Is this really acceptable?

Do you find it acceptable for a loosely defined set of divers to subvert the normal process for obtaining a research permit for a cave where they are knowingly interfering with a current and ongoing research project by another team?

Does it make a difference to your answer if the offenders were offered to join the current project and opted out?

What if they have told their prospective members it is not OK with their "board" for their members to also participate in the other project?

Is this approach really acceptable?

Can we add a third option that says "I don't have enough information to form an opinion"

Not everything is black and white. I'd like to answer yes, but there's probably more to the story and I would like to be open to changing my opinion based on the facts.

-Jon

Sure. All's fair in love, war, and cave diving.

Seriously, though, what are you talking about?

Did you get scoop'd?

It's ok to be vague, we all know what you are talking about. Crap, what are we talking about?

My guess is it has something to do with this http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...eeded-in-Texas

The ASA has some research/exploration projects going on in Texas. Some of which I believe require a permit (probably Jacobs Well). A call was put out for any interested diver provided they joined the ASA.

Pure speculation would be that some group of diver (possibly part of a competing agency) wanted to dive the hole without being a part of the project. Just a pure guess though.

Was that written in English?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by graepaep

My guess is it has something to do with this http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...eeded-in-Texas

The ASA has some research/exploration projects going on in Texas. Some of which I believe require a permit (probably Jacobs Well). A call was put out for any interested diver provided they joined the ASA.

Pure speculation would be that some group of diver (possibly part of a competing agency) wanted to dive the hole without being a part of the project. Just a pure guess though.

---

Wow, you're good. People can't get along. So, they create another organization and push through a project in the same hole with at least one significant overlapping deliverable. This would have been so easy to avoid if the board members on this new team didn't have a personal issue with on of ours. So, now we have twice the traffic in a sensitive cave.

Yes, there's venting here on my behalf, guilty as charged. This is not my personal issue. I just want to dive.

I hear your frustration,but this theme isn't unique. How about Wakulla 2 vs WKPP in the mid 90s-wow what a hail storm of rants on the old tech list.

I don't know anything about this particular situation, but in general it's considered bad form to poach on someone else's exploration project, as long as the project is actively being pursued.

In a situation where little or no active exploration is going on, and a permit process is just being used to keep other people out, application for permits should be accessible to everyone.

Mike

If they are doing it legally, its fine.

ASA doesn't own the cave.




ASA would do the same thing at Wakulla given the chance, or anywhere else. Atleast I would vote that way as an ASA member.

Learn to work around each other in a safe manner.

Poor form, guys.

Given that I have no idea what the politics are, seems like the more divers in any cave, the merrier. All caves are "sensitive" . I just dove a piece of ginnie that no one sees, and it was pristine... Makes you realize how screwed up the rest is. So either no one dives it and it stays pristine, or anyone dives it, IMHO.

http://scotterb.files.wordpress.com/...pg?w=446&h=427

Why, I can't believe you would let those lilly livered varmints poach your water rights in the great state of Texas. I would blast them out of their bushwacking, tin horned, long eared skins.

Here are my final thoughts on this issue after some sleep.

No one was ever blocked from diving the cave. In fact, most of the known divers on this new team have been invited to this exact cave to dive. So, going to the permitting county government and requiring a separate permit for this new team just made more visible an already sensitive issue. Why can't you work together with a team that already has a permit? In this case the answer is that at least one of the new board members has a personal issue with both of the current teams permitted in the well. Now the county looks at this as the cave diver community as a whole cannot get along. It's one thing to be pissed off at another diver in private. This incident has just made it public and the ramifications I see going forward are the lack of willingness on other agencies and land owners to allow access to the handful of caves here.

Second issue sparked the more heated debate. A newer cave diver confided in other divers this new group and asked whether it would be acceptable for him to dive with both groups. In the email I received from this diver he made it sound like a painful decision that he could no longer dive with both groups. He misunderstood some of what he was told. However, there are other conversations that are unclear and helped him come to this conclusion. This is a childish mentality that still exists. If I was told this "you can't dive with them if you want to dive with us". Buddy I'm not diving with you. And don't call me and lecture me about how you feel so slighted by this person to justify your actions. I will just hang up.

-David

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cavemn

Now the county looks at this as the cave diver community as a whole cannot get along.

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This is somehow a new concept?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cavemn

Here are my final thoughts on this issue after some sleep.

