Experienced Cavers and Tech Divers Who've Died

I keep having the same conversation with OW divers who think 10 trips to the gate in Vortex, qualifies them to be cave divers. I'm having the same conversation with freshly minted cavern divers who think cavern = cave.

Being a lowly cavern diver myself, I feel I have less room to lecture folks with the same level of training.

Perhaps I'm off base, but I think it would be beneficial to give these folks a list of names, and let them look up the circumstances of those peoples' passings, and then simply ask the question, "Are you a better diver than these folks?" These (in some cases) world-class pioneer divers thought they could bend the rules, and look what happened.

If you think this is a bad idea, please make your argument, I'm open-minded on the subject.

If you agree with my thinking, please add names to the thread. I'm mostly interested in full cave or technical divers, and I'd like to focus on folks who are experienced vs. newly minted.

Thanks

p.s.: The reason I think this is a good idea is because you often get better results with an argument by asking a question as opposed to making a statement. Also, one of my favorite underwater photographs is a NatGeo pic by Wes Skiles. Agnes Milowka is one of the two divers in the photo (see below). Whenever I see that photo, I'm struck by amazing beauty of that location. It's indescribable. My second thought is always, two-thirds of the people executing this dive are dead. To me, it's humbling.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...s-cave-714.jpg

I believe Squirrel Girl took this picture.

It shouldn't matter if you have more or less training than more experienced people... the fact is, you must have a good head on your shoulders and know what your limits are if this concerns you at all.
There's nothing wrong with expressing your concern to those that are trying to go past their training and diving dangerously. It will only serve as a warning to keep them safe. Maybe it will get through to them, maybe it wont... you did your job.

This name always comes to mind for me:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Shaw_%28diver%29

If this is a project you're passionate about it has a chance of working. The aim should be well-known should be revisited frequently when discussing this list. This list you speak of could easily be taken in an offensive way. Even though attempting to keep cavern divers out of caves is a noble and popular stance, the method and content must be accurate and tasteful.

Having said that I must first state that I am no cave diver nor am I an experienced technical diver. Heck, I consider myself new to Diving. Before you write me off on this topic however know that I was planning on meeting Wes Skiles at some point after being impressed by his work the waters journey. I was watching that natgeo extreme Cave diving for somewhat the 40th time at the precise time I had found out that he had passed away. I became Agnes's Facebook friend shortly before she traveled to tank cave. These are people that I looked forward to meeting because they shared a passion for diving and somehow made their way to either my tv screen or computer screen. There are plenty of other Divers that share this passion and I look forward to diving with however the passing of these two made it extremely real given the timing.

I wish you the best of luck my friend.





Garth

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Originally Posted by Benderr

I keep having the same conversation with OW divers who think 10 trips to the gate in Vortex, qualifies them to be cave divers. I'm having the same conversation with freshly minted cavern divers who think cavern = cave.

Being a lowly cavern diver myself, I feel I have less room to lecture folks with the same level of training.

Perhaps I'm off base, but I think it would be beneficial to give these folks a list of names, and let them look up the circumstances of those peoples' passings, and then simply ask the question, "Are you a better diver than these folks?" These (in some cases) world-class pioneer divers thought they could bend the rules, and look what happened.

If you think this is a bad idea, please make your argument, I'm open-minded on the subject.

If you agree with my thinking, please add names to the thread. I'm mostly interested in full cave or technical divers, and I'd like to focus on folks who are experienced vs. newly minted.

Thanks

p.s.: The reason I think this is a good idea is because you often get better results with an argument by asking a question as opposed to making a statement. Also, one of my favorite underwater photographs is a NatGeo pic by Wes Skiles. Agnes Milowka is one of the two divers in the photo (see below). Whenever I see that photo, I'm struck by amazing beauty of that location. It's indescribable. My second thought is always, two-thirds of the people executing this dive are dead. To me, it's humbling.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...s-cave-714.jpg

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I don't know that a list of trained cave divers or technical divers who died tech/cave diving would really prove anything. It almost seems like a list you'd use to justify NOT getting training.

