http://www.sptimes.com/2005/09/13/He...lled_to_.shtml
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Well crap, that's a bummer. Thanks for the info.
My prayers are with her, her friends, dive buddy and family.
Is it really necessary to be "first on the scene" to bring these incidents to internet attention? A sense of decency would seem to dictate letting those affected deal with this before the cave gossip begins.
Just a thought, I could be wrong.
Johnny Richards
Hey Johnny, It was already in the paper (which I don't get) and on another forum. I think that friends have to be notified somehow so they can grieve and know what's happened. Much of the time the family and close friends are so upset that they don't let everyone who ever dived with the person know when something like this happens. Gary did this in a tastefull way. We all hate what happened.
JohnnyQuote:
Originally Posted by johnnyrichards
I agree,I don't think anybody wants gossip and conjecture. I think it is important to discuss any facts quickly that may have precipitated an accident,so to prevent another accident. ie when bad air was discovered to be the cause of an accident in Mexico,rapid fact gathering may have prevented further diver demise. My thoughts extended to family and friends.
Kelly Jessop
News articles hardly constitute gossip, though they are rarely entirely accurate in their details. And as Cindy mentioned it was already in the paper, on the Internet, and on another forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyrichards
I can understand the tendency to avoid mentioning the accident prematurely but the accident is hardly a state secret at this point.
(As speculation at this point is a virtual certainty I think that if there are facts official parties would like to present or errors in the article that those in the know would like address to prevent the likelihood of erroneous speculation I encourage them to provide them [rather then wait for the usual rumor explosion, tasteless speculation, agency and instructor accusations and finger pointing]. The Deco Stop would also be a good place to disseminate the same info.)
It sounded horrible. I do hope she is better then the article states and wish her well. :(
Judi and Rudy are two of the nicest people you would ever meet. My prayers are with them both.
As the story develops please show them some respect and pray for her.
Ours Prayers are also for them, may God comfort them.
Safe caving!! and best wishes to all.
im wondering what happened, you have to have a bad embolism to puke up the pink foam, but it says he took her up to the surface, so theres no way she made an uncontrolled accent to cause this, yah i have no idea.
i pray she'll pull through this
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyrichards
I don't believe it is affecting those dealing with it, by posting the news of an incident.
By posting conjecture and assumptions, gossip and accusations, yes, that does affect the situation, but that's not the fault of the person reporting the news.
I appreciate getting the news regarding accidents through this forum and would much rather get it here from a group of friends in a tight knit community than have to read about it in the newspapers, which are always wrong. But then again, I don't make comments or assumptions on accidents, but I am concerned for all those involved and like to keep them in my prayers.
Brian
Thank you moderators. Cindy
FWIW:
I will close this thread if I get another complaint.
There is no room for conjecture.
My prayers are with them.
My Prayers go out to her, her buddy, family and friends. Lets keep our fingers crossed that she pulls through this.
I was shocked to read in the paper about Judi's accident. We dove many dives with Judi in years past and had lost touch in recent years. Judi is a top notch diver with a great sense of humor and a heart of gold. If anyone in the cave diving community has contact with Judi or Rudi please let them know the divers in the St Pete area have them both in our thoughts and prayers. Hang tough Judi - we love you.
Accident conjecture is forbidden?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwain
Is a forum rule or a thread rule?
My condolences.
I also hope the TRUTH about this incident comes out and lessons can be learned by all about what may have caused this.
The only way incidents like this can be resolved is to figure out and release what may have caused them, so they don't happen again to someone else.
Hopefully she comes out with no long term ill effects, but obviously that remains to be seen.
How is she doing?
Better as of yesterday.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainSpeleo
That's good to hear. It didn't sound too good when I read the article.
Rumor mill has it as a bad mix, with way too much helium.
Let's be careful with rumor mills... They sometimes leave off A LOT of details...Quote:
Originally Posted by John L.
Again, I simply hope that those involved will post a detailed report of this accident so that others can learn from the mistakes/events and be overall better divers.
Does anyone have news about Judi's Heath and or progress. Also please let her or the family know that she is all of our prayers.
We should all know CPR like those two. 15-20 minutes is probably more than most people could do alone. Best wishes.
