Protecting the Privilege

Lately, there are many posts about deaths, violation of rules and control of those not smart enough to control themselves. Reading through many of the posts, I can't help but notice the same concern over and over. Loss of access to sites. It seems to me if this is the real concern then perhaps a real solution needs to be developed. Why continue to bash people and carry on like it will actually solve the problem. Last year the CDF conference held in Wakulla County spoke about the hazards of cave diving and how to avoid them. There were many valid points communicated that day and I do believe many listened. However, these presentations were largely attended by cave divers. After all, it was a cave diving community event. It will never get the word out to those poor souls like the two lost at EN on Christmas. We all get on the forums and beat the horse to death but honestly, who does this really reach?

The time has come to protect our access. Access is a privilege not a right. Attacking the violators will not get us anywhere. Many times, "saying something" to them will result in further action of the violator to prove you wrong. Let's face it, we belong to a community where a few do all the work to gain, maintain and preserve access while the rest of the community enjoys the fruit of the labor of the few. I'm not saying many do not come out occasionally and pitch in because they do. The point is, a small group is responsible for all the sites that are open today. Work is undertaken daily to keep this access while the majority of cave divers carry on with their daily lives. Yet when a threat is perceived, everyone all the sudden takes an interest in the issue like an expert. If only this same group had the same interest everyday, 24 hours a day. Our community would be a better place.

The real issue over the past few years starting with the influx of new cave divers being trained to poor standards of quality. This is the threat the community brings to itself. My post over the damage at Twin Cave is a prime example of how we have lost focus. The fact a cave diving instructor admits he intentionally blows a cave to induce no viz to teach students the reality is bad enough. The post being taken down and labeled uncivil is the fuel on the fire of the real issue. But the real sadness is absolutely nothing was said to this instructor after several complaints were made not to mention he admitted it in a public forum. What exactly do you expect? Training agencies for the most part have no backbone when it comes to standards violations. Who cares if it is actual training event or a fun dive. The courts won't. You will be held to the highest standard you possess. It humors me that so many instructors beat their chests over their ratings and qualifications they have earned yet out for a fun dive with the gang and all the sudden they are just another Joe Blow because they don't want the responsibility??? News flash, you are in a position of responsibility 24/7. NO EXCEPTONS!! You wanted it and took the necessary steps to earn it. Welcome to the big leagues. Back in the day when I was a young patrol officer, I witnessed an off duty fellow officer get busted down from sergeant to basic officer because someone one complained over him placing a 12 pack of beer in his patrol car trunk while off duty in plain clothes. Now, keep in mind, he had been grocery shopping and had over 10 bags of groceries as well that went in the trunk. At the time, it was promoted for us to drive our patrol cars to aid in public presence . None the less the little old lady took offense and filed the complaint. Looking back, I see the wrong in his action even though it was promoted by the very department that busted him down. The perception of responsibility was gone when the beer went in his truck. This little old lady just knew an officer of the law was more responsible. SHE WAS RIGHT. Yet today some 25 years later certain instructors think this responsibility can be hung up like a uniform and only exists when they feel the need to have it. A waiver does not release you from acting as a prudent person. It is a matter of law you will not win should you challenge it. This is the real issue we face. It is the issue that has created our dilemma and will utilimatley result in loss of privilege or stricter control of our freedoms. We as a self regulating community have two options.

ONE, we stand up and grow a pair and regulate.
or
TWO, we become regulated like we should be.

Now this could be loss of access or even worse, government control.
My thoughts are simple. Agencies start doing your job period. That's it! Stop hiding behind some BS about it isn't the agencies responsibility and act. You issued the certification that gave this instructor or diver the ability to act so I can assure you it is your responsibility to regulate. Why is it only GUE has this:

1.8.5 Executive Suspension of Membership
GUE membership, GUE teaching privileges, and GUE diving credentials are a privilege and not a right. Membership in GUE may be rescinded and GUE credentials may be revoked at any time by GUE within its discretion.