Wouldn't the size of the cave diving award lists be a better example of why we get training, along side a list of untrained fatalities?

To me, even more impactfull is the list of names of all of the divers who died while following all of the guidelines established for safe cave diving.

Its a pretty short list.

1)Parker Turner

Could be more but I am not aware of them.

The two guys at Madison 1999. The cave divers dilemma; what if you do everything right and still die!

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

I believe Squirrel Girl took this picture.

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Very sad.

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Originally Posted by hunabku

To me, even more impactfull is the list of names of all of the divers who died while following all of the guidelines established for safe cave diving.

Its a pretty short list.

1)Parker Turner

Could be more but I am not aware of them.

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One follow-up on the Indian Springs incident.
http://earth.huji.ac.il/data/pics/ca...r+collapse.pdf

I'm also a newer cavern diver as of April with about 15 cavern dives so far. I still feel that I am barely a twinkle in the eye of the cave community. I am also taking a slow progression with training and talking / diving with people to gain mentorship. This has been a wonderful learning experience for me so far and I thank those more experienced that have taken the time to mentor me.
I know other people who have the wrong attitude for this kind of diving and a list of seasoned cave divers/ tech divers who have died probably won't do much for them. However I know others with a better attitude who just don't know since they are newer to overhead training. That list and accident/ incident reports will help give those people perspective.


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<--- 'nother newbie.

I find the analysis on these boards to be most helpful. Every single one (except P Turner) seems to involve a tiny misjudgement, exacerbated by complacency, arrogance, and sometimes just plain stupidity.

The list of names would not do as much as the constant analysis that discovers this same trend over and over.

I invite you to suggest them read the clasic book:
Basic Cave Diving: A Blueprint for Survival
by the Great Sheck Exley.

There one will read:
1. Be Trained for Cave Diving, and Remain Within the Limits of Your Training
2. Maintain a Continuous Guideline to the Cave Exit
3. Keep Two Thirds of Your Starting Gas Volume in Reserve to Exit the Cave
4: Remain Within the Safest Possible Operating Limits for Your Breathing Media
5: Use Three Sources of Light

The first rule is crystal clear: NO Exceptions

Parker Turner crossed my mind as well.

The problem here is this divers ego. Its just as bad as Ben McDaniel and I doubt anyone can change this. I do hope gis cavern instructor is aware of the situation that happened. This is one of those times I would support voiding a cert as with the attitude I saw in his posting today somewhere else, he is a good candidate for a dirt nap. Good luck Alex, I hope you can reach him or his buddy.

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Originally Posted by argyris

I invite you to suggest them read the classic book:
Basic Cave Diving: A Blueprint for Survival
by the Great Sheck Exley.

There one will read:
1. Be Trained for Cave Diving, and Remain Within the Limits of Your Training
2. Maintain a Continuous Guideline to the Cave Exit
3. Keep Two Thirds of Your Starting Gas Volume in Reserve to Exit the Cave
4: Remain Within the Safest Possible Operating Limits for Your Breathing Media
5: Use Three Sources of Light

The first rule is crystal clear: NO Exceptions

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I agree, plus each chapter starts with an analysis of a fatal cave diving accident illustrating the rule.

But there are those people who combine invincible ignorance with an "It can't happen to me" attitude and usually a bit of testosterone poisoning. Too much ego and too little judgment is a deadly combination - I've been seeing the results in the street and in the ER and ICU for 37 years.

Some of them can convincingly fake a safe attitude while they're in class, but once they're out from under the eye of their instructor it's YEE-HAW!

Mike

In this case I do believe they have sheck's book.


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Originally Posted by Benderr

p.s.: The reason I think this is a good idea is because you often get better results with an argument by asking a question as opposed to making a statement.

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Totally agree. Gives the person the chance to "respond." If they can't, then maybe you may have helped them see the light... to think a little... and keep them less on the "defensive" The "Socratic" method works wonders.

