http://www.nsscds.org/node/381
Statement from the Chairman of the NSS-CDS regarding the Christmas day incident at Eagles Nest.
Warmest Regards
TJ
http://www.nsscds.org/node/381
Statement from the Chairman of the NSS-CDS regarding the Christmas day incident at Eagles Nest.
Warmest Regards
TJ
I thought I was going to read something along the lines of "If I had a brother who didn't like to follow the rules, he would look like Darrin"
Had a thought after reading the link. What if I had been there? What would I have done? What are the possible outcomes?
First, what would I have done? To answer that I think back to what I have done in the past. When I am at a cave system, I don't ask others their cert level. So unless I see something that draws my attention, I pretty much keep to myself. Now, I like to think I would have at least broached the subject of his son. That would have jumped out at me.
So that is where it gets intesting to me. To my knowledge, they broke no law by going in (okay... Maybe the law of good common sense). So lets assume I approach the father and discover the truth. I know I would highly encourage them not to make the dive.
At this point, the father either takes to heart the advice and calls it a day or blows me off.
My hunch.... They would have still entered. I simply say that because human nature is to not like to have people tell us what to do.
Now what are my options? Put my life in jeopardy and follow them in the cave? Try to physically prevent them from entering? Ask who I should call if they die and leave them to their own choices?
Not questioning any of the choices.. Just chewing on the thought and curious what others option/experience have been.
Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk
I'm not so sure you can "legally" physically prevent someone from doing a dive like this...anybody know one way or the other for certain?
Your bring up some good comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by nthewater
There is no law requiring certification to dive,just the thought we can't get an airfill without a card,but the civil disobedient minded person would buy a compressor. But,you more likely wouldn't see someone without a c-card dive off a dive boat,and the owner/operator would make sure of that. We wouldn't expect any different,and it is expected.
When we go to the springs,especially at uncontrolled sites like Eagle's Nest, Little River etc,we see other people diving but rarely say anything about what is going on. Most of us are cautious to intervene when we see something suspicious,and with some past events,if we intervene with physical contact,then you become the criminal. Do we have a moral responsibility to try to intervene? Do we have an obligation to intervene to protect this sport? After the people died at School sink,there was comments made that it was known by someone that they knew what they were doing (eg diving beyond their level) and wasn't surprised that there was a fatality,but nobody ever said we tried to intervene and stop them.
What are somethings that people could do provide an intervention?
At places like Ginnie,easy call the security guard-I 've done it,not ashamed I have done it,and will do it again.
How about state parks? Rangers aren't always available,but smart phones with images of divers and license plates are.
Places mentioned previously that have no over sight are the hardest places-what would you do????
I guess I'm just old and tired - I no longer try to prevent untrained divers from going into the caves...
To those of you proposing we stop all divers from doing things we deem unwise, do you also call the highway patrol on every driver you see exceeding the speed limit? On the phone while driving? Driving after a drink? They're not just risking themselves.
I hate what deaths in caves do to access issues. I hate the thought of Big Brother more, though. Address the cave access issues, and leave people to their right to behave in a way that you think is stupid as long as it's not putting you in danger. I have had SEVERAL talks with divers about to do something I didn't think was smart. Sometimes those talks even worked. However, in the end, in the case of an adult, it is their right to do something I don't think is safe for them.
And please, don't use the "a stupid diver in the cave risks the lives of the rescuers." Seriously, our rescue teams are amazing people. They CHOOSE what dives to make to do those rescues, and I grant that they are intelligent enough to decide on what risks they're willing to take at any given time.
What gives us the right to decide that someone isn't able to make a dive (or a climb or a jump or use a butter knife) because we don't think they're doing it the safest way? Allow that logic, and next we have people who say because cave diving (or climbing rocks, etc) is dangerous sounding TO THEM, then WE shouldn't be allowed to do it. Or because I'm overweight, I shouldn't be allowed in a cave. Or any other of a number of reasons.
Where would our sport be without people who did things they weren't trained for?
It sucks when someone dies and it seems so preventable. But let's not kill a fly with a sledgehammer, and end up caving in the skull of the friend the fly is sitting on.
Does anyone here remember when Tyler Moon was charged with assault for pulling an openwater instructor and her openwater students out of a cave?
