Planning a scooter dive to Heinkel restriction for very first time ...

Hi guys,
I try to dive caves as much as possible few times a year but definitely not so much like some of you :) so I would like to use your experience in matter of getting to Heinkel restriction. If you could provide valuable info like average depth , max depth, exact distance, best way to get there and simply everything that will make our dive a pleasure and fun experience. I have done lots of Florida caves including Ginnie but never going further than Bats, and some point as far as approx. 1600 ft from the entrance. We will be diving sidemount open circuit (one of us rebreather) with scooters (two each).

Thanks for your help to determine either we will have what it takes to do that dive safely ;)

Best for all.
Sebastian

I plan for 4ata and 3100 feet. Mainline all the way for your first trip. And to be the a-hole, I think you should swim it before scootering there.

Sent from my LG-MS910 using Tapatalk 2

avg depth is probably 85'. there's a big gold line you can follow all the way there. the rocket ship ride on the way out is fun.
i think it's like 3k feet but I dunno. it's on all the maps...

Hit the gold line at the sign in the Gallery and keep going 3100' or so, when you get to white line tied into gold you found it.

Stage Rock, as its name implies, is a good place to drop your stage, assuming you carry one. You won't miss it on your left as you go in, as it has a big white rock ledge with the yellow main line running right over it.

My only suggestion is to do yourself a favor, recognizing that you will have a lot of flow pushing behind you on your way out, is to dial back your blade (or reduce your speed). You'll see more of the cave + will have more time to make adjustments in your rig & navigation as you exit.

Figure 30 minutes going in to the restriction on a moderate blade setting.

~3150' main line 35 minutes on a viper setting 4 (see more cave). avg depth 20 meters/64'. agreed with above, swim it before scootering.

I'll humor you for a minute..... How many stages do you guys use to get that far back and what kinda SAC rates do you typically have?

.55 no scooter, 3 stages.
.35-.4 with scoot, 1 stage and Al.

1. Ok so I'm replying and next questions to all,
- we're big guys 240 lbs, would say rather fit than not ;)

2. On average ocean wreck dive (thats what we do the most here in North East) my sac rate will be somewhere from 0.6 - 0.7 with full configuration, steel doubles, one or two stages, drysuit etc. but no scooter
With scooter would say somewhere from 0.45 and up.

3. How long does it take to swim there (from - to in average) just finning, in average not killing myself speed ?

4. Somebody mentioned the white line meaning I'm there, what that line is there for?

Hey what that white line is for there ? Since its tight in its not a jump so ??!

Just FYI - going to the Henkel was the only time I broke the old "don't scooter where you haven't swam" rule. I just made sure we were careful.

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Originally Posted by sebaworld

Hey what that white line is for there ? Since its tight in its not a jump so ??!

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The white line says, "Drop your scooters here."

Aaa ok. I would like to swim there first , I will repeat the question how long does it take to fin there in moderate speed in average ?

don't scooter where you haven't swam is a dumb rule anyway
the thought of swimming there makes my knees hurt just thinking about it

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Originally Posted by sebaworld

Aaa ok. I would like to swim there first , I will repeat the question how long does it take to fin there in moderate speed in average ?

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At 50 fpm, it is about 62 minutes, but that doesn't count dropping stage tanks, etc. I hope you plan to use stages, because if something happens (like a broken scooter) you will need the extra gas. Typically, I only use gas from the stages, and save my backgas (sidegas) for emergencies. FWIW, I have pushed a scooter out from 2500', and it was a looong swim. Very glad I had used a stage to get that far.

I was wondering if maybe this very interesting document might be able to help in planning the dive?

http://www.cavediver.net/old_reports/cdf_report_103.htm

Oliver

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Just FYI - going to the Henkel was the only time I broke the old "don't scooter where you haven't swam" rule. . .

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I've always thought you are a man with plenty of sense!

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

The white line says, "Drop your scooters here."

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I don't think this sign exists any longer.

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Originally Posted by sebaworld

Hey what that white line is for there ? Since its tight in its not a jump so ??!

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Someone had a silly idea to rip all the gold line out of the cave from the heinkle restriction until the p4200 restriction and replace it with white line.

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Originally Posted by sebaworld

Hi guys,
I would like to use your experience in matter of getting to Heinkel restriction. If you could provide valuable info like average depth , max depth, exact distance, best way to get there and simply everything that will make our dive a pleasure and fun experience.

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How to get there? Follow the yellow line just over 3000ft and you'll see a rock restriction. You'll be kind of let down when you see it-- nothing really special, just a well known (and worn) landmark.

Avg depth is 85 or so, max is 95-105 depending on water level.

When going to the heinkle and back, I use one stage, breath it slightly past 1/2 going in, and then nearly suck it dry coming out (the flow makes the exit faster than entrance). I don't touch back gas.

If you're going to say you've been by all means, go, but if you've seen little of Ginnie, you might want to try double domes, insulation rooms, sweet surprise, etc for a prettier dive.