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Originally Posted by Benderr

Also, one of my favorite underwater photographs is a NatGeo pic by Wes Skiles. Agnes Milowka is one of the two divers in the photo (see below). Whenever I see that photo, I'm struck by amazing beauty of that location. It's indescribable. My second thought is always, two-thirds of the people executing this dive are dead. To me, it's humbling.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...s-cave-714.jpg

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Funny you should mention this (i.e. your "P.S."). It's a picture of Wes Skiles that's been a source of frustration for me as well, and a lot of discussion between me and my cave mentor about my rate of progress/experience, and when its right for me to "advance" to the next level. The picture of Wes' is the main ballroom of Diepolder II. It spoiled me rotten! :-D In some respects, I almost wish I'd never seen it (out of sight out of mind). Had I not, I'd probably not have that in mind as a "career pinnacle" dive, and not be considering what task-list /time table it will take to get me to that end. My "end-game" vision would be a lot less "advanced."

FTR, NO I WILL NEVER EXCEED THE LEVEL OF MY TRAINING/EXPERIENCE!

I know (and accept) that my cave experience journey will be a lot longer than most (i.e. those with full time access to cave country). And I'm happy to let it take as long as it needs. I'm just saying it doesn't come without "frustrations." Uncertainty as to what that timetable should be (in my case) and the appropriate milestones is one. I tell my mentor I'm getting the itch to begin "normoxic mix" training, and he comes right back.... "Noooope... you still have a lot of cave to see, yet." I respect my mentor's judgement and I keep my "objectives" in check. Of course, he's absolutely right. But, like I say, it's just "frustrating" a little when you see all these videos & pictures, etc. (and look at the CDF threads :-D), and you know it will be quite a while before you "get there," if you do, at all.

As for this thread's topic, one name comes to mind for me. I don't know the final disposition of his death (i.e. if there was any attributed fault on his part). But he was someone I actually had met, of all places, in the basin of P1 (he was teaching a class and was kind enough to stop and talk with me for a bit during S.I.) and less than 1 year before he died.

Robert Klein.

This is depressing. The whole thread.

Cave divers die , perhaps usually, from complacency and / or not planning..

Shut up and get your cave training.......and follow it!
Its that simple.

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Originally Posted by Tessunderwater

In this case I do believe they have sheck's book.


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Maybe Sheck's obituary in combination with his books would have the desired effect. Quite frankly if someone thinks it can't happen to them then they don't have the right mindset for this sort of diving.

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Originally Posted by moody

Maybe Sheck's obituary in combination with his books would have the desired effect. Quite frankly if someone thinks it can't happen to them then they don't have the right mindset for this sort of diving.

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I completely agree.


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Remember there is not any safety blanket. Anyone can die, on every dive. This is a sacred rule.
http://www.scubapatchart.com/images/cave_diving2.JPG
Or even better,wear this t-shirt as a silent agitator: http://www.scubapatchart.com/cave_diving_t-shirts.html Make a statement and let them wonder. If they do not understand this statement they dont have the proper mindset for cave diving.

Another good book about how complaceny kills even the trained and experient diver is the NACD "Guidelines for Success"
"Safe cave diving is no accident. Over time, many divers both trained and untrained in the art of safe cave diving have died in caverns and caves. Despite the fact divers are better educated today about the hazards of the cave environment, deaths continue. Trends show the cave diving community is effectively educating divers who lack cave training. Numbers of deaths among those who lack training continue to remain low. The numbers of deaths trending upward are among those who have been certified to cave dive. It is because of this concern the NACD is producing the book, Guidelines for Success. Times change and so do divers, techniques, and technology. With this in mind, we hope to offer the newest information available with a style that is positive and encourages divers to focus on making smart choices. Due to the fact that fatalities of certified cavern and cave divers is increasing, this book will include information directed specifically at those divers as well as those preparing to train. It will also provide good resource material for both sport and technical divers." http://www.nacdmembers.com/store/ind...&products_id=4.

