bring a scooter.
As to the reasons to use a DPV in the first place, I would assume that is up to the person doing the dive plan to decide. There are passages that are not on the map and would require at least two stages (for me that is) to dive safely.
And in terms of conservation, this is very easy, a scooter will do less damage (exactly zero) as opposed to taking one or two stages down the fissures and into the low section. Just look at the floor down there.
I personally don't see a problem scootering the subway tunnel and dropping the scooter at the start of the circuit. But a few years ago I went to twin and the lower section was blown there might have been 5' of vis maximum. I was later told the reason the vis was trashed is that an instructor had taken a scooter class into twin and they tried to scooter in the low section. I didn't see this myself but I have heard this story more than once so I assume it is true. I don't know if this was just bad judgement or a complete disregard for any proper etiquette. Now I have seen some really good divers scooter through some small areas and by rolling the scooter out to the side go through a small section without hardly stirring up any silt. Heck I have even seen someone do barrel rolls in a cave about the size of the subway tunnel at twin. I think it all boils down to the divers ability. Some divers have no reason being in a cave on a scooter while others can go through some small areas and not hardly disturb a thing. A few weeks ago I was at Jb and their was a group of divers who were scootering back in the middle grounds area. Their scooters were so negative that they were laying on the floor when clipped off to the line. When I got back to my scooter they had silted up the area upstream of the trash room pretty good. I don't really think one can say you can only scooter in this area or cave. We all have different abilities and we should be able to analyze our own abilities and not exceed them. But sadly this is not the case.
Wowie. And I thought you were such a nice guy, Oliver. With unbelievable air consumption and beautiful trim. The things a person learns on the CDF! :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by mdax
Uh, S.G., this is Oliver, not mdax.Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
I don't know twin, and don't care. If you can reasonably expect to perform a dive without it being a danger to yourself or the cave, then who cares? I came across a video of an excellent diver, scootering the Harper Tunnel. I was cringing at the #### he was on the trigger through. He pulled it off, and didn't seem to think twice about it. Obviously some people have the skills to safely take scooters where others have no business.
I think THIS is why so many people are against it. I've heard time and time again that taking in unskilled DPV divers into Twin is bad. I've heard inexperienced DPV divers in Twin is bad. DPVs in tight areas of Twin is bad. It seems to mostly stem from a class (maybe a few?) that did some pretty hefty damage to Twin using DPVs.Quote:
Originally Posted by bamafan
Disclaimer: I don't have a scooter, never been on the trigger, and I have no plans for any such thing in the near future. However, I read a lot and I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.
Let me see if I can summarize where this is going, for class and non-class dives. Maybe we can find something we all happen to agree on.Quote:
Originally Posted by victorzamora
- (DPV) divers should dive within their skillset, so they cause neither damage to the cave, stir up silt or endanger themselves, their team or any third party
- (DPV) cave classes should be conducted in a an environment that ensures the student is unlikely to cause damage and does not stir up silt. If that can not be expected to happen in a certain cave, class should be held elsewhere. If in doubt, training in open water should be reasonanly safe
- Satefy and conservation of the environment have top priority, comfort/lazyness, goal objectives and other motives have to "get in line"
Any maybe we can leave classes aside and just figure out if, under the circumstances, scootering in Twin is ethically acceptable.
It doesn't count unless it's a Holiday Inn Express. :roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by victorzamora
Yes, I know. That was my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
If the first line item you list is met, then there is no ethical question to consider.Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
Well then, feel free to ignore all opinions I have, facts I post, and thoughts I come up with. Come to think of it, that's pretty much true no matter WHICH hotel I stayed in....Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
This is where I simply don't have enough real-world experience to say much....regardless of what hotel I've stayed in. However, I can't see why your first point couldn't be the stipulation upon which "we" all agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
The only problem I see with it is that most people that WILL do damage to Twin with a scooter think they won't do any damage....or they don't care if they do and will claim to be better, anyway. How do you determine who can and who can't? Do a DPV dive with Edd for him to "allow" it? DPV cert?
This is where current cavediving instruction has failed cave diving students.Quote:
Originally Posted by victorzamora
It is easy for a well trained cave diver to do a self assessment prior to a dive and during a dive. The issue you are seeing and that many have seen in the caves is that many of the currently active divers in the gold line caves do not properly assess their skills and most think they are better in the water than they really are... and that their silt trail proves.
Seems most of this is relevant to cave diving in general, scooter or not.