Exactly what I alluded to,but without naming names.Quote:
Originally Posted by kensuf
History shows very close to being outlawed,and it wasn't until some organization and rules were established before we saved it. Hence,if some people hadn't stepped forward,and probably got comments like,"you can't tell me what I can and can't do",then we would be doing sneak diving everywhere,under the threat of performing a crime.Quote:
Originally Posted by sskasser
I appreciate what you are saying Shirley.
The question I ask,do we have a moral responsibility to try and intervene in some form,or let them do what they want because it is their God-given right?
Using your analogy of drinking and driving. If I am somewhere and I see a friend trying to leave and they are obviously drunk,should I a) try to stop them b) get out of the way and let them go? Our media has defined that with public service ads,that say don't let friends drive drunk,and give you the tacit right to take their keys away.
This analogy has a poor match up to cave diving accidents,but in the same light,if I see someone that is about to perform a dive that they don't have training for,I will perform some action,if not to just inform them of the dangers. This is where I feel I have the moral responsibility,mainly because if they die,I can say I didn't just hide behind my tailgate and just ignore things.
I think the dry caving community does it the best. #1,they don't tell noncavers where are the sites #2 if someone is accessing a site and they aren't trained,they can join the grotto,and get mentored #3 have great landowner relations,because the landowner has reduced fear of liability because they always police the site.
From what I heard... (since this happened in 1997) - Tyler was charged with Simple Battery on Vernon Murchison and from what I heard the prosecutor said it a "waste of tax payers money" to even think of prosecuting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
True?
I can't recall if there was a fine levied,but it was ridiculous for him to be charged with this. It did propel Tyler into cave diving history,too bad people won't remember him as being one of these most active cave instructors in the 90s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
I think we're pretty much in agreement, Kelly. We have slightly different approaches, but the same goals. I appreciate all that you do and have done, and all of the experience that stands behind your words. I have a huge amount of respect not only for what you do, but for how you do it.
I get very antsy any time people start trying to legislate personal activities. Heck, I will even argue in favor of allowing men to choose to wear pants around their knees with their boxers showing. Why, because I put banning that in the same category as banning women from showing their faces (aka requiring hijabs). It's a dearly held personal opinion regarding personal choices in both cases. Who's opinion counts more?
I'll be the first to admit that I may overlean in the direction of personal freedom, because seeing the teetotter swing the other way scares the hell out of me.
And yes, absolutely, we, you and I, on a personal level, DO have a moral responsibility to educate and discuss the dangers with people every time the opportunity arises. I agree, 100%. Part of the battle we fight is that Darwin doesn't work fast enough to make the negative consequences seem real. In this case, these guys had done many dives without negative consequence, it seems. It's an uphill battle, but a worthy one. The cave (mountain/highway/butter knife) can try many times to kill you and fail. It only needs to succeed once to be a success. The diver, on the other hand, only gets to fail once.
Thank you for all you do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Kelly,
The Gilchrist County Judge reviewed the incident at the initial appearance and dismissed the charges with the statement "He (Tyler) did the equivalent of pushing someone out of the way of a moving train!." The complaint was filed by a female "Y" instructor that was subsequently stripped of her teaching credentials because of the incident.
I think every cave diver has an obligation to say something to prevent a what's likely to be a diving death. In the case of a CDS member diving a CDS owned site there probably is a duty to warn the trespasser. If you are a dive professional, at any level, covered by liability insurance you are probably obligated to say or do something.
I agree 100% with the statement, we really do have a duty (in my opinion) to try to stop people from doing stupid things, including driving too fast etc.
Not physically stop them of course, but to try to reason with them about possible consequences, if they aren't receptive, then you tried, that's all you can do.
I have yet to meet the arrogant idiot engaged in self-destructive behavior who responds with a "gee thanks, never occurred to me I might hurt myself" when intervened with. I try to take care of my family; I have a few close friends with whom we have mutual permission to call each other on our BS (since self-deception is difficult to detect in one's self); the stranger on a Hellbound train there's not much you can do for. I've hung on my deco stop in the Devil's Eye keeping an eye on a diver in a single tank who was futzing around with his computer in the cavern chamber below the Eye but before the crack that goes down to where the gold line starts now. I didn't know if he was cavern certified or what he was doing. I did not go down and scold him or give advice, just kept an eye out for trouble. If he'd gotten in to obvious difficulty I'd have rendered assistance; if he'd decided to proceed down in to the cave I don't know what I'd have done, probably hope he'd make it out alive. Maybe I'm a heartless sociopath, but I think my response is that of a reasonable man, but then maybe I'd get sued for seeing someone doing something stupid and not intervening; lawsuits are not always about reason.