With the exception of Parker Turner (collapse) and perhaps Roberta Swicegood (drysuit) it comes down to poor decision making. At some point in predive or during the dive folks make a bad decision and pay for it. You can teach and train people how to make good decisions and you can talk to them until you are blue in the face, but you can't make the decision for them.

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Originally Posted by Jay

With the exception of Parker Turner (collapse) and perhaps Roberta Swicegood (drysuit) it comes down to poor decision making. At some point in predive or during the dive folks make a bad decision and pay for it. You can teach and train people how to make good decisions and you can talk to them until you are blue in the face, but you can't make the decision for them.

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With Roberta, it was mostly poor decision making. If she had turned the dive when the drysuit started leaking, she would have made it out OK. She was too goal oriented, and tried to complete her survey, in spite of the flooded suit, in 50 degree water.

You can add "goal obsession" to the list of things that cause well trained cave divers to have accidents.
To list a few:
Sheck Exley, trying to set a depth record.
Steve Berman, trying to finish a map
Roberta Swicegood, trying to finish a survey.
Ron Simmons, trying to finish a map.

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Originally Posted by FW

With Roberta, it was mostly poor decision making. If she had turned the dive when the drysuit started leaking, she would have made it out OK. She was too goal oriented, and tried to complete her survey, in spite of the flooded suit, in 50 degree water.

You can add "goal obsession" to the list of things that cause well trained cave divers to have accidents.

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Good point. Goal obsession does lead to poor decisions. I know I have put myself in bad spots before because of it.

Wes Skiles...trying to shoot video and make some cash using a rebreather that he was not trained or certified on, and ignoring one of the primary rules of rebreather use.."always carry sufficient bailout gas pertinent to the depths involved"
See "stay within your training".......the primary rule in Sheck's book.
I would add that COMPLACENCY is probably the biggest reason for very experienced, trained cave/technical diver deaths........
We've all cut corners...it's just a matter of the "domino effect"... if you started the dive with one domino tilting...the next one may set off the chain reaction that leaves to tragedy.

Forrest, are you saying maps are three times as dangerous as depth?

In a few cases...Sheck's, for example (Dana Turner and Lewis Holtzendorff also come to mind)...there were no "training levels" to stay within.....the diver was a pioneer and was pushing the envelope way beyond any training, or even documented science, available at the time.
The WKPP divers are in the same area...they do dives that are basically "guinea pig experiments", considering the depths and exposure/decompression times, and the gasses used for such.
Although their track record is long term enough and has the results now that they may be a lot more mainstream than normally admitted....and they do "training" in their techniques under GUE. Back in the 80's, 90's, and early "00's" they were still pretty experimental.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Forrest, are you saying maps are three times as dangerous as depth?

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You may have hit on a point there. SOLO mapping may be three times more dangerous then depth.....

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Originally Posted by phreaticus53

In a few cases...Sheck's, for example (Dana Turner and Lewis Holtzendorff also come to mind)...there were no "training levels" to stay within.....the diver was a pioneer and was pushing the envelope way beyond any training, or even documented science, available at the time.
The WKPP divers are in the same area...they do dives that are basically "guinea pig experiments", considering the depths and exposure/decompression times, and the gasses used for such.
Although their track record is long term enough and has the results now that they may be a lot more mainstream than normally admitted....and they do "training" in their techniques under GUE. Back in the 80's, 90's, and early "00's" they were still pretty experimental.

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there really is no training for what the wkpp does. GUE or otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Jay

SOLO mapping may be three times more dangerous then depth.....

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It wasn't being solo that got Steve and Ron - it was being solo without the extra contingencies that solo requires.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

It wasn't being solo that got Steve and Ron - it was being solo without the extra contingencies that solo requires.

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I understand. I am a proponent of solo diving also!