No one was ever blocked from diving the cave. In fact, most of the known divers on this new team have been invited to this exact cave to dive. So, going to the permitting county government and requiring a separate permit for this new team just made more visible an already sensitive issue. Why can't you work together with a team that already has a permit? In this case the answer is that at least one of the new board members has a personal issue with both of the current teams permitted in the well. Now the county looks at this as the cave diver community as a whole cannot get along. It's one thing to be pissed off at another diver in private. This incident has just made it public and the ramifications I see going forward are the lack of willingness on other agencies and land owners to allow access to the handful of caves here.

Second issue sparked the more heated debate. A newer cave diver confided in other divers this new group and asked whether it would be acceptable for him to dive with both groups. In the email I received from this diver he made it sound like a painful decision that he could no longer dive with both groups. He misunderstood some of what he was told. However, there are other conversations that are unclear and helped him come to this conclusion. This is a childish mentality that still exists. If I was told this "you can't dive with them if you want to dive with us". Buddy I'm not diving with you. And don't call me and lecture me about how you feel so slighted by this person to justify your actions. I will just hang up.

-David

---

A utopian socialist society sound great right up until you start to apply it to the human race and its not sustainable, history has proven that beyond any doubt. The Rodney King "can't we all just get along" is a joke for a reason.

We are only human, the good, bad, ugly and unpredictable, expecting so many people to get along in a sport dominated by aggressive, ego centric and goal orientated people is never going to happen, lets face fact the "average" person thinks cave diving is just flat out insane. The anxiety that my shi**y go pro video generates from a living room couch is really really funny.

What does all of this mean....there's always going to be competition, life will be unfair and good people will get screwed from time to time but if you are prepared to be competitive, put in the work, pay the price, cultivate the relationships and do exactly what the competition does just a little better you will get the same results and more, its not if its when.

If you want access to controlled of prohibited sites figure out how groups have accomplished that same goal and do what they did.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

This is somehow a new concept?

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I have a dream....but I keep waking up to the same insane reality


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

WET, the Water Explorers of Texas, is a non-profit dive team focused on exploration and dive services in Texas. The team is comprised of 16 members. The team has been building for the past six months for the purposes of bringing collaborative divers together to provide talents and resources on multiple projects.

WET has no policy preventing divers from joining or participating with other teams in addition to WET.

Regarding the Jacob's Well project. We applied for the permit through correct channels gaining our permit through both the landowner and Hays County, the parties responsible for granting permission. The county views all teams as providing valuable services. SMART was one of the first organized groups to go in. Then, JWEP. Then, ASA gained access. Then, WET.

Feel free to get in touch with me if you would like more information or just want to chat. Jidol@uwDesigner.com

-Jennifer Idol

Why dont people just talk to each other instead of arguing on a public forum. Seems childish. Obviously there is a common team member so theres no excuse as to why contact was impossible. Forget can we all just get along. How about can we all just act like adults


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by uwDesigner

WET, the Water Explorers of Texas, is a non-profit dive team focused on exploration and dive services in Texas. The team is comprised of 16 members. The team has been building for the past six months for the purposes of bringing collaborative divers together to provide talents and resources on multiple projects.

WET has no policy preventing divers from joining or participating with other teams in addition to WET.

Regarding the Jacob's Well project. We applied for the permit through correct channels gaining our permit through both the landowner and Hays County, the parties responsible for granting permission. The county views all teams as providing valuable services. SMART was one of the first organized groups to go in. Then, JWEP. Then, ASA gained access. Then, WET.

Feel free to get in touch with me if you would like more information or just want to chat. Jidol@uwDesigner.com

-Jennifer Idol

---

David Baker does not own the land. Hays County does. I presented the ASA project to the county board. thats the process. According to the county manager David Baker presented your project to the board to stir the pot. Get your facts straight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rddvet

Why dont people just talk to each other instead of arguing on a public forum. Seems childish. Obviously there is a common team member so theres no excuse as to why contact was impossible. Forget can we all just get along. How about can we all just act like adults.

---

I agree!

The "enemy" in TX are the rules against cave diving. All interested parties should unite and work together to get some laws changed.

The same is true in Florida! The attitude that "my group" is better/safer than your group stinks. It confuses state officials, and their easiest solution is to require permits to dive some sites. Then other groups get jealous and sit back and complain, or apply for a parallel permit. Neither action helps solve the real problem.

Thank you Forrest!! You hit the nail on the head. The exact problem in Texas is just as you stated. Just reference the big BS storm on here in 2009 because I went and dove a public site. Funny thing is the one complaining was the same one who was holding JW for himself. He and all is associates who prefer a private playground. The founder of WET is one one these people. He was invited by myself to join our diving many times prior to and after the formation of ASA in 2008. His choice was to accept invitations from any and every source he could that allowed him to dive. Personally this is fine by me. It gets him diving and he can gain experience from many divers considering he was a newbie back then. His problem is he needs to be the star and G3I if you will. This this the crappy mentality that keeps him in hot water!! He always runs his mouth and knows it will create tension when the other group is out for a private playground setup.

