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Minimum Certification Level : Open Water
Dive Site : Buford
Date : 1-4-2013
This guy even mentions the death at Eagles Nest as a bad example. Good to see people have learned from the stupidity of others... The cycle continues.
Hopefully he has good liability insurance.
Anyone here that actually has the training and certifications want to join them?
http://www.meetup.com/Narcosis-Anony...nts/154671822/
I especially like the guy recommending 18/45. Apparently, he never learned about best mix.
Also, I sent him requesting he remove the text he stole from caveatlas.com - http://www.caveatlas.com/systems/system.asp?ID=10&co=US (since it is a copyright violation).
I think this picture says it all
http://photos1.meetupstatic.com/phot...217994512.jpeg
Have fun getting bent there and hauled out. Might as well bury em in the mud
Sounds like a bunch of Charlie sheen winning going to happen there
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Pickel
Interesting Walter…. I checked out the link. It indicates you are attending?
< - - - - Totally lacking in knowledge of Buford . . .
This looks like (from the drawing) a "hole" dive, in the way that the New Mexico Blue Hole has a large pool and the cave begins at the bottom.
If that is true, then isn't the hole an open water dive? If you have no overhead, then it is open, right? Just a deep hole?
YEP! I signed up I could comment on the meetup. I'm seriously thinking of heading out there and meet them. However, once they have made the trip, they are going to dive anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by diveconjeff
Here is what I posted:
andQuote:
Brandon, would you mind removing the information you took from CaveAtlas.com and TampaDiving.com. I have a pretty clear copyright notice on my site.
Least you could have done is given me some attribution. I particularly like where "you" mention Jitka and Jakob. How long have you known them? I have never heard them mention you.
Quote:
For those of you that are considering diving at Buford and have not progressed beyond Open Water certification I would HIGHLY recommend you not do so.
Buford is a deceptively easy dive (the same thought the divers that died at Eagle's Nest on Christmas had).
PADI Open Water depth limitation is 18m/60ft -- Buford has a max depth of 167'. If you "fall" straight down beneath the "entrance" you will be over 80'. The floor of the main room slopes from 80' - 125'.
I personally feel that Buford is NOT a place for Open Water Divers...nor for anyone not having Cavern certification. It is not comparable to Devil's Den or Blue Grotto in my opinion -- depth, accessibility to aid (DCS, broken ankle, snake bites, getting lost), etc.
Honestly, I feel that bringing an Open Water diver here is irresponsible at least.
I was part of the team that explored and installed a new grate at Santa Rosa Blue Hole back on September. This is NOTHING like Buford.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax
To me, this is yet another example of too far too fast. The organizers state that the certification level required is Open Water. PADI Open Water depth limitation is 18m/60ft -- Buford has a max depth of 167'.
If you "fall" straight down beneath the "entrance" you will be over 80. The floor of the main room slopes from 80 - 125. I agree with Joe that this is not a place for Open Water Divers...nor for anyone not having Cavern certification. It is not comparable to Devil's Den or Blue Grotto in my opinion -- depth, accessibility to aid (DCS, broken ankle, getting lost), etc. Honestly, I feel that bringing an "open water" diver here is irresponsible at least.
What if they "miss" Buford and drop into Little Gator Siphon?
Thanks!
Agreed, its not safe without a cavern cert. I went the first time a couple of years ago after my cavern cert and hit 130ft very quickly. The clarity of the water and the enormous size of the room really almost gives a false sense of security and depth. You don't feel as deep as you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Pickel
What's going to happen is a group of these idiots is going to stir the crap out of the pond and push a ton of debris down the opening and obliterate day light for the divers inside, and then that's all she wrote.
I was just there a few weeks back with an open water buddy who I've dove with enough to know he is a safe diver-he just has no interest in caves, except he dives Buford from time to time and helped us find it.
At one point I was up to my neck in mud, and the mud was sucking parts off of my camera rig! The water was greenish that day as well. Quite a hike, not sure it would be fun with more than 3 people there at once.
http://proxypixels.zenfolio.com/img/...88427134-3.jpg
I spoke to the organizer today. He it's in cave training with Johnny Richards.
