Indian Springs is Open Again

It’s official, Cave Connections has leased Indian Springs and it is now back open for diving. Dives will continue on a guided basis for now. Diving can be scheduled now by email to steve@caveconnectionsflorida.com, by phone at 850-766-7731 or by contacting a guide from the guide list. The sign in sheet and waivers will be at Cave Connections. The process will be similar to Jackson Blue but you will need to schedule in advance. The new owners have opened a bunk house for divers to use for the next week. The accommodations are free for this weekend if you are willing to come out on Monday to help with a little cleanup work. There is a bathroom with two hot showers in the bunk house.

We are in process of contacting all the past guides and will update the list as we go. The current list is posted on the Cave Connections website. It is our goal to maintain the safety level of the past while extending diving options. We will slowly implement our plan as time goes on. For now, dives are $40.00 each dive. A seasonl pass will be available shortly. It is the desires of the landowners to utilize the spring as one of the many assets of the property. Their goal is to increase revenue from all aspects of the land. With such, we will start the evaluation process for allowing divers meeting the skill, abilities and discipline to become what we term “an independent diver.” These divers will have the ability to sign in, pay the fee and go dive with other independent divers. As it stands, divers will need to complete a minimum of 3 guided dives with a minimum of two different guides, at which time the guides will meet and discuss the divers’ qualifications of meeting the independent diver status. DPV use is still allowed but will require a minimum of 2 guided DPV dives in which the diver will need to plan and execute the dives. The guide will evaluate the planning, diving and skill level of the DPV diver. If you meet the qualifications you will become an independent DPV diver.

This is an exciting time for Cave Connections and just the first step in the process of bringing safe diving back to Wakulla County. We look forward to seeing everyone diving here and hope this is a valuable transaction that will compliment the diving at Emerald, Clear-cut, Harvey’s and the rest of the many caves in Wakulla County.

For more information, please see the Indian Page on the Cave Connections Website at www.caveconnectionsflorida.com.

So, what if I show up with my side mount Hammer Meg? Tomorrow?


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Awesome news! Thanks for all the hard work that made this happen Steve.

Hope to make it over there when my crazy work situation calms down.

This made my day. Best cave dive in Florida is back :)

Great news!

It is good news, now we have to show them they can make money off of us without too much hassle, this hopefully will be the "model" that we can show off to other landowners.

woot!!!

Will my Queen of Diamonds be welcome? (meg)

Dive safe,

Celia

Good news, great job!! Can I bring my rEvo and dive it?

$40 a dive is way to expensive in my opinion

Can the Old Fat Guy bring his double-hose Mistral and steel 72? (You know he's bound to ask.)

what about the old guides? I see the list doesn't include them

I'm with Celia and Jim on this. I too would love to dive Indian but it would be with the use of a rebreather. Last time I was at Indian was when I was part of a group that helped put the steps in at Emerial.

Shoot, boat dives in south Florida are $60 to $80. $40 is fine with me. We spend thousands on our dive gear and training, why cry about a few dollars to dive once in a while. Just my opinion. Thanks for all your hard work, I hope to dive there.

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Originally Posted by NorthWoodsDiver

$40 a dive is way to expensive in my opinion

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Originally Posted by Diverlee

Shoot, boat dives in south Florida are $60 to $80.

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But boats and diesel fuel cost a lot of money. We're spoiled by $25 Jackson Blue, $27 Ginnie, <$10 for Peacock, Jug, and Madison Blue, not to mention free at Little River, Twin, Hole...

I thought cave diving would support the economy up there?

$40 seems reasonable to me, I'll pay it and like it. Indian is sweet.

Forty dollars??? Too expensive
2/10 would not dive

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

Forty dollars??? Too expensive
2/10 would not dive

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More room on the schedule for those of us who will pay.


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Originally Posted by NorthWoodsDiver

$40 a dive is way to expensive in my opinion

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Then go elsewhere? I don't get you guys-- you promised Wakulla Co that cave divers would be bankrolling the whole town, and now a cave dive isn't worth a tank of gas? Sigh. This is exactly why everyone was LOL'ing at the economic survey for Wakulla Co used recently.

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

what about the old guides? I see the list doesn't include them

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They're being contacted according to CC's facebook post. I'd assume no one is being listed until they OK working with the new rules.

Just a quick note. Please read the diving policy at www.caveconnectionsflorida.com. As of now, rebreathers are on hold until we have time to evaluate the diving of them. Colin and I both have breathers and it is our decision to hold off until we can speak with breather divers in person to make an informed decision. Our decision is based on past diving policy as well as our knowledge of breathers. Please be patient while we work through this procedure.

