I dive a 21 watt HID as my primary light source in the cave and have had no problems with it just curious to see what kind of lights cave divers prefer and why they prefer one over the other?
I dive a 21 watt HID as my primary light source in the cave and have had no problems with it just curious to see what kind of lights cave divers prefer and why they prefer one over the other?
21w hid is perfect for me. I haven't seen the uw light dude lights in action. but as of now I have no compelling reason to switch
LED... Last longer
I prefer my 21W HID, but the LM 12W LED in SM configuration is OK.
This is one of those threads that a search would find a lot of other similar threads.
As far as not seeing an UWLD light, without having seen one, you can't decide which you like better, LED or HID. I like diving my LM 50W HID, any HID of less power, Bobby's light simply out performs. There are disadvantages to the 50W HID, mostly the car sized battery that is required to supply that kind of power. I lkie the beam focus that I've only seen so far in an HID.
ive been in the cave with a diver who was using an UWLD and it was for sure a great light i was very impressed im just not sold on LED yet everyone one says they last longer and and can take a beating better than HID im intrested to know how many divers have legitimately broken there HID bulbs themselves from dropping or smashing them im an intro diver so my gear takes a beating and my light just keeps on ticking
I also think and this is my opinion that the primary purpose for cave lights is for signaling and second purpose is for seeing the cave and in my limited experince thus far in cave diving HID creates a far better concentrated beam for signaling better than LED most LED in my opinion make more of a flood beam and tend to wash out others lights
My HID bulb broke when I was getting out of the water and my light head swung down about 2' and hit something. I also went through several HID bulbs because they just burned out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs123
I would have agreed with you before we created the LD-35 with 3500 Lumen of light output and only 30 watts of power consumption. 4.5 hours on our tall (144wh) canister and 3 hours on our short (96wh). Brohahaha ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
I am still diving my HID that I bought a long time ago. I always thought I would wait until they made a focusable LED of equal or greater power.
I was offered a test dive of a LD-26 at Manatee. I saw more cave in that one dive than I had seen in the previous 8 dives.
Now I am saving my money for one!
21w HID for me. Thus far, all the LEDs I've seen play 2nd fiddle.
Wow. Was there a comment that didn't include UWLD?
I suppose that's your answer however I have yet to see this light... :-)
Garth
21W HID, before that it was an 18W HID. The 21W HID from LM I have is like a light saber, nice tightly focused beam that can signal everyone. If I want, it can also unfocus and it becomes a nice BRIGHT flood.
Dive safe,
Celia
I broke an HID bulb when getting into the water - the light head came unclipped and fell about one foot and smacked a rock. I've also replaced an HID bulb on two other occasions when it burned out. That gets expensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs123
I see you have released the BEAST.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby
I've never broken or replaced my bulb. it's about 6 or 7 years old nowQuote:
Originally Posted by Avs123
DiveRite 24 watt HID this light has been a bad A$$ light. The light head is small all the stuff is in the can. Just no need to buy another light. Some day maybe. Dive safe. Red.
I still prefer HID lights. LED's are nice, but I prefer the punch I get with a HID. I've had two HID lights, a DR 10W MR11, and now a LM 35W - still haven't popped a bulb. I carry a spare to satisfy Murphy, but I've never had a problem with these bulbs. In fact, when I sold my MR11 last year it still had its original bulb.
You can test dive any light out there, so my suggestion is to zero in on 1 or 2 that you like and give them a try.
I started when HIDs were the only logical choice. Today it's LED.
The LEDs do give a longer dive time - batteries being the same - but that may not be a deciding factor, based on how long your dives are. My rebreather will run 11+ hours (scrubber duration) so I use a light that will go at least that long. I figure if I get into trouble, having a light that will help a rescue team find me is worth having. Of course in such emergency situations you can achieve the same result by going to your backups.
I have a LED with 3 lamp settings, so if I need extra punch I can dial the brightest setting. For most of my diving I prefer a lower setting and a wider beam. Just depends on what you like for the way you dive.
LEDs seem to be getting less expensive than many HIDs (for the same burn times), lighter & smaller, too. So, suggest you test dive one from each camp.