He was a pleasure to talk to and i feel confident that I got the safety message across. He said that all but one of the divers are at a minimum Cavern certified (1 is GUE Cave since 1999).
The next time they have a trip to Buford the will list the trip with a minimum certification of cavern.
Good job Walter! Maybe you saved someone.
Well done Walt.
Beside the nasty trekk to the site, it looks like a great site....but dangerous if there's an issue
Thanks Walter.
Actually, it is deceptively difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Pickel
I know people have been debating this, but the way to determine which is right is to remove the adjective. For example, "I have a car" is correct, and adding an adjective to make "I have a red car" doesn't change it, it just gives a little more information. "Buford is a difficult dive" is correct, and "Buford is a deceptively difficult dive" just adds the fact that it isn't readily apparent how difficult it is.
Now back to your regularly scheduled debate. And thank you for educating those folks.
I was hesitant to post here, but as I am not one to hide behind a keyboard or remain silent.
I was the "idiot" stuck in the mud in the picture previously posted. Picking apart a fun day from one picture where three friends went for a walk in the swamp with scuba gear on is pretty easy to do. But for me that was one of the greatest dive days I have ever had. I wasn't even waist deep, but fell to my knees which made the picture that much better. It's not always the dive but the adventure getting there. It won't likely matter to some, but everyone that day was certified at the Master Diver level or better, none of us were right out of open water class. Three MD's and an Intro Cave diver to be exact.
I would like to take a moment to thank Walter for his phone call. When I reposted the information to Buford Sink today I was unaware that it had come directly from his website. I had posted some information that was forwarded to me as a description of the dive several months back. I took the information down immediatly at his request. I also gained some respect for him for the actions he took today. He saw something he didn't agree with, and instead of commenting on a forum he took the time to have an intelligent conversation and I thank him sincerely for his valued input.
I see where it was listed as an open water dive. This was incorrect and I see the mistake that was made in its posting. I am by no means any sort of expert and consider myself new to the diving community. I myself have been out to this site at least 5 different days for diving. We have been out there several time and called the dive due to either the conditions of the path on the walk in or dark water. There was mention of the advanced level of this dive all throughout the page. There was numerous mention to diving within your limits. I believe this dive can be done at three levels, advanced open water, cavern and cave. I'm sure we could debate this from all sides and never come to an agreement.
Last time I was out there this was a hole in the ground that went straight down to about 100.' To me this sounds like an advanced open water dive similar to Hudson Grotto or maybe at a stretch Blue Springs State Park. Both of which can be dive the day after your first open water class. Its not as restricted as something like Paradise Springs which to me, is more of a cavern dive than Buford, but open to open water divers. The thing that makes Buford challenging is its remote location and lack of any sort of facilities. The dive itself once at the pool, is pretty straight forward. I've been out spearfishing in 200' of water, that doesn't mean that I am going all the way to the bottom. As stated several time there is plenty to see above 60'
I understand that by commenting on here I will likely open myself up to several different opinions that will likely be expressed to me or at me, but I'm ready for that.
What draws me back to somewhere like Buford is that every time I get the chance to dive there I always get that feeling that I'm the only one who has ever dove here before. I'm fairly good, not always perfect, about diving within my limits. As I have heard from several sources there are no scuba police waiting at 60' 130' or at that cave sign pointing you to go back. Its up to each of us to make sure that we stay within the limits of our own training and experience.
Once again, thank you for the phone call Walter. I hope we have the chance to dive together someday. I'll keep in touch. Instead of mocking and belittling, you came across friendly and informative.
If anyone else is serious about joining us tomorrow, I'd love to meet you, I'm always willing to make new dive buddies. I'll be there about 9:15 or so.
I am pleased to see that you are open to more learning. However, I feel I must point out that a Master Diver card is worthless in the overhead. All it means is the diver has made fifty open water dives. (I consider someone with fifty dives a new diver.)
Surviving several overhead dives without training doesn't mean you'll survive the next one - please get trained. (We cave divers aren't always jerks; we're just adamant about training!)
Brandon, be safe and have fun!
Buford is the dive that really made me want to receive training for cave diving. Maybe peering off into the darkness at Catfish hotel, realizing that it connects over into manatee was a close second. I did go and get my cavern certification, now I'm doing my best to get a few dives in in doubles before I go back and take intro. Buford exceeds the limits of a cavern diving certification down toward the bottom.
