4 and 5 Person Dive Teams......a bad idea

Please understand that the following a purely a hypothetical I have know first hand knowledge of any such event having ever taken place, especially not at Ginnie recently.

Is a 4 or 5 person dive team a bad idea? I think so and something like the following could be a reason......but you decide:

Lets say you are bringing up the rear in a 4 or 5 person dive team and really don't know the people you are diving with very well but are in fact somewhat familiar with them.

You're swimming up a slightly silty area and get caught in the line!!!!! Now with all of the lights, silt and confusion you get left behind and are forced to start hacking away at gold line......forcing a repair and an unpleasant end to your dive and day.

A 4+ person 'team' is called a 'cluster f^^k'... just my opinion... :roll: 3 is the limit for a 'team'... 5 cave divers could be a team of 3 and 2... just diving close together...

Thats kind of what I thought....I wonder if the above ever happened?????

Anyone.......and just to make it even more preposterous lets for arguments sake assume last Saturday, April 6, 2013 at maybe 2PM EST at Ginnie Springs near the hill 400 line.......

A 4 person team isn't.

If you have 4 divers that want to dive you really need to make two teams of 2 divers each. I can recall one specific dive where there were 5 of us. What we did was to separate into two specific teams. The first team in the cave was a team of 3. The second team in the cave was a team of 2. I was tail end Charlie in the second team.

We all talked about responsibilities. Specifically, I was only responsible to my team mate in my team of 2. Sure, if the other team had a problem we would be happy to assist, but we were not part of their dive plan, and they were not part of ours. Sure, we were all going to the same place at the same time, but 5 is just not workable.

In spite of the general idea that we would all generally do the same dive, the truth of the matter is that the first team got well out of sight by about 800 feet. They turned when they were well ahead of us, and we spotted them coming out just about the time we turned. When we exited we were a slinky of the two teams that reached our stops more or less together. Yes, our team was together and the other team was together, but there was some space between the two teams.

I have done several dives with 4 or 5 divers. Every time we have split up into separate teams that intend to go to the same general area at the same general time, but with separate specific plans and responsibilities.

3 divers is the limit, and even then it requires a very specific conversation about how the dive will be conducted with a team of that size.

Mark Vlahos

not sure, here in dominican an open water guide (sometimes not even open water certified yet) can take up to 8 open water divers about 800'+ in a cave, that makes it 9 open water.
thinking in that, a team of 4 cave divers sounds like cool!!.

I think up to 3 is cool, if cave is very big can take 4 but separated a bit in teams of 2

If everyone is squared away with their passive communication skills and buddy awareness then it shouldn't be an issue but it often is. Better to split into two teams and stagger your dives to avoid any issues. The important thing to remember in a multi-person dive team is that your job is not to keep up with the person ahead of you but to keep track of and not run off from the person behind you.

I believe that the problem lies in the fact that cave divers by the very nature of the sport are type A personalities and mostly overestimate their abilities. as a rule... 1 to 3 is the best range IMHO.

It was a four person team involved in the double fatality at Calimba a few years back. On their exit, the leader turned the wrong way at T which they had marked with a cookie on the way in, and the other three just followed along. They swam 1500' the wrong way before turning back, even though the next jump on the way out was only about 60' from the T.

I tell my students team size should be 2 or 3 divers. 2 makes for easy communication and easy to keep track of each other. 3 makes it more difficult but it does provide for more resources should something go wrong. Communication is very difficult, especially for the middle diver. The middle diver has to keep an eye on both the lead and the rear and has to relay communication signals. Not much time left for looking at the cave if the middle diver is with new buddies. Add a 4th diver and now you have 2 middle divers. And I don't believe the 2 teams swimming close together idea really works. I've done that a couple of times and the teams always split up and now you have two split up teams wondering where the other team went and if everything is okay. Besides, not many passages are big enough to accommodate that many divers. I know of a couple of incidents that would not have occurred had someone told them a certain passage wasn't suitable for more than 2 divers. If you have 4 or 5 divers in a group then split up and plan your own dives without trying to keep everyone together. Both teams will have much nicer dives.

I prefer teams of two for most dives but like a team of three for deep dives (Eagles Nest) as it is still well managed in the cave and provides additional bailout capabilities when diving CCR.

If you are referring to what happened to me, then you are correct, you have no first hand knowledge of what happened. None of the above story is correct. No silt, no gold line, no hacking, no unpleasant end to the dive. It was actually a very pleasant dive for the most part. Certainly not an unpleasant day. And I was very familiar with my dive buddies, as I trained them from Cavern through Full Cave.