BTW, this is how you scooter back there, and not with a tow line (LOL): http://vimeo.com/m/59951745

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Originally Posted by w ripley

BTW, this is how you scooter back there, and not with a tow line (LOL): http://vimeo.com/59951745

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bwahaha...That's pretty awesome! thanks Bill. :)

What's that number for the trucking school? Truck masters I think it is?

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Originally Posted by w ripley

BTW, this is how you scooter back there, and not with a tow line (LOL): http://vimeo.com/m/59951745

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looks good, me holding the breath isn't bad either but I'm afraid my butt will hurt a lot :)

Sounds fun to first do a scooter dive to dog leg, then a few around insulation room, stage/scooter to river intrusion, sweet surprise, main land jump and bear room...scooter in and swim out, swim in and scooter out, refine your swimming out gas calcs, enjoy the cave...

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Originally Posted by FW

At 50 fpm, it is about 62 minutes, but that doesn't count dropping stage tanks, etc. I hope you plan to use stages, because if something happens (like a broken scooter) you will need the extra gas. Typically, I only use gas from the stages, and save my backgas (sidegas) for emergencies. FWIW, I have pushed a scooter out from 2500', and it was a looong swim. Very glad I had used a stage to get that far.

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So let's say I would take two main cylinders and two stages with back gas ... what would be the optimal scenario in terms of dropping the stages ? I'm asking for your favorite with safe margins gas plan with stages in addition to main cylinders (number of tanks is not an issue :) in meaning of owning them not that I wanna carry 100 of those) I wanna do it just right on edge being reasonable and safe ... list your plan if you can that you consider good

Thanks, getting excited ...

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Originally Posted by sebaworld

So let's say I would take two main cylinders and two stages with back gas ... what would be the optimal scenario in terms of dropping the stages ? I'm asking for your favorite with safe margins gas plan with stages in addition to main cylinders (number of tanks is not an issue :) in meaning of owning them not that I wanna carry 100 of those) I wanna do it just right on edge being reasonable and safe ... list your plan if you can that you consider good

Thanks, getting excited ...

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I think somewhere along the line planning a double scooter, double stage dive in Ginnie you've slightly over complicated this. Perhaps doing a few scooter dives to build up your experience first would help?

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Originally Posted by jj1987

I think somewhere along the line planning a double scooter, double stage dive in Ginnie you've slightly over complicated this. Perhaps doing a few scooter dives to build up your experience first would help?

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Seems like for that kind of dive ... I was just thinking a while ago in my head to either take two scooters or one and extra gas. Sounds better I guess

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Originally Posted by sebaworld

So let's say I would take two main cylinders and two stages with back gas ... what would be the optimal scenario in terms of dropping the stages ? I'm asking for your favorite with safe margins gas plan with stages in addition to main cylinders (number of tanks is not an issue :) in meaning of owning them not that I wanna carry 100 of those) I wanna do it just right on edge being reasonable and safe ... list your plan if you can that you consider good

Thanks, getting excited ...

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Are you going solo? If not, one stage and one scooter each would be safe, assuming your SAC is good enough. To be safe solo, then either 2 scooters, or 2 stages, but not both, unless you are practicing for a bigger dive in the future. I don't drop the stage going the Henkel, I breathe it the whole time.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

I think somewhere along the line planning a double scooter, double stage dive in Ginnie you've slightly over complicated this. Perhaps doing a few scooter dives to build up your experience first would help?

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Excellent point!

If you aren't already familiar with stage bottle rock as a stage drop point you've got a LOT of cave between stage bottle rock and the Hinkle you should cover and get familiar with before going to the Hinkle.

The "doing it as a swim dive first" thumb rule is mostly about knowing the cave and understanding the gas requirements you need to get out. While I'm impressed with the people that actually did it as a swim dive there comes a point where it ceases to be reasonable to swim dive some places first. Fortunately with the main passage being fairly obvious and the gold line getting lost down a side passage on the way back isn't too much of an issue - assuming your primary light is working.

If you didn't know the cave back there and you lost your primary it would be a scary confusing slow trip out on a backup light. Haven't been back there in a couple years but I can remember problems trying to scooter coming out on a backup light. Some of the black walls and protrusions could be well camouflaged on a backup light and you could scooter strait into a solid wall. I took to bringing a backup primary when I was back there.

My first trip to the Hinkle someone had left a false horror arm stuck out from under a rock looking like a dead body in a cave collapse.

There was a perfect dive report from a bunch of years ago for your questions. Moonfuzzy's first trip to the Hinkle. There were 3 of us and when we got to the Hinkle her scooter imploded.

Practically the ideal "what if the first time you go to the Hinkle" scenario.

But there were 3 of us and she already knew the cave so it was a simple, by the book, exit. One of us towed her and one of us carried the scooter. Ended up dropping the scooter at stage bottle rock to pick up the next day (flooded scooter was heavy and unbalancing - exhausting and costing gas). Her wrist was also injured slightly in the implosion.

The complete story might be on the forum somewhere still (accident reports forum I would think) though I couldn't find it.


More gas is usually better but if you are thinking multi stages you are "probably" over complicating things. You should definitely have a better clue to your gas needs and exit planning then some advice off the internet.

