how did these guys get into Cow?
first time in doubles??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih5UqoQQTl0
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how did these guys get into Cow?
first time in doubles??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih5UqoQQTl0
I have never seen anybody try to do a Duncan yo-yo "Rock the Baby" with a reel until now. Flow looks up.
Another statistic waiting to be written down.
The names of the divers, and the date of the dive, are at the end of the video. It should be pretty easy to check. If they did a sneak dive would it be possible for the NSS-CDS to pursue a criminal trespass charge?
The diver in doubles has his bright yellow long hose wrapped once around his high pressure hose. There are several times in the video where it is obvious that the hose comes off the left post and runs down on the outside of the HP hose before it is stuffed between the wing and the tanks before coming up on the inside of the HP hose and then to the divers mouth.
The diver in the single tank is clearly diving a single outlet with a yoke regulator.
Neither diver appears to be using a traditional primary light with a separate canister. They each look like they are using "Intova" or similar lights in their hands or clipped off to their harness.
Watching this video made me very nervous.
Mark Vlahos
Take a look at their Ruth video too. They should definitely not be in that cave. Holy Cow! It's even scarier than their Cow video
This may have been trained cavern divers, practicing for their next class. OW divers probably wouldn't use a reel, and wouldn't know to do tie-offs. The guy in a single tank, was re-tying some of her tie-offs. I do agree they had no business in Ruth.
I found another one they did in Cow, apparently with no primary line. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wf2Tr1v_gY
That would be fine if they were in the cavern zone. Single tank with single regulator WELL into the cave zone on all their videos.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
I have seen single tank divers at the Hill 400 jump n Devil's Eye. Not a good idea, but within limits of Intro, which they might also be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
Don't you need an H/Y valve to dive a single tank to intro limits?Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARIRBpiffz4
Here is the link to the Ruth video
Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
While watching their silt stirring technique, which BTW they seem to have fully mastered, I couldn't help but think I was watching an updated version of a Deceptively Easy Way to Die. I especially dislike the end when the one guy seems to be going the wrong way to the exit and the other diver appears to signal him to where it is.
Kind of weird watching 3 future fatalities on video. Oh well its thinning out the stupid people.
Looks like single tank with only one first stage which would be violation. My guess is they had a 3rd person join them which might not be trained. Should be fairly easy to find out who signed in that day.
I doubt they signed in.
I was thinking the same thingQuote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hammer
Maybe air,but that would be a jump.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
I have forwarded to the information to the NSS-CDS Property Director Nathan Spray. Thanks for the heads-up on the PM's
Tony Flaris
904-210-4550
Wonder if these three knew Spivey and Sanchez, obviously at the same level of judgement.......
On the youtube links the comments say that they are diving with an instructor. Exactly who is it, and how could they possibly let these two people into an overhead? They don't have the basic skill set needed for open water recreational diving.
We were in Cow today and went downstream to blow off some deco. I don't know if it's been reported yet or not but there is some major graffiti carved into the bigger rocks near the cavern zone. They are deep and look like they were made with a chisel or screwdriver and whomever did it came there with the intention to do exactly that. It was sad.
The Pisses me off. did it say anything?Quote:
Originally Posted by TracyN
The videos have been removed from YouTube.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
If I remember it was like a name and year?
I have contacted Mr Blew via Facebook after seeing the videos had been removed. This is a copy of the conversation:
Dear Mr and Mrs Blew
Cow Springs is private property owned by the NSS-CDS. To be able to dive on the site requires a person to be a NSS-CDS Member. If you are interested in becoming a member please see:
www.nsscds.org
Or speak to Cathy at Dive Outpost. In addition divers must show creditials and sign liability waivers before accessing site. Not doing so constitutes trespassing and violaters will be prosecuted to the full extend of the law.
It is my hope tha you both have cave training. If you are diving beyond your level of training I plead to you to seek the training necessary to dive in overhead environments.
If you have any questions please feel free to contact me for additional information.
Tony Flaris
NSS-CDS
Vice Chairman
904-210-4550
tflaris@me.com
I received this response:
Yes we are both nss CDs members and members of our local grotto. We obtained the key from dice outpost after showing credentials signing waver etc. The video on YouTube was designed to mostly our mistakes so that we and others could learn from them. As it seemed to be causing some controversy, I pulled it from YouTube. We all have to learn and no one's skills are excellent from the beginning.
I sent the following response:
Mike
I would be more than happy to mentor you both to become better divers. This service would be at no charge to you.
The NSS-CDS cares very much about your safety and the preservation of the caves.
Please reach out to me so we can setup dates and times.