Judi is off life support and breathing on her own. She has not regained consciousness. It is still wait and see.
Rudy is at the hospital and stays there virtually 24/7. He has not lost hope but is determined to be there for Judi no matter what.
Rudy has requested that supporters not come to the hospital. At one point there were so many visitors that it created problems for the hospital workers. He knows you are out there and is extremely appreciative.
We will all keep praying for her, and we are here if you need us.Quote:
Originally Posted by ombligo
Thank you for the update, Ombligo, on Judi's condition. I am not surprised that there were many people showing up at the hospital. Judi has touched so many of us and has dove with many of us over the years. We will sit tight and not intrude at the hospital but we would sure love to have updates on her condition. Sending additional prayers your way, Judi and Rudy.
Don't listen to any rumor mill. I'm sure that an official dive report will eventually be released.
I agree it is best to wait for the accident report and not speculate.There is no such thing as too much helium, at least above 500 feet or so. It is the O2 that matters and no one knows what the mix was yet.
So does that mean you can breath 100% helium on a dive less than 500ft? I am not a tech. diver so I do not know. If so why add 02 to the mix?Quote:
Originally Posted by jpdiver
JammerQuote:
Originally Posted by jammer
100% of any inert gas such as helium and nitrogen would be fatal since there isn't any oxygen to support life.
Sure, you can breathe 100% helium....for about 2-3 minutes before you pass out, then die shortly thereafter due to the fact that there's no oxygen in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jammer
What jpdiver was getting at is that "too much" helium can't hurt you shallower than a certain depth(generally seen as 400-600fsw, depending on the person and type of mix they're using).....it's the too little oxygen part that will hurt you. For instance....at Eagles Nest, I normally dive a mix of 13% oxygen, 50-60% helium. If you breathe 13% oxygen at the surface for an extended period of time, most people(at least those that live at sea level, or below 6,000ft or so) will start to get light headed, and some may pass out, because the PO2 is only .13. Go to 33', and the PO2 is .26....more than enough to sustain life regardless of level of activity.
When you get deeper than about 400-600fsw, with a very high helium content in the gas, something known as High Pressure Nervous Syndrome(HPNS) begins to occur. It starts out with "the shakes", and gets worse from there. Do a google search for it...you'll find plenty of info...or you can learn it if/when you do trimix training.
Mike
Well we could discuss this till we're all blue in the face, but right now I think all there needs to be is prayers and support for Judi and Rudy.
Hang in there Judi....we're all praying for ya.
CaveDivingCop:
You're wasting your time. The debates and assumptions will continue. :roll:
By the way, I took an early retirement 2 years ago after spending 33-1/2 years on the streets, dealing with some of the scum of the Earth. Now I have more time for cave diving, and my blood pressure is down. :D
I think it would be quicker then that. While you could hold your breath with a lung full of air for 2-3 minutes and survive for a while on the oxygen saturating your tissues breathing pure Helium would lead to a much more rapid and painless unconsciousness - likely even without warning.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeH
Depending on your breathing tidal volume and residual air in your lungs each breath of Helium would displace more oxygen from the lungs (20% to 10% to 5% etc) in addition to metabolic consumption of the same. Unlike holding your breath though you'd also continue to remove CO2 so there would be no feeling of building "need to breath" because the body senses CO2 buildup in the blood to control breathing rate - not oxygen levels. A single deep breath and exhalation cycle could be as much as 90% efficient in purging O2 from the lungs going from ~20% to ~2% in one breath followed by almost immediate unconsciousness).
http://cavediver.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=7843#7843Quote:
Originally Posted by http://yarchive.net/space/science/man_in_vacuum.html
I hear ya there....I work crime scenes now....so less stress....about 9 more to go to make my 30....maybe we won't have to wait that long before we can get some dives in together and we'll trade war stories during surface deco's and surface intervals. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainSpeleo
okay, didnt mean to start anything
but when will a proper report be made? and by who?
Once the investigation has been completed and an official report has been released, I'm sure that we'll read about it in the NACD and/or NSSCDS publications.
