McBride

For many, many years those divers willing to tromp their way the short distance to Mcbride Spring have found a nice little jewel nestled in what appears to be just a small watershed. However, there is a new day soon to come. Colin has been speaking with the landowner and hunters there and has been told we can have access after this years hunting season as long as they do not have to deal with trespassers anymore. It seems they really just want to enjoy the hunting on their own land without issues. If this is able to happen we will be granted access in the off season. So if you all would do yourselves a favor for the sake of the cave diving community and stay away from the site for a few more months, access will become a little easier for all.

Yes I know the myth of navigable water ways but read up on sovereign lands under Florida statues before you attempt to make that argument with the local law enforcement which will come wait for you to exit. Depending on your legal experience an candor they might be nice enough to give your gear back after the showdown which you will not win.

Just a little FYI on the things coming in Wakulla.

gorgeous super delicate cave. hopefully it's treated with respect.
if you come into contact with one of the hunters they dont care much to discuss any navigable waterways...

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Originally Posted by speleodiver

Yes I know the myth of navigable water ways but read up on sovereign lands under Florida statues before you attempt to make that argument with the local law enforcement which will come wait for you to exit. Depending on your legal experience an candor they might be nice enough to give your gear back after the showdown which you will not win.

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"Navigable Waterway" does not apply. McBride's Spring and it's outflow fall under the Florida Sovereignty Submerged Lands and McBride's Spring and it's outflow are within the public domain. Because of that, one cannot "trespass" there when keeping within the limits of the low low water line. I have personally encountered Wakulla Co SO following a dive because those on the hunting lease called the police. The Sheriff's Office is well aware that as long as one keeps to the water and submerged lands below the low low water line, there is no cause of action for a trespass. Having said that, I do not dive there during the hunting season because it's not worth the encounter and potential hostile confrontation with men with guns.

Several months ago, I confirmed via the NWFWMD that McBride's and it's outflow are indeed public lands. McBride's and other adjacent springs are contained in this springs inventory: http://www.nwfwmd.state.fl.us/rmd/sp...ents/intro.htm

I've always wondered, since waaaaay back in my first dives at the Nest (1973).....why do hunters have such a b---h about cave divers?
We don't utilize/compete for their resource, occupy a TINY area compared to their hunting permits...and we enjoy the natural world where they will NEVER go?
Probably just an extension of the general public's lack of understanding of cave diving (lot's of them ain't too smart!).....
We don't effect them at all....except if there is a trespassing issue that might effect their access.....but if they are there...especially now, when cave diving is pretty much a proven safe (relatively) activity (I'm sure there are HUNDREDS more hunting death every year than cave diving?)...why can't we be? Just join the hunt club...and forget the guns...just dive!

Never mind...I know why....attorneys (see Terri Skiles sues Dive Rite)....

Seems to me if Mcbride is under public domain and it flows directly to the Wakulla River which is where Wakulla Springs is then diving Wakulla is a non issue. Guess I'm a little confused over all the hoopla last year. Why not, Drive right up, jump right in and tell them you have rights!! No need for all the public outcry and fussing. I would suggest some more investigation into the Raparian Rights under F.S. 253.141; DEP 18-21 Sovereignty Submerged Lands Management which is all covered in a nice article by an FSU law professor, before just deciding to have at it. One particular thing I noted was the landowners right to an unobstructed view. Now if a hunters view was obstructed through his or her fancy scope on that new rifle they bought as they were hunting them four legged fury creatures.....well you see where this could lead. Allen is right here. A well prepared argument is no match for a well placed 30-06 round. BTW, there has been an election in the past 9 months which placed a new sheriff in town.

I'm not sure why hunters and divers do not get along. Many divers are hunters of some sort but we just can't speak the hunters hunting lingo. Well some of us can't anyway!

The state has Wakulla locked down because the DEP has been delegated authority by the legislature to manage and protect state park lands. That gives DEP authority to promulgate rules and regulations to that end. What's ironic is they fought Ball for years over the fence and once in their hands, they adopted his position.

I have a feeling that hunters don't like anyone around their leases. They seem very protective. And with the lease adjacent McBride's being so close to a county road, there have been trespasses and thefts from the property. I get that they don't want anyone around because everyone is likely suspect to them, even cave divers.