These certifications need to be earned and continued to be earned every day through responsible behavior and actions. Intentionally blowing a cave or taking 4 into lower OG for a trimix class is not responsible. Failing to react to a life or death from fear of a lawsuit is not responsible. No more than driving by the scene of a major accident and failing to stop and render aid if you are capable of doing so. The point here is these cards are revocable. I suggest it start happening before there is no reason to ever issue them in the first place. Fix the problem from the top down not the bottom up. The problem isn't the divers. It's the lack of training and responsibility they have instilled in them. Even worse, many of them are now becoming instructors with no responsibility at all. Or at least they seem to think it can be left at home when needed.
Protect the privilege. Or soon it will not exist.

I'm confused. You start by raising the question of putting word out to the general public, and then you begin to raise an argument against current instructional standards.

First, let me point out, that my training since day one has consisted of exactly what you condemn. The people I dive with on a regular basis regard me as an accomplished diver for my level of training, and are comfortable having me as a buddy. I have been satisfied with my training, and felt it adequately prepared me for the dives I am undertaking. This is not to say there are things I may have done differently, but my sentiment is that you're barking up the wrong tree.

One problem with enlisting an outside perspective is that the general public has no idea what cave diving is like. Ask a friend or family member (especially one who doesn't dive) what they think cave diving would be like and I almost guarantee the answer will be "I don't know". They just know it's dangerous, scary, crazy, suicidal, etc... It might as well be asking a 12 year old catholic schoolgirl what smoking crack is like. People fear what they don't understand, and to be honest I bet 99.9% of people have no desire to understand it in the first place.


The second problem is this one:

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Yet when a threat is perceived, everyone all the sudden takes an interest in the issue like an expert.

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I've been saying ever since the Eagle's Nest incident that the community as a whole is overreacting - to the point that it draws attention to itself. The community as a whole made such a fuss about this, it must have been irresistible to any media scouts when they did a little digging on the subject. I look at it this way - father/son die in an avalance while skiing, the community responds with "well that sucks, but it happens" - end of story. Now father/son die in Florida cave, community responds with "RABBLE RABBLE! TRAINING & STANDARDS! THIS TRAINING...NO, THAT TRAINING...NO, WE NEED TO REGULATE MORE...NO, WE NEED LESS REGULATION!"

From an outside perspective - that sure sounds like we don't have a freaking clue what we're doing. When we can't agree on anything, create a fuss over everything, and perpetuate this fear of big brother coming in...well...that's the perfect recipe for a self fulfilling prophecy. Forgive me if I'm wrong for saying this - but I believe the problem runs deeper than training and standards, that it lies in the fear of loss and the creation of a bogeyman that otherwise would not have existed.

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Originally Posted by pocky

I'm confused.


The second problem is this one:



I've been saying ever since the Eagle's Nest incident that the community as a whole is overreacting - to the point that it draws attention to itself. The community as a whole made such a fuss about this, it must have been irresistible to any media scouts when they did a little digging on the subject. I look at it this way - father/son die in an avalance while skiing, the community responds with "well that sucks, but it happens" - end of story. Now father/son die in Florida cave, community responds with "RABBLE RABBLE! TRAINING & STANDARDS! THIS TRAINING...NO, THAT TRAINING...NO, WE NEED TO REGULATE MORE...NO, WE NEED LESS REGULATION!"

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The cave did not collapse on them. The comparison is not a good one.

This is more akin to a novice snow skiier taking his son on a helicopter ride to the top of a fresh powder mountain and having them both jump and attempt to ski the mountain. They die. The media says the father was irresponsible and they interview professional snow ski instructors who agree. The only difference is the state doesn't come in and say... "We're going to look into how we can regulate access to prevent this type of thing in the future". They do that for caves.

The details are irrelevant to me - the focus is on loss of life within an activity. Would the situation have changed if the cave did collapse on them, or would the communal focus still be on lack of training?

Pocky, did you miss the part where the father was rasing attention to close Eagles Nest? He is an outside source unless I'm wrong and he holds a cave diving certification. But then we would have someone to blame for sure. The post I made is about two separate incidents both of which led to the threat of access possibly being lost. In the second case, the father was an instructor. If his total lack of disregard for the rules of Peacock Spring do not speak of a failure of self regulation then I guess I just don't know what does.