As for the pricing, we only influence the pricing. During the process of establishing the diving at Indian Springs under the new ownership, it was decided to start with a cost of 30-50 per dive. We settled on 40. As I have said in the past, this price will change based on diver participation. The more that show up the better chance this price will be lowered. The owners have spent a considerable amount of funds to acquire the property. They have big plans for it all. With that comes investment capitalization. In simple words, we have to show them the money but also maintain the safety. I hope to have the season passes up soon which will have the potential to lower the average cost of diving for those who dive frequently. Sure there are free sites and cheaper sites but then again those are not Indian. Most know I am an advocate of free diving but I also know with the investment of buying up land for spring access will come fees. If anyone wishes to buy property and allow free diving, I will be supportive 110%. I am sure others will line up to join in. Unfortunately, this is not very realistic when it comes to privately owned land.
On another note, there is property under contract as we speak which will have cave diving. All those who wish for it to be free of charge diving please step forward. We will divide the purchase price by the number who stepped up and each person will need to pony up the funds. Once the transaction is complete diving will remain free for all from that day forth. Please note, there will be absolutely no discussion of how much it cost any one single person for access. This will be a truly joint effort where everyone gets access regardless of investment. The moral of the story….be realistic and patient!!

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Originally Posted by jj1987

you promised Wakulla Co that cave divers would be bankrolling the whole town.

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Forty dollars per dive doesn't leave much in the wallet for restaurants, gas stations, hotels, etc.

If you dont like it, dont go. I will gladly pay forty bucks for Indian.

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Originally Posted by MK7

Forty dollars per dive doesn't leave much in the wallet for restaurants, gas stations, hotels, etc.

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it doesn't? it sounds like you can't afford to cave dive

I have absolutely no problem with the fee, or the restrictions. This in the right direction. Caves being opened!

Thank you Steve and everyone else that helped.

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Originally Posted by MK7

Forty dollars per dive doesn't leave much in the wallet for restaurants, gas stations, hotels, etc.

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Hmmmmm not sure if you realize how much the cost of dive gas will be if forty is too much

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Originally Posted by NorthWoodsDiver

$40 a dive is way to expensive in my opinion

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For the best dive in fl? Nah... try chartering even an inshore boat to some tourist trap dive site. $40 is a steal

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

For the best dive in fl? Nah... try chartering even an inshore boat to some tourist trap dive site. $40 is a steal

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I bet it's less than a penis ring runs ya these days :)

I'll be gladly paying the $40 as soon as I can get over that way! It's such an amazing place :)

$40 is better than having it closed. I'll gladly pay $40 when I can dive there on my CCR.

Seems like you'd rather just dive CCR then see the cave.

I don't understand this line of thought. Is the goal to see something cool or to use a certain piece of equipment?

Looks like that helium bottle that's been sitting in my garage UNUSED for the last three years will finally see some action!

Tracy and I may have to finally get trimix certified.

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Originally Posted by MORGAN

Tracy and I may have to finally get trimix certified.

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Happy Dance!!!

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

Seems like you'd rather just dive CCR then see the cave.

I don't understand this line of thought. Is the goal to see something cool or to use a certain piece of equipment?

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I think the goal was to see something cool with the greatest amount of ease and comfort. And there's nothing wrong with that at all.

What I fail to understand is, why everyone is excited in a cave that has only been closed a short time is re-opening. From the tone here, it seems than many either didn't know it was ever open, or didn't bother to go there.

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

Seems like you'd rather just dive CCR then see the cave.

I don't understand this line of thought. Is the goal to see something cool or to use a certain piece of equipment?

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If you've already invested in the RB, you can save a lot of money in exhaled mix over OC.

Cheers,
Jeff

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

I think the goal was to see something cool with the greatest amount of ease and comfort. And there's nothing wrong with that at all.

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Or not see it at all?

"My way. No highway option."

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Originally Posted by FW

What I fail to understand is, why everyone is excited in a cave that has only been closed a short time is re-opening. From the tone here, it seems than many either didn't know it was ever open, or didn't bother to go there.

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For some I think the ability to five with other 'independent rated dives' versus guide only is the plus.

I can also see sometime in the future RB diving becomes a possibility

You guys blow my mind sometimes....
$40 is nothing, compared with what we, as divers, invest on equipment, training, maintenace, gas, toys, etc...
I will gladly pay $40 to dive Indian.
If you think it is too much then maybe you should not have entered such costly hobby/interest/sport/activity.