Thanks,that is what I mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
I was hoping this thread could stretch out to how,and what others have done. There are a lot of people who aren't aware that grabbing an OW diver with a light in the cave at Ginnie,could result in assault charges. What can we do,and perhaps we all can learn from experiences of others.
Several years ago I saw two open water divers entering Devil's Ear -- they each had lights and were in the gallery beyond the daylight zone. The type lights they had suggested to me the divers were not cavern trained, POS lights...I grabbed one of the divers arms to look at his wristband to see his certification level. He moved away from me quickly and exited. I was unable to see his wristband.
The two divers were diving with GSO rental AL80's...I recorded the numbers & later that day reported the numbers to Connie LoRe at the office. She informed me that one diver reported the incident to her and further claimed I made him hit his head on the cave wall and was almost ready to file a complaint against me for battery. Connie calmed them down and sent them on their way.
What will I do next time considering he likelihood that no good deed goes unpunished?
Actually, I have had a couple of great experiences in this area. One time really stands out. I overheard a couple of guys talking about doing the Catfish to Manatee run one day and could tell at least was not certified for it. I struck up a conversation. It ended with them doing a fun OW dive and signing up for a cavern class. And yes, they did say "Thanks!" Actually, they've said it several times since then. It can happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychDiver
Just adding food for thought.
What do you do?
1. You are preparing to dive and see a father and son preparing to dive with some appropriate gear, but you have doubts that they are qualified to make the dive.
2. You are preparing to dive and see a guy all geared up and about to enter the water, but obviously drunk or impaired.
Why should there be a difference? Yet most of the folks I asked had no problem interceding for case #2, but not so much for case #1.
Now ask yourself if it makes any difference if you are diving on private property or public land.
There are no right answers here. Just introspection.
Please pardon any typos. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I am sure many of us have had this experience. I recall a couple of times at Ginnie and once at Peacock where divers were getting ready to dive and clearly were not prepared. Approaching divers on the surface getting ready to dive is a LOT easier than intervening when they are already in the water headed for glory...Quote:
Originally Posted by sskasser
Good stuff!!
Sometimes it is obvious, and sometimes it isn't. I remember one of my training dives at Ginnie Springs, when I was emerging from the depths on my way out the eye. When I entered the room where we had stashed our deco bottles, there was a guy standing in the middle of the room with a single tank and split fins. I was pretty sure he as not a certified cave diver. On the other hand, if I had seen the father and son preparing to enter Eagles Nest on Christmas day, would I have noticed anything that would have made me think of intervening? I doubt it.
In a situation like that, the time and place to act is between the dives, and that is tough. If I had information that the two were doing those dives, what would I do? I suspect that if I talked to them, they would blow me off. It has been suggested that the people to talk to are the family. Well, by all reports the father's fiancée thought they were great divers who put safety first. I suppose I could sit down with her and disabuse her of that notion, but what truly are the odds of success there?
It is all well and good to do the right thing and act, but in trying to do the right thing, we sometimes don't have a lot of options.
I had two insidents but the same. Both times I was exiting Devils Ear as ow water divers were entering. I just blocked thier way not touching them, they went right I went right, they went left I went left all time my light directly in thier eyes. The remains of my four tanks lasted longer then thier single 80 then they left. They bitched to security and was told to leave.
Goobermint has a saying, "See something, say something."
So say something. But don't play scuba police.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax
I agree,scuba police with physical effort is forbidden.
Ginnie is great because there is security on site.
What about Peacock? I was coming out of OG once,and encountered 2 OW divers with lights approx. 300ft back in the system. I met them on the surface and told them that is against park rules,and dangerous. I got told many things,least of which was mind my own business. I ceased my verbal comments,and took pictures of them and their license plates with my phone. I have never seen people pack up gear so fast,and leave.
Good job, but be careful! Some will get pushy and violent.
I have also hear, "Ask them for the name and phone number of their next of kin."
You could lie (if it is one) and tell them you are part of the body recovery team . . .
Always felt one thing that could have been added to "Deceptively Easy Way to Die",was the recovery divers taking dive gear of the deceased and stashing it in their trunk before law enforcement shows up. Amazing,people would be more outraged their gear would be stolen from them when dead and act as deterrent,versus just the stupidity of entering and overhead environment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax
I was getting in the devils system many years ago and ran head to head with three guys with snorkels and lift bags. One of the three had a light. My buddies and I showed them the way out. We were at peacock 1 the next day and met them In the peanut tunnel with 1 light and this time we escorted them to the exit. We took a lot of #### but Shellie backed up my buddy when they talked to her. She ask them to leave and took the plate #.