Kind Regards
Tony Flaris
904-210-4550
NSS-CDS Vice Chairman
Mike responded:
Thank you I truly do appreciate that. We unfortunately live in sc and only get to that area a few times a year. I will be sure to take you up on the offer. We usually plan out a month or two in advance and I will be sure to contact you then. Thank you again for offering the mentoring and I apologize for the controversy apparently caused.
My response:
Mike
I will be more than happy to alter my schedule anytime you are visiting Florida caves to mentor you both.
Kind Regards
Tony Flaris
904-210-4550
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I wonder what credentials (i.e. c-cards) were presented during check in.Quote:
Originally Posted by tflaris
they were with an instructor.Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
Steve
Are you stating that they were with an Instructor during their dive at Cow?
TF
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
they said they were, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by tflaris
Thank you Tony.
Mark Vlahos
Wow I feel for those people. I know that i wasn't a perfect diver out of any of my cave classes; heck, I'm far from it now. I did, however, have some REALLY good instructors along the way, and was fortunate enough to be close enough to cave country to drive down fairly often to work on my skills.
I didn't see the videos, true. But what I did see from the responses to Tony's emails is people who are actively working on their skills and trying to improve. I'm new to this community but... isn't that the kind of people we want? people who genuinely want to get better? And if they are reading this thread, we are equating them to spivey and all but accusing them of graffiti? WTH?
Thanks Tony for reaching out. I really hope they take you up on it.
To Mike & buddy... If you are reading this, I'm not an instructor or a mentor, I'm just a pretty new cave diver. But if you are reading this, I'd be happy to buddy up with you at Ginnie the next time we are both in town.
Thanks Tony for reaching out to them and with the offer you made. Things like that can make a difference.
Also thanks to H2OJoe for bringing this to light in the first place.
Katie
Thank you for offering your time to assist Mike and Danielle. We are started out as something else (except Forrest, I believe he was born a sump diver) and slowly developed into a cave diver. Along the way, hopefully we had buddies, Instructors, mentors that helped us become better divers. Its my hope that we can help preserve our overhead world by reaching out to new cave divers to help them develop and refine cave skills in lieu of scaring them away.
I know that there are many of you currently doing this and I applaud you and your efforts. Keep up the good work.
I cannot speak for the other posters but I'm sure they were concerned about their safety and the preservation of the cave. The incident at Eagle's Nest has all of us on edge.
Tony Flaris
90-4210-4550
If they were diving with an instructor why was someone in a single tank with a yoke k valve? And explain the dive in cow with no apparent primary...dangerous #### right there. The single yoke is one thing but being in there with no primary is plain stupid.
Tony,
I really appreciate your efforts to help mentor these new divers. It goes a long way to educate others in the world of cave diving. Offering to help rather than criticize shows your true character. I still remember diving with you when I was a newly minted cave diver. Your time and patience was instrumental in me turning out as totally awesome as I am (tongue in cheek).
I am fortunate to consider you my friend.
Presumably they presented (Full) Cave cards, as that is what is needed to dive Cow http://www.nsscds.org/nsscdsdivesitesQuote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
I suppose there's nothing to stop someone having a Cave card and choosing to dive a single tank with only one reg though.
Kate and Tony, bravo for reaching out and offering your help. I know even some experienced cave divers who could always learn a thing or two. I've said it in the past very publicly and will do so yet again that be it a dive in the spring basin, or a scooter dive in Ginnie I am always happy to go and dive within limits with other divers. We need more people out there like this. Hopefully these guys take you up on your kind offers. :)
They were diving downstream, which only requires cavern.Quote:
Originally Posted by ianr33
Thanks Forrest for the clarification.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
When diving within the cavern zone... Right?Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Yes, min. Requirements are cavern, sk intro, apprentice and full are fine. Full is required for upstreams.
If instructor is with the my understanding is they could dive a level above their certification.
I did not watch the movies all the way but noticed the single stage yoke which is a bad choice. If they are intro the single tank is what a lot of agencies want you to be, most allow doubles but rather teach singles. Some require doubles which I think is wise and should be required or encouraged by all agencies.
Anyhow, they decided to violate a rule, question would be if 3 people signed in or 2. If they decide to dive with equipment not sufficient enough its bad but don't think there is a lot to do other than reminding them. If they decided to take someone else with them its a different story.
It sounds like they are open to communication, thanks to tony, he reached out and offered mentorship and they did.not blow him off.
Sounds like something got accobmlished, let's see it from that perspective and hopefully they will reach out. If they do and tony does not have time I think someone else will be able to take his place and help out.
Thanks!
I think that what is missing in this discussion does not really need to be directed at these particular divers but to the training process as a whole. Why are instructors accepting divers into their cave programs who are lacking the skills that they should have to be good open water divers. This is all part of the too far too fast syndrome that is getting people in trouble. What is wrong with perfecting their skills at one level before moving ahead? If the instructors are afraid to lose the business why not offer to teach really great basic skills and then bring them forward into the sport?