Dive safe,

Celia

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Originally Posted by FW

What I fail to understand is, why everyone is excited in a cave that has only been closed a short time is re-opening. From the tone here, it seems than many either didn't know it was ever open, or didn't bother to go there.

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I think the access is easier now, plus the fact that we just got over the feeling of having the best cave dive in Florida snatched out from under us like a rug.

PFC: Its less expensive to dive the CCR with a good helium mix than OC, the dives can be longer too, so you see a lot more cave. I am a bit weary of the CCR divers not having access to several of the cave systems -- this is 2013, the 21st century, a new millenium....

FW: I think folks are excited that the cave has re-opened -- several of us expected the door was slammed shut. I don't dive cave systems where guides are required, at least I have not in several years due to the added layer of B.S.

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Originally Posted by FW

it seems than many either didn't know it was ever open, or didn't bother to go there.

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Some of us dragged our feet and dragged our feet - then figured it was possibly closed for good.

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Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

PFC: Its less expensive to dive the CCR with a good helium mix than OC, the dives can be longer too, so you see a lot more cave. I am a bit weary of the CCR divers not having access to several of the cave systems -- this is 2013, the 21st century, a new millenium....

FW: I think folks are excited that the cave has re-opened -- several of us expected the door was slammed shut. I don't dive cave systems where guides are required, at least I have not in several years due to the added layer of B.S.

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Last time I dove Indian the "added layer of BS" consisted of emailing Rick Crawford, having him call me, and picking a show time. I've already had a guide ask when I want to go under the new terms. If you want to boycott the system because it doesn't allow CCR and requires a guide, that's certainly admirable to stick up for your beliefs, but you're missing a great system in doing so.

What is with the must be rich to cave dive attitude.... there is a difference between being able to afford something and throwing money at it because you can. A persons opinion of what they "could" pay for something and what they "should" pay for something is just that their opinion..... not a condemnation of their finacial ability.

I'm glad it's back open. I'm not full cave or trimix at this point, but was looking forward to diving one day when my certs allow.

Frankly I know why so few people in our community want to help with projects like getting dive sites open. It's 40-frickin-dollars. At the end of the day that's not that much money. Where's the "hey that's great thanks" and then just keep the bitching to yourself. We spend tons more on gear and fills. What next bitching that it's a trimix dive and mix is too expensive. Just don't dive it then.

Since I'm not full cave Ginnie is $30 a dive and there's two of us so I have to pay $60 to dive it. Yeah that's a little pricey, but I don't ##### because it's a well maintained park. If I can't afford it or don't want to, I dive somewhere else.

Thanks to those that put up with the headaches from the whiners to get sites open. You're better than I. I'd shake my head and tell someone where to shove it and probably never want to help again.

Why is filming/photography not allowed?

Reconfiguring EVERYTHING so that you can dive OC is a pain in the ass, and it invites mistakes, during both switches. Surely you can understand that? Besides- isn't there some argument for diving the same configuration all the time to promote familiarity ;)?

Or is it that you just want to bust on 'breathers, A.J.?

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

Seems like you'd rather just dive CCR then see the cave.

I don't understand this line of thought. Is the goal to see something cool or to use a certain piece of equipment?

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Originally Posted by harmstrong

Reconfiguring EVERYTHING so that you can dive OC is a pain in the ass, and it invites mistakes, during both switches. Surely you can understand that? Besides- isn't there some argument for diving the same configuration all the time to promote familiarity ;)?

Or is it that you just want to bust on 'breathers, A.J.?

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surely you have some OC gear lying around. don't you teach in OC?

anyway it doesn't bother me either way. i'm just happy to have it back. it's one of my favorites :)

I bet they never went there to start with.

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Originally Posted by amphipod06

You guys blow my mind sometimes....
$40 is nothing, compared with what we, as divers, invest on equipment, training, maintenace, gas, toys, etc...
I will gladly pay $40 to dive Indian.
If you think it is too much then maybe you should not have entered such costly hobby/interest/sport/activity.

Dive safe,

Celia

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Originally Posted by rddvet

Thanks to those that put up with the headaches from the whiners to get sites open. You're better than I. I'd shake my head and tell someone where to shove it and probably never want to help again.

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Again...Thanks

It so funny to hear folks complain about a private owner allowing access for a fee. I think the best was at the New Years social at Ginnie. A guy didn't hink it was right for the CDS to make you pay for a membership in order to Cow. This after he gladly paid to get into Ginnie.

I'm looking forward to diving Indian one day. Is mix a requirement for any diving there?

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Originally Posted by hunabku

I'm looking forward to diving Indian one day. Is mix a requirement for any diving there?