The point you seemed to have missed, is we need self regulation. Yes many have it and perhaps you do as well. But looking at Marty, well it is a bit lacking. Perhaps you should engage the issue of parks we are not allowed to dive and you will quickly find the reason generally point back to a lack of skill and ability on the part of many divers. This in itself says we are not doing something right. Now I will argue the fact that many of us do but I will also point out many do not. This is the issue we need to correct.

Was EN a training issue. Certainly. A complete lack of it!
Was Peacock a training issue. Again, yes there is no way under any agency a 10 year old holds the certs to conduct the dives he did. This is poor judgement at its best when it comes to using a state park site.

If we want to keep on with what we do then we need to be the best we can. I'm sorry for hurting a few feelings but we are not the best we can be. If everyone would step back and be honest with themselves the problem would surface. How many times do you think a cave diver practices skills such as buoyancy. Does a trim check or maybe an out of gas or lost line drill? I can assure you not many will be honest with any of these questions.

I work daily behind the scenes for access. Anytime you want to come ride along you are always welcome. It is the best seat in the house to really understand the problems we face. Problems which will only get worse because the community tends to only talk about them instead for taking actions to correct.

Speleodiver,

The common theme I see is "complete disregard". A problem very easy to identify, but nearly impossible to correct. The disregard of rules, standards, suggestions, wisdom, good advice, or doing as mum says is something that no rule, standard, suggestion, wisdom, advice, or (possibly) mother is going to correct.

I agree with you that self regulation IS a good thing, and I share the sentiment of making things better. The bombardment of issues that I've gotten wind of, both gravely serious and utterly petty, just in the few months I've been diving here as a relative outsider, leave the impression that the cave diving community is akin to a class of 5th graders at recess. Like you, I can't help but ask why this is.

I do not wish to criticize, but regulation without enforcement is really only regulating the good guys. Taking away certifications as a means of punitive action may sway the borderline rule breakers, but I feel it's effect will be limited in the "complete disregard-er" camp. To this I ask - what can be done to punish or at least persuade those who operate outside of our established system without outside regulation? I myself do not have a good answer, but I do not believe an outcry for training and standards is a plausible solution.

I would be more than happy to offer my assistance in finding such a solution, though.

I agree. Complete disregard has run a muck. So who will take the first step? The thousands of divers who are trying to enjoy this sport or the few agencies who hand out the abilities for these divers to participate in the sport. I would rather convince a few then try to sway a few thousand. PADI was in a suit over an instructor who wrongfully neglected his duties and responsibilities by pushing the envelope of standards. They went to court with their high power lawyers with the argument they were innocent and had no legal responsibility to the students. The jury certainly informed PADI otherwise with a 2 million dollar judgment. Personally, from a legal stand point this case is very dangerous. Yes it places the agency at partial risk because without the certification card, the instructor would not have had the ability to be in a position to act as he did. On the other hand, it could very well build case precedent for any agency issuing a license as a privilege to fall victim to the same judgment for failing to act as a reasonable and prudent person would. I can think of one that fits this category in every state. A drivers license. However, sue a DMV for failing to provide responsible guidance and see what happens. My bet is no jury would hand down a judgment in favor of you for fear of losing their own license. This isn't the case in diving. The majority of people do not dive and therefore have nothing to lose or gain if a large judgment is handed down.

To make the point of agency responsibility. Lets look at the first action of Edd Soreson. Had he not acted, two fellow divers would not be here today. Would Edd have suffered had he not acted. No. He had no responsibility to at all. He wasn't on scene or participating in the class. It was the instructor and most likely the agency who would have taken the hit. But, because of Edd and the swift action of his staff, this case never saw the inside of a court. Had this case been in a larger city, I'm sure some where an attorney would have persuaded the victims to sue for mental anguish and some sort of post traumatic stress syndrome related to cave diving not yet discovered. Anyway, back to the point. The instructor in question never even received a phone call from the certifying agency. Now how can an incident like this occur, hit the boards and grapevine and the certifying agency never hears of it. Or was it just a complete disregard for the safety of future students of this agency. Either way, it happens again, my money is there will be one less instructor and agency.