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I have talked several divers out of going in a cave in shabby OW gear. One was "teaching" his buddies how to cave dive. I suggested if he wanted to be an instructor that he should go to an institute. He actually did, and later became president of the NACD :-)
Sadly there was one hard head teaching his son to dive in the headpool at Peacock. The poor kid was only about 11, with no exposure protection, and the tank was way to big for him. Later that day, I recovered the father from the Well tunnel.
If you see someone going into Devil's or Peacock that is obviously not trained, simply report them. GSO is really quick to enforce their rules, and also the Rangers at the parks.
Good comments Forrest.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
State parks have been forced to release much of their part time help,so in the off season there is less visibility,and budget cuts will assure that during the year too. This makes it very tempting to break the rules because the park management isn't in constant supervision.But,rangers can ask people to stop,but have no enforcement capacity (no guns,cuffs etc),so they have to call DEP law enforcement,which could be 50+ miles away,and not able to respond quickly. The good news is most people don't know that,so saying I am going to call the Ranger can elicit the response you want.
If you run for congress under this platform,I would vote for you. A lot better than some of the legislation that is being handed us to better our lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by sskasser
Yea, that's the incident that came to mind when I posted my question.Quote:
Originally Posted by kensuf
Maybe we should start adding a BRP (Body Recovery Prevention) session to our workshops. Have an acted out session of a Cave Diver trying to talk a group of unqualified divers out of cave diving. This would be followed by a discussion of what worked and what didn't, other ideas etc. Maybe even someday where you could practice trying to talk a group out of diving above there limits. I think people would be more willing to act, better able to act having seen and processed the interaction. It would also help us understand the limits of what we can do.
Kelly,Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
The states budget eliminated DEP Law Enforcement and assigned/merged their duties into Fish & Wildlife, who were already over extended. As I stated in other posts the FF&W officers are hunters, sportsman and outdoorsman and many are divers and can spot something out of the ordinary. I'm thinking the Sheriff's role in enforcement may be increasing because of mutual aid agreements.
Every situation and site is going to follow certain rules. In the case of NSS-CDS properties when I was Program Director, I instructed all of the property managers to call the local Sherriff and have violators of our access policies charged with trespassing immediately. This could be sorted out by the NSS-CDS at a later date if the circumstances proved to be OK. The main focus of course was non-members accessing the sites, the secondary reasoning was to limit the accessability of non-certified divers also accessing the cave. This mainly works at Cow, and thru the guides programs at Mill Creek and School Sinks. Cathedral is too remote for reasonable oversight of this problem. One of the early policies for Cow stated that one member of a dive team had to be a member of the NSS-CDS. This lasted only long enough to discover that many non-members were tagging along and more than a few of them were not certified to dive in caverns or caves. The reality of the matter is that the property owner has the only legal means to prevent access to a cave by un-trained or non-certified divers. In the state parks, the ranger has no law enforcement responsibilities. If they observe a violation of the park rules, the guest is usually asked to leave. If that goes nowhere, then a wildlife officer, sheriffs deputy, and or state trooper is called in to handle the situation.
I agree with Joe completely, but some people you just can't reach.
Many years ago, in the mid 80's, my future wife, her friend, myself and Steve Irving were doing a series of dives at Little River. we arrived on sight and geared up, but noticed a lone individual drinking beer outside his vehicle. he approached us at one point and indicated he was going to dive the system. it was obvious he was not a trained cave diver, so we all attempted to discourage him and point out the dangers and the need for proper training, equipment and experience. he obviously was not listening to us, but there really was no more for us to do or say.
we finished our dive that day and the individual was still on sight, still drinking. we left and returned very early the next morning to find his vehicle there but no sign of him. assuming he was passed out in his car, we proceeded with dive. well, it was obvious he ignored our warnings, because we found him about 300 ft back in Little River, expired, with a single empty aluminum 80 on his back, and equipped as if he was going on a shallow reef dive in the Keys. Steve and I ended up doing the recovery of his body.
There will always be individuals that will do irrational things and no amount of talking can change that. that being said, I still think we need to be as proactive as possible in attempting to educate these types of individuals. even if it ends up in saving only one life, it's worth the effort.