I don't think the "swim it before you scooter it" rule means you have to swim 3000'. It means you swim 1000' on a dive. Next dive, scooter in to 1000', drop the scooter, swim another 1000'. Rinse, repeat, leap frog in, until you're where you want to be, but have taken your time swimming the length of the cave (just not all one dive). Remember why it is you're doing this stuff....to see cave you haven't seen? Then take your time and see the cave. You won't see the same cave on a scooter you see swimming.

Found the report in IRAP. Not much in it to help plan a dive though: http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...-to-the-Hinkle

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Originally Posted by sskasser

I don't think the "swim it before you scooter it" rule means you have to swim 3000'. It means you swim 1000' on a dive. Next dive, scooter in to 1000', drop the scooter, swim another 1000'. Rinse, repeat, leap frog in, until you're where you want to be, but have taken your time swimming the length of the cave (just not all one dive). Remember why it is you're doing this stuff....to see cave you haven't seen? Then take your time and see the cave. You won't see the same cave on a scooter you see swimming.

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That is exactly what "swim it first" really means. Plus keeping good records of gas consumption for various legs. Usually, someone would probably have already swum the first 1000' or so. I had swum about 2000' before scootering in Devil's Eye.

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Originally Posted by mdax

Sounds fun to first do a scooter dive to dog leg, then a few around insulation room, stage/scooter to river intrusion, sweet surprise, main land jump and bear room...scooter in and swim out, swim in and scooter out, refine your swimming out gas calcs, enjoy the cave...

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Where is exactly that "dog leg" checked few maps found and can't locate it ?
Also I can't find the second part of the map beyond 1800 ft on the gold line ...

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Originally Posted by FW

Are you going solo? If not, one stage and one scooter each would be safe, assuming your SAC is good enough. To be safe solo, then either 2 scooters, or 2 stages, but not both, unless you are practicing for a bigger dive in the future. I don't drop the stage going the Henkel, I breathe it the whole time.

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Nope, I'm going team of two / three but one is rebreather so will have to figure out smart team bailout ... I guess that complicates few things ? not as much for me but rebreather guy.

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Originally Posted by Gary

Excellent point!

If you aren't already familiar with stage bottle rock as a stage drop point you've got a LOT of cave between stage bottle rock and the Hinkle you should cover and get familiar with before going to the Hinkle.

The "doing it as a swim dive first" thumb rule is mostly about knowing the cave and understanding the gas requirements you need to get out. While I'm impressed with the people that actually did it as a swim dive there comes a point where it ceases to be reasonable to swim dive some places first. Fortunately with the main passage being fairly obvious and the gold line getting lost down a side passage on the way back isn't too much of an issue - assuming your primary light is working.

If you didn't know the cave back there and you lost your primary it would be a scary confusing slow trip out on a backup light. Haven't been back there in a couple years but I can remember problems trying to scooter coming out on a backup light. Some of the black walls and protrusions could be well camouflaged on a backup light and you could scooter strait into a solid wall. I took to bringing a backup primary when I was back there.

My first trip to the Hinkle someone had left a false horror arm stuck out from under a rock looking like a dead body in a cave collapse.

There was a perfect dive report from a bunch of years ago for your questions. Moonfuzzy's first trip to the Hinkle. There were 3 of us and when we got to the Hinkle her scooter imploded.

Practically the ideal "what if the first time you go to the Hinkle" scenario.

But there were 3 of us and she already knew the cave so it was a simple, by the book, exit. One of us towed her and one of us carried the scooter. Ended up dropping the scooter at stage bottle rock to pick up the next day (flooded scooter was heavy and unbalancing - exhausting and costing gas). Her wrist was also injured slightly in the implosion.

The complete story might be on the forum somewhere still (accident reports forum I would think) though I couldn't find it.


More gas is usually better but if you are thinking multi stages you are "probably" over complicating things. You should definitely have a better clue to your gas needs and exit planning then some advice off the internet.

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part funny and part stressful but I guess it was a good learning experience that makes us better divers

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Originally Posted by sebaworld

Nope, I'm going team of two / three but one is rebreather so will have to figure out smart team bailout ... I guess that complicates few things ? not as much for me but rebreather guy.

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Two 80s would be more than enough bailout. Two 40s would be marginal, unless he had a great OW SAC rate.

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Originally Posted by FW

Two 80s would be more than enough bailout. Two 40s would be marginal, unless he had a great OW SAC rate.

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RB bailout from 3000
4ATA at a swim rate of 50 fpm = 60 minutes of 4xSAC
even with a SAC of .5 that works out to 120cf without stress or CO2
2 - 80's is cutting it too close for my comfort
I plan 1 - 80 per 1000 foot of penetration

But that is just me!

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Originally Posted by sebaworld

Nope, I'm going team of two / three but one is rebreather so will have to figure out smart team bailout ... I guess that complicates few things ? not as much for me but rebreather guy.

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This should be simple

Sac * ATA * (distance/exit speed) * 2 plus some conservatism should always be your bailout, OC or CCR, swimming or scootering whatever.

