Foot Heavy fin suggestions

I always seem to be a bit foot heavy, and assumed, until recently, that the cause was 100% operator error. I could always find trim if I concentrated on the process, but seemed to drop feet or knees when otherwise occupied.

But.......

I just started diving a drysuit, and now it's VERY noticeable that I'm heavy in the feet. I tried a different set of fins, and it seemed to make a difference, but they actually seemed too light, even so, it was almost easier to manage too light than too heavy.

I'd like to try to find fins that are like the third bowl of porridge (just right). I currently dive XL Dive Rite fins (current production model) which fit my wetsuit boots, and my drysuit. What's the next step down on weight for tech fins, and/or what would you recommend that I try next?

You might want to try wearing a thicker set of boots.

My recommendation is to forget about changing anything if you just started diving dry. I can still remember the fits I went through (I was also adding a lot of other gear/stages.) Then things started to settle down. Now, I don't know where all that trouble went? (Obvious acclimation - practice, experience and technique.) I did eventually change from Jets to DR XLs, but at that point it was a minor adjustment and I'm not sure it would have helped back in the beginning.

Anyway, my suggestion is to learn the dry suit and have a stable base to make changes.

I like OMS slipstreams. They are light, but still negative. I was diving the OMS, then switched to Dive Rite's, then went back to OMS. Partly I preferred the wider fin, but I found the trim better with OMS. I also pay attention to the air in the drysuit and keep it in the legs/feet. It was side mount that made me feet heavy; in back mount I just hitched the tanks a bit higher.

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Just take your heavy fins to a bandsaw. Start cutting off the tip, one inch at a time. Stop when they feel better, just don't cut into the foot pocket.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

just don't cut into the foot pocket.

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... especially when you're wearing them.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

... especially when you're wearing them.

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...and don't use a chainsaw.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Just take your heavy fins to a bandsaw. Start cutting off the tip, one inch at a time. Stop when they feel better, just don't cut into the foot pocket.

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too late!

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

... especially when you're wearing them.

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also too late!

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Originally Posted by MORGAN

...and don't use a chainsaw.

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honestly folks, I'm going to need faster responses!

Same problem here. Hollis F1's my all-time favorite = comfortable fin for BM but too damn heavy in SM. SlipStreams and DiveRites seem light enough but dont' fit my feet nearly as well. I emailed Nick Hollis and begged him to make the F1's in a lighter compound - he said they are "considering" it. Maybe if he hears from enough people they'll do it - I'd buy a pair in a second if they would only make it!

I like Hollis the best, but agree the F1s are too heavy.

Agree with the SlipStreams (my preference) & Diverites, both with rubber heel straps, not stainless steel. Check your DS leg pockets. Anything heavy there works against you. Good time to check positions for backplate (if using one), wings, harness & tanks (if applicable). Try loosening up your crotch strap, too, to help shift weight forward. It all counts.

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Originally Posted by divindoc

Same problem here. Hollis F1's my all-time favorite = comfortable fin for BM but too damn heavy in SM. SlipStreams and DiveRites seem light enough but dont' fit my feet nearly as well. I emailed Nick Hollis and begged him to make the F1's in a lighter compound - he said they are "considering" it. Maybe if he hears from enough people they'll do it - I'd buy a pair in a second if they would only make it!

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What about the Hollis F2s? I've never tried them and like my Slipstreams(and am glad to have acquired a back-up pair), but I read that the F2s are fairly neutral.

You can probably fit a pair of those inflatables that kids wear on their arms over your feet. Inflate as needed!! Seriously, everyone is foot heavy until they train themselves to keep their legs and knees up off the bottom. Part of that is not trying to look upwards all the time. Look down and your legs will move up.

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Originally Posted by fno

... Seriously, everyone is foot heavy until they train themselves to keep their legs and knees up off the bottom. ...

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Yes, ... and No. Being in *weight* trim does make a big difference in how much effort is required to remain horizontal.

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Originally Posted by rongoodman

What about the Hollis F2s? I've never tried them and like my Slipstreams(and am glad to have acquired a back-up pair), but I read that the F2s are fairly neutral.

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Tried 'em at Madison. Without a doubt the most worthless fins for caves that I have ever tried. Zero propulsion. OTOH, they are light!

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Just take your heavy fins to a bandsaw. Start cutting off the tip, one inch at a time. Stop when they feel better, just don't cut into the foot pocket.