I was not trying to do or say anything wrong I was asking a question and I am very worried about Judi but I know she is a very stuburn Lady and I mean that in a good way but my prayers are with her and her family. But I know if there is any chance at all she is tuff and she will be telling a story about it at a campfire someday. But yes lets all keep her in our prayers. Does anyone know her curent condition or any improvments of hope?Quote:
Originally Posted by CaveDivingCop
A few of my professional aquaintences have told me that walking into a 100% inert atmosphere has an immediate affect on the nervous system, and will cause it to do the equivalent of a "reboot". The problem is, while it's rebooting, you die, unless, as noted, you're rescued and CPR is performed as your system comes back on line. There seem to be quite a few things that happen, and I hate medicine so I try to understand them in as simple terms as possible. His "reboot" theory was the best analogy I've heard yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary
Mark
WOW, someone hasn't even come out of the ICU, and we are on the edge of new scientific breakthrough.
If her mix was so low in oxygen she could have gone through with the dive for quite a while before suffering from hypoxia and blacking out.
Only the analization of the gas in the cylinders will tell us if this was factual,
now we just need to know if she took a hit from the bends with this, or if there was an embolization.
I was hoping people would not start speculating like this. She could have also had a health problem of some kind. Please lets just wait and see what the final word is. Cindy :(
Forget it, Cindy. Like I told CaveDivingCop earlier, you're going to have those who keep making assumptions and who want to debate the issue.
Not to be "brash", but the speculation would stop once the facts were released.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy
Being that it has been 14 days and not one shred of verified information has surfaced from an incident where there is a survivor that is not injured and can speak just fine, may be adding to the desire to speculate.
I know everyone has to "get their ducks in a row" but 14 days is plenty of time to do so... in my own opinion of course...
I hope that she pulls out of this and can return to at least a somewhat normal life.
I also hope that Rudy can give out the details on the incident so that others do not repeat any possible mistakes/actions that may have contributed.
Thats why there is an incident reporting feature on this site and many other locations. So that others can learn from incidents and hopefully someone else's life may be saved in the future.
Me too, Joe, I would like to know what's going on. The people doing the reporting should get on the ball as far as we are all concerned. The process takes way too long and preliminary statements need to be made. As for the "guessing" that is being done here, though, it's just rumor and speculations, and doesn't teach us anything. Cindy :D
Rudy is more concerned about Judi at this point than satisfying anyones curiosity. The details will come out in time.
Most definitely. If there was anything that needed to be said then Rudy would be the first to let us know, but he is not the type to start talking just for the sake of hearing his own voice. It's called having priorities in life. If you are afraid that you might suffer a similar experience then stay the hell out of the water. In the mean time let those affected by this have time to get their lives back in order. My prayers and best wished go out to both Judi and Rudy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay
DeWayne i think you just said it the best there brother...AMEN
That was the best response to this I have read so far !!
yah, i know i shouldnt speculate, but i find it hard not to try to figure out what could have happened
D1V3R, like Dewayne said it really dosen't matter at this point unless you plan on doing the same dive profile. And if it's that big of a problem, stay out of the water for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by D1V3R
Finding out what could have happened won't change Judi's condition. You keep apologizing and keep saying you shouldn't speculate....but then you come up with another speculation. How about a little self control. and I mean all this in a nice way.
yah well, i said i was sorry, i just really was curious, ill keep my speculations to myslef
There should probably be an accident forum separate from the main forum. Every time someone starts a thread in this forum to discuss an accident it becomes a mourning thread. People ask questions about what happened and everyone tells them it's out of place and they shouldn't wonder. Meanwhile the Mourning section of the population is constantly offended by any discussion of why or where or how. Meanwhile there are probably dozens of people who already know what happened but no one will discuss it for fear of offending any of several groups and, of course, to protect those involved whom we all care for.
Hey Gary, I know that the deco stop does that. I think you are looking at a basic difference in divers personalities. I personally don't think any accident analysis needs to be done by people without knowledge of the actual accident or until facts are posted. People do get feelings hurt and it is totally uncalled for since it is rumor and speculation. I think that most of the discussion you see posted on forums before facts come out is the equivelent to sabre rattling, cave divers saying 'look how smart I am', look, 'this will never happen to me', 'I am invinsible and ready for battle!' What I would really like to see is morning posts until the facts come out and then analysis and suggestions posted by people who are trained to do that. I find very little information that is usefull posted after accidents on the web. Accidents happen and they happen to good people. It's very sad but it's a part of our sport. Cindy :(
This article came out in the St Pete Times this morning regarding Judi's accident.