I didn't know there was anything bigger than the 26, does Edd have one of the 35's?Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveP
Yes, Edd has a demo in the shop. We have not formally announced the LD-35 yet however word has gotten out so we posted the commercial last night on You Tube. We had planned on getting units to the dealers before making the announcement. We all know how well secret information is kept in the diving community. ;) We are in the process of building them now to fill the orders we already have. From the response even before we put the word out it looks like we will be very busy for a while. :)
I had the LD-35 in JB this past weekend when the viz was rather hazy. It has some serious punch even with a good bit of particulate in the water.
I swear it wasn't me. I didn't say a word...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby
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Clearly you haven't seen very many potent LED lights.Quote:
Originally Posted by PfcAJ
I like my 21w led a lot. It's really bright and I like the color temp and signal spot.
I overheard somebody talking about permanent eye damage being possible from looking into one of the next generation of super bright lights for even moment.
Hopefully that's not going to be something to worry about when passing another team. Of all the dangers involved will we need to add blindness to the list?
Pretty soon we will need diving masks with the same auto darkening lenses as welding masks.
That is possibly from people that have had a chance to look at our 6000 Lumen video light that will be released very soon. The head is the same size as our primary lights. We started warning people to be careful when turning it on with where it is pointing. If they have it pointed directly at their eyes it can cause damage. In the water with a couple of feet of distance it won't be a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by hunabku
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I like my HID as well. A lot of the light comparisons I see online between HID and LED is done in the clear Florida caves. Here in our murky caves, I like the punch of my HID.
Bobby, that video light is truly awesome. I can't wait to see it in the water. Hopefully I can convince my wife that I need one for Christmas!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby
You're a sick man, Bobby. Can't you leave my poor wallet alone? I was about to buy your small light and long canister before this post. Now I'm torn and my wallet is screaming at me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby
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Well...yeah. That's my point ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by nakatomi
:-)Quote:
Originally Posted by PfcAJ
Edd has one that you can take to try out the next time you are over in that area. Don't blame me though if you can't do without it after you dive it though. ;)
Fortunately after a year of producing our own lights we have refined our processes, established volume with our suppliers, and made a few changes that have improved quality, production capability, and lowered costs. This allowed us to adjust our prices to you and our dealers to make our lights more affordable. I have no doubt you will like our new pricing as much as our new products, if not more. :D
WOW! The new prices are awesome! Thanks BobbyQuote:
Originally Posted by Bobby
Yeah they are. Maybe the fiance will be less likely to murder me?Quote:
Originally Posted by nkavallar
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So how much is the price difference in list say old 26 price vs new 26 price?
Dive Rite in Scuba shows the prices as followed:
LD15 = $995
LD26 = $1295
LD35 = $1595
Looks to me like a $2-300 difference. But I could be wrong, I don't remember the exact prices
The pricing has been reduced from $380.00 to $405.00 pending the exact model and options. It has taken us months of working with our suppliers to not only reduce our costs and make also make many improvements. Our machining tolerances are night and day better, improved color and deeper penetration of the hard coat type 3 anodizing. The Goodman handle has been improved considerably. Most already know about the new clip that light head snaps into and it doesn't break. We have also rounded all the corners and put a round profile on the back end of the base to make it more stable on your hand. We added a neoprene cover to the base and a scooter loop of shock cord that goes around the wrist to keep the light from shaking while scootering. We also got rid of the retainer clip on the flat elastic and added sewn in Velcro and have a much better and more consistent supplier for our elastic. Over all we think everyone will like all the improvements we have made along the way.
That's not quite the huge price drop I had hoped for :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby
JJ,Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
I think he was saying $380 to $400 per light, not a price drop of $20
I just got back from and hour and half dive with Edd where we had a -15, a -35 and the new video light.
A few opinions of mine, remember opinions are like an orifice, we all have one.
From just pure output of light perspective the -35 still doesn't have the amount of light output of a LM-50. I did not take my LM-50 with me today, so it's an impression, not something I actually put one against the other. The LM 50 I think will shine a light further and beam focus is variable so you can spread out the beam like Bobby's light, in tight focus it's well more tightly focused than Bobby's light. But I'm pretty sure when you spread out the beam of the LM 50, you lose a lot of efficiency, in other words I think you lose a lot of light when you defocus the beam, I think the reflector has a "sweet spot" and get out of the sweet spot and it's inefficient, so while you can have a broad beam, I think you lose a lot of light doing so, so in broad beam Bobby's light may in fact deliver more light.