The only part you may have gotten right was that there was 4 of us. But as we were experiencing their first stage dives, and I am an instructor allowed to take three students in the cave, I guess technically while you are correct that it was a 4 man buddy team, it is allowable to teach 3 students.

For those of you who want the real story, and not Jont's usual attempt to elicit some sort of reaction, call me or pm me and I'll tell you.

*edit*
Oh, and it was me that got a line caught in my manifold. First time in 15+ years of cave diving. I guess it had to happen sooner or later. But, that's why we are trained. I cut it, repaired it, and finished our dive as planned. It's not all the hype that some would like to see I guess.

My often dive team consists of three of us. We come down from Pa. Everyone knows they are not supposed to run off from the guys behind them. I usually am the middle man. The guy behind me knows if I blank out my light he shines his light right under me. I have also dived in teams of 5 in mexico and we had no problems. A team of two may be ideal, but more can dive just fine if they are being aware of the guy behind and the guy in front. That being said, one person without team awareness can screw up a two man team!

When I dove OC I really liked the three team concept. Now all members of my team were familia with each other diving capabilities but I stilled like the middle position. We called it the "Rocking Chair" spot, since the diver had a member in front and back in case something when wrong. Yes he had to communicate with both members and was involved in the whole dive, such as helping run the reel and retrieving the reel . But for me a diver with a light in front and a diver with a light behind just made for a enjoyable dive, plus I didn't have to set the pace, entering or exiting.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

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Originally Posted by Jont

Anyone.......and just to make it even more preposterous lets for arguments sake assume last Saturday, April 6, 2013 at maybe 2PM EST at Ginnie Springs near the hill 400 line.......

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at about that time, I saw a team of 4 on Optima's and a team of 4 w/1 Meg and 3 Sidemount, are you talking about them?

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Originally Posted by SlowDiver

We called it the "Rocking Chair" spot

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Try diving with some of my friends, when you have a fast swimmer in #1 spot and a slowpoke in #3. To borrow a cycling term, the middle guy is the "rubberband man," trying to keep the other two within sight of one another.

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

If you are referring to what happened to me, then you are correct, you have no first hand knowledge of what happened. None of the above story is correct. No silt, no gold line, no hacking, no unpleasant end to the dive. It was actually a very pleasant dive for the most part. Certainly not an unpleasant day. And I was very familiar with my dive buddies, as I trained them from Cavern through Full Cave.

The only part you may have gotten right was that there was 4 of us. But as we were experiencing their first stage dives, and I am an instructor allowed to take three students in the cave, I guess technically while you are correct that it was a 4 man buddy team, it is allowable to teach 3 students.

For those of you who want the real story, and not Jont's usual attempt to elicit some sort of reaction, call me or pm me and I'll tell you.

*edit*
Oh, and it was me that got a line caught in my manifold. First time in 15+ years of cave diving. I guess it had to happen sooner or later. But, that's why we are trained. I cut it, repaired it, and finished our dive as planned. It's not all the hype that some would like to see I guess.

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This should be interesting. Please tell more about how an instructor with a class gets his manifold tangled. Despite being with 3 students, apparently has nobody around or aware enough to remove the line from his manifold and has to cut and repair the line. Where were the students? Who was supervising them while all this was going on?

Like I said, if you want to talk about it, you can call me.

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

Like I said, if you want to talk about it, you can call me.

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Its a pretty sad day when I agree with Jont.

I don't kno, don't want to know,and frankly don't care what happened on this occasion. I would however like to remind some people that stuff going wrong does not happen on a neatly timed basis. Just because an instructor has students diving with him does not make him immune to the little issues each of us can encounter on any dive. It seems to me that the issue was resolved quickly and he remained in control of his class. Anyone who has never had an issue develop on a dive, either has very few dives under their belt or is flat out lying. We train for and practice these scenarios repeatedly just so we can deal effectively with the real thing WHEN (not IF) it happens. People in glass houses and all that.....

This goes to show why you need teams of 10-12. There's always somebody around to help. Safety in numbers and all that.
Yes I'm kidding. I agree with TeddyB actually.

I started to get all worked up about this thread, then I remembered, I really don't give a shite what you guys think.

The fact of the matter is this. Instructors are not infallible. I promise I've made mistakes in the past, and I will make mistakes in the future. If you can't deal with that, perhaps you are better suited taking classes from instructors who tell you they are a perfect cave diver every cave dive. But, you'll never hear me say that.