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Yes, the part of the cave where you go to get to the up/downstream "T" goes to 140, almost immediately.

What kind of total depth can be achieved there?

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Originally Posted by diverdarren

What kind of total depth can be achieved there?

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300' or so

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

Or not see it at all?

"My way. No highway option."

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I'd be willing to bet he's already seen it.
CCR is just like cave diving. You either get it or you don't. Poor DIR guys and their limitations :D

I am very happy to hear that Indian is open again. I have never done a dive there, but have always wanted to very badly. I have no OC cave training and therefore my rebreather is the only option for me. Not every rebreather diver has a choice of jumping back to OC for a particular dive. I just can not justify the cost of training and gear for an evolutionary step backward, just to dive there.

Hopefully rebreathers will be allowed in the future. I will gladly pay the $40 for access to the site.

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Originally Posted by Dsix36

I am very happy to hear that Indian is open again. I have never done a dive there, but have always wanted to very badly. I have no OC cave training and therefore my rebreather is the only option for me. Not every rebreather diver has a choice of jumping back to OC for a particular dive. I just can not justify the cost of training and gear for an evolutionary step backward, just to dive there.

Hopefully rebreathers will be allowed in the future. I will gladly pay the $40 for access to the site.

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How much additional training do you feel that you need?

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Originally Posted by jj1987

How much additional training do you feel that you need?

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The training would be just for a liability issue. Technically I can not cave dive on OC, only CC with my c-cards. Other than that it would be a matter of a LOT of experience on OC to get comfortable with the time restraints of such a limited gas supply. I also have no OC technical (as in trimix) training.

There is the school of thought, that since I trained with OC bailout, then I should be fine to go. I just refuse to do so without doing it progressively, slowly, and safely until I feel confident enough. May never happen since I like my rebreather so much.

I have done Indian many times. It is a great dive whether you are on open or closed circuit. Well worth the $40 to do it. As I no longer dive oc cave, I will wait until rebreather acces is granted. I believe it will happen fairly soon. The owners would see quite a bit additional traffic to the site when ccr is an option. Quit bitching about the cost. The number of sites available for us to dive today is dwindling.

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Originally Posted by Dsix36

The training would be just for a liability issue. Technically I can not cave dive on OC, only CC with my c-cards.

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Does that mean you're not allowed to bail out in an emergency? :-)

Complaining about a $40 entrance fee for a trimix dive seems kind of silly to me.

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Originally Posted by ianr33

Does that mean you're not allowed to bail out in an emergency? :-)

Complaining about a $40 entrance fee for a trimix dive seems kind of silly to me.

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Bailout is for exiting the cave as per my training. In real life ??? up to the individual I guess.

I hear many complain about paying fees to get into state parks too. Some people expect everything for free.

I'm not qualified to dive there, but if I were, I would pay whatever fee they charged should I choose to dive it.

I'm 100% in favor of the owners charging whatever the market will bear, but in my experience, when demand goes up, prices go up. It would seem to me that a smart business owner would charge an initially low price to generate demand and then raise the price until that demand drops off. Something seems odd about the notion of lowering the price if demand goes up. Lower the price if there is not enough demand and raise the price if demand exceeds the 4 teams per day capacity. I'm not an econ major, but it is not rocket science.

I'm thrilled this site will remain open. Thank you to those who made it happen! I've done a number of dives there and it is indeed a very special place. I will gladly pay the $40 and go dive without thinking another thing about it. Even though I have no problem using a guide, I would definitely look forward to being able to show up with another qualified diver and just be able to go dive as with most other dives we do.

Ryan Parkevich

I've heard nothing but wonderful things about this site. If I make another trip to Florida to cave dive (and assuming my tech credentials are up to date) I would cheerfully pay $40 to dive there. If that means good parking, good benches, good stairs, and good bathrooms, it works for me. It's like Mexico -- if landowners see cave diving as a revenue stream, they're going to be in favor of it. If not, they're unlikely to keep sites open and maintained out of the goodness of their hearts.

From a liability standpoint, I don't blame a landowner for wanting someone to dive with a guide, either.

All my cave diving starts with the horrendous expense of a plane ticket and car rental. Day fees hardly enter into the equation :)

Don't know if this has been mentioned, but as a safety issue at Indian....
ALL should be aware of the incident when Parker Turner died there, and Bill Gavin almost did as well. It could have been even worse, as there were more divers...all VERY experienced....in the cave minutes before there was a major sediment slide into the cave restriction at 120' (Squaws Restriction)...they had all gotten out into the cavern, except for Gavin and Turner.
The slide was caused by diver bubbles dislodging a large amount of sediment trapped in a solution tube on the ceiling...which collapsed to the cavern floor slope, silting out the cavern and causing a sediment slide into the cave. No one's fault, just a freak occurence. Be aware of what is above you when at deco.....that's all I'm sayin'!
I'm sure descriptions of this incident are available on the Web, I've seen them.....and have spoken to divers present at the time.
Just be careful....forwarned adds safety....if you pay attention.