Since many of the agency watch this forum, here is a challenge for you all. How many complaints do you all receive annually and how many of those are acted on? How many are suspended pending an investigation? In the end how many of the gross negligent cases are revoked? Time and time again these agencies were ask to fix the problem and it falls on deaf ears. If the agencies are so arrogant, they won't admit there is a serious issue with the above mentioned case then it is no wonder bad attitudes and egos rule our community. Come on guys, which one will be the leader and step up to the plate. I make number two in the past 9 months calling for change. When is it going to happen? When you all are out of business?

To leave you all with one last thought: ATTITUDE REFLECTS LEADERSHIP!!!

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Originally Posted by pocky

I'm confused. community responds with "RABBLE RABBLE! TRAINING & STANDARDS! THIS TRAINING...NO, THAT TRAINING...NO, WE NEED TO REGULATE MORE...NO, WE NEED LESS REGULATION!"

From an outside perspective - that sure sounds like we don't have a freaking clue what we're doing.

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If you follow the forums,there is a lot of discussion,and many of these discussions are confusing. I am not opposed to the forums,sometimes they provide valuable cave diving information,but for the most part they entertain and provide a social outlet. Yes,there is some real work underway to address the Eagles Nest issues,and while things are being hashed out,you won't see those parties discuss it on the internet. The effort to get Eagles Nest open in the beginning was a long process,and those people didn't enlighten the forums as each process occurred,but announced the end result. From my personal experience,discussing too much activity about a site opening or issues can derail the effort. For example,Jug Hole was closed for many years to cave diving because of concern for the natural plant species in the basin. I initiated the process to get it reopened,but I made the mistake to mention it on the forums that it was a work in progress. The park manager got so many phone calls about when it would be open,and some in a very demanding tone,he got upset,and it just slowed the process down. Lesson learned,so when I made the effort to get Lafayette Blue to allow cave diving access from the park,and started the discussion,I kept it quiet,and off the forums,then when it was official I announced it. There are some good people behind the scenes that work to maintain access at sites,and maintain relations,but they don't use the forums,and most fly under the radar screen,so if people are clueless,the answers won't be found here,just the end results.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

If you follow the forums,there is a lot of discussion,and many of these discussions are confusing. I am not opposed to the forums,sometimes they provide valuable cave diving information,but for the most part they entertain and provide a social outlet. Yes,there is some real work underway to address the Eagles Nest issues,and while things are being hashed out,you won't see those parties discuss it on the internet. The effort to get Eagles Nest open in the beginning was a long process,and those people didn't enlighten the forums as each process occurred,but announced the end result. From my personal experience,discussing too much activity about a site opening or issues can derail the effort. For example,Jug Hole was closed for many years to cave diving because of concern for the natural plant species in the basin. I initiated the process to get it reopened,but I made the mistake to mention it on the forums that it was a work in progress. The park manager got so many phone calls about when it would be open,and some in a very demanding tone,he got upset,and it just slowed the process down. Lesson learned,so when I made the effort to get Lafayette Blue to allow cave diving access from the park,and started the discussion,I kept it quiet,and off the forums,then when it was official I announced it. There are some good people behind the scenes that work to maintain access at sites,and maintain relations,but they don't use the forums,and most fly under the radar screen,so if people are clueless,the answers won't be found here,just the end results.

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Well said!

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Originally Posted by Tegg

The cave did not collapse on them. The comparison is not a good one.

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Actually, it is an outstanding example for two reasons

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Originally Posted by pocky

One problem with enlisting an outside perspective is that the general public has no idea what cave diving is like.

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The first reason being, the general public is unaware that almost all back country avalanches resulting in injuries and/or deaths are triggered by the victims themselves. They are not just an act of nature. Had this hypothetical father and son team VOLUNTARILY sought out AVALANCHE TRAINING (like I did when I was skiing and climbing in the back country) they likely would have been able to identify the possible hazard, dig a test pit, examine the crystal structures and layers and then determine if it was safe to venture onto the snow covered slope. There are NO training agencies that certify recreational individuals as being competent to ski, climb or otherwise venture into the wilderness except for SCUBA diving, in which case there are dozens, because they are profitable.

Secondly, just like non-divers commenting on the EN incident, an opinion was offered about an avalanche accident being a bad comparison without any discernible avalanche experience. Isn't free speech on the internet great!