I'm confused... doesn't the CDS in NSS-CDS stand for CAVE DIVING SECTION?
I thought it had been determined very adamantly that this was NOT a cave diving accident. Why say anything? :yawinkle:
OK, joking aside, I believe we as a community can exert more peer pressure on non certified divers than maybe we think we can. A "corporate culture" that stresses the importance of training and the consequences of a lack of that training will resonate if followed consistently.
Social pressure can do a lot of things look at littering and cigarette smoking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fno
The money shot.... The truth is many in the cave community don't give a #### and take people diving above their level of training all the time. In just the last year alone I know of quite a few instances of this, one I refused to loan a person gear so they could accompany a cave diver to just "look" in the cavern zone.... i have spoken to the particular cave diver a few times in the past, on dead ears, I'm just "too DIR".... which is a joke, go ask JJ if he thinks I am..LOL. The first time when I found he was taking a apprentice level diver with no tech training on full cave multi jump deco dives to gain experience. Oh, her BIG NAME apprentice instructor also had no problem with it either, he knew about it and I was a arsehole for saying anything to the apprentice diver, who won't talk to me to this day. It's worse because nothing bad happened so I was really wrong to say anything is how that mental gymnastics works,
Another I know of involved a prominent member of our cave diving community taking a person who was not Trimix trained on a dive in the nest. That was covered up by more prominent members of our community post haste and i was a arsehole for mentioning it... that's OK.
So, we can argue all freaking day about if this was a cave accident or not but at the end of the day the truth is far too many in our community take cave diving safety and what we teach/are taught as somehow being over the top, yet when somebody (or people) are dragged out of the cave dead we all stand and scream "they violated the rules!" when EVERY day many of us do the same and many more of us sit there quietly because we don't want to be the arsehole.
It shouldn't go unmentioned that the upstream entrance to Cow was discovered by two untrained OW divers. As I recall the story Lamar Hires challenged their presence in the basin and they went on to show him the opening which is the one in use now. Lamar went on to provide them cave training at his expense.
I read the entire thread and after reading it I am convinced of one thing, "Open Water lectures don't push the fact that divers should never dive above their training level". When I got my drivers license in Atlanta Ga. back in 1962, I was shown fatal accidents of untrained or foolish drivers. The vision stuck in my mind, and still does, that made me a more careful and aware driver.
My suggestion would be to have an experienced cave or technical diver show and do a demonstration of foolish diving decisions. After hearing all the BS we hear in our cavern classes of divers who have died due to bad decisions and diving above their training level, we start to get an understanding of the seriousness of overhead environment diving. Why can't the OW Instruction Lecture include an intro to that. We could possibly stop the stupid antidotes of untrained divers in overhead environments. A body bag being dragged through a cave toward the exit would indeed make an impression on a new scuba diver. A video like that along with our warning signs we put in the entrance of caves could possibly stop an untrained diver from entering. An example is Catfish Hotel. An OW Diver can swim to the cave entrance with no problem. After seeing a video of a body bag being dragged out of a cave, a lecture of diving over your training level, and seeing the Warning Sign in front of him, I feel he would take a second to reflect on what he was about to do.
This 5 minutes it would take to incorporate this with OW Lecture could save a life.
We push all through our cave instruction of diving over our level of training. OW divers think that a C Card gives them the right to dive anywhere other than diving over 60 ft. deep. Florida has many springs that have caves with easy access. We need to educate our new OW Divers of the danger of Overhead Environments.
Just my thoughts on the subject. I am sure it is full of holes but I am sick and tired of having to educate OW Divers about OH Environments at dive sites. After talking to them and showing them all the cave equipment and why we use it, they all thank me for the lesson.
Go ahead OW Instructors and tare this up.
well written Mr. Chairman ! Thank you.
je
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by sskasser
Shirley,
I don't know what comment "this" was intended to mean in the BoB K reply but I need to set the record straight about the Chairman's and my intent.
Most everyone can spot a speeder and call '911' with out any formal training whatsoever. Only a trained cave diver can spot and untrained diver and don't we have an obligation to use our training and expertise to warn of danger if not to the untrained diver but to some form of authority? Don't we have more of an obligation to the land owner or park a manager that we do a "rule breaker?" EN was opened as a result of cave divers policing themselves when it was privately owned for thirty years. I know that BECAUSE I WAS A PART OF THE DISCUSSION.