From a user friendliness perspective, Bobby's light simply blows the LM 50 out of the water so to speak. The LM battery is huge, the light head itself is quite large and long and tries to occupy the same space where I wear my computer. The LD 35 has three light levels and can be dismounted from the Goodman handle via the clip, it comes with two bolt snaps, one on the light and one on the handle. The light itself is tiny compared to the LM. It has what looks like about the same beam width the 26 does, but seems to have a little whiter light, or maybe just more light in the same or similar beam. I did not have a 26 with me so this is just what it seemed like. I think the 35 does do a better job of penetrating particulate, but I don't know why, maybe simply more light, or is there a little color difference?
The video light is, well a video light. In other words from a using it like a diving light, it's similar to walking in the woods holding a lantern in front of your face. But for doing what's its made for it is seemingly as good as if not maybe a little better than my LM 50 with a video reflector. My impression is Bobby's video light has more light output than a LM 50, but that's just my impression. As a video light it's outstanding. It has all the good features I like so much in the other lights, small form factor clip mounted, etc. It has a very unusual LED, I've never seen one like it before. I think maybe some kind of surface mount LED? Just very unusual looking, while I don't think it could be focused, if it could it would make one heck of a dive light.
I'd love to mount one of the video lights on the front of my scooter and hand hold the 35, that would be ideal, I think.
From an actual sidemount as in tight places, I think the -15 is maybe the ideal sidemount light. That surprised me, being the least expensive, I didn't expect that, but it's got a tighter beam and seemed to penetrate particulate very well, maybe better than the more expensive lights, and is I think more actual light output than we might think. So maybe I want a -35 for big cave and a -15 with the small battery for real sidemount stuff?
I used to say that HID's were still King, their days may be numbered, but they are still King.
Well, I now think that HID has gone the way of Halogen, it has been un-seated as King.
I was with Bobby in JB last week checking out the LD35 and one of his other lights and was blown away by the LD35. (I was equally impressed by the other one but am trying to stay on topic of the LD35) I am coming from a 21wHID and couldn't believe the concentration and output of light...my first thought was "this thing is a light cannon." The quality of the lights have dramatically improved and the first thing I noticed was the 100% improvement with the light head clip. In full disclosure, I did the short teaser for Bobby...but regardless of the relationship, I was very impressed with the direction they went in with the LD35. Taking it to less exciting waters tomorrow (Gilboa quarry) for a couple buds that want to check it out to see how it does in the quarry. Side note: If anyone reading this will be at Gilboa on Sun 9/15 and you want to check it out...I will be on the deep side in the morning...pm me here.
back on topic...regardless of the light you choose that best suits your needs...you have to admit that anyone who has met Bobby picks up on his passion for building quality lights and educating divers to make them educated buyers.
LED.... because of longer burn time and durability.
I've only used HID - Tracy and I have had the same primary lights since starting cave diving in 2005. A friend just converted our lights to LED and we'll be putting them to use soon. I've had an HID bulb blow when I turned it on after a very slight impact with a rock while getting into the water, and I've had a couple blow for no reason that I could discern, except that maybe they were trying to be annoying. So I'm looking forward to the increased durability. These LED's are also supposed to have about 1.5 X the light output of the HID bulbs they replaced, but I've always felt that my 10 watt HID gave me plenty of light.
Mike
Some of us are stuck with HID's because of money but when the day comes that my light wears out (and when I have the money) I'll switch.
After a couple failures with my Halcyon HID that caused cave dives to be called, I switched to the Greenforce LED, which I loved and worked flawlessly for me for 9 years. It just failed last month due to battery age, and I placed my LightDude order last week. The 9watt equivalence of the Greenforce was enough for me, but I am excited about receiving my new Lightdude light and seeing wall-to-wall! The reviews have all been stellar, and I know Bobby well enough to know that he would not enter the market just to offer another light, but to offer something exceptional!