The only difference between the two scenarios is that the uninformed public perception of avalanches is that they are unfortunate natural occurrences, when in fact both situations are examples of people that were not trained for the dangerous environment that they put themselves in.

I had originally typed up a longer response contrasting climbing instruction with diver training and how climbers have greater access to state and national parks as well as the more rigorous training standards required to become a certified alpine or ski mountaineering guide, but it would not have helped the dive instructor training or dive site access discussions here. Suffice it to say, the climbing industry is a much better model of how to participate in a high risk recreational activity. Perhaps something can be gleaned from it or similar high risk activities outside of the diving community that is useful in regards to these issues.



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Originally Posted by speleodiver

Intentionally blowing a cave or taking 4 into lower OG for a trimix class is not responsible.

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Steve,

I've heard it second or third hand a few times that Rob took a class of 4 into lower OG and I assume this is what you're referencing. Did you report this so that the agencies had a fair chance to investigate it? If not, then what can the agencies do without a formal complaint?

James,

Contact the NSS-CDS. I'm Sure the complaint is public record. Unless of course it has been buried or lost so as to not have to be dealt with. I'm just fed up with the lack of accountability these agencies push when they get drug into nasty situations. The good news is most of them won't survive much longer. We are in a new era of lawsuit profitability. As soon as the benefit no longer out weighs the consequences then they will close down. WOW. What a concept. The benefit no longer out weighing the consequence. Now if only agencies were ran by that concept. Simple fact is there are too many instructor that get away with infractions which that now have become standards violations and soon just out right unnecessary and untimely deaths.

I had a rather interesting phone conversation with a young man at TDI HQ today. When questioned about the agency policy on instructors convicted of felony charges, he didn't seem to interested or worried they had one issuing cards. So I kindly informed him a new website was in creation where crap like this would be posted. If these agencies will not afford innocent students protection from people who refuse to be trustworthy and accountable then they will just have to have it posted so at least unsuspecting people have a fair chance and just maybe the cave community will save its self before another set of students get left in a cave and Edd isn't around. Or even worse some violating instructor runs out of luck when your loved one is under their instruction. Perhaps all those hiding on complaints and known violation standards should wake up before their name is posted as well. Yes, I will be the bad guy since the ones who should be accountable refuse to be. Anyone else interested in joining me to protect our sport feel free to Pm or email me. We are thinking the organization will be Florida Association of Cave Training and Standards because it is way past time for the FACTS to get straight.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

If you follow the forums,there is a lot of discussion,and many of these discussions are confusing. I am not opposed to the forums,sometimes they provide valuable cave diving information,but for the most part they entertain and provide a social outlet. Yes,there is some real work underway to address the Eagles Nest issues,and while things are being hashed out,you won't see those parties discuss it on the internet. The effort to get Eagles Nest open in the beginning was a long process,and those people didn't enlighten the forums as each process occurred,but announced the end result. From my personal experience,discussing too much activity about a site opening or issues can derail the effort. For example,Jug Hole was closed for many years to cave diving because of concern for the natural plant species in the basin. I initiated the process to get it reopened,but I made the mistake to mention it on the forums that it was a work in progress. The park manager got so many phone calls about when it would be open,and some in a very demanding tone,he got upset,and it just slowed the process down. Lesson learned,so when I made the effort to get Lafayette Blue to allow cave diving access from the park,and started the discussion,I kept it quiet,and off the forums,then when it was official I announced it. There are some good people behind the scenes that work to maintain access at sites,and maintain relations,but they don't use the forums,and most fly under the radar screen,so if people are clueless,the answers won't be found here,just the end results.

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Kelly,

This is the kind of action I wish to associate with in this community. As I'm fairly new and not well acquainted, I don't have many contacts, leaving only the forums as a means to connect with fellow cave divers. This community does have a certain enthusiasm that is incredibly unique, but I can certainly see it getting in the way of progress when everyone wants to get involved.

For that reason, I understand that many things be kept from the community at large. However, if the opportunity should arise, I would like to see how such relations are handled from a professional standpoint.

