Training Time Expirations on certificates: Too restrictive or Just Right?

I am an Intro to Cave diver, and I have a question on the Expirations of Cave diving certificates. I have heard two schools of thought:

1 - too many divers would certify at Intro to cave, and just keep diving to greater levels (i.e., not staying within the limits of training)

2 - too many divers don't dive enough, and their skills become rusty

Now, I have a third 'school of thought':

3 - Some divers don't have access to caves so they cannot hone the skills they need to progress for the next levels.

My instructor (thanks, Rob!) sees enough of my FB bull**** . . . er, I mean postings, to know I am getting out to cave country and practicing my skills. However, I am not getting out there enough to become proficient for Apprentice. (IMO)

My question is, should the expiration be longer? Or is the current year (for those agencies that expire in a year) length good enough, and let the instructors deal with the outliers (like me)?

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Originally Posted by Jax

I am an Intro to Cave diver, and I have a question on the Expirations of Cave diving certificates. I have heard two schools of thought:

1 - too many divers would certify at Intro to cave, and just keep diving to greater levels (i.e., not staying within the limits of training)

2 - too many divers don't dive enough, and their skills become rusty

Now, I have a third 'school of thought':

3 - Some divers don't have access to caves so they cannot hone the skills they need to progress for the next levels.

My instructor (thanks, Rob!) sees enough of my FB bull**** . . . er, I mean postings, to know I am getting out to cave country and practicing my skills. However, I am not getting out there enough to become proficient for Apprentice. (IMO)

My question is, should the expiration be longer? Or is the current year (for those agencies that expire in a year) length good enough, and let the instructors deal with the outliers (like me)?

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Just curious, how many cave dives do you have since intro? Specifically, what skills do you feel are not ready yet for Apprentice, but are acceptable at the intro level?

The skills are the same for Intro and Full Cave, it's primarily a situational awareness difference as navigation gets more difficult.

I think a year is plenty of time. If you don't feel comfortable taking the next class after a year, then a day with your instructor to renew your current certification would not be a bad thing IMO.

NSS-CDS and NACD intro to cave certs never expire.

CDS Basic Cave expires after 18 months. I think that time is adequate.

IANTD doesn't expire either.
I don't have an issue with a 12 month or 18 month expiration.

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Originally Posted by Jax

Now, I have a third 'school of thought':

3 - Some divers don't have access to caves so they cannot hone the skills they need to progress for the next levels.

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You can practice cave diving skills in other places besides caves. All of our cave diving so far has been in Florida, and we live in Vermont. When Tracy and I were Intro divers preparing for further training, we would go to a local pond that has a very silty and oozy bottom, run a line a couple of feet off the bottom about 200 feet from a rock pile to a sunken log, and practice laying line, tying in reels, using arrows, doing jumps off our main line, etc. We practiced picking up and dropping deco bottles and stages, and we also dove in rivers to improve our skills in flow.

We still do "skills & drills" dives between cave diving trips. Then when we get to cave country we take it easy on our first few dives and scrape the rust off our technique before doing anything more ambitious. When we finished full cave (NSS-CDS, with Michael O'Leary) we had 40-some cave dives and probably an equal number of practice cave dives in OW.

Mike

NACD Intro in Doubles expires after 12 months. You can pay for a single tank card before that year is over.

I assume the politics behind these sort of expirations are motivated by instructors looking to increase the number of students they certify. Regardless of the stated safety reasoning... "let's ban guns, for the kids."

Jax, just take apprentice. IMHO, each class was easier than the previous one. I find my skill improve the most when I'm pushed beyond what I thought I was capable of.

I don't buy into "can't practice skills because I'm not near the caves." A person can run reels and practice swimming 4 inches off the bottom without silting anywhere. Every time I get wet is a chance to hone skills. I do a lot of item recoveries at the lake. Gives me a chance to slowly descend and to hover for up to a half hour while looking for stuff.

IMHO all certifications should be permanent. There is no reason why every cave diver has to be full cave. Some divers only want to make short runs into tourist caves. Some divers would be quite happy with just a single jump and have no desire to do multiple jumps or circuits. We don't ask all open water divers to become master SCUBA divers. Why should we ask all cave divers to be full cave?