Racing for life, 130 feet down
By RICK GERSHMAN
Published September 29, 2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WEEKI WACHEE - Deep below an algae-covered pond, Eagle's Nest is considered one of the most breathtaking underwater cave systems in the world. Its intricacies have alternately been described as challenging and dangerous.
Judi Bedard never made it to the dangerous part.
Bedard, 48, a registered nurse at Tampa General Hospital, was pulled lifeless from the waters at Eagle's Nest on Sept. 11. She was resuscitated and remains in critical condition at a Gainesville hospital.
The state Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission on Wednesday released its findings on what happened when Bedard and boyfriend Rudy Banks of Williston, both experienced cave divers, entered the water.
It was a standard recreational dive on a quiet Sunday afternoon.
* * *
Shortly after 4:30 p.m., they began a fairly normal descent, said the 52-year-old Banks.
Divers must breathe different mixtures of gas at different depths, so Bedard breathed from a tank of pure oxygen until she had descended about 30 feet. Then she switched to nitrox, a combination of oxygen and nitrogen.
About 130 feet down, she switched to her primary tanks, which were supposed to contain a blend of oxygen, nitrogen and helium appropriate for that depth.
They didn't.
Banks realized something was wrong with Bedard, who switched back to her nitrox tank. The two began their ascent, according to witnesses' statements to the commission.
That is supposed to be a gradual process, since ascending too quickly can cause decompression sickness, also known as the bends. It also can cause a gas embolism, the presence of bubbles in the bloodstream that obstruct circulation.
But they didn't have that kind of time. An error in Bedard's tank mixtures left her breathing almost all helium and almost no oxygen.
At 100 feet, she was unconscious.
At 60 feet, she'd stopped breathing.
According to Bedard's friend and neighbor, Tom Lenfestey, Banks was left with a terrible choice: If he ascended rapidly, the trauma to Bedard's oxygen-starved body could be enormous. If he didn't, she certainly would die from a lack of oxygen during the gradual ascent.
Banks, too, risked decompression illness with an immediate ascent.
He brought her right up anyway.
"He knew (he might get) the bends, which is very painful, but you can deal with it," Lenfestey said. "He had to do that."
Unfortunately, "it was the ascent that began a kaleidoscope of challenges, and the injuries under which she now struggles," which included arterial gas embolisms, diving expert Gregg Stanton, who had just completed a dive with a buddy at Eagle's Nest, said in a statement to to the commission.
On the surface, Bedard had no pulse. Her eyes were open. Blood and foam poured from her mouth.
Banks got the attention of Stanton, formerly Florida State University's diving safety officer, and his diving buddy, James Garey, who serves on the University of South Florida's diving control board.
Garey flagged down Dan Pelland, a Spring Hill resident who happened to pull up to Eagle's Nest to shoot photographs. Garey used Pelland's phone to call 911, and Pelland helped Banks perform CPR on Bedard.
Stanton and Garey lauded Banks' actions to resuscitate Bedard, but Stanton noted that Eagle's Nest's remote location and unpaved entrance made any potential recovery far more problematic.
"That the victim was brought back to a self-breathing condition is a tribute to the rescue crew, and in particular to Mr. Banks," Stanton wrote. "His cool perseverance working with everyone brought results beyond expectations."
However, the medical response was "hampered by limited supplies and transport options," Stanton said.
"Taking the victim in on a backboard in (a sports utility vehicle) with no IV drip was surprising, but necessary, while the ambulance and helicopter waited at the edge of the forest. A good 30 minutes - probably more - could have been saved and better EMS care could have been available had a recovery plan been in place for the Eagle's Nest dive site."
* * *
Fish and Wildlife investigator Stephen Farmer agreed with Stanton and Garey that three elements contributed to Bedard becoming injured that day at Eagle's Nest:
--The gas was not properly mixed in her tri-mix tanks.