Just remember....
Those who can't do, Teach.
Those who can't teach, Teach Gym.

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

Just remember....
Those who can't do, Teach.
Those who can't teach, Teach Gym.

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So you don't know how to cave dive??

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

Just remember....
Those who can't do, Teach.
Those who can't teach, Teach Gym.

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I hear Florida is making Dodgeball a required Gym class, is that true?

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Originally Posted by Tiago

I hear Florida is making Dodgeball a required Gym class, is that true?

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I don't know, but that was a quote from Jack Black in the movie School of Rock.

Derek, you're welcome to come diving with me and answer that question for yourself.

Always wanted to do the Black Abyss with a 6+man team. Strategically place people to illuminate the room. We did that somewhere once,but that is another story that is hidden in cave diving lies and lore.

I dive, I teach and I also make mistakes, it's called being human.

Back to the original question regarding the number of team members, 3 works great for me in most all situations, including tight SM only caves in Mexico. We do a bit of larger 4 person teams, with a bit more spacing between the divers. As was mentioned, if everyone understand his role, and pays close attention to the person in front and behind.

Obviously there are situations that may develop in any cave dive that the team must address, as someone already said, that specifically what we train for.

I had an experience with a team of five in Mexico. Despite the fact that we were all experienced divers and that the dive itself was not particularly demanding, we experienced a team separation (which was in part my fault). Going back over what happened afterwards, it was multifactorial, due to the second-to-last diver hitting thirds right as we got into a section of cave with some tight zigzags, which made it harder for me to be sure the guy behind me WAS behind me, and it was hard for him to be sure the guy behind HIM was there. When he realized that guy had stopped, he went back to see what had happened, and opened even more space between us. I let an unacceptable amount of time go by before I realized HE was gone. We all got back together, and nothing bad happened, but I will never do that again.

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Originally Posted by H2Ocaver

at about that time, I saw a team of 4 on Optima's and a team of 4 w/1 Meg and 3 Sidemount, are you talking about them?

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Peter I was not talking about you???? Why would you think that ???? You're the ULTIMATE CAVE DIVER!!!!!!

Not sure the Optima gang was doing a great job of blocking the keyhole for a bit but I think there were 2 Optima crews, not sure what team was trying to make love to the keyhole while installing a jump for 7 minutes????? Using a scooter as a bow thruster was fun while watching a cluster ****.

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

I started to get all worked up about this thread, then I remembered, I really don't give a shite what you guys think.

The fact of the matter is this. Instructors are not infallible. I promise I've made mistakes in the past, and I will make mistakes in the future. If you can't deal with that, perhaps you are better suited taking classes from instructors who tell you they are a perfect cave diver every cave dive. But, you'll never hear me say that.

Just remember....
Those who can't do, Teach.
Those who can't teach, Teach Gym.

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Really ???? I'm shocked that you would say such a stupid thing, LARRY SILVERSTEIN, BERNARD MENDIK, MORT ZUCKERMAN, all "teachers" all worth 3 billion plus, not bad for people that can't DO!!!! All self made........

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Originally Posted by Jont

Really ???? I'm shocked that you would say such a stupid thing, LARRY SILVERSTEIN, BERNARD MENDIK, MORT ZUCKERMAN, all "teachers" all worth 3 billion plus, not bad for people that can't DO!!!! All self made........

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It was a joke and meant to be stupid. Buy a sense of humor.

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Originally Posted by Jont

Really ???? I'm shocked that you would say such a stupid thing, LARRY SILVERSTEIN, BERNARD MENDIK, MORT ZUCKERMAN, all "teachers" all worth 3 billion plus, not bad for people that can't DO!!!! All self made........

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It's a joke. He was quoting a movie. You sure do talk a lot of crap for someone that can't follow along with your own manufactured drama thread.

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

It was a joke and meant to be stupid. Buy a sense of humor.

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LOL....I have 5 or 6 extra sensors for you as well as your grey sweatshirt (that I've been sleeping in).....its very comfortable.

Later

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

It was a joke and meant to be stupid. Buy a sense of humor.

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Just some sense might be a good thing, wow no wonder Yankees are despised in the south :roll:

You guys crack me up!!! I can actually hear this back-and-forth.... (in your own voices I might add) playing out in my head...... Funny stuff.... Well at least it's a break from the usual voices in my head :p

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Originally Posted by TeddyB

Just some sense might be a good thing, wow no wonder Yankees are despised in the south :roll:

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You think Yankees are despised here? You should check out Boston

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Originally Posted by Jont

LOL....I have 5 or 6 extra sensors for you as well as your grey sweatshirt (that I've been sleeping in).....its very comfortable.