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Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

NSS-CDS and NACD intro to cave certs never expire.

CDS Basic Cave expires after 18 months. I think that time is adequate.

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TDIs intro does not expire on OC or CCR.


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Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

NSS-CDS and NACD intro to cave certs never expire.

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PSAI Intro to Cave doesn't expire either.

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Originally Posted by allen

IMHO all certifications should be permanent. There is no reason why every cave diver has to be full cave. Some divers only want to make short runs into tourist caves. Some divers would be quite happy with just a single jump and have no desire to do multiple jumps or circuits. We don't ask all open water divers to become master SCUBA divers. Why should we ask all cave divers to be full cave?

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I fully agree. And as to the "1 - too many divers would certify at Intro to cave, and just keep diving to greater levels (i.e., not staying within the limits of training)"...this logic is scary. Why, as an instructor, would you certify anyone at any level if you don't trust them to have the self-discipline to dive within their limitations? If I train an OW diver, I expect (and MAKE PERFECTLY CLEAR!) that I expect him to stay out of caves and deep water. Why should I suddenly distrust a student (and expire his cert) just because he's at a certain level of cave training?

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Originally Posted by MORGAN

You can practice cave diving skills in other places besides caves. All of our cave diving so far has been in Florida, and we live in Vermont. When Tracy and I were Intro divers preparing for further training, we would go to a local pond that has a very silty and oozy bottom, run a line a couple of feet off the bottom about 200 feet from a rock pile to a sunken log, and practice laying line, tying in reels, using arrows, doing jumps off our main line, etc. We practiced picking up and dropping deco bottles and stages, and we also dove in rivers to improve our skills in flow.

We still do "skills & drills" dives between cave diving trips. Then when we get to cave country we take it easy on our first few dives and scrape the rust off our technique before doing anything more ambitious. When we finished full cave (NSS-CDS, with Michael O'Leary) we had 40-some cave dives and probably an equal number of practice cave dives in OW.

Mike

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Mike is right, practice cave skills in OW. Shallow is better, it forces you to have greater buoyancy control. The bigger question is, "Is there any OW in AZ"? :-D

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Originally Posted by FW

The bigger question is, "Is there any OW in AZ"? :-D

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Just them little cement ponds in peoples' back yards.... :)

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Originally Posted by Greenwood_60

NACD Intro in Doubles expires after 12 months. You can pay for a single tank card before that year is over.

I assume the politics behind these sort of expirations are motivated by instructors looking to increase the number of students they certify. Regardless of the stated safety reasoning... "let's ban guns, for the kids."

Jax, just take apprentice. IMHO, each class was easier than the previous one. I find my skill improve the most when I'm pushed beyond what I thought I was capable of.

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My plastic double cylinder intro cave card has no expiration on it.

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Originally Posted by syntaxerrorsix

My plastic double cylinder intro cave card has no expiration on it.

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You got certified to dive plastic double cylinders? WOOOO!! I wanna try that ;)

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Originally Posted by sskasser

You got certified to dive plastic double cylinders? WOOOO!! I wanna try that ;)

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Oh no you don't I need to wear 90 pounds of lead and use a drop weight.

I talked to two people that switched to NAUI because NSS apprentice expires. Only in cave diving does a cert expire. This rushes individuals to complete full cave before it cost more (by having to re-cert). So now you have bunches of full cave divers only been in caves for two years. Your inviting what you have out there. And having doubles expire at intro is ridiculous. Now I have to go buy a single harness because some trip operator said my doubles expired?

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Originally Posted by Seanmeboy

I talked to two people that switched to NAUI because NSS apprentice expires. Only in cave diving does a cert expire. This rushes individuals to complete full cave before it cost more (by having to re-cert). So now you have bunches of full cave divers only been in caves for two years. Your inviting what you have out there. And having doubles expire at intro is ridiculous. Now I have to go buy a single harness because some trip operator said my doubles expired?

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The same argument could be said for the week long crash courses offered. I think 18 months is an acceptable time limit and the student should be fully aware of this when they start the course progression. I view it as college course work while working towards your degree.