I don't mean this in a rude way, but have you taken any training or even mentoring on how to use scooters? I don't believe in the swim before you scooter theory-- heck there are caves I've never flipped a fin tip in, but if you can't plan a scooter dive in the most tourist of tourist caves without internet forum advice, you might want to tone it back a notch...

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Originally Posted by jj1987

This should be simple

Sac * ATA * (distance/exit speed) * 2 plus some conservatism should always be your bailout, OC or CCR, swimming or scootering whatever.

I don't mean this in a rude way, but have you taken any training or even mentoring on how to use scooters? ... if you can't plan a scooter dive in the most tourist of tourist caves without internet forum advice, you might want to tone it back a notch...

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Of course I can plan it, wreck penetration that I do on regular basis is similar or worse due to lots of falling stuff inside and silt to diving this cave but you for sure know that plan is plan and listening others that have done that is different and just make your plan better ...

From different story ... how big (wide, narrow ?) is that passage that let you bypass the lips ? Just out of curiosity its so close and never swam through ...
Also if you would vote for best looking room within that 2000 ft range which one that will be ? Thinking for a plan for few days of diving Ginnie.

Thanks for your time and effort giving your input.

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Originally Posted by sebaworld

From different story ... how big (wide, narrow ?) is that passage that let you bypass the lips ? Just out of curiosity its so close and never swam through ...
Also if you would vote for best looking room within that 2000 ft range which one that will be ? Thinking for a plan for few days of diving Ginnie.

Thanks for your time and effort giving your input.

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Not big enough to scooter through. A very tight fit for backmount, easy sidemount.

You can get a nice map of Devil's at Ginnie, and some other N FL cave shops.

SWIM IT FIRST and plan your swim by distance and sac rate. If I can swim it you certainly can (59yrs yound).
Staged an 80 at stage rock
carried 200 cu ft bail cylinders
did the swim on rebreather total run time 3hrs.
Gabe

swim it first is a ridiculous rule. nearly all of the new exploration I've done has been on scooters.
I think brett and andy should have swam at phantom springs before they scootered it too. c'mon...

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

swim it first is a ridiculous rule. nearly all of the new exploration I've done has been on scooters.
I think brett and andy should have swam at phantom springs before they scootered it too. c'mon...

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Depends on how much previous scooter experience you have had. These guys seem new, and scootering a wreck is nothing like scootering a cave.

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

swim it first is a ridiculous rule. nearly all of the new exploration I've done has been on scooters.
I think brett and andy should have swam at phantom springs before they scootered it too. c'mon...

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It's not a rule, it's just good advice. Of course it doesn't apply to every situation. No way would I want to lay line in large cave at 300+ feet swimming, but at 100 feet depth? I'd rather swim every time, you'll do a much better job.

Lots of good advice has been offered already. I would think either a cave DPV class or even a few less ambitious (relatively) scooter dives in Ginnie and the answers will become obvious.

Andy

Sebastian - can you do me a favor and send my stuff back to me before you head for Ginnie? Or give me a call.

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Originally Posted by sebaworld

1. Ok so I'm replying and next questions to all,
- we're big guys 240 lbs, would say rather fit than not ;)

2. On average ocean wreck dive (thats what we do the most here in North East) my sac rate will be somewhere from 0.6 - 0.7 with full configuration, steel doubles, one or two stages, drysuit etc. but no scooter
With scooter would say somewhere from 0.45 and up.

3. How long does it take to swim there (from - to in average) just finning, in average not killing myself speed ?

4. Somebody mentioned the white line meaning I'm there, what that line is there for?

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1. Your crew is in good shape and most of you can bench press a small house. Is Damien on his meg?

2. Because its your first time, with SAC rates like that I'd use 1200 feet pr 80, it could be much less but you need to stay in the current and have it push you out, which is quite nice, but that'll take a bit to figure out. When swimming in you obviously want to stay out of the current and that can be a little tricky the first few times.

3. The first time I went to the Hinkle I was alone with my REVO and 3 stages (dropped one on the shelf) and it took me 1.5 hours, now 60 minutes.

4. The gold line ends and changes to white line in/at the Hinkle thats between 3100 and 3200 feet in, its a very easy dive because its very big with flow to clear up any "mistakes".

You may want to try the roller coster shortcut on scooters at max speed, its so much fun but do that at night so you wont hurt the viz for other divers.

Ginnie is often criticized as being a "tourist cave" and it is.....so what, most that say that are jackasses that in all liklyhood dont dive very much or very well and havent seen much of Ginnie. There are very cool tunnels in the first 700 feet of Ginnie that most dont know exist, and some of the things well beyond the Hinkle are amazing.

Ginnie is one of the last places where the diver is given the responsibility to make their own decisions, there are over 7 miles of cave and usually good viz, so it may be a tourist cave but its also one of the best caves.

You guys will have a great time.

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

swim it first is a ridiculous rule. nearly all of the new exploration I've done has been on scooters.
I think brett and andy should have swam at phantom springs before they scootered it too. c'mon...

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Listen sweetheart, its not a ridiculous rule, its not even a rule, its good sound advise.