I applaud Tony's attitude and offer mentoring. This the type of outreach is what we need more. I'd love seeing them turn out as fine cave divers, realize they are in over their end and not pursue...rather than becoming a statistic
Kudos
This tool comes in handy from time to time:
http://keepvid.com/
Not sure it's useful here, but it's worth knowing about.
I think this deserves its own thread, so that it doesn't get lost in this one. I hope that every effort is being made to identify the perpetrator(s) and prosecute to the fullest extent of the law.Quote:
Originally Posted by TracyN
Mike
Quote:
Originally Posted by TracyN
Tracy
Michael Angelo was kind enough to donate his time and expertise and help remove/repair the graffiti.
If you see him out and about please thank him.
Together we can do great things.
Tony Flaris
NSS-CDS
Vice Chairman
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thank you Michael Angelo! You're a great man!
Thanks MA!
Mike
MA, I'm curious how you did it? Air powered disk grinder?
Basic hand sculpting tools and shapers. 35 years of being an sculptor is really what did it. I would like to advise everyone looking at the repair to look but not touch. It's white now but will patina to sienna to blend. Touching retards that natural process.Quote:
Originally Posted by gasdiver
MA
You all should have seen him at work doing it. It was something else. A true artist as far as I'm concerned.
That's nothing, you should see what the Gagliardi's can do sculpturing snow. MA, why don't you post the pix you did on Wednesday in FB and let them decide for themselves? No doubt the man has talent!
But wasn't ma's work on the clay bank?
I think the cavern graffity might be in the limestone.
He did both.Quote:
Originally Posted by huxley
I did the repair banks in 2009. I removed the limestone grafetti this past Wednesday. Both done with the approve of the CDS BOD.Quote:
Originally Posted by huxley
Wow. Carving up the cave.
Unreal!
These people are complete Morons. Really stupid moronic A-Hol*s, beyond comprehension.
I hope they read this and realize how completely moronic they are or find another hobby like Russian Roulette, which they seem to be practicing anyway.
The instructor needs to be blackballed for life!
Dear Idiots from sc :
Get a life and quit cave diving now...
i dont think it was actually the people from Sc that did the carvings though from what i read.Quote:
Originally Posted by scubadude
Thanks ermaclob.
I just read the tread from the beginning again and noticed that the graceful divers being sited may not be the chisel artists.
Sorry if I was offbase on my comment.
Edit:
Dear diver from SC, Take up the offer for some mentoring.
Cow springs has had a history with non-cave divers and it may be hard to eliminate this. For the many years I have used Cow,and before the CDS purchased it,it has been used as a site for open water and uncertified cavern divers,plus artifact hunters would dig up the surrounding land,which has caused some of the erosional issues. Since access to the property is so easy with a couple back ways onto the property,the CDS will be plagued with things like this for years to come.
I appreciate Michael Angelo eliminating the grafitti,because basically grafitti begets more grafitti. The NFSA did a big project of eliminating old grafitti at Jug Hole,from before the state purchased this site. This was a multi-teared project,with us learning how to do this along the way-because you want to eliminate the grafitti and not cause more damage. We are in the process of documenting the techniques used,and writing it up as a "how to" manual. Lessons learned is very superifical scratches can be removed with anything from a finger to a nylon bristle brush. The deeper the grafitti starts to involve different stiffness of brushes,and all the way up to wite brushes and scaling tools powered by a scuba cylinder.
Thanks for your time and efforts, I wasn't aware of the work that was done Wednesday.Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo
When the graffiti was reported I emailed the CDS Bod and asked if they would like me to look at it and suggest a fix. When talking to the Bod it was suggested that if I thought I could repair it go for it. The grafetti is old dated from 2000 and at least 3/4 deep. I used sculpting tools I removed it reshaping the rock with natural shallows and round over removing all tool marks. Knowing Kelly's work at jug I am convinced the white spots where I carved will patina back to its natureal color, if left untouched. I shot before and after pics for documentation purposes so that we can learn. Every time we do this it places like Cow and Jug we learn more on how to retire systems. FYI I am hesitant to post pics or details because we want all efforts to go thru the Bods and land owners. Forgive typos posting from phone with fat fingersQuote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Thanks Michael for the great work you did. I really think the NSS publication "Cave Restoration" needs another chapter for the submerged caves.Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo
Make sure it reads that the Cow violator was caught, paid some $9000.00 out in attorney fees, fines and restitution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Thanks to Michael and others who took valuable before and after pictures. Without them the prosecutor was not able to imagine his ability to dive that deep and that far into the cave without considerable risk to himself. It made the difference.