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I actually did that. They got too short to be of much use before they got "better."

skip

I started off with Jets years ago. They were way too heavy and I went with Dive Rites. I had issues with the new fins tearing and breaking and as much as I dive I couldn't have fins I couldn't rely on. I started searching and found SEAC fins. I have been diving the SEAC GP100s 4x4 for a year now and really like them a lot. They are a little heavier than DR fins, just as stiff, and a similar shape. After diving that style fin I just can't go back to the wider fins like the Jets of Slipstreams.

For full disclosure I am a SEAC dealer. I don't use all SEAC gear though. I only use SEAC gear that I like and has proven itself to be high quality and durable and works for the diving I do.

Another idea: if you're diving backmount, try a "donut"-style BC to get more lift along your backside. When I dive, my legs also tend to drag. They're negative to begin with, and I have to dive a heavy pair of fins-- XL Turtles-- because I need the wide foot pocket. A couple of years ago, by way of improving trim, I switched from a standard wing to an Evolve at Danny Riordan's suggestion. While that wasn't a cheap fix, I haven't regretted it. One word of caution, though. Some people have told me that "donut" wings aren't good for multi-stage diving. According to these divers, "donut" wings make it difficult to selectively inflate one side of a wing to compensate for the uneven weighting created by staging. Since I've never dived more than one stage-- and that quite infrequently-- I wouldn't know. I've also heard that some of the newer designs for donut wings try to compensate for this with restrictions in the bladders -- but, again, I wouldn't know.

I concur on the F2s; very light but very little propulsion. I took mine to Mexico for both salt and cave and they're a good travel fin but don't try to fight flow with them.

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Originally Posted by phil_p

...One word of caution, though. Some people have told me that "donut" wings aren't good for multi-stage diving. According to these divers, "donut" wings make it difficult to selectively inflate one side of a wing to compensate for the uneven weighting created by staging. Since I've never dived more than one stage-- and that quite infrequently-- I wouldn't know. ...

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My experience would say that it isn't a given. I have always dove an Oxycheq donut BM and it is an older wing. After several training dives, I whined about my 'Nemo like' trim/balance with multiple stages and my instructor said, "Why don't you just 'roll the bubble' to counter?" Since that point, I've never had another problem even on Great Lake trimix dives where I have bottom gas stage plus a couple of deco bottles with me the whole dive.

A very popular fin quite a few years ago was Dacor Turboflex,which can be had on Ebay. They had the advantage of being short like a Jet fin,but rigid like a power fin,but very,very light weight.

I use the following when diving wet. They are lighter then DR fins but seem just as stiff. Ive had mine for about 1yr and seem to hold up well.


http://www.typhoon-int.co.uk/product...hurricane_fin/

I tried a few different fins, and picked up a pair of Slipstreams. They seem pretty close to the DR, perhaps a little heavier in air, but a little more floaty in the water. In any event, they helped. I also felt like my frog kick improved, as it seemed easier to hold them together before resetting, I felt like I was always resetting the DR's too soon. The DR's seemed to cramp me regularly too. No cramps with the OMS, but that may have been coincidence.

While the fins helped, they weren't 100% of my problem. I'm dropping my knees, especially when I'm going into current. Any tips on keeping my knees up?

Well I just posted this in another thread however it seems more relevant here. I have found that it applies for both BM & SM.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet, which I believe is the most important, is the position of the SM rig on the persons body. Most people that are in a foot heavy position tend to have the SM rig too high on their body. The top of the wing is up on the back of their neck and I have even seen it touching their head. This is far too high in my experience. The top of our wings are a few inches below our shoulders. This puts the lift lower (along with pinching down the top of the wing so it holds less gas up top) and makes it easier to trim out the rig to the individual. When I work with people on their SM set up the first thing I do is get their rig trimmed out without cylinders. Then we work on getting the cylinders trimmed with their rig. The top of my valves are a good ways lower from my armpits which gives me plenty of room to move or even cross my arms without the valves or the cylinders getting in the way.

Most of the time people have the shoulder straps too tight and the crotch strap too loose. The shoulder straps determine where the rig sits on the body and the crotch strap keeps it secure against the body and in the correct position. I like to have a bit of a "V" on my waist belt from the crotch strap pulling it down. Once the rig is set on the body in the right place then the shoulder D-rings usually need to be adjusted down as well to be in the right position.

I hope that helps for anyone that is interested.