Comparing this situation to Brett and Andy is as reckless as your absurd comment, those two are the first to say DONT DO WHAT WE DO, ITS VERY VERY DANGERIOUS. It makes no sense to add risk to a simple and easy dive like the Hinkle, first timers should swim it because it gives them an understanding of the environment and requirements during a bail out situation.

But do what you want to do, no one really cares but little head maybe if you can please try and restrain yourself from posting stupid things like that......that is if you can.

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Originally Posted by Jont

Listen sweetheart, its not a ridiculous rule, its not even a rule, its good sound advise.

Comparing this situation to Brett and Andy is as reckless as your absurd comment, those two are the first to say DONT DO WHAT WE DO, ITS VERY VERY DANGERIOUS. It makes no sense to add risk to a simple and easy dive like the Hinkle, first timers should swim it because it gives them an understanding of the environment and requirements during a bail out situation.

But do what you want to do, no one really cares but little head maybe if you can please try and restrain yourself from posting stupid things like that......that is if you can.

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Thanks peaches. Ill take it under advisement and we'll agree to disagree. I don't feel it's unsafe to scooter to the henkle without swimming it first so long as your plan is solid. And unlike others here I'm not planning his dive for him.

I assume this dude has a dpv card if he's scootering at ginnie and can make his own decisions.

Jont,

There is no need to call people names to get your point across. I have warned you before about breaking rules. This is an official warning, next time, you are gone.

Dang, dude, very little cave diving experience and you are scootering to the H. Who was your instructor?

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Originally Posted by FW

Jont,

There is no need to call people names to get your point across. I have warned you before about breaking rules. This is an official warning, next time, you are gone.

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Forrest I think you're dropping the war hammer a little too quickly. Isn't it apparent by the loving names that they're probably dating. This is 2013. It's a new world.

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Originally Posted by rddvet

Forrest I think you're dropping the war hammer a little too quickly. Isn't it apparent by the loving names that they're probably dating. This is 2013. It's a new world.

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You are absolutely correct and quite frankly I'm offended the Forrest would interpret a term of endearment obviously meant for my boyfriend as name calling, I thought this was a more tolerant environment, I may have to get the ACLU involved....

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Originally Posted by Jont

You are absolutely correct and quite frankly I'm offended the Forrest would interpret a term of endearment obviously meant for my boyfriend as name calling, I thought this was a more tolerant environment, I may have to get the ACLU involved....

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I actually didn't realize the situation till I read your signature. It was like a lightbulb going off.

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Originally Posted by rddvet

I actually didn't realize the situation till I read your signature. It was like a lightbulb going off.

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HAHAHA, well played.

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Originally Posted by TraceMalin

Dang, dude, very little cave diving experience and you are scootering to the H. Who was your instructor?

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You, from what a little bird told me :)

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Originally Posted by TraceMalin

Dang, dude, very little cave diving experience and you are scootering to the H. Who was your instructor?

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I can't tell that here but he was simply the best you could find :)

Trace you know me and Damian ... we're Polish and pushing the limits (still in a safe way in our minds) is our nature, you can't change your nature you might try to keep it on the leash sometimes but ...

That Polish driving license I gave you wasn't for scooters, Mr. Ican Jetski.

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Originally Posted by sebaworld

Also if you would vote for best looking room within that 2000 ft range which one that will be ? Thinking for a plan for few days of diving Ginnie.

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The obvious rooms would be Double Domes, Ice Room, Big Room, White Room and the nice rooms up on the Double Lines circuit (the passage leading between the Ice Room and Double Lines) but the easiest and most missed is the big (high) room on the main line at about 1000' if you just stop and look up - or the stuff up on the ceiling above hill 400 - and several spots on the main line between 1400' and 1700'. I also like the room as you jump off the hill 400 line about 1200' that leads to the ice room etc (not The Bats the other passage). Ice Room is nice (shame the passages getting there have been trashed).

Its your mind that is the scariest place ;) but you will need to find another buddy as i have saved Damian from this PUE Team event. He will be involve in a ccr cave training event. This time of year at ginnie they are not well policing scooter divers so you can likely get away without the dpv card. FWIW while your plan does not violate your current certification you are rushing past the most beautiful places in ginnie to see what is really NOT that pretty just to say you went to the Hinkle. Best bob 6077653942

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Originally Posted by sebaworld

I can't tell that here but he was simply the best you could find :)

Trace you know me and Damian ... we're Polish and pushing the limits (still in a safe way in our minds) is our nature, you can't change your nature you might try to keep it on the leash sometimes but ...

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Originally Posted by bobsherwood

...you are rushing past the most beautiful places in ginnie to see what is really NOT that pretty just to say you went to the Hinkle....

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True, and goal oriented dives are the most dangerous kind. If you hit turn pressure 200' short of your objective, are you going to turn, or let the "goal" cause you to abandon all your training?

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Originally Posted by FW

True, and goal oriented dives are the most dangerous kind. If you hit turn pressure 200' short of your objective, are you going to turn, or let the "goal" cause you to abandon all your training?