WJH
Now I am even more interested to see the new 35 UWLD.
I love the LM 35 HID and the UWLD 26w LED those two lights I have used and enjoyed.
Used LM 21 HID, DR 10w HID, LM & DR LED's all worked well but the two afore mentioned lights were my pics.
Outstanding service from either companies.
If you know Bobbie he is driven to produce the finest light out there!
Looking forward to seeing one of these inaction in Oct.!
JCG
I have the HOG 21W HID (LM Made supposedly)
I had the chance to dive with a 21W LED LM light last year. I just didn't compare to HID.
I missed the focusable beam that my HID has (I use this feature a lot). Also it seemed the LED just didn't have the cutting power that the HID did, it couldn't throw as far.
I like the nice clean white of LED, but it just does't cut it when it comes to sheer brightness overall, spread, etc.
I also like that LED is either on or off. There's no warm up time as with HID...and no period of pause before firing it back up if you should shut it off for fear of damage.
Just observations over the past year or so since I got my HID.
LED technology has grown by leeps and bounds and their durability is second to none. I my opinion the secret is how the high performance manufacturers have figured out how to assemble the light head so the LEDs are focused and the power doesnt burn the LEDs up after a few dives.
It is no secret that I am a huge Uwlightdude fan, Bobby refuses to settle for status quo in manufacturing or in life. I think that the HID technology will be around for a few years and you will be hard pressed to tell a cave diver that his HID he has used for years is junk. You might get a blackeye from a diver that has hundreds of great dives with that light. I am very lucking to have the lghtdude as much friend and mentor, in the years I have known him he has taught more about lights and cave diving than I could have ever learned without him. He will be a leader in the light industry for years.
LED. I don't do canister lights, and you can't package an HID small enough.
If money is a concern, do not dismiss the ULD refit. He did a refit to one of the small DR light heads for me that is outstanding at a remarkable price.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavern newbee
In fact, if you were to come across one of these DR lights with either an HID or an early DR LED conversion for the right price, add the cost of his refit, you would come out of it doing quite well with a great light...
I am not a spokesman blah blah blah, just a satisfied end user.
Busted one at little River when it fell off the truck. Broke one at JB in class while performing a lights out drill. Best I can figure, it hit the wall of the chimney during the ascent. I treat my HIDs like babys now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs123
Prefer 21W HID due to tight beam.
HID - tight / adjustable beam, sufficient spill, greater punch through the murk.
That's funny - I prefer HID because of the wide beam - I adjust it to be as wide as possible. I haven't seen an LED that is as wide. (When I see one I'll probably switch for the durability.)Quote:
Originally Posted by lv2dive
Bobby is about to release a 6000lm video light. Talk about a WIDE beam!!
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I'm looking for a halogen light, what is all this talk of LED.
I have a couple of halogen lights complete with SLA batteries. LOL ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulmal
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
My HID fell off the wall at little River, and broke the bulb, I switched to LED after that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs123
You will love the UWLD lights, especially the bigger ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
I dive a LM 21 W HID. I recently bought the lightly used uwlitedude 26-144 (or whatever the numbers are) that was on this forum. Here's my thoughts. The UW light beats the lightmonkey on size. I love how compact it is. I received the original goodman. Used it with the elastic band. Apparently this one of the originals because all of the edges are crazy sharp, and frankly I hated it. It seemed so poorly made compared to the light that it greatly detracted from the light. It looked made in someone's kitchen. At edd's this weekend I bought the new upgraded handle. It's got round edges, a nice neoprene protector and is the quality that matches the rest of the light. Now the important stuff. Just like everyone else has said, you can definitely see more cave. The beam is wide and even with no hot spots. It is an excellent light in big clear cave. The one caveat is that wide beam makes signaling slightly more difficult. Not much. But it's not a signal like you get with an hid laser beam.
The silver bullet that kills the light for me is particulate. It sucks in silt. The beam is so strong and wide that in any silty situations it creates a curtain of back scattered light. We dove hole in the wall and kicked up a normal amount of silt with normal fin kicks. No one was silting. There's was just lots of easily disturbed particulate. There were points where with my hid I would have had 40 foot viz but the backcatter dropped it to 5 or 10. My team mate noticed it as well. Yes you can lower it to another setting and it helps tremendously but frankly I don't want to. I want to keep my light on high and just dive.