BTW Dr. X and I both still dive Jets. Many people find that they make them foot heavy however the way we have our rigs set up we are trimmed with the Jets regardless of diving dry or wet.

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Originally Posted by Bobby

Well I just posted this in another thread however it seems more relevant here. I have found that it applies for both BM & SM.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet, which I believe is the most important, is the position of the SM rig on the persons body. Most people that are in a foot heavy position tend to have the SM rig too high on their body. The top of the wing is up on the back of their neck and I have even seen it touching their head. This is far too high in my experience. The top of our wings are a few inches below our shoulders. This puts the lift lower (along with pinching down the top of the wing so it holds less gas up top) and makes it easier to trim out the rig to the individual. When I work with people on their SM set up the first thing I do is get their rig trimmed out without cylinders. Then we work on getting the cylinders trimmed with their rig. The top of my valves are a good ways lower from my armpits which gives me plenty of room to move or even cross my arms without the valves or the cylinders getting in the way.

Most of the time people have the shoulder straps too tight and the crotch strap too loose. The shoulder straps determine where the rig sits on the body and the crotch strap keeps it secure against the body and in the correct position. I like to have a bit of a "V" on my waist belt from the crotch strap pulling it down. Once the rig is set on the body in the right place then the shoulder D-rings usually need to be adjusted down as well to be in the right position.

I hope that helps for anyone that is interested.

BTW Dr. X and I both still dive Jets. Many people find that they make them foot heavy however the way we have our rigs set up we are trimmed with the Jets regardless of diving dry or wet.

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I think I'm squared-away on my straps, but I do wear my wing as high as I can get it. I'll try lowering it and see if helps. Thanks.

I've been diving jets SM which work fine for me diving dry as long as I keep some air in my feet. My problem comes when I have to do a duck-under -- I'm fine going down, but coming up the other side I have to drop my feet, and then I'm in an uncontrolled pitch-up with the bubble leaving my feet and going to my shoulders and the only way out is to kick with my feet in the silt. I know there has to be a technique way around this but the only thing I can think of is to get a lighter fin, then dump my drysuit air when doing a duck-under and just using wing air for buoyancy. Any tips would be welcome, but I suspect this is a practice issue since none of the experienced SM buddies I dive with has come up with a magic bullet.

Most of the suggestions here are hard to come by -- Slipstreams are discontinued -- there are some listed at Edd's but not in my size. Did find a pair of Dacor Turboflex on ebay for $17 so for that price I'll give 'em a try (probably have to switch out the rubber heel straps but I'm sure I've got some springs in the misc. bag somewhere).

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Originally Posted by PsychDiver

Most of the suggestions here are hard to come by -- Slipstreams are discontinued -- there are some listed at Edd's but not in my size. Did find a pair of Dacor Turboflex on ebay for $17 so for that price I'll give 'em a try (probably have to switch out the rubber heel straps but I'm sure I've got some springs in the misc. bag somewhere).

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I think I saw some XL Slipstreams on Ebay earlier today. You may also want to call Edd's. Sometimes the stock that's listed on the site isn't 100% accurate.

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Originally Posted by PsychDiver

I've been diving jets SM which work fine for me diving dry as long as I keep some air in my feet. My problem comes when I have to do a duck-under -- I'm fine going down, but coming up the other side I have to drop my feet, and then I'm in an uncontrolled pitch-up with the bubble leaving my feet and going to my shoulders and the only way out is to kick with my feet in the silt. I know there has to be a technique way around this but the only thing I can think of is to get a lighter fin, then dump my drysuit air when doing a duck-under and just using wing air for buoyancy. Any tips would be welcome, but I suspect this is a practice issue since none of the experienced SM buddies I dive with has come up with a magic bullet.

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You shouldn't be relying on any gas bubble to keep you trim, even a gas bubble in your wing, IMO. But I've had 3 wing failures. Had I relied on my wing for trim I would have been swimming out with my feet in the silt too and blowing out the cave. That didn't happen though because I'm trimmed out with an empty wing. You just need to get your rig trimmed out and there really isn't a magic bullet. Everyone's physique is different so everyone will trim out differently. There are people who are also adamantly against using trim weights. How many are neutrally buoyant with empty cylinders? I know I'm not. I have 4 lbs of trim weight, and this time of year, since I wear an extra layer of undergarments (not for the dive but rather the surface interval!) I have another 4 lbs mid back. Also, eventually you will be able to trim out no matter what fins you wear. I swapped fins with a student a couple months ago. He had the heavy Jets or F1s. I expected to have my feet drop but they didn't. Similar to what's been posted in another thread about being able to trim out in any cylinder after you've built up some experience. It just happens.

