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Found this in the big room just short of the 1100' arrow. I'm not sure how long it has been there, we found it Wednesday evening (7/24). Hopefully someone can do some detective work as we all know this is completely needless and unexceptable. Very sad indeed.
http://youtu.be/OnYX0J_9tPc
Examination of the registration list at Ginnie ought to yield a very short list of suspects. It's to be hoped that criminal prosecution under Florida's cave vandalism law will follow.
Starting and ending when? We don't know when this person did this. I hope you are right that it is easier than I think it will be.Quote:
Originally Posted by MORGAN
Ending at the time it was found, and working backwards. If it's close to the line or in a place where it would be hard to miss, probably someone on this board or another Ginnie regular will be able to say, "I dove there on this date, and it was not there." That would give the time frame. How many people named Will, William, etc. registered during that period? Hopefully one.
You are right - without an admission of guilt or a witness, it will be hard to prove that a specific person did this, especially if there is more than one Will registered during the time frame. And then there's the possibility that the miscreant came in by boat and didn't register. But my detective lieutenant wife has gotten a lot of convictions in cases which started with less evidence than this.
Perhaps at the least, the idiot can get a phone call from the police or maybe Ginnie management saying, "We know that you were diving at Ginnie during the time period when someone defaced the cave with your name. That is a violation of state law, we take it seriously, and we will be doing whatever we can to identify the offender and file criminal charges." That might at least scare them enough to keep them from doing it again.
Or not...idiots are something there's no shortage of.
Erased
I dont remember seeing that when there in march. Some people just dont get it.
Saw the same thing yesterday in a cave here in the DR people who do this should be punished very harshly. Absolutely unacceptable!!!
i complained about that when i saw it on july 6th 2013, sorry guys it's been there for a while now. shameful
Assuming, of course, that "Will" is the actual perp's name... it could be someone/something totally different. The only thing we know for sure is that whomever did this had enough gas to get them that far in, and out again.Quote:
Originally Posted by MORGAN
OP: Did you witness any other damage (i.e. fresh fin/hand prints, drag marks, scratches on the walls & Goethite) that might indicate a person that never had cave training (i.e. OW diver), or very poor cave training?
As you can see in the video, the area on the floor definitely has some other damage. It's hard to say if it was caused at the same time or not. It looks like the many, many other scarred up places in Ginnie, just with the added graffiti. It's my opinion that the person has at least some overhead training. I do not think it's a reasonable assumption that an OW diver could have swam 1100' into a flowing cave, down a jump thats not extremely obvious, and wrote their name in the mud and made it back out. Although stranger things have happened I suppose. Very poor cave training however, seems relatively common unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by mag3
I am seeing a 'WiLLM' in the video ?? There appears to be other initials above the WillM print !
I didn't do it. And my name is will.
I saw this yesterday on my dive, I was disappointed/disgusted too se such vandalism.
To the person(s) responsible!
The thing you need to do is come forward, be prepared pay the diving expenses of someone with skills and training like Michael Angelo to restore the area to its originality and settle up with the owners of the site if they have a grievance. You will also have to surrender or forfeit your cave diving certifications for a period of time, until retrained to the satisfaction of the Conservation Officers of the NSS-CDS and NACD.
In the previous incident at Cow, the person responsible was caught, admitted to doing the damage and was prosecuted in the Florida Court systems. The individual paid over $8000.00 after all was said and done. This amount represented legal fees, court costs, damages and restoration.
Your "dive buddy" may be considered an accomplice and will likely be charged and face a similar scenario.
I, or someone already looking into this will learn who you are and will seek the same prosecution with permanent revocation of your cave diving certifications, forfeiture of gear etc. by court order in addition to the monetary losses you will sustain.
If you or your dive buddy wish to avoid the legal system, retain your confidentiality, respect and integrity and at some point rejoin the cave diving community you may PM me and I will get the process started for you.
So I could carve your name in a clay bank and you'd owe $8000+ in fees?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Hill
Consider me skeptical, but without having any eye witnesses, the volume of people who dive Ginnie on a regular basis that aren't even tracked (think night diving on annual passes), I don't see how anyone would get convicted.
I suppose people give up their rights every day in talking with law enforcement-- maybe we'll get lucky and the person here will be dumb enough to do it as well.