Bill McFadden
Sherwood Schille
Bobby McGuirre
Steve Berman

Jim Miller

From my experience there is no cookie cutter statement to get an individual to understand they may be putting themselves at higher risk. I have also found that the 80/20 rule is fairly spot on when it comes to people being receptive. 80% will not listen and 20% will. Taking an individual approach and asking more questions has seemed to work best from my experience. Ask the person about their diving and take the time to get into details of their plan while explaining the gaps or incorrect approach with complete respect.

This sometimes means that I have had to alter or cancel my own dive plans to make the time needed to get the message across. Many years ago I was getting ready for a rather long dive at Eagles Nest. Two divers showed up and started preparing for a dive a short time after I had arrived. After saying hello I went about my business of preparing for my dive while listening to the other two discussing their plans and paying attention to their configurations. It soon became apparent that they were not trained or experienced for the dive that they were preparing for. I started chatting with them about diving and asking questions. It took over an hour to get them to admit that they were not cave or mix certified and another hour, as well as an offer to buy lunch, to convince them to scrub their dive. We packed our gear up and headed to Hooters for lunch which was a long long lunch. Hopefully the conversation convinced them that they needed to seek training and take the time to build experience before taking on a dive such as the Nest.

My only point is that blanket or canned statements don't seem to make an impact. To get a complex point across requires time and effort.

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Originally Posted by FW

With Roberta, it was mostly poor decision making. If she had turned the dive when the drysuit started leaking, she would have made it out OK. She was too goal oriented, and tried to complete her survey, in spite of the flooded suit, in 50 degree water.

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*MIGHT* have made it out OK. Those are all speculations based on the fact she had a rip in her drysuit. The rip *might* have been made when her body was recovered as she was in a tight slot. The accident analysis inferred that the drysuit rip might have been a major contributing factor, and perhaps it was. There's no way to know for sure.

Bobby,

That was a wonderful story and a great thing you did. I hope others would do the same.

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Originally Posted by Bobby

...It took over an hour to get them to admit that they were not cave or mix certified and another hour, as well as an offer to buy lunch, to convince them to scrub their dive...

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Hope they paid for lunch! You may have saved their lives Bobby.

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Originally Posted by LarryAnta

Hope they paid for lunch! You may have saved their lives Bobby.

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If I were inclined to make a wager, I would bet that Bobby bought lunch.

What would Bobby do if he caught some Bikini Cave Divers...

http://youtu.be/0OgUjupHvUE

... this lunch is for your safety

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Originally Posted by Garth

What would Bobby do if he caught some Bikini Cave Divers...

http://youtu.be/0OgUjupHvUE

... this lunch is for your safety

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When you're serious about your craft... It's obvious. Can't touch this .... ;-)

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Originally Posted by Jax

<--- 'nother newbie.

I find the analysis on these boards to be most helpful. Every single one (except P Turner) seems to involve a tiny misjudgement, exacerbated by complacency, arrogance, and sometimes just plain stupidity.

The list of names would not do as much as the constant analysis that discovers this same trend over and over.

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Just to be fair, I don't think you can generalize all of the fatalities like this. For examlpe, Bill McFaden was not complacent, arrogant or stupid. I suppose you could say it was a tiny misjudgement to dive air at 210' on an exploration/mapping dive, but that was the normal practice on 15 May 1988 and was being done every day/weekend for many, many years.

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Originally Posted by FW

With Roberta, it was mostly poor decision making. If she had turned the dive when the drysuit started leaking, she would have made it out OK. She was too goal oriented, and tried to complete her survey, in spite of the flooded suit, in 50 degree water.

You can add "goal obsession" to the list of things that cause well trained cave divers to have accidents.
To list a few:
Sheck Exley, trying to set a depth record.
Steve Berman, trying to finish a map
Roberta Swicegood, trying to finish a survey.
Ron Simmons, trying to finish a map.

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Amen to that. I should have turned the dive when my suit first started to flood. Good thing I was on the Peanut Line.

What about Rob Parker?

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Originally Posted by Tracydr

What about Rob Parker?

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Diving without sufficient gas for the depth/length of the cave.