--The tanks were not properly analyzed to ensure the right proportions of gases.
--The isolation valve - an attachment to the manifold that connects the two tanks - was incorrectly left closed and never checked to ensure it was open.
Banks, who declined to speak with the Times, told investigators he mixed Bedard's tanks.
However, the experts said, that does not absolve Bedard of responsibility for her equipment.
"At the site - before the dive - I do not believe Ms. Bedard checked the contents of her breathing gas. Ultimately it is the responsibility of all divers to test their own breathing gases," Stanton wrote.
"Had she tested the isolation valve, she would have caught that the tanks were not evenly pressured ... and probably would have looked for further problems, leading to her canceling the dive. ... I conclude that she did not complete the safety drills as per the proper protocols."
Banks remains disconsolate after the accident, Lenfestey said, spending almost all of his time at the hospital, Shands at the University of Florida.
Doctors were surprised Bedard survived the first 24 hours following the dive, Lenfestey said. Her kidneys failed, and her heart stopped several times following her removal from a hyperbaric chamber to treat the embolisms.
It's a tough reality for friends and fellow divers who know Bedard as full of life.
"She's high entertainment, just great to be with," Lenfestey said. "She's full of, well, everything."
[Last modified September 29, 2005, 01:18:
Unfortunately, this all jibes with what I've heard about the incident....minus some specifics regarding the mix. If true, it took many mistakes and lots of complacency to occur.Quote:
Originally Posted by girliegills
Mike
(1) I can't really agree that diving trimix at EN is a "standard recreational dive."Quote:
Originally Posted by girliegills
(2) When we do advanced dives at remote sites, we accept the added risk that we can't dial 911 and have responders on site immediately. Are there any ambulances that could handle the access road at EN, or is there any place a helicopter could have landed?
More importantly, is there still any chance for Judi to recover? I hope so....
BD
Thank you for the post from the St Pete Times.
I hope that Judi can recover at least to a level to live a somewhat normal life.
It is a tradegy that this took place, and the events that led to the incident should help to remind the "expierenced" cavedivers that complancy will catch up in the end.
Hopefully the reminder of this will save lives in the future. This could have happened to any one of us that "know" what's in our tanks without analyzing (like when filling at a known shop with banked gas).
I will keep both Judi abd Rudy in my prayers, as I know this would be really tough on me if the roles were reversed.
Her lungs likely will heal. The main concern is brain damage. None of us want to see her turn into another Terry Schiavo.
I thought I would post this link here. It was forwarded to me by some friends. If you can help please do so.
http://www.judibedard.com
Thanks,
Ryan
Thanks for the link Ryan, That was the best post yet!
Cindy
Girliegills, Thanks for the information!
And the guy at Jackson Blue who died on his "oxygen" tank at deco that was actually full of Helium. http://www.iucrr.org/20011026_01.htmQuote:
Originally Posted by Cindy
The girl at Ginnie I think might have been somewhat rich on O2 but for the dive she did it is surprizing that she woud tox - (if you are talking about the March 09 2002 incident). http://www.iucrr.org/20020309_01.htm
Admittedly 36% or 37% is pretty high and after 90 minutes she could have been pushing some limits - but I can plug 38% into my computer simulator for a 90 minute Ginnie dive and still not max out the O2 bar - at least for any dive in the front half of the cave. Anyway it is clear that she did tox.
One time I checked my tanks before filling them for my next dive and found my stage bottle had 38.6% in it! before the dive I had analyzed it at the shop and labled 36.7%. Pretty rich for a Friedman's dive but luckily I guess the depths and times really weren't all that bad (actually even then my max PO2 was only 1.41 for the dive) - still a wake up call to pay atention to what's in the tank. At another location or another dive that might have been a very important thing to have known.
GaryQuote:
Originally Posted by Gary
There used to a time that 36% was fairly standard for Ginnie,and I remember being there on 37-38%. In retrospect pretty stupid due to the current and depth. It is a good thing that we got smarter about PPo2
I think the incident that was mentioned at Ginnie was found later not to be due to toxing,but a heart anomoly.