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Originally Posted by syntaxerrorsix

My plastic double cylinder intro cave card has no expiration on it.

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This card?

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Originally Posted by syntaxerrorsix

Seems as if I wasn't given the correct information. They were CDS cards. Nothing to see here... move along.

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:)

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I talked to two people that switched to NAUI because NSS apprentice expires.

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I have heard of this too.

If I am interpreting the NAUI standards for Cave I correctly it "certifies" cave divers to the same level as the NSS-CDS does at the Apprentice level requiring two less training dives.

I can understand why this type training is appealing to some divers.

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Originally Posted by Seanmeboy

I talked to two people that switched to NAUI because NSS apprentice expires. Only in cave diving does a cert expire. This rushes individuals to complete full cave before it cost more (by having to re-cert). So now you have bunches of full cave divers only been in caves for two years. Your inviting what you have out there. And having doubles expire at intro is ridiculous. Now I have to go buy a single harness because some trip operator said my doubles expired?

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There are almost no differences between Cave 1 and full cave (more jumps and limited deco allowed, but that's it). I don't really understand how someone can not be ready for full cave, but be ready for Cave 1 through NAUI.

This is why I went with agencies that didn't expire their Intro/Cave1 cards. My instructors/mentors advised me at the time I got mine not to be in any rush because there is a LOT of cave to see on gold line and within intro/cave1 limits alone. Miles and miles of it.

They all said once I ran out of gold line or wanted to go farther in the cave and further in my training then I could take the next step.

I was able to do a LOT of diving within these limits and hone my skill before I wanted to take the next course.

I remembered specifically asking about the expiration to make sure my cards wouldn't have those as at the time I had planned to stay Intro/Cave1 for a while before continuing on.

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Originally Posted by Greenwood_60

This card?


:)

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Nope, this one.

http://pbr370.photobucket.com/albums...g?t=1373990498

When an NSS-CDS Basic Cave card expires it is a simple process to renew. I do it by going on one cave dive and I don't recall ever charging any fee for this. I feel sure any NSS-CDS instructor would be glad to help Basic cave divers renew their certification is the same manner.

CorvetteJoe -- Clearly it would not have been a problem for you since you dive caves a LOT and have access to instructors who are willing to dive with you.

There is/was nothing dastardly, financial or Machiavellian regarding the decision to have these cards expire at the end of 18 months, as some have suggested.

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Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

I have heard of this too.

If I am interpreting the NAUI standards for Cave I correctly it "certifies" cave divers to the same level as the NSS-CDS does at the Apprentice level requiring two less training dives.

I can understand why this type training is appealing to some divers.

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We chose NAUI solely because of the positive relationship we had with the instructor and the quality of training he provides. We had no clue the difference in number of dives. It really didn't matter. If we sucked on the dives we did he would have failed us without a second thought regardless of if we did two more or two less dives. I wonder if some of the concerns lately over training has to do with the multilevel approach to training (cavern/intro, apprentice, full) as one instructor may let things slide thinking the problem will be fixed in the next course. I think all students should have an instructor that will fail them without a second thought.

We later learned the pros to the NAUI cert which are more leniency with performing jumps and gas reserves and no expiration. We are the type of divers that are in no hurry to jump certs. We can enjoy great diving with the cave1 cert and not feel pressure to move up. This in turn builds stronger skill sets and experience. With my work schedule and my want to be exceptionally proficient as opposed to racking up certs, the NAUI system worked for us. The other side of the coin is that there are zero to heros that are immediately allowed to perform minorly complex navigation(2 jumps without a circuit) and to dive to thirds. That could lead to potential problems, but I doubt it has so far. I know of several people that had to dive to 1/6s due to their cert that pushed the speed that they moved through their certs just so they could dive thirds like their dive buddies, which isn't doing them any positive service.