Rob brings up an important point that I have found a good number of people have not considered. For those that have considered it there are generally two schools of thought. The first is to weight yourself for 99% of the time you are diving. IE to not be over weighted during the 99% of the time the dive goes fine and if a situation comes up where it is required to go into the last third of our gas then we can fin down or push off the ceiling. The second approach is to be weighted for when everything goes wrong and we are in the last third of our gas so we are not fighting buoyancy issues when we have other problems as well.

My opinion is to go with option two. I would rather have my weighting so I don't have to fight positive buoyancy when things are already bad. To me it is a more conservative because that extra weight will require a bit more gas in the wing which adds a bit more drag at the beginning of the dive making it easier on the way out when we have breathed down our gas and have less gas in the wing. This is how we approach it.

Now this brings up weighting in the team. Dr. X and I want to be able to use whichever cylinders for either one of us however I am very negative in the water. With LP Fabers I don't need any weight even with the cylinders down to 200 psi. I have a picture from when I breathed down a set of 95's just to see if I could stay down. They were floating like AL cylinders however I could maintain 5, 10, & 20 foot stops in trim. Dr. X needs 4 pounds on her rig to do the same with the same cylinders. Even Faber HP 100's make a considerable difference for how much gas I have to put in my wing to stay neutral, a set of 104's I have to use my dry suit with my wing to stay neutral when they are full. So our solution is to add the 4 lbs. to her rig so either of us can dive all of the cylinders we own which are all LP Fabers and AL 80's.

There is also a considerable difference for me in buoyancy between my neoprene and trilam DS's. The neoprene is compressed and warm so I don't need much for thermals and during the summer I don't use any thermals unless I am doing something over 3 hours. With the trilam because I am cold blooded I wear heavy thermals which make me more buoyant so I find that I need to have considerably more air in my wing with the neoprene compared to the trilam. Since I carry zero weight and have the lightest steel cylinders available there is nothing I can do other than add more air to the wing.

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Originally Posted by PsychDiver

I've been diving jets SM which work fine for me diving dry as long as I keep some air in my feet. My problem comes when I have to do a duck-under -- I'm fine going down, but coming up the other side I have to drop my feet, and then I'm in an uncontrolled pitch-up with the bubble leaving my feet and going to my shoulders and the only way out is to kick with my feet in the silt. I know there has to be a technique way around this but the only thing I can think of is to get a lighter fin, then dump my drysuit air when doing a duck-under and just using wing air for buoyancy. Any tips would be welcome, but I suspect this is a practice issue since none of the experienced SM buddies I dive with has come up with a magic bullet.

Most of the suggestions here are hard to come by -- Slipstreams are discontinued -- there are some listed at Edd's but not in my size. Did find a pair of Dacor Turboflex on ebay for $17 so for that price I'll give 'em a try (probably have to switch out the rubber heel straps but I'm sure I've got some springs in the misc. bag somewhere).

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The uncontrolled feet down after the duck under is I believe due to old open water habit - when swimming along and reef or wreck blocks your path, you simply go a bit head up (feet down) and go over it. Next time, give a conscious effort to duck your head down, raise your feet just a tad and use your ass to raise you over the other side. You can also practice this anywhere, u/w that is, by simply raising your ass end. even stationary. even if your knees tend to come down a bit it won't be enough for them to touch. when you ascend ass-first to your desired distance off the bottom, resume normal profile. I may be off-base and this "technique" may be a band-aid for some other buoyancy issue I have unbeknownst to me. I'm sure others will jump in with comments - no instructor has told me to do this; I sort of discovered it on my own back in the day of wreck diving to get me up off the silty floors in a hurry with no hands or feet motion and no addition or subtraction of gas to wing or drysuit.


skip

Some thoughts about the trim issues, too heavy feet is a trim issue if anything.
When starting to dive with the dry suit, one must remember that it takes many dives to get use to it and much more to master it.
Therefore, If your suit is not vacuum there is always at least little air movement inside the suit, imho the biggest thing to have good trim with dry suit is that one must be able to regulate where the air is.
As somebody earlier said, get married with your suit before changing your other gear.

-j