I dont know why anyone would think the person who did it is a member of cdf and is going to pm you their guilt.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If the idiot is stupid enough to trash a cave, then he/she may be stupid enough to make the call. One can only hope!Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
I find it hard to believe that anyone that did this is cave certified
That was my point, earlier. It seems like something someone without any cave training (and, thus, no respect for caves) would do. I knew, even well before my cave training began, to respect such environments. It's why I suspected an OW diver and was asking about other marks or scars (which I do see on the video). While it might seem difficult for an OW diver to make it all the way to that part of Ginnie and back, perhaps they had a scooter (which they might have trained on in OW). It's why I was asking about "drag marks" or other damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
It's probably not hard to get back that far when you are flutter kicking. Just an assumption of course.
I tend to agree. Maybe he'll go to vortex soon and the whole saga will "self-resolve".Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This reminds me of these standardized tests questionsQuote:
Originally Posted by mag3
Cave Divers are to cave damage what CCR divers are to ___________ deaths.
(Answer: Medical)
I don't think anyone outside the cave community will believe that even though OW deaths in caves have gone to near zero (while cave trained deaths have risen), that all this damage is being done by untrained OW divers who magically aren't dying in caves any more. Wouldn't you admit that's a REALLY odd coincidence, especially at places that don't allow OW divers to have lights?
Come on guys. Are ya'll REALLY trying to suggest that an OW did that? You're joking...right?
Isn't that spot in the Big Room more than 1/2 way around the circuit?
(but I am just guessing here)
That can be a long circuit etc.
Just my two cents.
I.E. Could an OW diver even get that far?
Just sayin...
Thanks!
Jeano
I would argue that anyone that's of a mindset to disrespect a cave to that extent would have no problem at all disrespecting the rules in regard to lights, as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
I'm not saying for sure that it is an OW diver (or that it's not a cave trained diver)... like everyone else, I have no idea who could have done it. But I can only wonder why a diver with any amount/level of cave training, and who worked as hard and invested as much time/$$$ into their training as I have, would risk it all to do something so FAS as this. Furthermore, I wonder what cave instructor (or any SCUBA instructor) would risk their reputation to certify such a person.
Of course, it could have been someone with no formal SCUBA training at all. But like the OP, I'd have difficulty believing anyone could get that far into/out of Ginnie without some kind of training/experience in (at least) buoyancy control, if nothing else. Hence, my initial suspicion of an OW diver.
If it does turn out to be someone "cave certified," they should lose all their cave certs permanently... (Life without parole).
From an art history point of view Graffiti has existed in all parts of Human Society since man first learned to scribe markings with a charcoal stick. The lowest form of graffiti has been the tag. The marking of your territory with the spelling or symbol of your name. It has been found in every part of all human society because it comes from our lowest base instincts. Most societies have frowned upon it but it still exists. Even modern "Graffiti Artists" disdain tagging as low life gangland mentality. My point being is to say this can't be done by a cave diver is not logical, cave divers have tagged in the past (Cow Springs). We as a community frown upon this behavior but we frown upon alot of things that still happen. Giving that it also doesn't in and of itself mean it wasn't an open water diver.
lowest base instincts? I doubt that. circular logic here. it's bad by our current standards in the "cave community" (and may very well be bad in other communities too) therefore is a low baser instinct. and Instinct? nope. instinct is done by every member of a species without intent or will. actually, there are no instincts. reflexes yes, instincts no. At one time social scientists (in USA of course) had listed over 100 "baser human instincts" and the "need to wage war" was one of them. We've since given up on the term instinct as meaningless (scientifically, hasn't yet trickled down to the lay public). Turns out reflexive behavior defines all the stuff once consider candidates for "instincts."
Just because some behavior occurs among all or most groups of humans in history does not make it low, base, or instinct.
Personally, I don't even think it's bad. Some people do it, nearly everyone does it at one time or another, most "grow up" and see the immature nature of the behavior, some take a bit longer than others. For my money WILLM is not from the USA, not cave trained in the USA, on a cave diving trip to Florida, is male, young, and this particular dive was his pinnacle cave dive to date.
skip
As an example, the Ben person who was diving Vortex wasn't cave trained was he? Un-certified cave divers are cave diving, how many I have no idea, but it's happening. If a person show up with the proper gear, they get in the water and dive.Quote:
Originally Posted by PfcAJ
And that didn't last long.Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
The simplest answer is often the correct answer. For an OW diver to make it ~1000' back into a high flow, 85ft deep cave, dodge ginnie security, make a nav decision or two, and make it back out, seems somewhat improbable when compared to a cave-certified ####### going back there and doing it. We've already seen cave certified divers intentionally damage clay in the past, and with more and more people getting certified, it stands to reason that the chance of an ####### slipping through and getting certified will approach 1.