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Originally Posted by pocky

Kelly,

This is the kind of action I wish to associate with in this community. As I'm fairly new and not well acquainted, I don't have many contacts, leaving only the forums as a means to connect with fellow cave divers. This community does have a certain enthusiasm that is incredibly unique, but I can certainly see it getting in the way of progress when everyone wants to get involved.

For that reason, I understand that many things be kept from the community at large. However, if the opportunity should arise, I would like to see how such relations are handled from a professional standpoint.

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There are many opportunities to get involved in many of the processes that make up cave diving,and any of the agencies would appreciate the help-new or veteran. Sometimes it is a pity that people want to label the agencies "cave politics",throw their hands up and walk away. Yeah,people have disagreements,but the cliché of cave politics,which is there is a small extent,is really made into a major extent by the forums and picnic table pontificators. Things are accomplished,and we benefit from it,even though there isn't someone always publicizing what occurred. People who try to handle land owner relations don't want to deal with the forums,because everything you say will be discected,and over analyzed. I like the forums,they are a great source of interaction,but they aren't the source of information,as I said,so many people intentionally stay away.

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Originally Posted by speleodiver

I agree. Complete disregard has run a muck. So who will take the first step? The thousands of divers who are trying to enjoy this sport or the few agencies who hand out the abilities for these divers to participate in the sport. I would rather convince a few then try to sway a few thousand. PADI was in a suit over an instructor who wrongfully neglected his duties and responsibilities by pushing the envelope of standards. They went to court with their high power lawyers with the argument they were innocent and had no legal responsibility to the students. The jury certainly informed PADI otherwise with a 2 million dollar judgment. Personally, from a legal stand point this case is very dangerous. Yes it places the agency at partial risk because without the certification card, the instructor would not have had the ability to be in a position to act as he did. On the other hand, it could very well build case precedent for any agency issuing a license as a privilege to fall victim to the same judgment for failing to act as a reasonable and prudent person would.

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Your example may well work against your argument.

Let's begin by pointing out that agencies like PADI do act when they learn that the instructors they certify screwed up. About a year and a half ago an OW instructor in Virginia was leading a group of OW students on their dive in limited but not too bad visibility and lost track of a student. She separated from the group and died. It took about a week before he was expelled from PADI. Go to the PADI web site and you can find the entire list of instructors who have been expelled or otherwise disciplined. Other agencies do the same.

The problem is that it can only do that sort of thing after something has happened. It does not actively supervise instructors at work. It does not pay them. I does not set their work schedules. Instructors are either working for a dive operation or acting independently. They do not work for the agency.

In the lawsuit they lost, the jury disagreed. So what was PADI's response? They have put out reminders to all shops and instructors that emphasizes that they are not a supervising agency. They have added that language to their documents so a student signs off on an understanding that the instructor does not work for PADI before taking the class.

I think that is a perfectly understandable reaction, and it points to the next possible step in saving themselves from a lawsuit: stop disciplining instructors altogether. The fact that PADI sends out QA questionnaires to students following certifications and then follows up after a student indicates that standards were not properly followed suggests that they ARE in a supervisory relationship with instructors and are thus liable for their actions. In the world of education, we have teachers screwing up all the time. When they do, the college that trained them does not revoke their diploma. That college clearly has no supervisory function. It is the school district in which the teacher worked who would get sued when that happens, because they are the ones in a supervisory role. The reason you never hear about that is because the threat of that is so real that governments have passed laws limiting their liability.

The cost of actively supervising all instructors would be so enormous that no agency can do it, so the threat of a lawsuit is actually liable to create LESS supervision, not more.

John,I can appreciate what you are saying,but why do so many agencies when there is a gross violation of standards,or something that can impair that person's ability to teach,still allowed them to issue c-cards from that agency? or they are expelled,but other agencies allow c-cards to be issued from them?

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

John,I can appreciate what you are saying,but why do so many agencies when there is a gross violation of standards,or something that can impair that person's ability to teach,still allowed them to issue c-cards from that agency? or they are expelled,but other agencies allow c-cards to be issued from them?

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I can speak for PADI and tell you that when an instructor is expelled or suspended, they cannot issue certifications from PADI.