I agree 100% about getting training before diving in overhead, but my opinion is that Buford is not an overhead enviorment in the upper section. The deep section should be off limits to those without the proper training, not just overhead, but deep diving training/trimix as well.
If you look, you will see my comments on the meetup page that stated I planned on diving N32, and staying above the 100' range. To me this stills seems like open water.
If Buford had a boardwalk, showers and a parking lot, would this still be as advanced of a dive as everyone makes it out to be? If at that 100' depth I still had direct access to the surface is this a cave or cavern dive? Or like someone else mentioned, its it a dive in a deep hole? Assuming that its done within NDL.
I understand that i might be taking an unpopular opinion here. Call it a cave, get cave training is the easy answer to my question. I'm here to learn, so that I can become a better diver, and continue to do something that I really enjoy. Rest assured I have already expressed my interest to my instructor to continue thru into after getting a bit more comfortable in a new gear configuration.
I am always interested in more training, same as I am always interested in a new experience.
I'm not trying to flame or troll.
Brandon, Thank you for coming here and expressing your side, that takes courage and I respect that. Please understand people are legitimally concerned for the safety of you and your group. It can be difficult to understand just how quickly things can turn sour without proper training and equipment. Unfortunately many people, including "experienced" divers have little opportunity to learn to recognize many of these dangers outside of taking that training. Please spend some time reading the accidents and incidents forum. There are far too many examples of divers with much more experience than a Master Diver listed there that learned this lesson the hard way.
Sent from behind the safety of my keyboard using Tapatalk 2
I do not imply for one second that the MD rating qualifies someone for the overhead environment. What I do state is that it shows an investment in training, and a willingness to learn. I'll be the first one to stand up and say that some of the "specialties" classes offered by the mainstream recreational scuba industry are kinda hokey and gimmicky. I know the classes that I took were an investment in learning the right way to do things. I took a buoyancy class, Night and limited vis, Nitrox, deep and rescue, to get that MD rating. While that certainly does not qualify for the overhead, that in my opinion puts me a few steps ahead of the average diver that dives on a vacation in the Keys once a year who has never advanced past the open water level. That combined with proper risk management, I think allows me to dive Buford safely based on my training and experience.
I'm not here just to defend my actions. I really do appreciate the input from everyone. I did not care for the fact that judgement was passed before all the details were known, but that seems to be the ways of the internet forums. I spoke with several people I know who are cave and tech divers, they told me that the cave/tech community is small, very quick to judge others, but if you can separate one or two off to the side, you can usually find someone willing to help.
I appreciate the advise, and most of the opinions posted here.
My biggest issue from the original post is that the meetup said for OW divers. I think you would have gotten much less crap had that not been part of the initial post.
I appreciate the gumption it takes to come on here and face the music. Props to you. I understand your thought stream on the level of training that you and your friends have show a desire to be better than the average fin dragger that most dive shops produce. I also agree with you that Blue Grotto and Paradise really are not as OW safe as people make them out to be. Remember access to ER services is also much easier at those sites.
On the other hand your post smells of what a friend of mine who is a technical instructor constantly says...."you don't know what you don't know". Sure you may be an above average diver, but just like me, you and your friends don't know how much you need to step up your game to be an overhead diver. I thought I was great after diving for 17 years at an advanced OW level, with many specialties and over 500 dives. Once I got into cavern class I realized I wasn't as good as I thought, and I was much more in a feet down trim than I realized.
What you may not think about is that the entrance is basically a chute dropping into the cavern zone. It's a natural pool that's not dove year round, so it's got tons of debris on the bottom. Now you advertise on meetup and 8 people want to dive. You have a train of people in a line to get into the opening all waiting on each other. None of these people have gone through the training to stress hrozontal trim in these environments and everybody's sitting waiting churning up the pool. Everybody enters the cavern zone and without knowing it, the light is obliterated by the debris. Is everybody in the group comfortable with that? Who knows, you just met them on the internet. Somebody freaks and bolts to the surface and has an emoblism or (insert medical condition here). How many people is it going to take to drag them out and get help?