It is still speculation that Judi did not analyse her tanks (or performed the calculations incorrectly); the isolator being closed could cause problems if changing posts during the filling process, and at the time of analysis.
Speculation by on-site experts is still speculation. The truth will not be know until a proper report is made, or Judi can tell us what happened.
Keith
You are correct. But it is a good reminder to check our isolator valve and do gas analysis.Quote:
Originally Posted by kgault
Which is the ultimate problem here (whatever the facts) and ever repeated warning: always analyze your mix.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Know what you expect it to be, how to mix it, and what actually goes into your tank.
Analyze it to make sure it i what you expected.
Smell it to make sure the gas is clean and free of hyrdocarbons.
If you are mixing normoxic trimix your O2 is going to be 21% thoughout the top off regardless of the % of Helium in the final mix. I almost got boned once on an underfill even after I watched the O2 and Helium added. It analyzed fine but the mix ended up like 21/60 instead of the planned 21/40 - the O2 analyzed the same either way.
This would be fairly easy to have happen if you were mixing hypoxic (say, 11/50 or something similar) as there is no O2 added.
You stick the He in the left post with the isolator closed, then top with air on the right post. The gauge reads correctly.......
However, there is no oxygen in the left tank. If you switch to it underwater....
To have this happen you'd have to make multiple mistakes, including not having a contents label on the tank recorded as the result of an analysis. Even a simple O2 check (no He meter) would reveal either abnormally low or abnormally high numbers, depending on which post you checked.
Even with just an O2 meter its going to be off - even for Normoxic - if you stuck the helium into one tank and the other gas(es) into the other. Exception would be if you stuffed the Helium and O2 into the left post and then topped air into the right - that'd show 21% O2, but the O2 on the left side would be way off - but it would be HIGH, not low, and at 130' would be breathable (a quick "back of the calculator" check shows that mixing 21/25 would leave you with a 26% FO2 if you didn't top it due to going into the wrong post.)
Mixing Hypoxic still doesn't do it - stick the O2 and He for 10/60 into the left post, then top the right with air. Your gauge is right but the resulting FO2 (on a 3500 psi final pressure) is 3.5%. At 130' (~5 ATA) you have a 0.17 PO2 - that's breathable - not great, but breathable.
From this I surmise that analysis wasn't done, if the reports are correct.
I think we need to wait for more info on this one.... the required mistakes to jive with the reported "facts" are so many in number that I'm having trouble getting my arms around it. FO2 isn't something you take for granted on a deep dive..... do you?
My prayers are for her recovery.
As you know, some people are less tolerant of high PO2's than others.....it all depends on the conditions and the person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary
I talked to a guy one a dive boat one day that had a VERY low tolerance for high PO2's. After doing his OW Nitrox training, he toxed on a dive with a 1.4 PO2 for less than 5 minutes. He admitted the workload was high(strong current), but it's still suprising that somebody would tox less than 10 minutes into a dive, and at 1.4 for only 5 minutes. He was lucky he had a good buddy that got him topside(without embolizing him, amazingly).
Once he got back to diving a few months later, he said he started to feel a tingling in his lip with a 1.2 PO2 for 15 minutes. He remembered feeling a tingling lip the last time he toxed, so he aborted the dive and surfaced immediately.
They then did an experiment with him in a chamber. Put him on O2, and took him to 20'. Less than 10 minutes into it, he toxed. Non smoker, social drinker, very fit. Some people are simply more susceptible than others.
He dives only air now, to depths of less than 60', and less than 30 minutes.
Mike
Kelly said that he thought that it turned out that it wasn't a tox, but rather a heart anomoly in her case. That at least relieves me somewhat since she should have fallen within NOAA standard limits despite the unexpectedly high fO2.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeH
You are right some people are more sensitive and it's always wise to be careful but I got the impression the NOAA limits were set well within the bounds of what testing found could cause a tox.