Just get a DNA sample from the condom cath they left on the picnic table. Case closed.
I moved all the Wiki posts to a new thread in the Fill Station.
OK it's not base instinct, its a reflex. It has to be done by every member of a species to be instinct. However it's no big deal anyway cause we all have done it one time or another. It's all beside the point. To say a behavior that has been done by every aspect of human society for thousands of years, can't be done by a cave diver because we know better is absurd. If you don't believe that it's in every aspect of society to some degree look in any public park, viaduct, train stations or vacant building in America. It's all around us. It's even glorified as a voice of freedom in at least 5 Presidential Library. Particularly given the fact there has been documented cases of cave divers doing it. Can an open water diver make it 1100 feet thru a restriction and a jump sure, it possible, but more likely a cave diver. Either way neither group should be ruled out in any investigation if there is any investigation at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by skip
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo
Most likely a spontaneous action/reaction brought on by some form of elation, desire for recognition. Narcosis probably played a role! Unlike "DIC" that struck in different systems and on different media (mud, clay and limestone) this marking celebrates "WILL"'s celebration of his crowning achievement, a glory marker. The Florida Statue calls it VANDALISM and that's the one "WILL" - will face prosecution when caught. To call it artwork or graffiti is a mistake.
Food for thought...where does one draw the line?
Researchers refine history of Pictograph Cave State Park
July 31, 2013 12:00 am • By Brett French
4
Related Video
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Laser mapping Pictograph Cave State Park
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A new chapter is being written in the history of Ghost Cave at Pictograph Cave State Park.
Tuesday, Jim Busse of Montana State University Billings said he believes he photographed a charcoal inscription on the cave’s wall dated 1812 – only six years after William Clark passed by on his way back from the Pacific Ocean.
“I’m very excited about it,” Busse said as he stood at the base of the cave wall looking up at the site.
Busse’s work is part of a cooperative project that is taking a more comprehensive and detailed look at the state park.
“We have a multi-pronged goal,” said Kelly Dixon, an associate professor of anthropology at the University of Montana. “One is to help Montana State Parks better document the landscape, as well as help them document elements of the (Works Progress Administration) work here — an archaeology of the archaeologists.”
While the WPA workers excavated Ghost and Pictograph caves over four years, starting in 1937, they camped out in Ghost Cave, living there year-round. While camped in the cave, some of the 20 workers wrote on the cave walls — inscriptions that are now considered of historical value.
Busse was one of several people climbing up into Ghost Cave to photograph the inscriptions. He estimated he took about 1,000 shots while scrambling up the rock face. The reason Busse had to climb to photograph the writing is that the WPA workers removed about 40 feet of dirt from the cave during their excavation. The inscriptions Busse was photographing were 8 to 10 feet above what was once the floor of the cave.
“The one thing that’s really baffled me is that they didn’t document the pictographs here,” said Jarret Kostrba, park manager.
Instead, all of the documentation of cave drawings was done at the larger Pictograph Cave. That site, too, is getting a fresh look.
In the 1930s, WPA artists sketched the 102 rock art pictographs on butcher paper and assigned a number to each. Some of those pictographs have since faded and no one knew where on the cave wall they were located. But as MSUB professor Tim Urbaniak delved into the WPA’s historical documents, he found several sheets of graph paper that contained numbers and showed locations of the rock art.
Unfortunately, the numbers don’t correspond to the ones on the butcher paper drawings. So Gary Worthington and Megan McCrea were working to cross-reference the numbers and place them on the graph paper. When finished, Urbaniak will be able to place all of the artwork on a 3-D digital photographic scan he made of the cave showing their placement.
“We jokingly say they’re doing paper dolls,” Dixon said, as Worthington and McCrea placed tiny photocopies of each of the drawings on a photocopy of the original numbered graph paper.
“But Gary and Meagan are literally recreating Pictograph Cave as we cannot see it now,” Dixon said. “They are doing something integral to the longer-term interpretation of the site.”
Meanwhile, Urbaniak is using his 3-D digital camera to scan the entire Dry Gulch area where the caves are located, putting everything into a much larger perspective for future archaeologists.
“Over time things change, but we’re in the position to digitally reconstruct what we are doing here,” Urbaniak said.