IUCRR divers are remarkable people supported by their wives and family who hate the thought of their going into harms way. IUCRR divers have had some difficulties that put them at risk during recoveries that have not been reported to the general public after a specific incident. Problems that happen without any regard to training such as free flows, DCS hits because of the additional workload, being wedged in restrictions, depth and gas management and the nausea associated with the taste of the decomposing deceased they are tethered to. NO recovery is ever easy or routine.
Semper Fi, you have my utmost respect.
/Ken
While I think the statement is well-written, the sentiment is kind, and the message meant to inspire people to action whenever possible, the fault of society isn't that we don't often act to do the right thing, but we seem to be unable to lie blame squarely on the shoulders of people who need to assume full responsibility for their actions.
"this" typically means "I Agree"Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Hill
I am an Air Force veteran, so can't claim the "Semper Fi". But I do claim freedom from government intruding into our lives. I think that we should be free to live, or die, based on our personal choices. I think that the results of that decision should not affect anyone else. I think we were a better country when most citizens believed this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobK
Bob,
I agree with you and feel the same way myself. Cave divers are perhaps the only people that have successfully regulated themselves and their dive sites. No one can spot an untrained diver better than a trained cave diver. As a community looking out for our sport we can remain free to participate in activities without the regulation you fear!
Perhaps ten years ago you could not get a cave diver to tell you where some dive sites were. Now they are now frequented by untrained divers and discussed on forums. Too many cases have been reported where victims family members said the deceased "learned to cave dive on the internet." The internet is a good thing however the byproduct of well intentioned cave divers sharing information to make the sport safer has opened up a can of worms. Information shared from formal training has allowed some to IGNORE the dangers taught in FORMAL TRAINING and when they die our community takes the hit.
Its my opinion that forty years ago training programs taught the world cave diving is safe and the dynamiting and gates on caves stopped. It is reasonable that cave divers once again become pro-active and deal with those who ignore the need for training before the bureaucracy does. If we don't do a reasonable job of policing or regulating ourselves, government regulations will do it for us and that is what you don't want and neither do I.
Lets all chip in & buy Russell a cool 'Rug' this year, so that he 'looks like the star' he really is ! :P {kind words for an old friend} :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Jack
Ken,Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Hill
Cave diving and the "rules" as well as training information is out on the Internet...as well as the warnings about proper training. The father in the current "rash of publicity" case was told to get proper training and disregarded the advise, unfortunately these people exist in our society. Now that the information is out on the Internet it isn't going to go away.
The biggest reason this issue is virtually non existent in tech & wreck diving is simple...access to dive boats is controlled by the Owner/Operator of the dive vessel, show Cert or don't dive. Whether by personal responsibility of the Op, the threat of liability of allowing an un-cert'd diver to dive, or simply not wanting to deal with the hassle if the proverbial SHTF. A sufficient portion of the caves do not require a boat to access, removing this barrier.
Some of the caves require proof of Cert before being allowed to dive (ie: Ginnie), or in some of the parks C-Cards must be left of the dash of a vehicle (ie: Peacock). The same threats to the property owners/managers help to create barriers to un-cert'd access.
The "problem" is in keeping the above individuals out of the cave systems that do not have these barriers (ie: EN, Little River). I understand your "See Something, Say Something" idea. I am not from cave country and very few people there know who I am and I would understand and not object to showing anyone my C-Card, however likewise, I know very few people there and where would you propose I begin or end in asking others? Now, I would certainly be curious about a 15yo at a site such as EN and I'm certainly not shy enough to not ask a question or two in that situation, but lets be honest here...this was probably a very rare scenario.
The cave diving community may be good at self policing, but that is the crux of the issue, there is no such thing as "SCUBA or Cave police", so;
1)Who would I report the above situation to?
2)What am I to do once it has been reported? Am I to become their "safety" diver if they disregard me? (This also then puts me at risk)
3)Furthermore, what would be the penalty...besides the obvious one that we are trying to avoid?
4)I am a foreigner, putting myself in a situation that may become confrontational and lead to the authorities attending may get me expelled from the country, this WILL absolutely affect my career, who will help me in this situation?
You appear to be the spokesperson for the IUCRR, that provides you with contact and ability to open discussions with authority personnel, perhaps you could seek their input on this matter.