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These guys have already abandoned all their training. :-(

There was a day when Sebastian had been mature enough to do the walk of shame. I was so proud of his sound decision. Thought we had nipped visual jumps and too far too fast in the bud.

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Originally Posted by bobsherwood

you are rushing past the most beautiful places in ginnie to see what is really NOT that pretty just to say you went to the Hinkle.

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Several years ago there was some exploration going on way past the Hinkel, and I asked one of the guys when was the last time he had been through the Catacombs (the coolest part of the Devil System, IMO). Several months later he told me he went through them and I was right - it was pretty cool, indeed.

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Originally Posted by bobsherwood

Its your mind that is the scariest place ;) but you will need to find another buddy as i have saved Damian from this PUE Team event. 6077653942

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Is that what he told you ? :)

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Originally Posted by bobsherwood

Its your mind that is the scariest place ;) but you will need to find another buddy as i have saved Damian from this PUE Team event. He will be involve in a ccr cave training event. This time of year at ginnie they are not well policing scooter divers so you can likely get away without the dpv card. FWIW while your plan does not violate your current certification you are rushing past the most beautiful places in ginnie to see what is really NOT that pretty just to say you went to the Hinkle. Best bob 6077653942

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... and by the way since I have an impression that you think it's me only wanna do it you're wrong , as me and my dive buddy have same desire for an idea, you and me know each other well and I'm very caution that it's a team decision and everybody has to be 100% comfortable with the dive, you also know my personality and that I can dive no further than lips and still have fun and enjoy time with my team so either we gonna do it or not its fine as long as we dive ! Best for everybody.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Several years ago there was some exploration going on way past the Hinkel, and I asked one of the guys when was the last time he had been through the Catacombs (the coolest part of the Devil System, IMO). Several months later he told me he went through them and I was right - it was pretty cool, indeed.

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Catacombs are cool, true. Trace took us there watching us digging our heads into the mud like an ostrich (hope it wasn't that untouched mud forming since 1000 000 years :)

All I'll tell you is that if your a decent experienced, trained scooter pilot and your being led by someone experienced with the system, a scooter dive to the Hinkle isn't any big deal at all. it's gold line all the way isn't it?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

All I'll tell you is that if your a decent experienced, trained scooter pilot and your being led by someone experienced with the system, a scooter dive to the Hinkle isn't any big deal at all. it's gold line all the way isn't it?

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Yes, but they are not, on either count.

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Originally Posted by FW

Yes, but they are not, on either count.

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Are you sure they dont have the experience? I'm not so sure, I know Sebastian and Damien, in fact I'm meeting Sebastien tomorrow in New Jersey, they are in fact very well trained and quite skillful in the water.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jont

Are you sure they dont have the experience? I'm not so sure, I know Sebastian and Damien, in fact I'm meeting Sebastien tomorrow in New Jersey, they are in fact very well trained and quite skillful in the water.

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So well skilled the seek out dive planning on the internet. Sounds like winning a gold medal at the Special Olympics.

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Originally Posted by Caver95

So well skilled the seek out dive planning on the internet. Sounds like winning a gold medal at the Special Olympics.

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LOL, now thats funny but not accurate.

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Originally Posted by Caver95

So well skilled the seek out dive planning on the internet. Sounds like winning a gold medal at the Special Olympics.

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As someone involved with Special Olympics a lot in the past, I should take offense. But knowing Sebastian makes me see the humor in it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kwinter

As someone involved with Special Olympics a lot in the past, I should take offense. But knowing Sebastian makes me see the humor in it.

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I always said you were "special"

There was a Star Wars teaching moment like this.... finish the training (like stage/dpv class maybe) and build some significant experience in the system.

Love you guys, really I do! But, uh, you can see where there might be some holes in this, right?

You are all well trained, but none of your training would support this approach (nor previous
instructors or mentors).

Yeah, it'll probably be fine. But how confortable are your three awesome children and your young beautiful wife with the concept of "probably", Polish or not?

Dude, I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.....

You are my Friend first, a bright and enterprising guy as well, and I mean to take nothing away from your significant skill set and wreck diving experience. That said, dude, this is ballsier than is necessary.

I think you should hang more with my Jamacian friends.

Whatever the hell you do, come back home, upright, OK buddy?

There are Bold Divers, and there are Old Divers....

(When Bob, Trace, and Forrest are all making the same point in different ways, that's kinda a big deal)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kwinter

As someone involved with Special Olympics a lot in the past, I should take offense. But knowing Sebastian makes me see the humor in it.

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Did you win, place or show?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jont

Are you sure they dont have the experience? I'm not so sure, I know Sebastian and Damien, in fact I'm meeting Sebastien tomorrow in New Jersey, they are in fact very well trained and quite skillful in the water.

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I'm pretty sure this was the team Trace was telling me about that is less than 10 dives post full cave. So, by now, it can't be many more than that. Lets say 20 full cave dives. Is that enough to go to the Henkel, especially considering they are coming on here asking for advice on how to plan the dive?