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Originally Posted by FW

Steve Berman, trying to finish a map
Roberta Swicegood, trying to finish a survey.
Ron Simmons, trying to finish a map.

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KInd of food for thought for one thing that has always concerned me,and that is the practice of surveying on your way out.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

KInd of food for thought for one thing that has always concerned me,and that is the practice of surveying on your way out.

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I doubt it was because they were surveying on their way out. I think it's because they are surveying and either concentrating on their notes/sketch or trying to trying to maximize the work done on a single dive. I don't think that relates to whether it was "on the way out" or "on the way in" surveying a laid line. My 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by Tracydr

What about Rob Parker?

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Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

Diving without sufficient gas for the depth/length of the cave.

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Rob had also been out of diving for some time and was not "dive fit" - he was trying to complete some work started by the late Rob Palmer who had recently died on a deep air dive in the Red Sea*.

I think Forrest summed it up when he expressed the view that "goal obsession" (exploration fever) clouds one's judgement which then leads on to the rest. Certainly this is the case with the experienced friends I've lost - there had been other factors but in the end the victim had forgotten that "there is nothing in this cave worth dying for"

* another example of what I'm getting at.

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Originally Posted by Duncan Price

Rob had also been out of diving for some time and was not "dive fit" - he was trying to complete some work started by the late Rob Palmer who had recently died on a deep air dive in the Red Sea*.

I think Forrest summed it up when he expressed the view that "goal obsession" (exploration fever) clouds one's judgement which then leads on to the rest. Certainly this is the case with the experienced friends I've lost - there had been other factors but in the end the victim had forgotten that "there is nothing in this cave worth dying for"

* another example of what I'm getting at.

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Thanks for the additional perspective on R Parker.

I'd heard various thoughts on R Palmer. One was that he backrolled off the boat in sidemount and his tank(s) might have flipped up and whacked him in the head and knocked him silly. The other was that he had a buoyancy incident. Some people zoomed in on the "deep air" concept, but it might not have ever gotten to that point. Maybe you know more Duncan.

Whatever, while I think it's a good idea to learn from the mistakes, and maybe accidents, of others, we're always just guessing at the problems.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

KInd of food for thought for one thing that has always concerned me,and that is the practice of surveying on your way out.

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we always survey in.
I could never wrap my brain around why people do it on the way out. especially in deeper caves on open circuit.

while I'm doing tieoffs etc. it leaves plenty of time for number two man to collect the survey. more often than not, doing it on the way out will lead to the survey not getting done and having to go back anyway...

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

we always survey in.
I could never wrap my brain around why people do it on the way out. especially in deeper caves on open circuit.

while I'm doing tieoffs etc. it leaves plenty of time for number two man to collect the survey. more often than not, doing it on the way out will lead to the survey not getting done and having to go back anyway...

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It was Sheck Exley that started the idea of surveying on the way out. It came from the "dry" cave practice of surveying as you go, but they don't have to lay line, or worry about saving gas for exit. What else is different about Sheck's method, from what Berman and Simmons did, was Sheck only did the exit survey on line he had just laid. Berman and Simmons were re-surveying previously laid line. Previously laid line should be surveyed on the way IN, not going out. Exley's practice isn't really safe, unless you turn well before thirds.

FWIW, the person with the right idea is still alive. Andrew Ainslie said "always have double the gas needed to exit from any point". If you turn at thirds, and don't dally, that fits his concept. It will also work for surveying, if you are real sure you know where you are, and how much gas is needed for exit from there. It is a little hard to calculate, if you are preoccupied doing something else, like surveying.

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Originally Posted by FW

FWIW, the person with the right idea is still alive. Andrew Ainslie said "always have double the gas needed to exit from any point". If you turn at thirds, and don't dally, that fits his concept. It will also work for surveying, if you are real sure you know where you are, and how much gas is needed for exit from there. It is a little hard to calculate, if you are preoccupied doing something else, like surveying.