Poachers have their hunting/fishing gear confiscated when they are caught, perhaps Florida needs a similar penalty for diving without proper certification on state property? If the authorities need justification for this type of penalty, this is more life threatening than poaching is...so it is for the perpetrators own safety. However this means involving the government, I agree that I prefer not to have government intrusion. Perhaps going to them and requesting this will show them that our self governance approves of this measure. The diving associations lack the authority to do this, and they offer this as an alternative to having to govern an activity they don't know enough about to govern. I know, slippery slope...
I realize I have more questions than answers, however I think you, the IUCRR, & the agencies perhaps need to answer some of these, and make some proposals as opposed to asking the individuals to fix something we lack the authority, control, or ability to do.
Bentley
Bentley,
I am watching this closely and have learned from the efforts to open Madison, Jackson Blue, Eagles Nest and dealing with Law Enforcement at many site where fatalities occurred what law enforcement is capable of and what we are capable of. The do not have the resources or people to patrol the dive sites nor do they have the time to wait until divers surface to see if they are trained.
You touch on what the IUCRR and agencies can do and I can assure you the response will be based on more training at the cave level, recommendations to the OW levels and proposals will be based on what the cave diving community will do to make the sport safer.
However when tales of untrained people that are cave diving appear as internet chat both before and after their fatality something is wrong! When the personal representative of the estate of an untrained victim sues the CDS, an Instructor, and dive shop something is wrong. Its time to be proactive.
See something - Say Something means exactly that. If you see someone obviously untrained say something. I they are trained all the better, if they're not and listen and learn that's a start. If they don't listen and dive you will have at least tried and the info you learn may help if there is a recovery effort. Maybe I'm naïve but I don't see any cave diver an missing opportunity to educate someone when by doing so they promote our sport and protect it.
Hey Ken,
I understand that LEO's don't have the time and/or manpower to await divers to check cred's, and I don't expect them to...they have better things to do.
I understand and do try and try to "educate" uninformed divers to seek appropriate training, but like I asked, who would I report an incident or known case of un-cert'd divers diving caves? I honestly don't know who to report it to. At places like Ginnie, it's obvious, but what about Little River?
Somebody posted something about another minor diving at P1 & OG today...case in point they said they were going to report it but didn't get the fathers name. If there is no Ranger on duty, who or where would one report it? I would, but where and to whom?
Return the favor Ken, the IUCRR should sue the estate for expenses of any recoveries it performs for Un-Certified divers in caves. I understand that this sounds cold hearted, but it makes a statement. I'm a truck driver, and a family sued a friend of mine who their family member used to hit head on to commit suicide. I told him to stand up for himself and counter-sue, the family was advised wisely by their attorney that they we going to lose badly if he proceeded and they immediately dropped their suit.
If there are no repercussions, besides the obvious perishing, there is nothing to stop this from continuing by the segment of society that thinks the rules don't apply to them, because there aren't any consequences. These people don't think dying is one, because they don't plan to die...but if they were going to lose their gear if someone reports them they may reconsider. In order for there to be consequences for their actions, we need to create them. Without creating meaningful consequences, quite frankly we are enabling them and it probably won't stop. This is the only way to get through to this mindset segment of society...
Edited to add...
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the IUCRR should go suing every family of divers that it does recoveries of. I'm saying that if the families of the victims were informed that their loved ones disregarded warning signs, training that says not to enter overheads, etc. and they willingly did anyhow that it is not the fault of the NACD, NSS-CDS, IANTD, TDI, GUE, etc. and their instructors, as the proper training is available. Their loved ones violated every training agencies "rules" and if they choose to file suit when the fault is clear, that the IUCRR will protect its fellow agencies and file suit for recovery expenses. If the family accepts the violators consequences, then it is a volunteer service provided at no cost.
Sorry but this is like stopping drivers to drive their cars with 200km/h on the streets.
There will be always some that will do it regardless of speed cameras, police and other drivers.. Some are punished, some dies, some kill others too, some goes away unharmed....
There is no difference in diving or cave diving, whatever is done will not stop things to happen.
The thing that community should do, is to lobby the reasons why things happened so that peoples in general will (some) understand that they don't know what they don't know and get adequate training before making the step.
My 2 cents.
how many mountains have been closed due to skier deaths? how many cliffs have been closed due to rock climber deaths?
this list could go on ad nauseam...
as has been stated over and over ,people are gonna do stupid things. the public needs to be reminded of this fact and asked this question-" would you like to be checked for proper credentials at the end of your driveway every morning as you head to work just because there are others who drive unlicensed and uninsured?"