I assume you have examples in mind that seem to contradict that, and since I don't know what they are, I can only guess that there must be a misunderstanding somewhere. Many people are certified by multiple agencies, and I assume it is possible for someone to be expelled from one agency but not another. I am certified to instruct for both PADI and TDI, so I suppose it is possible for PADI to expel me for reasons TDI would not even know about.

I have also heard of people who have been expelled and continued to teach under the name of the agency and without granting the actual C-Card--which is fraud. There was such a case with PADI I heard about a few years ago. The guy disappeared with some cash before people wondering why they weren't getting their cards complained.

Just as an example of what would happen...

A few years ago the credit card I had on file for automatic renewal with PADI expired, and when PADI sent me an email to tell me, they had the address wrong. They sent me a renewal letter, which I foolishly did not read well and assumed was a mistake because I was on automatic renewal. I found out when the certifications I issued were rejected.

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Originally Posted by JohnAd

I can speak for PADI and tell you that when an instructor is expelled or suspended, they cannot issue certifications from PADI.

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You are right,when I had teaching credentials with PADI,they would include the list of who was expelled or or suspended in every issue of the journal. I recall an instructor that got expelled by PADI,and a rightly so,so quite simply they moved over to their NAUI cert,and if that didn't work they had an IDEA instructor card. In the tech world of instruction I think the same issues exist. There is a lot of heresy and second hand information,with somewhere the balance of the truth really exists. So here is a hypothetical question. If an instructor failed a drug screen,and agency xyz suspended them pending investigation and procedure for reinstatement,shouldn't agency abc take steps to investigate and suspending teaching credentials during this time?

Kelly, John,

What can be said of this is that speculation based on hearsay does not further any case we make to gain or retain access. In any tort case there has to be a party that was harmed and someone with legal standing to bring the case before an appropriate court. Aside from a court action. no agency should act on anything based on hearsay, rumor or innuendo if the instructor provides a credible reply and reasonable explanation of the alleged events.

The threshold for the standard of care and making sure the student knows and understands the inherent risks of diving is higher at the beginner level. Simply put its reasonable for the instructor to have beginners practice mask clears in a pool and for cave instructors to perform lost line drills in "0" vis.

In no case does unsubstantiated claims (whether having some merit or not) help gain or retain site access!

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Originally Posted by Ken Hill

In no case does unsubstantiated claims (whether having some merit or not) help gain or retain site access!

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You are right Ken,I digressed from the original thread. But,I also stated as a caveat that internet forums have more entertainment value and social interaction.

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Originally Posted by Ken Hill

Kelly, John,

What can be said of this is that speculation based on hearsay does not further any case we make to gain or retain access. In any tort case there has to be a party that was harmed and someone with legal standing to bring the case before an appropriate court. Aside from a court action. no agency should act on anything based on hearsay, rumor or innuendo if the instructor provides a credible reply and reasonable explanation of the alleged events.

The threshold for the standard of care and making sure the student knows and understands the inherent risks of diving is higher at the beginner level. Simply put its reasonable for the instructor to have beginners practice mask clears in a pool and for cave instructors to perform lost line drills in "0" vis.

In no case does unsubstantiated claims (whether having some merit or not) help gain or retain site access!

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I agree. I really don't see how this issue "protects the privilege," which is the topic of this thread.

But to finish the issue, if you believe an instructor was guilty of some sort of infraction and should be expelled from the agency, but nothing happens, it does not mean that the agency turned a blind eye. It cold instead mean:

1. The agency investigated and found that the charges were false
2. The agency investigated and determined that there was some truth to the matter, but not such that it merited expulsion. In some cases instructor receive additional training to get them back in the groove, or they are briefly suspended.
3. The agency investigated and found the charges to be true but differs with you on whether the charges merit expulsion. For example, there are a lot of people with criminal records holding a lot of jobs around the world. Being convicted of a crime does not mean you can never hold a job again as long as you live. Whether or not a crime unrelated to scuba has anything to do with your ability to teach a class depends upon the situation and is a matter of opinion.

John, Kelly,

Why hearsay 1st, 2nd or third hand does not count. If someone overheard either of you say, lets eat Grandma! They'd think you were the guy with the chianti bottle and the fava beans.

If what you actually said was lets eat, Grandma! The world would see you as a nice young man!