I have one CDS card that says Intro 2011 and one that says Basic 2012. Are they not the same thing? Intro says restricted to single cylinder with no expiration. The Basic card says expires in 18 months perhaps this is just the doubles portion, it does not specify. I don't know now. My apprentice card was paper and I was told it expires in one year. If I do not get full cave in 18 months from basic or one year from apprentice does that mean I will go back two steps -be back to single cylinder intro after that time? I understand that your and all instructors will work with you. I never want to go back to 1/6 doubles or single though. Push comes to shove I want to dive at the level I am certified at. Its not like I am going to forget how to attach my tanks to me or do a jump or two.

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Originally Posted by Seanmeboy

I have one CDS card that says Intro 2011 and one that says Basic 2012. Are they not the same thing? Intro says restricted to single cylinder with no expiration. The Basic card says expires in 18 months perhaps this is just the doubles portion, it does not specify. I don't know now. My apprentice card was paper and I was told it expires in one year. If I do not get full cave in 18 months from basic or one year from apprentice does that mean I will go back two steps -be back to single cylinder intro after that time? I understand that your and all instructors will work with you. I never want to go back to 1/6 doubles or single though. Push comes to shove I want to dive at the level I am certified at. Its not like I am going to forget how to attach my tanks to me or do a jump or two.

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• You will never have to dive single tanks again, unless you want to.
• Intro is by definition a single tank cert. Never expires.
• Basic by definition is for double tanks. Expires after 18 months.
• Apprentice expires after 18 months.

Up here in Buffalo, we don't have open water to dive in for about 4-5 months of winter.

I always liked practicing in the shallow end of the pool, (while my local shop was running dive classes in the deep end).

Working eyes closed, or mask off in the shallow end without touching the bottom or surface was good practice for cave diving. Running reels between shot bags, S-drill, deploying and stowing equipment, and just plain frog kicking.

I try to get a few days of pool time in before each dive vacation to brush "a bit" of the rust off my skill level.

:roll:

I just love how this went from a discussion on expiration to the How-What-When-Where of skills practice.

Yes, I do all my skills in other water. Yes, Forrest, there is OW in Arizona; they are either cement ponds or no / low vis mudholes. ;)

When I say, IMO, I am not ready for apprentice, please understand that is IN MY OPINION. It is not about what others think. I have my own high standards for what / where I should be. This includes having dived different cave environments, which I have not - IMO.

*I think* (warning, inexperienced newbie opinion) that if one meets someone with a full cave card, one has a certain level of expectation of abilities. I want to NOT be the person that others think: How the hell did that person get full cave?

Clearer?

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Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

I have heard of this too.

If I am interpreting the NAUI standards for Cave I correctly it "certifies" cave divers to the same level as the NSS-CDS does at the Apprentice level requiring two less training dives.

I can understand why this type training is appealing to some divers.

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Then I believe you are interpreting NAUI standards incorrectly. NAUI Cave 1 is not the same as Apprentice through the NSS-CDS. It probably lies somewhere "in between" the NSS-CDS intro. and apprentice levels, and requires a minimum of 10 dives in at least 3 different systems. NAUI's cave programs were not designed to "mirror" or equal certifications through other agencies such as the CDS or the NACD.

NAUI Cave 1 allows 1/3s and 2 navigational decisions but no deco. Apprentice allows limited deco. I think why some divers choose to get certified through NAUI is because their certs. do not expire and that they don't want to feel rushed to move onto the next training/certification level.

Someone could easily make the argument that NAUI has higher standards with regards to their cave training than other agencies. For example, NAUI requires AN/DP, at least 100 logged dives, and at least 20 logged cave dives at the Cave 1 level as prerequisites in order to enroll in their Cave 2 class. I dont believe the NSS-CDS has these requirements, as per standards since i know a few people who went straight from cavern through full cave with the CDS (zero to hero).

For whatever it's worth, if your learning to fly, have taken and passed your written, I believe you have one year to complete training before your written expires and you have to re-take it. It's been a while, but that's how I remember it anyway.
Once you have your license, if it's been 90 or more days since you have flown, your required to make three take-offs and landings before your allowed to carry passengers.
I believe if you just want to stay a student pilot and fly around locally by yourself, your license expires periodically and you have to be re-certified by an instructor.
I agree with the expiring certificates, if nothing else it's a motivator to receive a higher level of training and not stagnate at a lower level.
Long ago when I graduated from flight school, I was told that all I had was a license to learn, now go out and learn. I saw my full cave card as the same, I'm still learning, and nowhere near where I want to be proficiency wise, but I'm getting better :)

Jax,
You don't want William to be full cave before you are, do you?