It may never ever happen, but has everyone thought it out that far? Probably not.
I'm not trying to be the scuba police. Frankly as long as you and the people you're diving with aren't drawing your names on the wall or doing something else to ruin one of the dive sites I look forward to diving every year, I don't care if you go out there and get bent to the high heavens. I just think it's important to make sure you know the realities that could occur and the liability you may be in as the "organizer." The site shows you have lots of experience diving Buford and you're the organizer. Some dead guys wife will find that post and sue you in a heartbeat.
Overhead and technical divers need to be "thinking" divers. In my opinion that means thinking 3 of more worst case scenarios ahead of the game and being ready for them. Maybe the fact that you haven't thought of the worst case scenario should be an alert that more advanced training in the overhead will be a good idea.
Brandon, it takes a lot to stand up for yourself and defend yourself. For that, you continue to gain my respect (not sure if that is a good thing though).
I hope you guys have a great dive.
I'll let you know the next time we go stomping in the swamp or woods.
Brandon your opinion is interesting.
Can you define a "cavern" according to what you were taught by your cavern instructor?
There's the problem right there. The only detail that matters is that you're attempting a dive you're not trained for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon362
I'm a technical diver with ~400 dives under my belt. I've done every kind of saltwater diving there is to do, in every kind of conditions short of a named hurricane. I'm a trained cavern diver with perhaps a dozen systems under my belt. My regular dive buddy holds all the same cards, has over a thousand dives, and is a recreational scuba instructor.
Neither of us would dive at Buford unless we were with a cave or cavern diver that had experience diving that particular cavern.
You're putting your ego before your ability to think critically. On top of that, you haven't been trained to recognize, and certainly don't seem to appreciate the things that can go wrong in an overhead, and how supremely you will be screwed when it happens.
That's what it boils down to. Your ego can't handle smarty-pants cave divers who don't know you, or your skillz, telling you it's unwise to do something you've already safely done a dozen times. You're going to show them that they're wrong, and that you're better than the rules.
I challenge you to prove me wrong. I challenge you to scrape up $300 and go take a cavern class. I challenge you to dive within the limits of your training, and to apprentice under safe, qualified divers that will help you slowly and steadily become the best diver that you can be. I challenge you to take criticism without ego, and to make every dive a learning opportunity.
LOL, welcome to CDF BrandonQuote:
Originally Posted by Benderr
As far as I know he is cavern certified by the same instructor that I had all the way through full cave. I think its comments like this that keep people from posting here to educate themselves on cave diving ... No need to bash around hereQuote:
Originally Posted by Benderr
I didn't really take it as a bash at all. I took it as good advice.
"Neither of us would dive at Buford unless we were with a cave or cavern diver that had experience diving that particular cavern." - Benderr
Really?
Is this just Buford, or do you object to diving any system for the first time without a guide?
I personally would dive anything I could get tanks into, whether known or unknown, and most especially those that no one had ever been in before. With proper training of course and all due diligence.
skip
I missed the cavern cert. I'll dial back the snarkiness of my original post by 30%. Good enough?Quote:
Originally Posted by nkavallar
It depends on the system. I've been in caverns like JB and Morrison for the first time without guides, and been comfortable. I've been in other systems that I wouldn't have entered without a guide that I trusted.Quote:
Originally Posted by skip
Horrible walk in, horrible walk out. Great dives.
As you guys can imagine, I've had a few PM's. I will say that everyone who has sent one has been very respectful in what they have sent. Some shared some awesome stories, some disagreed with what I have said, all were welcome and appreciated.
This has been an interesting welcome to the CDF. Some of the best advice from one of those PM's told me if I want to be successful in cave diving, stay off the forums. LOL
I don't think I've been scared away from the forum, Thanks again everyone for the advice.
First, I want to add my support for having the guts to come on here and take your lumps. And also for deciding to get properly trained.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon362
But I was a little disturbed by the above comment, and no one pointed out the fallacy of that thinking. To me, that is the heart of the problem. Someone doing the "resort course" dive or "try scuba" on vacation is not the same as doing open water training. If you remember your open water course, some of it was about planning, but most of it concerned what to do when things go wrong. The same applies to open water divers in a cavern or cave environment. It's great to say you PLAN to stay in the upper section, PLAN to stay above 100'and PLAN to stay out of the overhead. But the chances of something not going according to plan must be taken into account, especially in a dirty, silty, muddy environment where you could get disoriented quickly.