“Should something happen here to harm the integrity of the site, this 3-D map will exist in perpetuity,” Dixon said.
She sees such work as the future of archaeology.
Compare that to the excavation that took place starting in the 1930s at what is now a state park. The excavation was the largest of its kind ever undertaken in Montana. The work resulted in the removal of about 30,000 artifacts, some of them quite unusual, like fragments of baskets similar to those made by the Fremont people in Utah and tools made from caribou antlers. Some of the artifacts dated back roughly 3,000 years.
“It was really a crossroads,” Kostrba said. “It shows how it was used by a number of different groups.”
Sara Scott, cultural resources coordinator for Montana State Parks, said that in Ghost Cave alone, 600 artifacts were removed in the first 7 feet of soil.
“The assemblage that came out of this cave was amazing,” she said, noting it was occupied later in time.
Even without recovering ancient spear points or basket fragments, Busse was still excited by what he and his fellow researchers had recorded.
“When you’re allowed to climb up there, it’s literally amazing,” he said. “The study of rock art and petroglyphs is so fascinating to me.”
Read more: http://billingsgazette.com/news/loca...#ixzz2ajWDlwVQ
I met three Mexican cave divers at Orange Grove one day (while DEMA was in town). Three very respectful, very polite men. We discussed the passage a bit, mainly depth and flow, as those were their main concerns coming from Mexico to Florida. They entered the water just minutes before we did. That was long enough for them to pick a large, soft limestone rock in the basin, and decorate it with a celebration of their country and ours. While I found it to be appalling, they apparently thought it was acceptable. I believe the tagging we see in caves is cultural, and not (in general) of malicious intent. I believe education is the key, and not prosecution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenwood_60
Sometimes the only way to an education is aprosecution....most cave divers have been taught that they are not to defacethe caves deliberately. An errant hand or foot happens, to sign your name isdeliberate.
I agree that some of it likely is cultural. Some other cultures have very different ideas about things like graffiti, littering, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenwood_60
An important part of cave training is (or should be) transmitting the values of the cave diving community regarding conservation. It can be hard to tell during a class whether or not the student really gets it, though.
Perhaps an orientation to Florida's cave vandalism law should be part of training, at least in Florida.
Cultural? What Cultures???
Have any of you ever been in Jennings Cave?
It was a party cave for UF students for decades. There is hardly a square inch of cave wall that doesn't have something carved in it.
Who's cultural heritage to we have to blame for that?
The UF student party culture, of course. Not too different than the old Telford Spring party culture. Groups develop their own cultural norms, for good or bad. In some cases the norm is to vandalize and destroy things and make a mess, but it's acceptable or expected within that group. That doesn't mean the rest of us think it's OK.
I myself advocate stiff penalties for vandalizing public property or other peoples' property, especially caves. I grind my teeth every time I hear the term, "graffiti artist". If you're doing graffiti on your own property, OK, it might be art. If you're doing it on someone else's property without their permission, it is criminal vandalism, irrespective of its artistic merits.
Mike
I agree Mike. Although "public property" is a contradiction.
Well, it's property owned by the public, like a state or national park.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenwood_60
It would appear that GA park rangers have a different attitude than FL park rangers :roll:
This was posted on TAG Net. It is a listserver for "dry" caves in the TN, AL, and GA area.
1) Cave vandal in jail
By: Allen Padgett (Lafayette, Georgia)
ON_ROPE@windstream.net
In the early morning hours of Thursday July 25 an act of cave vandalism
took place in Pettyjohns Cave Georgia. A group of cavers from New York
were coming out of the far reaches of the cave. When they reached the
top of the breakdown mountain in the big room near the entrance they
encountered a swastika painted in bright orange spray paint. It was not
there when they entered the cave. Nearby there was more paint and more
paint. On their way toward the entrance they encountered two people. A
24 year old man with a spray can in his hand and a young female
accompanying him. The cavers exited the cave and reported the vandalism
to police. The police contacted Ranger Tim Gilbreath who met with the
cavers and gathered as much information as possible. He then went to the
scene but the vandals had left. In addition to the cave vandalism he
discovered the same graffiti at a nearby overlook.
Ranger Gilbreath contacted two members of the Pigeon Mountain Grotto to
assist his investigation by taking photos in the cave of the graffiti.