Later

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LOL, This is kinda funny. I'm going to wait until you have your rEvo and bailout on, then punch you in the face.
Mod's, don't get alarmed. This is an inside joke. I don't really intend to do him harm. Yet!

Cave drama.. always entertaining.

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

LOL, This is kinda funny. I'm going to wait until you have your rEvo and bailout on, then punch you in the face.
Mod's, don't get alarmed. This is an inside joke. I don't really intend to do him harm. Yet!

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LOL.....now thats funny, I just woke up and bought a sense of humor, but I'll tell you your sweatshirt needs to be washed...........I had a good dream.

Tim: Sorry I missed you I was looking forward to hanging.

I'm reminded of a different quote:
"A mind is a terrible thing to waste."

You all seem to have lost yours.

And Forrest is on the road and can't referee

No referee needed. We're all friends here.

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

No referee needed. We're all friends here.

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Hey buddy,

I just bought you a new domain name:

www.Iamthekingofalldivers.com

Damn newyorkers.
You can't buy back my love.

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Originally Posted by Jont

Hey buddy,

I just bought you a new domain name:

www.Iamthekingofalldivers.com

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LoL! You two are too funny!!

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Originally Posted by TracyN

LoL! You two are too funny!!

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TRACY DARLING.....I've missed you, Florida isn't the same without seeing you carry your steel SM tanks to the water while I sit back point and ask you if you need some assistance after you're done!!!


and PETER: the password to access the account is: IamakingIswear

And to set the record straight this entire thread while serious in principal (I do think 4 or 5 person teams get tricky) has been a joke between Peter, me and a few that know both of us.

Peter's a dam fine guy and very detailed instructor.

In all seriousness Peter might not have the tact (I'm told we have that in common but deny it) that some desire but if the fit hits the shan he'll be the first to help you out.

Now he forced me to write this because he packs a compact 45 and up north we call a 45 "a Mans Deodorant"

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

If you are referring to what happened to me, then you are correct, you have no first hand knowledge of what happened. None of the above story is correct. No silt, no gold line, no hacking, no unpleasant end to the dive. It was actually a very pleasant dive for the most part. Certainly not an unpleasant day. And I was very familiar with my dive buddies, as I trained them from Cavern through Full Cave.

The only part you may have gotten right was that there was 4 of us. But as we were experiencing their first stage dives, and I am an instructor allowed to take three students in the cave, I guess technically while you are correct that it was a 4 man buddy team, it is allowable to teach 3 students.

For those of you who want the real story, and not Jont's usual attempt to elicit some sort of reaction, call me or pm me and I'll tell you.

*edit*
Oh, and it was me that got a line caught in my manifold. First time in 15+ years of cave diving. I guess it had to happen sooner or later. But, that's why we are trained. I cut it, repaired it, and finished our dive as planned. It's not all the hype that some would like to see I guess.

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What agency allows 3 students for a cave stage class??

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Originally Posted by RN

What agency allows 3 students for a cave stage class??

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Dude the whole thing was a joke, dont sweat it.

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Originally Posted by RN

What agency allows 3 students for a cave stage class??

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What agency thinks it's okay to charge money for a "stage class?" We learned how to dive stages in Cave Class.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

What agency thinks it's okay to charge money for a "stage class?" We learned how to dive stages in Cave Class.

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Most of them do, NACD, NSS-CDS, IANTD, TDI and UTD offer this course. With NAUI and GUE it is included in the Cave 2 curriculum, probably with PSAI as well.

Oliver

The "PADI mentality" is alive and well...

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

Most of them do, NACD, NSS-CDS, IANTD, TDI and UTD offer this course. With NAUI and GUE it is included in the Cave 2 curriculum, probably with PSAI as well.

Oliver

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Back when we completed Full Cave course it included stage diving and decompression....(not that it's rocket science)... and you were NOT guaranteed to pass the course just because you had cash on hand... PADI be damned...(apologies to my friends who remain acolytes)

Dive safe,

Celia

My understanding is that PSAI full cave, by itself, does not include use of a stage or stages to extend penetration. However, it does include certification to use a single stage for decompression, with a mix for which the diver is otherwise certified.