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Yeah, I never really understood what a big deal Andrew's thing was. Until.... I started working in caves in Cozumel. They're kinda maze-y. I didn't like the way the project had divers go scoop the cave, then "let" the rest of the team survey, but it is what it is. Anyhow, we'd go in and have a certain part of the cave as our objective and you'd keep poking down various tunnels, surveying, until it was time to go. And then it made perfect sense. Have at a very minimum, twice the gas it would take to get out. If it took 400 psi to get to the start of the branching. Then saving 1000 would be a minimum goal. Because the caves were so shallow, you could really rack up some U/W time and get a lot done, and still be plenty safe.

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Originally Posted by FW

It was Sheck Exley that started the idea of surveying on the way out. It came from the "dry" cave practice of surveying as you go, but they don't have to lay line, or worry about saving gas for exit. What else is different about Sheck's method, from what Berman and Simmons did, was Sheck only did the exit survey on line he had just laid. Berman and Simmons were re-surveying previously laid line. Previously laid line should be surveyed on the way IN, not going out. Exley's practice isn't really safe, unless you turn well before thirds.

FWIW, the person with the right idea is still alive. Andrew Ainslie said "always have double the gas needed to exit from any point". If you turn at thirds, and don't dally, that fits his concept. It will also work for surveying, if you are real sure you know where you are, and how much gas is needed for exit from there. It is a little hard to calculate, if you are preoccupied doing something else, like surveying.

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Right. We're also talking about solo guys.
You have to start making compromises when u do these things solo

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

Right. We're also talking about solo guys.
You have to start making compromises when u do these things solo

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Compromises?

Or making plans for eventualities?

Seems like as soon as one compromises safety, it all goes downhill from there. . .

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Originally Posted by Jax

Compromises?

Or making plans for eventualities?

Seems like as soon as one compromises safety, it all goes downhill from there. . .

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For instance if you're laying down line in a buddy team it's quite trivial for number two to collect the survey data on the way in and avoid these sorts of situations. Additional gas complications from surveying out etc.

But if you make the decision to go it alone for whatever reason you're going to have to make a compromise somewhere. Survey on the exit or come back and do an additional dive etc. maybe some of you can lay line and survey at the same time but I know I'd have a hell of a time trying it. Especially anywhere deep.

Not that it applies to Steve and his ginnie map...

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Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

I'd heard various thoughts on R Palmer...Maybe you know more Duncan.

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Probably no more than has been published on the internet. Much of it speculation and conjecture. I didn't know Rob that well but have spoken to others that did. He was quite the "personality" in everything he did, and I guess that caught up with him.

As far as surveying goes - I have usually surveyed in and frequently carried a cylinder reserved for task which I could breathe to empty with enough gas elsewhere to return safely. More recently I have taken to surveying on closed circuit because of the lessening of time pressure and lack of bubbles to disturb the visibility. Of course, when you are exploring then the desire might be to lay line in and survey out and the thought might be that you used more air to lay line in which if you then turned on thirds would allow extra to survey back. This is a dangerous assumption.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

I don't know that a list of trained cave divers or technical divers who died tech/cave diving would really prove anything. It almost seems like a list you'd use to justify NOT getting training.

Wouldn't the size of the cave diving award lists be a better example of why we get training, along side a list of untrained fatalities?

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+1.

A list of long forgotten deaths could be used to justify the elimination of access to various sites.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

I don't know that a list of trained cave divers or technical divers who died tech/cave diving would really prove anything. It almost seems like a list you'd use to justify NOT getting training.

Wouldn't the size of the cave diving award lists be a better example of why we get training, along side a list of untrained fatalities?

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I think the two lists together would make a powerful statement, but would be counter-productive in my set of circumstances. I believe pointing out an award system to these folks would further encourage the type I'm talking about to unreasonably push limits. Not only will they be worshiped by their friends for being "cave explorers", they could get an award to show off as well.

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Originally Posted by diveongas

+1.

A list of long forgotten deaths could be used to justify the elimination of access to various sites.

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Because there's not enough recent deaths to close systems?