The graffiti consisted of the two swastikas , the "N" word in one place,
several identical sets of lovers initials a few 'beware' and 'danger'
inscriptions. Criminals are not very smart. The two graffiti artist
filled out a cave card prior to entering the cave so the Ranger had
their names which matched the initials painted on the cave walls. A
quick check on facebook found a photo of the two of them together which
matched the description given by the New York cavers.
Ranger Gilbreath then went to the girls address and interviewed her. The
juvenile confessed to involvement. Next Ranger Gilbreath interviewed the
young man who also admitted involvement. After consulting with the
Walker County District Attorney Ranger Gilbreath obtained warrants for
the young man and filed a juvenile complaint on the young woman. They
are both charged with felony criminal damage to government property,
misdemeanor littering, and the man is charged with failure to obtain
GORP permit. The cave is owned by the state so graffiti in it is a
felony. The man has been arrested and is currently sitting in the Walker
County Jail awaiting a hearing.
On Friday evening after the incident the Pigeon Mountain Grotto held an
'emergency' clean up trip to Pettyjohns to remove all of the offensive
spray paint. Eight members spent about three hours cleaning up the mess
prior to the weekend traffic to the cave. The grotto takes the incident
seriously and will assist the New York cavers in obtaining the NSS
Vandalism Deterrence Reward. There is actually a poster describing the
reward on the kiosk near the cave entrance. Ranger Gilbreath worked
tirelessly to pursue this case to resolution and deserves our heartfelt
thanks for his hard diligent work.
Safe cavin,
Allen Padgett
Perfect! Good work on the part of the New York cavers for reporting it, and the ranger for following up.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
The comment about criminals not being very smart reminds me of an article in the Florida Wildlife magazine a couple years ago about two idiots who shot a deer out of season and posted pictures (time and date stamped) of themselves and the dead deer on Facebook. They were promptly arrested. My retired game warden father got a big kick out of that one.
Very nice to see
Idiots ...Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
1. For doing vandalism and
2. Doing it in Walker County
Perhaps a reward in this economy would be helpful!
Ken,as far as I am aware the CDS still has a cave vandalism reward fund leading to the prosecution of someone committing vandalism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Hill
Ken, Michael Angelo suggested I let you know about some graffiti at Manatee I noticed. There is a rock probably less than 100 inside that head spring that looks like it is getting tagged and written on. I am assuming this may be from free divers (strong ones!) given where the rock is and the direction of the hand prints. Also at Manatee in Catfish there is quite a bit of writing on the walls on the ledge at about 20 feet or so. Mostly just looks like scratching off the algae but still pretty unattractive.
--Scott
I reported to the rangers about one recent one in catfish .. Kris Ohio is what was marked into the wall .. They said they were gonna look into divers who had registered to see if anything matched up . I never heard of any updates on the issue .
I am sure the above advice is going to work out well..... I highly doubt anyone is going to send you a message proclaiming their guilt. The person responsible for this most likely knows it will be next to impossible to prove anything on him/her if they have half a brain.... However, I hope you are able to catch the responsible party and achieve the satisfaction that it brings whether it be prosecution or public humiliation, Vandalism in any form is uncalled for!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Hill
It will go a long way for the cave diving community to demonstrate responsibility when dealing with law enforcement and prosecutors. It will also not easily allow the vandal, when caught to say "sorry I didn't mean to do it." Without a surrender there can be no genuine remorse. We can make an argument to have a heavier fine and seize their dive gear, deny certifications and demand restoration and restitution. Keep in mind the "buddy" is equally guilty and there may come a day that a falling out will bring out the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by contender
My comment on Manatee and other area is OW divers going into caves and causing damage reflects badly on the cave community. The Park Managers may have a saying that may be true "few divers, few problems, many divers many problems, no divers- NO problems." Cave divers need to take the high road in any public discussion and lets hope our access does not suffer.
+ 1Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Hill
I agree with what your saying, but there is an assumption that there was a buddy....the vandal may well have been a solo diver!!!!! Remorse may come into play if it was a glory marker type situation, but with the publicity of the last episode in Cow, I would be willing to bet that it was a direct act of vandalism. If it was intentional then remorse is not going to overwhelm the person, which simply means you are going to have to work a little harder to catch them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Hill
Ditto here at the University of California, Santa Cruz campus. There are two easy caves, well known to the students for party locations. NSS grottoes regularly clean up their beer cans and other debris. These are not mainstream cavers. Culture? Animal House!Quote:
Originally Posted by hunabku