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Originally Posted by DL348

Then I believe you are interpreting NAUI standards incorrectly. NAUI Cave 1 is not the same as Apprentice through the NSS-CDS. It probably lies somewhere "in between" the NSS-CDS intro. and apprentice levels, and requires a minimum of 10 dives in at least 3 different systems. NAUI's cave programs were not designed to "mirror" or equal certifications through other agencies such as the CDS or the NACD.

NAUI Cave 1 allows 1/3s and 2 navigational decisions but no deco. Apprentice allows limited deco. I think why some divers choose to get certified through NAUI is because their certs. do not expire and that they don't want to feel rushed to move onto the next training/certification level.

Someone could easily make the argument that NAUI has higher standards with regards to their cave training than other agencies. For example, NAUI requires AN/DP, at least 100 logged dives, and at least 20 logged cave dives at the Cave 1 level as prerequisites in order to enroll in their Cave 2 class. I dont believe the NSS-CDS has these requirements, as per standards since i know a few people who went straight from cavern through full cave with the CDS (zero to hero).

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NAUI Cave is a different approach than NSS-CDS, NACD and the rest traditional cave programms. NAUI programs is a more GUE alike program. Which mean more DIRish; Hogarthian/NTEC, helicopter turns, back finning, etc.

NAUI Cave II is also something different: It is like a traditional Full Cave + a stage diving program. So it somethink more than full cave. Thats why they have request these request for CAVEII.

Cave diving from zero to hero is in my opinion for the avid consumer - student, not for the conservationalist cave diver. If someone cant dive with proper techniques to protect the cave should not dive at all there. Thats why it is important to take time, build experience and enjoy the underwater cave and progress naturaly. Cave diving should not be a fast food recreational activity, for agressive weekend wariors. Again its only my opininon.

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NAUI requires AN/DP

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Should both of those classes be required for diving in shallow caves, for example in Mexico where the water is 40 feet deep and everyone dives on air?

I see absolutely no problem with expiration dates. Also find it foolish that one would think they have to finish cave before they are ready for fear of their card expiring. I was an apprentice diver for almost a year and a half. I simply went on another dive with my instructor and they re-signed me off for another apprentice card. Then when I felt I was fully ready I continued my training.

I personally feel that if you cannot find a way to practice your skills and continue to learn and hone your skills and maybe cave diving is not for you.

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

For whatever it's worth, if your learning to fly, have taken and passed your written, I believe you have one year to complete training before your written expires and you have to re-take it. It's been a while, but that's how I remember it anyway.
Once you have your license, if it's been 90 or more days since you have flown, your required to make three take-offs and landings before your allowed to carry passengers.
I believe if you just want to stay a student pilot and fly around locally by yourself, your license expires periodically and you have to be re-certified by an instructor.
I agree with the expiring certificates, if nothing else it's a motivator to receive a higher level of training and not stagnate at a lower level.
Long ago when I graduated from flight school, I was told that all I had was a license to learn, now go out and learn. I saw my full cave card as the same, I'm still learning, and nowhere near where I want to be proficiency wise, but I'm getting better :)

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Once you do get your airman's license (private, commercial, ATP, etc.) it NEVER expires (flight instructor does need to be renewed every two years), but there are certain currency requirements for certain operations. Then again, you are operating in a heavily used airspace system with other traffic and may be carrying passengers that are not licensed and can not jump in and take over the controls in case you screw up or die. In a cave you are primarily responsible for yourself. You may impact a team member, but they should be equally trained and responsible. This is quite different from the responsibility that an aircraft pilot assumes. Also, airman licensing has legal status while cave ratings do not (maybe entrance to some parks).

Expiring cave ratings are just a way to fuel the card mill and to try to limit liability in some cases. Once a diver is trained (with or without a card since a card does not necessarily indicate the quality or completeness of training), it IS the person's responsibility to know the limits of their abilities with regards to currency of skills, health, environmental factors and to operate within those limits.