Sure I have been accused of hijacking access. I'm being accuse of it now. But if opening sites for public access from a group of weenies is hijacking then I am guilty!!! But it is exactly why there are 9 new sites opened to public diving in Wakulla County. Had The wet founder just played along instead of needing to be "somebody" that nobody gives a crap about, you may very well have the ability to dive in Texas right now. The problem is he can't keep his mouth shut and play along with the movement. Instead he starts another group so as to lead more confusion in the powers that be. What will now end up happening is the well will be closed to diving to everyone! He could have joined ASA and taken a chance that his bad name and reputation would have been overlooked by the dive team but he chose to to try to leverage a guarantee he would be placed on the dive team if he paid. Sorry but there are no guarantees in life especially when you stab so many in the back. I tried to help him many times even before he started his new group 4 months ago but he decided my advice wasn't what he needed. So now you have it another group in Texas continuing the fight for the only dive site in Texas. Yes I know there is Good Enough and a few others on private land but most don't have the kahunas to go dive GE in fear of public reprimand and the others won't ever open because of people and groups like WET and the original group headed by the one who filed his complaint on here in 2009!

Matt you hit the nail on the head on SB as well. Diving will close at JW!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FW

The "enemy" in TX are the rules against cave diving. All interested parties should unite and work together to get some laws changed.

.

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Remove TX and add MO and a few other places,because the statement rings true

Steve,

I am posting this as a member of the Aquatic Science Association.

We've only met via a handshake, at the award ceremony for Edd. You seemed very well spoken there and I had a good impression of you. I'm compelled to say that I do not have such a positive impression of this latest post. I don't know the person you're speaking of well and haven't met him in person yet. I know very little of the history to warrant all of the animosity-- knowing the little of cave diving politics that I do, it seems to be a familiar story as several others, just with different names of those involved.

I will say that I feel the public criticism of a person's character, when outside readers can have no idea who or what you're referring to, could have been thought out more carefully. On the basis of the person I saw in you at the ceremony, I really would have expected more grace. Although you profess to open doors, the sort of language you use here about someone in such a public setting can do nothing but close them. If this is how you spoke to this person at the time, I really couldn't blame him for not feeling like playing along.

Much has been made of the supposed public outing of difficulties in cooperating within the cave diving community-- first by David, now by you. I would ask you both to reflect how much you've done to make this protest glaringly public. What began as a private correspondence between David and I has been dragged out for all to see. I hope you can see the irony in publicly complaining about it being public.

Much has also been made in these posts about WET not allowing divers to participate in other projects. This is due to a misunderstanding started by me, the 'newer cave diver' in David's last post here. I was being overly careful, imagining landmines to step around in that team, probably owing to so many stories I've heard of cave politics. Now that the various members of WET know about my concerns, they've all assured me they have no problem with it, with various examples of other groups that they themselves dive with.

I've had no such experience on the ASA side so far. Despite the various criticisms David has posted concerning the WET team prohibiting participation with another team, I seem to be completely cut off on the ASA side. Despite having paid my dues to be a full member of ASA, and despite having publicly and privately apologized for the misunderstanding, and both publicly and privately renewing my offer to help with the project at JW, at this point I feel decidedly unwelcome in the ASA. There has been no reaction to my offer to help out. There has been no private communication at all with me since the forum posts began, and the only result of any private communications I've sent is that they show up in the next forum post. Prior to completely breaking off communications, there have even been implied threats that as a member of WET, I would be shunned by members of the community in Florida, people I know well enough to be incredulous at the thought of them concerning themselves in such a way over this issue.

It could be that high emotions over this matter have prompted ASA board members to react on a personal level, without due consideration that you are in fact representatives of an organization made up of members. I myself am one of those members, and I've expressed my sincere support for the organization's goals, and as far as I'm aware I've done nothing to compromise my good standing as a member. As my representatives, I hope you and David will take a breath, consider your responsibilities to a wider circle than your personal feelings, and do your best to navigate through the complicated issues you've shouldered in assuming those responsibilities. This may mean cooperation or at least peaceful coexistence with those you don't like or those who have a different vision.

I really hope everyone can come to a civil understanding about this, or at least keep the embers from bursting into open flame. The realist side of me says this hope isn't shaping up very well so far, but I'll hang on to the hope regardless.