I'm really really glad I'm not their instructor. This is the reason I'm so selective in who I take as my students.
Trace, in the future, please let this be a lesson to you. You thought you had problems nipped in the bud. Next time, assume they are only behaving until they get the card. Eject them from the class, no refund, no cert.

Thanks God for IANTD and the line in the standards that says if I don't believe they have the mindset for cave diving (despite having all the skills) I DO NOT have to cert them.

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Originally Posted by sebaworld

I can't tell that here but he was simply the best you could find :)

Trace you know me and Damian ... we're Polish and pushing the limits (still in a safe way in our minds) is our nature, you can't change your nature you might try to keep it on the leash sometimes but ...

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This is all the information I needed. As soon as I got this vibe from the students, class would have been over.
For those of you reading, if this is the mindset you have and you're looking at cave training, don't consider me as your instructor. I only certify people who I believe have the proper/safe mindset for the sport. Anything less is detrimental to yourself, your family, and the sport itself.

My instructor threatened me with bodily harm if I so much as touched a scooter before I got my Abe Davis award.

I think it's presumptuous to assail his instructor based on a post here, there is no way to know how he articulated his "nature" while in class. Some dudes I've met through diving, climbing and shooting from other countries (primarily Russia) have a totally different acceptable level of danger to fun ratio than I think is sane.
The saddest part is that scootering to the Hinkle isn't anywhere near the coolest part of Ginnie. I can't understand why you'd want to skip mainland, sweet surprise, insulation room and all the other cool dives...for pete's sake scooter in and swim out to these other great places first!

Do you really think I would have certified them if they hadn't shown sound MATURITY and DISCIPLINE (once I broke them of trusting the instructor) in class? I doubt their intro to cave instructor would have certified them either. Damian is diving with an instructor I consider to be one of the best you could ever find as a regular dive buddy. I'd be amazed to discover that he was even part of this plan. The OP was the strongest diver both in skill and personality in the class and others naturally looked to him for leadership. By the end of class he showed himself to be a true team player and leader who made decisions for team safety even if it meant denying himself personal goals.

Well at least Trace doesn't let his female students slide by just because they are cute. If that was the case I would be finished already and teaching you a thing or two.

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

[/U][/I][/B]

This is all the information I needed. As soon as I got this vibe from the students, class would have been over.
For those of you reading, if this is the mindset you have and you're looking at cave training, don't consider me as your instructor. I only certify people who I believe have the proper/safe mindset for the sport. Anything less is detrimental to yourself, your family, and the sport itself.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

I'm pretty sure this was the team Trace was telling me about that is less than 10 dives post full cave. So, by now, it can't be many more than that. Lets say 20 full cave dives. Is that enough to go to the Henkel, especially considering they are coming on here asking for advice on how to plan the dive?

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So it makes people more responsible if they DON'T ask for help when they want to be extra cautious???? What a self-righteous windbag you are!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mdax

I think it's presumptuous to assail his instructor based on a post here, there is no way to know how he articulated his "nature" while in class. Some dudes I've met through diving, climbing and shooting from other countries (primarily Russia) have a totally different acceptable level of danger to fun ratio than I think is sane.
The saddest part is that scootering to the Hinkle isn't anywhere near the coolest part of Ginnie. I can't understand why you'd want to skip mainland, sweet surprise, insulation room and all the other cool dives...for pete's sake scooter in and swim out to these other great places first!

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I think you guys misunderstand me. I wasn't at all assailing Trace. I don't blame him for his student's actions. It's the reason why I said, "I'm glad I wasn't their instructor." Just as I don't blame Trace, I wouldn't want others to blame me if a student decided to go against what I taught them.

Trace, I apologize if you thought this was an attack on you. That was NOT my intent.

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Originally Posted by oreo

Well at least Trace doesn't let his female students slide by just because they are cute. If that was the case I would be finished already and teaching you a thing or two.

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What on earth are you trying to say? Is this even relevant?
I'm into older women, anything you want to teach me, uh....

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Originally Posted by kwinter

So it makes people more responsible if they DON'T ask for help when they want to be extra cautious???? What a self-righteous windbag you are!

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Kwinter, have you been reading the thread? If he wanted to be extra cautious, he'd wait to do a dive to 3200+ feet when he's got less than 20 full cave dives under his belt, you know, just like a few people on this thread AND HIS INSTRUCTOR have cautioned him to do.
But, I'd be happy to discuss it with you in person if you'd like.

But really, these rules we have set really aren't important. DPV Class: Not Important. Cave Training: Not Important. Common Sense: Not Important. Following the advice of a half dozen seasoned divers: Not Important.

I mean seriously, it was a handful of goobers who created these rules over the last 30+ years. And rules are made to be broken. Training isn't for everyone.

Self righteous huh? Nope, just RIGHT. There's a difference. God Forbid I stand for the rules that greater people before me wrote, especially for someone at such a beginner level in cave diving.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

What on earth are you trying to say? Is this even relevant?
I'm into older women, anything you want to teach me, uh....

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Ouch, older women? I'll teach you one thing, never mention age to a woman unless you are selling insurance. ;-)

I learned that years ago. I just chose not to exercise that knowledge today.