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Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

Should both of those classes be required for diving in shallow caves, for example in Mexico where the water is 40 feet deep and everyone dives on air?

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My opinion really isn't all that important but in your specific example, it certainly wouldn't hurt to have AN/DP under your belt before enrolling in a Full Cave/Naui Cave 2 class regardless of where it's located (Mexico vs. Florida, etc.). I will say this though, German Yanez requires Adv. Nitrox and Deco. Procedures certs. as prerequsites before taking a Full cave class with him. He's located down in the Yucatan Peninsula/Cozumel area and is apparently in agreement with NAUI as far as requiring these 2 courses before someone progresses with their cave training.

I believe he is a NSS-CDS instructor also and might know a thing or two about cave diving in Mexico. :)

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

Jax,
You don't want William to be full cave before you are, do you?

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I will congratulate him happily!

I do not judge myself against others, only against the standards as set by others, and that set by me.

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Originally Posted by syntaxerrorsix

Nope, this one.

http://pbr370.photobucket.com/albums...g?t=1373990498

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This appears to be something new. When I was certified with "Double Cylinders - Intro to Cave" (07/2010), I was issued a laminated paper card (I have it in front me right now) that has an expiration date of 1 year after the date of certification. The only "permanent" plastic cards I have are "Cavern" and "Full Cave."

Is there no expiry date on the back of this card?

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Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

Should both of those classes be required for diving in shallow caves, for example in Mexico where the water is 40 feet deep and everyone dives on air?

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I had to do deco on my last dive in Mexico diving 32% at Jailhouse. I don't know that it's a terrible idea to require it, or include a short lecture in Full Cave about basic, o2 deco.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

I don't know that it's a terrible idea to require it, or include a short lecture in Full Cave about basic, o2 deco.

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Agreed 100%. I do it and a lot of other CDS instructors do it too.

I would love if somebody or bodies would do some stickies on the various ways to become cave certified. Perhaps a chart would be good to compare the different certifications.
Since I will be researching this over the next year or two, while I convalesce,I'd like to make sure I go the best route for me. Not the easiest but the best.
I'm not sure where I'll live in the next year but I do know that I'll be undergoing some orthopedic surgeries on my knees and possibly ankles. It will be awhile before I can dive caves. In the meantime, I'll study, swim and do the best I can to get ready.
Hopefully, I'll return to dive my dream. I really want to dive cables, specifically Mexican caves. I've had the dream for awhile. Had a few detours along the way, my current detour will be my worst.

There are not to many certifications that have any real meaning these days that do NOT expire.

Seriously. Think about it...

Most of my IT and other certifications that are worth a damn all expire without CE credits applied on an annual basis. Why? (Think about this one)

Would that same concept be worthwhile to apply to an activity where complacency and lack of proficient skills can harm or kill someone?

Academic degrees do not expire. If I needed to, I could get a job on the strength of my 25 year old master's degree in chemistry. I have taken 2 additional courses since then, but neither was mandatory.

I have to agree with Allen...and with his earlier statement. I know divers that are perfectly happy doing Intro Level diving or Apprentice Level, etc. Why "force" them to move on by expiring their card? Maybe I'm missing a good reason for doing this.
And I think encourages some of these divers to take classes they would not or should not have taken.

Definitely agree with aquadog. Plenty of diving at CDS apprentice level to do. I was dismayed when told (before class) that it expires in one year. If my apprentice card expires and my basic card (restricted to 1/6 doubles expires in 18 months) is already expired the next card back in line says "intro restricted to single cylinder." (Told no card available for side mount class). Please, I know instructors will dive and re cert you for free. But it is a little insulting after attaining apprentice level (sidemount) to get busted back.

Question: After one year, under this scenario, without contacting an instructor, What kind of dive can I do (Penetration, depth, configuration) and to stay within my training.

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Originally Posted by Seanmeboy

Question: After one year, under this scenario, without contacting an instructor, What kind of dive can I do (Penetration, depth, configuration) and to stay within my training.

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Do you mean training, or certification? Your training is not going to expire for any reason other than lack of use.