Best regards,
Eric

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speleodiver

Thank you Forrest!! You hit the nail on the head. The exact problem in Texas is just as you stated. Just reference the big BS storm on here in 2009 because I went and dove a public site. Funny thing is the one complaining was the same one who was holding JW for himself. He and all is associates who prefer a private playground. The founder of WET is one one these people. He was invited by myself to join our diving many times prior to and after the formation of ASA in 2008. His choice was to accept invitations from any and every source he could that allowed him to dive. Personally this is fine by me. It gets him diving and he can gain experience from many divers considering he was a newbie back then. His problem is he needs to be the star and G3I if you will. This this the crappy mentality that keeps him in hot water!! He always runs his mouth and knows it will create tension when the other group is out for a private playground setup.

Sure I have been accused of hijacking access. I'm being accuse of it now. But if opening sites for public access from a group of weenies is hijacking then I am guilty!!! But it is exactly why there are 9 new sites opened to public diving in Wakulla County. Had The wet founder just played along instead of needing to be "somebody" that nobody gives a crap about, you may very well have the ability to dive in Texas right now. The problem is he can't keep his mouth shut and play along with the movement. Instead he starts another group so as to lead more confusion in the powers that be. What will now end up happening is the well will be closed to diving to everyone! He could have joined ASA and taken a chance that his bad name and reputation would have been overlooked by the dive team but he chose to to try to leverage a guarantee he would be placed on the dive team if he paid. Sorry but there are no guarantees in life especially when you stab so many in the back. I tried to help him many times even before he started his new group 4 months ago but he decided my advice wasn't what he needed. So now you have it another group in Texas continuing the fight for the only dive site in Texas. Yes I know there is Good Enough and a few others on private land but most don't have the kahunas to go dive GE in fear of public reprimand and the others won't ever open because of people and groups like WET and the original group headed by the one who filed his complaint on here in 2009!

Matt you hit the nail on the head on SB as well. Diving will close at JW!!

---

It really seems as though this should have been handled alot better :/

Eric,

If you are feeling left out then it is because you haven't shown up for any projects. Being that ASA Is international and not just a group of Texas divers looking for a hole close to home because they lack funds to drive to Florida or get to Mexico, makes for plenty of opportunity for you. I suggest you take a break and a long hard look at why you feel you may be cut off in Florida. Obviously you have been told this by someone close by. While you're at it read the post from Forrest one one time and really soak it in. If you feel you don't understand politics of diving in Texas it I because you don't! Just like the leader of wet who pulled this same attitude of "just wanting to dive", you are building your own reputation. You will have to live with your decisions not me. Therefore I will not afford you the same advice I have to others in a public forum, as I have come to realize it is a waste of my time. However, you only need to look at how many teams the leader of wet as been a part of in the last year and then look at how many he isn't a part of now. The whole attitude of "you can't dive with other groups"stems from the team he just left. Trust me I tried to dive with those guys for a long time. I obviously wasn't good enough until they realized I was and then I was slammed in public. Perhaps the person you haven't even met yet can explain to you why he joined their team just 9 months ago and why he thought he needed a guarantee if he joined ASA. Unlike you he wants the sure thing. At least you took a risk and I will guarantee it will pay off for you if you put in the time. Non profit is for the betterment of the public not because you're too broke to dive in far away open sites or have a private playground. Btw, I haven't seen a public post from wet inviting divers to join in. But perhaps I will now.

You are more then welcome to help on any ASA project but unfortunately you may be driving to Florida to do so. There is a reason why JW is closed to diving and you have chosen to be a part of it. The sad thing is there was things in the work to change restrictions at JW but since the reason this post is here happened, I really don't see the need in me continuing my efforts with as much as I have going on in Florida.

I will leave you with one last thought to remember. Do not cry over spilled milk!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

It really seems as though this should have been handled alot better :/

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I personally called both Eric and Carl.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cavemn

I personally called both Eric and Carl.

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This is true, David did give me a call once the lack of communication was pointed out above.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cavemn

I personally called both Eric and Carl.

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I meant the whole thing from the beginning. Too many personal vendettas and emotional decision making.

Some comments in this thread are rather embarrassing if they represent ASA(and I don't believe they do, but I can certainly see how they can be read in that manner), and not just personal opinion.