I'm glad things went well and everyone is safe. And I am not accusing anyone of knowingly going beyond their training. It is the unknowingly part that folks need to understand. We don't do training for when things go right. We train for when things go wrong.
Congrats again on a safe dive.
I am sure you didn't, but that is because you probably have a different perspective than a "new" diver looking for caving experience. I thought it was bashing, but then again............you say potato and I say potatoe........Quote:
Originally Posted by Superlyte27
Buford is not kinda a cavern dive, it is a cavern dive. If something happens to one of the open water divers you are leading what will the lawyers say? Having a cavern card and leading open water divers into a cavern are two different things. Good luck, maybe we can get both Eagle Nest and Buford closed in the same month.
Open Water as defined by Wikipedia:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
Diving in an environment where the diver has direct vertical access to the surface of the water in contact with the Earth's atmosphere. "Open water diving" implies that if a problem arises, the diver can directly ascend vertically to the atmosphere to breathe air.
There are parts in Buford that meet this criteria.
Cavern as stated on the back of my cavern card:
Dive within the daylight zone, max depth 130', 200 linear ft. 40' Vis, No restrictions or Deco dives
There are parts in Buford that meet this criteria as well as parts that exceed these limits.
You lost me when you quoted Wikipedia. You're not helping yourself with your response. I don't think anyone with overhead training would call it anything other than an overhead dive, including both a cavern and a cave portion. You're fooling yourself saying it's not. That's just like the open water divers that enter Devil's system and say they're OK because it's just a direct swim out to open water.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon362
That's like someone who has no overhead wreck training going into the wreck, but it wasn't penetration cause you could easily swim right out a porthole.
I have dove buford plenty of times. Are you going to tell me that the OW divers you escorted to the site planned and executed an all OW dive and no cavern zone was entered by those divers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon362
I can tell by your posts, you are skirting the question and that you know what you are doing. Just don't be the name in the news, because now that it is proven you know better, you will have a tough time in court. These threads exist forever, just like everything else online... Be careful.
If I was your cavern instructor, I would call you up and give you some advice... not sure if you would listen though...
I've come here with an open mind willing to listen and learn. Thats why I have continued to follow this thread. Pretty easy for me to log off and walk away and not learn anything. I've taken to heart everything said here, both in the public thread and the numerous Pm's I've received. I've responded to every Pm and read every reply. Take a moment and put yourself in my shoes, when your cave diving career was new and fresh, when you spent every free moment you had learning about the sport you found yourself wrapped up in. I try and dive every chance that I get. It's still fun for me. I enjoy diving with those that are more experienced than me because just by watching sometimes you learn something new. I comb the old threads, read the accident reports. I'm here because when I'm not diving, I am usually thinking about it.
I'm sure a lot of this advise comes from your own close calls. Lessons learned from watching friends and strangers make poor choices, and reading about it in the papers.
It's easy to stand up and look down at those below you. It's even more fun to reach down and grab ahold of someone and pull them up to your level, because now there are two of you at that level. Everyone was a beginner once and I'm sure made their own mistakes.
I was fortunate that no one got hurt, we had a good time. Make sure to be extra careful, because todays world is filled with blame and lawsuits. Lesson learned.
Sounds like the best advise I have received during this is to just stay off the forums and be safe diving.
All I hear in your response is you speaking out of both sides of your mouth. On one hand you want to learn. On the other hand you only want to listen to and follow what's best for you. People here are only trying to help you be smarter and not negatively affect our sites.
You almost have an air of disdain in your comment to stay off the forum. Then stay off of it if you don't like it. I think most who post regularly dive just as regularly and like you constantly think about diving. So when we have to live in the real world and can't dive, we screw around here.
If that's how I come across it's not my intention. Thanks for the help. I'm ready to put this one behind me.
Sheesh guys give it a rest.
With the recent EN accident I'd say he got off easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishinmaniac
The same sort of egos and mindsets seem to end up as statistics over and over.