I think this is needed to fix your statement. I'd even be okay with "most." However, it's unfair to some instructors to imply "all" dive training is bad. But your point is correct. Well, I think it's partially ignorance and partially attributed to entitlement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
Joe already answered that, it is pretty simple. Maybe it is too obvious for some people?Quote:
Originally Posted by victorzamora
The procedure is to get off the trigger, wait a few seconds, and then look back into the tunnel you just came through. Just the same as when backereferencing the cave or when going through small stuff. Looking back and taking a look at how you (or your buddy) are doing, and what to expect in terms of cave and silt, is always a good idea.
Why? Just go in full speed, all the way to thirds, and don't look back. You will have the rest of your life to find your way out through a major siltout.Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
:roll:
No, I got that. I was just continuing on the line of thought of dishonest self-assessment.Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
Tegg said: The issue....that many have seen in the caves is that many of the currently active divers in the gold line caves do not properly assess their skills and most think they are better in the water than they really are
I've seen damage in Hole, Twin, JB. Heck, after a group of SM cave divers came out of JB they were playing in the shallows and I watched as their SPGs shoveled dirt as they were passing under the line. Self-assessment is where I think most things should go, but the people damaging the caves with scooters are probably the ones incapable of doing a good self-assessment. Even if they do blow out the cave, it was their buddy...not them. Or, they were just sloppy this time...they'll do better next time. I know I have zero experience on a scooter, but this isn't confined to scooters....it's true of all divers. Maybe by the time you're cave diving with a scooter you're better than bad self-assessment?
The questions you are bringing up are very interesting and likely worth an entire thread of their own. What role does an increase in experience play when it comes to self-asessment, the general understanding of safety in the caves and the protection of the environment.Quote:
Originally Posted by victorzamora
Because as you say, someone with the experience to run a scooter deep into a cave should know better.
Some other examples might be to no longer analyse banked gas, doing Visual jumps, maxing out thirds, not running a line (in caves where it is probably very essential), getting sloppy with the equipment, touching things, not caring too much about trim in certain situations and again finally "just scootering along" the passage.
Experienced divers should know better, but apparently not so. I wonder if it could be complacency?
Complacency: a feeling of quiet pleasure or security, often while unaware of some potential danger, defect, or the like; self-satisfaction or smug satisfaction with an existing situation.
I just can't seem to remember where I heard this lately but I remember it was a great number of times.
Oliver,
Self awareness does come with experience. In the beginning, too many are too eager to see all and do all with a total disregard to self awareness and the environment. Of course if more then a few instructors hammered this point home to their students in the open water way before entering a cave, the problem would solve itself. Problem is too many instructors have the money in the pocket of this group and another group in waiting. The instructor is in a bigger hurry then the poor student. The sad fact is too many are in too big a hurry to become cave divers. So big of a hurry they just don't care who teaches them or what they look like in the water. This attitude of "I'm a cave diver so of course I look good, is a joke!" The thing that gets me is all the you tube videos that go up and get yanked down because they get made fun of. That should be a serious red flag for self awareness or lack of it. I use to blame the students. While it is partially their fault for being in a hurry and not seeking out a good instructor, the crappy instructor is more to blame. I guess I will put it like this. You get what you pay for. If you want to be better it costs way more then $400 for a full cave card and you will earn the respect you desire. If not, then you simply won't have it. Clowns seem to always get the respect they want. Of course their desire for it is fairly low. Hence the makeup to hide behind. Do you think that's why hoods and masks were invented. So we can't see who it was that blew out the cave or crashed their scooter into the silt making it look like a tractor pull went wrong?
You know my two cents on scootering Twin. If I can swim to the back of JB in high flow on 108's and 4 stages then seeing all of Twin with no flow and shallow depths is a cake walk on 85's. Personally I have seen things and places in Twin few had seen before me according to Edd and Gordon. I found all those because I was swimming when the little low duck under happened across my eyes. Like the room with the leaking chandelier.
My advice. Slow down and smell the roses. You will be glad you did. Oh, and it helps the sac rate tremendously!!
Well Steve, that's very good advice, no doubt. Thank you. It seems we share the love for this beautiful cave! And I agree that the method of transportation is a question of style.Quote:
Originally Posted by speleodiver
I've been to about 2200' in the lower section, but I heard from Edd that it goes for several thousand more and way off the map.
And that might be stretching it just a little on my 95's.
As to the complacency issue, I don't think I could add much to the discussion other than to admit that I have to fight hard to keep it from biting me.
And when it comes to instruction, I would know even less about that.
Most of my diving skills were self-taught and emulated from role models.
I suppose for someone who is not very determined to perform excellent in the water column, even the best instructor will only be of very limited use.