So why would 21/60 vs. 21/40 be a bad thing? More HE is not going to hurt you is it? I'm just starting down the normoxic path and my impression was that more helium won't hurt given that it just displaces the nitrogen. (No one taught me this, I'm just learning stuff) I'm thinking maybe it's a problem for extreme depths or it changes the deco a bit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary
Well one problem is that I had a fill to 2400 instead of 3500 in my HP120s - so if I arrived at the site with that my dive was screwed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angie Reim
If I were actually to dive with that on my expected profile the difference in the mix would only require some longer deep stops and an extra 6 minutes of deco so that I'd likely manage on the original schedule without getting bent. Fortunately Helium is very forgiving that way and even if mybottom time extended out from 40 to 60 minutes the additional deco required by V-planner would only be 10 extra minutes (compared to the gas I planned for).
So while it could end up getting me bent I would probably get by OK or with only a minor bend whenI might have otherwise expecte to be OK. Luckily though we figured it out while gearing up at the next shop and figured out what happened and topped off the mix - otherwise I would have ended up sitting out the dive (not having enough gas to do the planned dive or having any deco tables printed for the gas I ended up with and no way to guess how much difference it would have made.)
The additional Helium changes the deco significantly but is otherwise a non-event. Nothing wrong with lots of He, other than the impact on the deco schedule.
Being off a couple of percent is not a big deal on Helium, but off by 20% would force recalculation of the decompression schedule - it'd be off significantly.
Is this right? Surely more He means less O2 and vice versa?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary
No. You add the He and O2, then top it off.... (usually with either air or EANx32)Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Richards
I think he is speaking of the outcome...the final numbers of a normoxic mix should 21% O2 regardless of how much helium/nitrogen there is in the mix. BillQuote:
Originally Posted by Simon Richards
Agreed it _should_ be, as that's just the definition of a normoxic mix. I'm just concerned that the implication is that if you aim for a normoxic mix you will always get a normoxic mix - that's generally not the case (unless you are using a 21/X premix and topping with air I suppose).Quote:
Originally Posted by wingman
Right - you generally add O2 and He (or sometime He and then O2). If the final mix is planed for around 21% then the He and O2 added will be in proportion to create 21% heilox when they are added - then you top with air. No matter how much air you add the percentage of O2 will remain 21% because that's the % O2 you started with and that's the % O2 you're adding. The only difference is in the Nitrogen you are adding in the air will shift the ballance of the remainder of the mix from Helium to Helium & Nitrogen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis
This would be the standard way to partial pressure mix the Trimix. If you are starting with or topping with a 10/50 premix of He and the ballance with Nitrox this wouldn't be the case. :wink:
OK with all that, but what you actually said was: "If you are mixing normoxic trimix your O2 is going to be 21% regardless of how much _Helium_ is added." - if you had said "regardless how much _air_ is added" then I would agree. I'm not trying to be picky, just trying to get to the bottom of what you said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary
Cheers,
Simon
You are right, more clearly it should have read:
If you are mixing normoxic trimix your O2 is going to be 21% thoughout the top off regardless of the % of Helium in the final mix.
I wonder if the old roads to Eagle's Nest can be improved for emergency access. It's a lot shorter to come in off of county road 550.Quote:
Originally Posted by eramosakarst
Unfortunately, the helicopter could have likely gotten into the parking lot there at the Nest, but the driving factor here is insurance requirements. Bayflite flies BK117 helicopters, which have a rotor span of approximately 36ft and require a total distance of approximately 40'x45' to land in. I'm pretty damn sure they could easily put one down in the parking area, facing toward the big green sign. I've put larger helos into smaller areas. As I said, though....insurance is the driving factor here. It's pretty unfortunate.
If they were to clear an area, and possibly even pave a helipad, right next to the parking area.....insurance(and sometimes the operators SOP's) would require that trained(by them) personnel be on the ground to advise the pilot of any hazards. Of course, as a pilot, this is a sensitive subject. I want somebody on the ground, whenever I'm landing in a tight area, to tell me about any hazards I may not be able to see easily....but at the same time, I recognize the severe limitations that places on my operations, and how it destroys the benefits of a helicopter in many instances.
I think the best thing to do would be to improve and open the road that Chip mentioned. Hopefully this is the direction that they decide to go.
Mike
I agree. The previous 3-mile road from S.R. 50 is a heck of a lot shorter and easier to drive than the current 11-mile road from U.S. 19.