FWIW,
Perhaps the outside world is right, cave divers really are crazy. The he said/she said that continues to go on in this small community day in and day out is insane; yet can be easely understood with very little logic. Cave diving is the most competitive, Non-competitive sport there is and has been since the first cave dive was made. The second cave dive was further penetration and a longer dive time than the first. The 3,4,5, ect. the same thing. Cave divers have Type A personality, adrenaline fueled bodys, and by nature are very competitive individuals. Everyone has their own opinions and thoughts, of which each person thinks theirs is by far the best. Is this driven by mega ego's? Of course it could be! But, it could also come from a confident humble person who has vast amounts of knowledge; far exceeding that of your own. Will this cause some hurt feelings, brused egos, and create grudges? Duh! So here is the best advice I can give to any diver.

"Forums are a place where people go to learn and gain knowledge from people who have something to offer, yet there are many peole on them who have nothing to offer only opinions and rants that cause friction in the community. If you spend as much time diving as you do on your computer you wouldn't have time to concern yourself with the business of other people and the politics that forums have! You also wouldn't have the time to rant on public forums about the last person who pissed you off. You could write your complaints and grudges on your wet notes, but then again who really gives a $hit whats on your wet notes.

Safe Diving

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ryanlala

Cave divers have Type A personality, adrenaline fueled bodies, and by nature are very competitive individuals.

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Hmmmm. I think about the cave divers who have been my major influences and mentors - Jamie Hempstead, Forrest Wilson, Kelly Jessop, Lamar Hires - and not a single one of them would be described that way.

Quote:

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But, it could also come from a confident humble person who has vast
amounts of knowledge; far exceeding that of your own

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You are Correct! They all fall under the statement above.
Which is what everyone the cave diving community should strive to be like, and pass their knowledge on to others. I have never seen one of those Gentleman post a rant, cause friction, or put someone else down! Which is why they are all so respected in the community.

how big is Jacob's Well?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by phillip1

how big is Jacob's Well?

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It is 6300' at a depth of 140 max and average 123. Passage is 8-10 wide and 4-6 tall. It has a main passage, B tunnel and a c tunnel.

are there any pics or videos?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by phillip1

are there any pics or videos?

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http://vimeo.com/59270528

The first 500 feet


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I was discussing a talk I was giving with my attorney wife. The talk was about the personality of cave divers. I had only an hour and that included Q&A time. My wife said, "Only...Only an hour? I could give that talk in two words. Arrogant A#####e." I just smiled and asked, "What two words would you use to describe lawyers?"

skip

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skip

I was discussing a talk I was giving with my attorney wife. The talk was about the personality of cave divers. I had only an hour and that included Q&A time. My wife said, "Only...Only an hour? I could give that talk in two words. Arrogant A#####e." I just smiled and asked, "What two words would you use to describe lawyers?"

skip

---

:rollguy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cavemn

http://vimeo.com/59270528

The first 500 feet

---

What is that about 53 seconds in? I thought it was a stage, or safety tank, but it looks more like a barrel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FW

What is that about 53 seconds in? I thought it was a stage, or safety tank, but it looks more like a barrel.

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The silver shadow on the right is a bucket. We use it to dig out that restriction and carry the rock further into the cave. This restriction is a little tight right now. When it is cleared out you can almost drive a scooter thru it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cavemn

The silver shadow on the right is a bucket. We use it to dig out that restriction and carry the rock further into the cave. This restriction is a little tight right now. When it is cleared out you can almost drive a scooter thru it.

---

Yea, I have heard about that gravel restriction. It is the main reason Jacob's Well is permit only now. Someone got stuck in, or behind it, and died.

The fun thing is when the restriction is tight and the flow is howling. The gravel dances around like spaghetti in a pot. :)

I really enjoyed the video!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ward Beecher

The fun thing is when the restriction is tight and the flow is howling. The gravel dances around like spaghetti in a pot. :)

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Yea, I wondered how much good it does to put the gravel farther into the cave. I suspect a flood will push a lot of gravel right back to the restriction. That is a problem we have here in TAG.

It doesn't help for long. People open it up and mother nature closes it down. It is just as easy to dig your way in and out. You only need it open wider if you are ferrying several stages in to go to the back of the cave.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FW

Yea, I have heard about that gravel restriction. It is the main reason Jacob's Well is permit only now. Someone got stuck in, or behind it, and died.

---

There's also the false chimney. A free diver wedged themselves into it in 1993. It's the first light you see coming out of the keyhole restriction. You can see the top as an elongated hole in the video where I focus on the short side tunnel on my way down.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skip

I was discussing a talk I was giving with my attorney wife. The talk was about the personality of cave divers. I had only an hour and that included Q&A time. My wife said, "Only...Only an hour? I could give that talk in two words. Arrogant A#####e." I just smiled and asked, "What two words would you use to describe lawyers?"

skip

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How many cave divers does your wife know? Is she basing her opinion on a study group n=1? :)