One other thing I did notice is that the piezo is great for turning the light on and off. Trying to negotiate different settings, not so much. You are supposed to hold the piezo for one second and release and it will change the setting. It took many tries for each change. It really is annoying and detracts from the light.
Don't get me wrong the UW light dude light is amazing and puts out more light than anything I've used. It's very well made and sturdy.
So what's my ruling in the hid/led fight. I'm keeping both. My LM hid is my go to light for all conditions. It may be bulkier and more intrusive than the UW light dude, but I know I will like it in any situation. The UW lite dude will be my go to light when I know I'm going to be in crystal clear cave. It will absolutely light more cave than the LM.
The big factor is price. If I didn't have a can light and were trying the two all weekend as a pre-buy trial, I would go with the LM. It is better for all conditions and very significantly cheaper.
I almost forgot. For sm the UW light dude light did give me about two more inches of cord than my LM which was nice, but my LM has the normal can head not the sm head. I don't know if it would be different with the sm lid.
Huge cost difference? Where are you finding the LM 21W HID for "very significantly cheaper" than current UWLD pricing? Also, what about the durability of LED vs HID....and the cost over the span of the lift of the light (bulb/ballast vs practically no maintenance).
What maintenance are you referring to with HID? I bought my HID in early 2008, and haven't done a thing to it in nearly 6 years now.Quote:
Originally Posted by victorzamora
I didn't mean maintenance for hid, I just meant no replacing bulbs or ballast on led, and no worries about turning them on at the surface or turning them on for a short time and burning them out.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victorzamora
I believe I commented on the durability in my post. I acutally got a PM from Bobby about a couple of things. First of all he told me that the 26-144(I think that's the numbers) is not the "competitor" to the 21W, the one below the 26-144 is. I was told something completely different by a retailer. I was told the 21 W HID and the 26-144 are direct competitors. Based on my initial understanding that would mean a very big cost difference. My LM 21 W HID was just around $950. The retail on the UWLD 26 is about $1400 or so but can be had for less. The cost difference is different if the UWLD that is a step down is the true 21 W HID competitor.
Bobby also gave me a hint on how to better use the piezo. It definitely helped. Still not 100% perfect, but much better.
Really in my book the issue remains the backscatter issue. Diving HITW, the backscatter from particulate was severe and tremendously limited visbility. I would not ever take the UWLD into a tight environment that I knew would be very silty. Penetration is far greater with the HID from what I experienced. I have both, so I will just pick the right tool for the right job. If both burnt in a fire and I had to pick a replacement, I'd have to go with the HID eventhough I like the stength of the 26 better. The HID would be a better all around choice. Of course that's my opinion only.
The point you're making is fair, really. ... and I'm not trying to defend LED or Bobby at all, much less blindly.
Having said that, where are you finding that light for under $1k. All I can find now is that LM light for $1380. That's a big price advantage the other way.
The piezo switch takes some getting used to. He used to have easier to activate switches, but they were too easy and activated by themselves.
However, having dove it in HITW in less than perfect vis I can say that the lower power settings really helped. I'm interested in diving a few lights at the same time (all 3 of Bobby's lights, and two different HID lights would be best) in both perfect vis and HITW and see how they do. Once you're in hitw, though, the vis should be pretty good.
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I paid $965. Get to edd on the right day and buy enough stuff to make a deal better and anything's possible. A second lm 21w hid from edd not stockpiled with other goods and more recently was still $1025 if i remember correctly.
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That's one of the big pluses of the HID... the adjustable beam... when I get into silty areas, I push the spread out wide to lessen the intensity. When I get into big dark crystal clear areas, I push it to full lightsaber beam and it does the job. I like this as I also use it for photo/video use too (less/more beam when needed). I've yet to see an LED light have the pure cutting power of darkness that an HID provides. There's a reason cars use HID over LED for headlights ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
I don't think so, at least not anymore, I believe that's changing fastQuote:
Originally Posted by corvettejoe