Right. certification.

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Originally Posted by Seanmeboy

Question: After one year, under this scenario, without contacting an instructor, What kind of dive can I do (Penetration, depth, configuration) and to stay within my training.

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Originally Posted by Seanmeboy

Right. certification.

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You revert to the highest level for which you have permanent certification. For example (assuming the NACD/CDS training path), if you took "Cavern" diving and passed that, it will be "permanent." If you then took "Intro to Cave" with "Single Tank" only, that will also be permanent. If you're taking "Intro Doubles/Basic Cave," that will expire after 12/18 mos. respectively (or it used to). If you don't move on or don't renew it, you would revert to "cavern" or, you could arrange to get an "Intro - Single" cert, which is permanent. Or, you could get your Intro-Doubles/Basic renewed for another 12/18 mos. Or move on to "Apprentice."

If you don't renew the "apprentice" certification, you would revert back to the permanent certification you last had (either "cavern" or "Intro Single") and the limitations thereof. But if you are already at "apprentice," why not finish it and go to "full cave?" There isn't much left to do after apprentice (i.e. complex navigation - circuits/traverses, etc.)... At that level, it's more about "situational awareness."

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Originally Posted by Tegg

There are not to many certifications that have any real meaning these days that do NOT expire.

Seriously. Think about it...

Most of my IT and other certifications that are worth a damn all expire without CE credits applied on an annual basis. Why? (Think about this one)

Would that same concept be worthwhile to apply to an activity where complacency and lack of proficient skills can harm or kill someone?

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There is a difference here - IT changes so rapidly that your knowledge can be out of date within a year.

Just what cave knowledge expires?

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Originally Posted by Seanmeboy

Definitely agree with aquadog. Plenty of diving at CDS apprentice level to do. I was dismayed when told (before class) that it expires in one year. If my apprentice card expires and my basic card (restricted to 1/6 doubles expires in 18 months) is already expired the next card back in line says "intro restricted to single cylinder." (Told no card available for side mount class). Please, I know instructors will dive and re cert you for free. But it is a little insulting after attaining apprentice level (sidemount) to get busted back.

Question: After one year, under this scenario, without contacting an instructor, What kind of dive can I do (Penetration, depth, configuration) and to stay within my training.

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This is interesting. So, your into / apprentice card expires, and you are busted back to single-cylinder cavern . . . . and that single cylinder is to make you safer? This really doesn't make sense.

That is exactly what the cards indicate. Full cave. Back to singles. or keep renewing. I can work with that, however I think going from side mount doubles (apprentice which allows more depth and navigation than NAUI Cave I) to singles Intro is a bit too restrictive (the point of this thread) IMHO, in light of the fact that it technically technically nullifies a bought and earned side mount class.

It is my other occupation that drove me to this.


God I need the river to down

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Originally Posted by Jax

This is interesting. So, your into / apprentice card expires, and you are busted back to single-cylinder cavern . . . .

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Or single-cylinder "Intro" if that's what you had (or could obtain)...

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Originally Posted by Jax

and that single cylinder is to make you safer? This really doesn't make sense.

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Not so much to "make you safer," but (in theory) to keep you from "getting into more trouble/danger" by limiting your penetration distance into the cave. The further you go in, the further you have to go to get out in an emergency, and the more gas you need, overall. By the time you are ready to take on "full cave," hopefully, you also have the skills, the control, and the situational awareness required to make an emergency egress, if needed, at those penetration distances.

I can see where this might not make sense to those who have dived doubles as "tech/deep" divers in OW for a long time (or CCRs) and are just starting cave training. That's a conversation I think you'd need to have with your instructor. FWIW, I had completed AN/DP and was diving doubles before I began my cave training. I was allowed to do all of my cave training in doubles (Cavern, Intro, etc.). For "cavern," it really doesn't matter because of the 200ft. linear penetration and "natural ambient light" limits. You're probably not going even to reach "1/6th" on that. But you can easily do so with "Intro/Basic." Thankfully, I practiced enough and was able to get to CC enough to complete "apprentice" before the "Intro/Doubles" expired, and "full cave" before apprentice expired.