As a hunter, I can tell you they don't want anybody else in the woods when they are hunting. For one thing I'd hate to think my high powered cartridge could travel a half a mile or so and kill you as your gearing up, so I'd rather no one be where I don't know they are, at least on my property or property I lease.
Responsible hunters know where the roads, houses etc. are and set up so they don't shoot in that direction. This is the responsible, nice hunters.
Most of the rest of them just don't want you tromping around laughing, dragging tanks etc. and scaring game away.
I think most think cave divers as some kind of mentally deficient folks, just like the general public, but really could care less if we killed ourselves or not, except that may interfere with their hunting, what with the Sheriff, body recovery and all.
Find a way we can partner with them, like somehow or another protect their lease or something during non-hunting season, and I'd bet pretty soon they would be showing you suspected cave sights you never had any idea about.
They just don't know us, if we show them that we aren't some kind of Bambi loving, tree hugging nuts from California, but are just regular people like them, and are willing to help where we can, and not get in their way it would work out.

Best reply I have ever seen re: hunters vs. cave divers..........and the ONLY one!
BTW.....the cave diving community ALWAYS does the recoveries...and no cost to the general populace..........the LEOS KNOW WHAT WE DO.........because they can not!
Imagine a world where only GOvERNTMENT QUALIFIED CAVE DIVERS would be required to do that ughly task........
It would take 3 or 4 X as long, cost 100 x as much.....well....you know the drill.....

I've walked that slough many times to dive McBride, its almost like a right of passage. Everything I've ever seen says its 100% legal to do so.


Beautiful cave, very delicate, hope it doesn't become a free for all in there.

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

As a hunter, I can tell you they don't want anybody else in the woods when they are hunting. For one thing I'd hate to think my high powered cartridge could travel a half a mile or so and kill you as your gearing up, so I'd rather no one be where I don't know they are, at least on my property or property I lease.
Responsible hunters know where the roads, houses etc. are and set up so they don't shoot in that direction. This is the responsible, nice hunters.
Most of the rest of them just don't want you tromping around laughing, dragging tanks etc. and scaring game away.
I think most think cave divers as some kind of mentally deficient folks, just like the general public, but really could care less if we killed ourselves or not, except that may interfere with their hunting, what with the Sheriff, body recovery and all.
Find a way we can partner with them, like somehow or another protect their lease or something during non-hunting season, and I'd bet pretty soon they would be showing you suspected cave sights you never had any idea about.
They just don't know us, if we show them that we aren't some kind of Bambi loving, tree hugging nuts from California, but are just regular people like them, and are willing to help where we can, and not get in their way it would work out.

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Thank you for this. I was gonna post somewhat the same thing. Just not as detailed.


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Originally Posted by speleodiver

I'm not sure why hunters and divers do not get along. Many divers are hunters of some sort but we just can't speak the hunters hunting lingo. Well some of us can't anyway!

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Around Tallahassee site(s) have been lost due to divers being on property (with club permission) when someone decides to go poaching during the off season. That person then gets clever and tells the club BOD that they're worried about the "liability" of diving and we all loose access.

Of course sneak diving likely doesn't help the situation.

I'll be anxious to see if you get access to McBrides. I had a chat with the owner and he didn't seem to anxious to allow access, citing he was sued for someone jumping off the bridge drunk, and also said that divers stacked cement bags on the south side of the bridge to make the waterway navigable. I know Ben G chatted with him about it as well as a few others off and on with the same success.

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

Beautiful cave, very delicate, hope it doesn't become a free for all in there.

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Me too, I hope it doesn't turn into Cow or Ginnie.

I need to get with Stece G, and start making the 144 square inches of hunter orange suits or full size hunter orange hoods

I am also concerned. Its really fragile with some tricky line situations that most tourist divers would not find inviting.

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I have been in Mcbride half a dozen times in 2.5 years. It wasn't pristine the first time I visited but past the restriction to the Fortress of Solitude was mostly pristine. I have watched the site degrade rather rapidly. I'm all for access but I still wouldn't advertise it. If I controlled access I'd (probably) stipulate divers use sidemount too. The ceiling and floor have taken a real beating.

It's a beautiful cave and worth the walk up river, for once I agree with Matt. Making it easier to get to will only invite more damage IMHO.

I dont think it's a sidemount cave but I agree with everything else you said
too much talk coming out of wakulla county lately

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

I think most (hunters) think cave divers as some kind of mentally deficient folks, just like the general public

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:rollguy
Are you implying we're NOT all mentally deficient?

Personally, I never even CONSIDERED taking up cave diving until after my 3rd concussion.