You two should get a room before the motels fill up for the funeral.

LOL, that's funny Trace.

I thought you had to have 100 dives at full cave before you were allowed to take the scooter class, or was that just my instructors rule?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

I thought you had to have 100 dives at full cave before you were allowed to take the scooter class, or was that just my instructors rule?

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I was under the impression that it was 50 post full. Please someone enlighten us.

I believe standards are 50 post full cave.

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Originally Posted by cavewoman

I was under the impression that it was 50 post full. Please someone enlighten us.

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several of the agencies ask for 50, correct.

There's not a shred of fact posted in this entire thread about the diver or posters qualifications to do the dive he was asking about.

The only fact we have is that a whole bunch of people have beaten him up for asking about a cave dive on a cave diving web site......doesnt make to much sense.

Just because someone asked about a dive doesnt mean anything and nothing should be inferred simply because he posed a question.

If you know the diver isn't qualified state why, how you know this and your relationship to the diver.

Little would be gained by asking those in the know to plead their case to the forum. What has been gained is that the forum has allowed those who do have a relationship with the OP to have a social media intervention and plead their case to him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TraceMalin

Little would be gained by asking those in the know to plead their case to the forum. What has been gained is that the forum has allowed those who do have a relationship with the OP to have a social media intervention and plead their case to him.

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I enjoyed meeting you at Wayne's and having dinner in Fort white this past December or January (I forget) but with respect I disagree.

The poster is a big boy and can take care of himself (he is in fact a very experienced diver), he chose to post about this topic so he can also deal with the consequences of his choice.

So to be blunt "proof up" or "shut up".

If he has 2 post cert cave dives obviously there's a problem but if that number is 50 its not so clear.

My point is there's no fact to support some of the statements and assumptions being made and the "if he's posting on line he doesn't have the experience" statement is flawed thinking, every day I ask many questions I know the answer to, the reason I ask them isnt to find an answer its to look at body language, disposition, reasoning, reaction, etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jont

My point is there's no fact to support some of the statements and assumptions being made and the "if he's posting on line he doesn't have the experience" statement is flawed thinking, every day I ask many questions I know the answer to, the reason I ask them isnt to find an answer its to look at body language, disposition, reasoning, reaction, etc.

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Just out of personal interest: How many post full-cave dives did they make, do they have a DPV certification as required in the Devils system? Do they have any experience with running/towing two scooters each, as planned? Will they bring stage tanks, if so, do they have a stage/multi-stage certification?

My motivation for asking is just such, as to try and understand to what extent others think it is OK to "bend" the training/experience limits.

Oliver

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nakatomi

Just out of personal interest: How many post full-cave dives did they make, do they have a DPV certification as required in the Devils system? Do they have any experience with running/towing two scooters each, as planned? Will they bring stage tanks, if so, do they have a stage/multi-stage certification?

My motivation for asking is just such, as to try and understand to what extent others think it is OK to "bend" the training/experience limits.

Oliver

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Thank you for asking about their experience instead of assuming they have none just because they posted their question. I think that was Jon's point, and I agree completely.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jont

There's not a shred of fact posted in this entire thread about the diver or posters qualifications to do the dive he was asking about...

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How about these?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sebaworld

Hi guys,
I try to dive caves as much as possible few times a year but definitely not so much like some of you...
Sebastian

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by sebaworld

... On average ocean wreck dive (thats what we do the most here in North East) my sac rate will be somewhere from 0.6 - 0.7 with full configuration, steel doubles, one or two stages, drysuit etc. but no scooter
With scooter would say somewhere from 0.45 and up....

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jont

The poster is a big boy and can take care of himself (he is in fact a very experienced diver)...

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There is a world of difference between "a very experienced diver" and a very experienced cave diver.

Most of the recoveries we have done in caves have been "very experienced divers". A lot of them OW instructors.

Sadly a lot of experience in other types of diving only seems to give people over confidence in their limited experience in caves.

I have been cave diving for 44 years, and scootering ever since they were first used in caves. I wouldn't begin to consider myself qualified to dive a wreck, or dive under ice. Why would you think an experienced wreck diver could do the same type of dives as an experienced cave diver?

What worries me most about this thread is the "goal oriented" plan. Some of the best cave divers have been lost doing goal oriented dives. Sheck Exley, Steve Burman, Ron Simmons, and Agnes Milowka come to mind.

At the very most, the plan should be to go into Ginnie, and practice with scooters, stages, towing spare scooters, and each other, if they have never done that before.

I haven't seen an answer to the question posted earlier asking how many post full-cave dives they have, or if they have had any scooter training, or at least practice in all the scooter skills, like towing while buddy breathing, etc.

If Peacock doesn't get blown out, I am planning a refresher scooter dive Thursday with Paul H back to the Maple Leaf and who knows where else. Then Peacock, Fri & Sat or Manatee. Don't keep a log book but receipts indicate 100+ dives. Besides, I'm with the MAN!

I like that, no logbook, but receipts. Me, I don't keep receipts, I see them as incriminating evidence :)