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Originally Posted by Seanmeboy

That is exactly what the cards indicate. Full cave. Back to singles. or keep renewing. I can work with that, however I think going from side mount doubles (apprentice which allows more depth and navigation than NAUI Cave I) to singles Intro is a bit too restrictive (the point of this thread) IMHO, in light of the fact that it technically technically nullifies a bought and earned side mount class.

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Well... it *may* nullify it for "overhead/cave" environments, but I don't think it can nullify it for OW, right? Was it a "cave" side mount class, or a "general" side mount class? I believe (at least for NACD/CDS training), you must be "full cave" before being able to take the cave oriented "side mount" specialty classes. And, as I stated previously, I was able to dive doubles (BM) during my cavern training and thereafter. If you were to revert to cavern, I don't see why you could not do so in doubles, side mount or not. But, again, that's a conversation for you and your instructor.

I do not know if it nullifies it for OW. No matter what the card says if it is expired.....After the the sidemount cave class, I was able to upgrade my intro(restricted to singles cylinder) to basic (restricted to 1/6 doubles) but it -the basic card, expires in 18 months. I was told that CDS has no stand alone "side-mount cert". Therin lies the IMO unfair restriction because After I got apprentice to remove the 1/6 of doubles restriction it was explained that it is a paper card that expires in one year with sidemount checked under "completed using" (other check is backmount). It is my understanding that cavern to full cave can be performed with doubles of either configuration. at any rate I now have two cards indicate doubles but they both expire leaving me back to intro single or at least that is what the cards technically indicate. I did not mention that I was dual certified NACD but they have no permanent card (a stand alone sidemount/ doubles config) indication. Of course a good instructor would like to test your ability with sidemount by challenging er training you in a smaller than regular place but this training is time sensitive because intro allows no such restrictions. I find it odd that your c-card (valid/current)does not indicate your highest level of experience.

I would point out that I am committed to CDS and that this is not a gripe. Just pointing things out in case any improvements need be made to maintain increase participation in this great organization. end of rant

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Originally Posted by mag3

This appears to be something new. When I was certified with "Double Cylinders - Intro to Cave" (07/2010), I was issued a laminated paper card (I have it in front me right now) that has an expiration date of 1 year after the date of certification. The only "permanent" plastic cards I have are "Cavern" and "Full Cave."

Is there no expiry date on the back of this card?

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No, just my vital stats and the instructor name and number.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

I had to do deco on my last dive in Mexico diving 32% at Jailhouse. I don't know that it's a terrible idea to require it, or include a short lecture in Full Cave about basic, o2 deco.

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Outside of North Florida I don't know where anyone would go to get an O2 fill without an AN card. So I agree, if deco and O2 are to be used in training then AN/DP should be taught.

Nothing I was taught in Cave held a candle to my AN/DP course.

my wife did cavern/intro a few years back... she was issued a basic w/doubles (1/6's) that expired after 1 year. About 1.5years ago we took the overhead sidemount class. She is wanting to move forward to full cave certification but still feels she needs more experience and enjoys diving at her current level. The expired card hadn't been an issue until we showed up at Ginnie one day (we rarely dive there) and tried to sign in to dive... they would not acknowledge her basic card and would only allow her to dive sidemount in the ballroom since the basic card was expired and all she could be given credit for was cavern. Very frustrated we left and went to dive peacock... hadn't been back since. We spoke with our overhead sidemount instructor and he issued her another NSS basic card w/sidemount and no expiration. problem solved, but still super annoying.

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Originally Posted by IowaCaveDiver

We spoke with our overhead sidemount instructor and he issued her another NSS basic card w/sidemount and no expiration. problem solved, but still super annoying.

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Double check with her instructor because there is no such certification through the NSS-CDS as Basic Cave Card with sidemount that has no expiration. Nor for that matter do we issue a Basic Cave Card with sidemount that has an expiration date.

I have been printing the certification cards for the NSS-CDS for 6 or 7 years.

I stand corrected... the new card looks different than her old one... the small print on the back states "expires 18 months after issue date"... dang, now i'm annoyed again.