I personally love 5 man teams. More lights to choose from, more gas options.

You can even wave someone off during an OOA so you can breath from another buddy's reg.

LOL!!!

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Originally Posted by Jont

Dude the whole thing was a joke, dont sweat it.

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I know what you said was but this statement was made:

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But as we were experiencing their first stage dives, and I am an instructor allowed to take three students in the cave, I guess technically while you are correct that it was a 4 man buddy team, it is allowable to teach 3 students.

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Just wondering what agency. The agencies I teach through only allow 2 students during a stage class.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

What agency thinks it's okay to charge money for a "stage class?" We learned how to dive stages in Cave Class.

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I incorporate stages in the final dives of some classes if the students want. I've only ever taught one stage class and that was a referral I got. It isn't a popular class. However, I do see a value in it if taught correctly, meaning various gas management techniques are discussed and various methods of carrying a stage cylinder are discussed and used. This is something that can easily be done with a good mentor.

If you are too dumb to figure stage diving assuming you have had adequate cave diving training.... Maybe crochet is more your speed.. Sometimes these things go too far...

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Originally Posted by RN

Just wondering what agency. The agencies I teach through only allow 2 students during a stage class..

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GUE cave2 includes stages and a course can have a max of 3 students. Not sure why a full cave course could have 3 students but this add on can only have 2?

Personally, I think a stage class could be very useful. I might well have presented for my Cave 2 without any technical training (as it turned out, I did a one-bottle deco class because I KNEW I needed some prep). I got no instruction at all in handling two bottles, which resulted in some very amusing situations, if you were the person not involved in the class, and not either the poor woman trying to figure out how to clip on the second bottle, or the buddies tapping their feet because they couldn't start their deco until I got it done.

The gas rules and bottle handling for a single stage are pretty simple. But when you get to a second bottle, it gets more interesting, and I think an instructor's help and a couple of days of practice would make that a lot easier.

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Originally Posted by LCF

Personally, I think a stage class could be very useful.

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I agree, it would be very useful.
But then the question is, is such a class required or not? Or more specifically, is someone breaking the limits of training when doing staged dives at the full cave level?
As far as I am told, that is the fact, provided that the diver in question has been certified through one of the agencies that offer this course.

Oliver

From personal experience, more than 3 is a bad idea.

IANTD standards allow cave divers in their Technical Cave curriculum to conduct stage cave dives at the instructor's discretion. :clapper

NACD & NSS-CDS standards have this set up as a separate specialty class. :smt102

As Sludge indicated, at one point stage cave diving was a part of the full cave class curriculum but was taken out several/many years ago.

My open water course (NASDS 1986) had a chapter on decompression procedures. Although we didn't do any actual deco dives, there were questions on the exam covering it.

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Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

IANTD standards allow cave divers in their Technical Cave curriculum to conduct stage cave dives at the instructor's discretion. :clapper

NACD & NSS-CDS standards have this set up as a separate specialty class. :smt102

As Sludge indicated, at one point stage cave diving was a part of the full cave class curriculum but was taken out several/many years ago.

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IANTD also has a separate specialty class for stage.

A heck I saw an instructor teaching four students at the same time not that long ago. What agency would that have been allowed under? Guess I'll have to check with my friend who was part of the class....

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Originally Posted by mbaker

A heck I saw an instructor teaching four students at the same time not that long ago. What agency would that have been allowed under? Guess I'll have to check with my friend who was part of the class....

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In a cave, or in a cavern?

Sometimes you may see four students with an instructor, but one of the students is an instructor being graded on their instruction. If I said that correctly. If that's the case, then you actually have two students and two instructors.

I will get all of the details correct before I reply as I would hate to wrongfully convict someone of their mistakes!

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

Sometimes you may see four students with an instructor, but one of the students is an instructor being graded on their instruction. If I said that correctly. If that's the case, then you actually have two students and two instructors.

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Remember that happened in my Intro class, execpt there were only three students.

This thread reminds me why I don't dive with instructors when I'm not taking a class.

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

Sometimes you may see four students with an instructor, but one of the students is an instructor being graded on their instruction. If I said that correctly. If that's the case, then you actually have two students and two instructors.

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That was the case in our Cave1 class. One instructor, with an intructor candidate and 3 students. It worked out well. The instructor chose his caves and times well as not to be a burden to others in the system and having two instructors allowed one to focus on the person performing a task and the other monitoring the student that wasn't (aka making sure the two students weren't losing trim or dicking around while the one performed a lost line).