I'm a golfer. I can choose to join the country club and pay $10k in fees annually or I can choose to just play the public courses at $15 a round. My choice is based on my financial ability and the priority I place on that activity. No different for cave diving or many other sports for that matter. For what it's worth my last extensive trimix dive cost me several hundred dollars in gas mix...and that was at a free site. If it had cost me $40 to dive there, it really wouldn't have made much more of an impact. I've never dove Indian and don't know much about it, but reading here I get the impression that its gonna cost way more in gas mix than the entry fee (at least until they allow RBs). My 2 cents for the day.

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Originally Posted by phreaticus

Don't know if this has been mentioned, but as a safety issue at Indian....
ALL should be aware of the incident when Parker Turner died there, and Bill Gavin almost did as well. It could have been even worse, as there were more divers...all VERY experienced....in the cave minutes before there was a major sediment slide into the cave restriction at 120' (Squaws Restriction)...they had all gotten out into the cavern, except for Gavin and Turner.
The slide was caused by diver bubbles dislodging a large amount of sediment trapped in a solution tube on the ceiling...which collapsed to the cavern floor slope, silting out the cavern and causing a sediment slide into the cave. No one's fault, just a freak occurence. Be aware of what is above you when at deco.....that's all I'm sayin'!
I'm sure descriptions of this incident are available on the Web, I've seen them.....and have spoken to divers present at the time.
Just be careful....forwarned adds safety....if you pay attention.

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I agree Steve. Things have been done in the past to make sure that not more than one team is decoing in the cavern at one time. I did the survey of the cavern on the map,and had to poke around the ceiling quite a bit. That ceiling didn't give me a real good feeling.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

I agree Steve. Things have been done in the past to make sure that not more than one team is decoing in the cavern at one time. I did the survey of the cavern on the map,and had to poke around the ceiling quite a bit. That ceiling didn't give me a real good feeling.

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Sounds like a good arguemnet for the safety of some kind of scuba gear that does not make all those bubbles to endanger the divers. I think they call them rebreathers or something like that.

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Originally Posted by Dsix36

Sounds like a good arguemnet for the safety of some kind of scuba gear that does not make all those bubbles to endanger the divers. I think they call them rebreathers or something like that.

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+1 and won't be wasting all that expensive gas called Helium.

Were there restrictions on rebreathers in '91 when the accident occurred? I read as much as I could find on the interwebs and I gotta admit my pulse picked up a bit as I read Gavin's account. Of course it goes without saying that the outcome would be different with CCR equipped divers. I may wait a bit to dive this system but I will look forward to it..... Maybe in OC maybe in CCR.

I have a pdf file of an article entitled, "The cave resonator and the Parker Turner cave collapse problem" by Doron Nof and Nathan Paldor. I believe I proofed it for some publication. It is extremely scientific in nature. Unfortunately, I am unable to send anyone the file unless I can figure out who it was for and if that owner has published it. Maybe UWS?

If you know about this, let me know, because I'm sure some CDF members would be interested.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

I have a pdf file of an article entitled, "The cave resonator and the Parker Turner cave collapse problem" by Doron Nof and Nathan Paldor. I believe I proofed it for some publication. It is extremely scientific in nature. Unfortunately, I am unable to send anyone the file unless I can figure out who it was for and if that owner has published it. Maybe UWS?

If you know about this, let me know, because I'm sure some CDF members would be interested.

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All you need to do is ask the google....

http://earth.huji.ac.il/data/pics/ca...r+collapse.pdf

That's the article, only a slightly different version. Thanks L.A.!

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

That's the article, only a slightly different version. Thanks L.A.!

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No problem ;-)

Read that article a while back....nice "theoretical" study, but the facts are known, as reported by divers doing deco in the cavern at the time of the incident.
One diver was up on or very near the ceiling, exhaling his bubbles around/into a large debris-filled solution tube. Those bubbles suddenly dislodged all the debris which "poured out of the tube in a huge quantity, almost like an inverted explosion" (as stated to me by the diver who witnessed it, who is one of the top five American cave divers...ever!...IMHO).
Simple physical disruption of the plugged debris by bubbles.....no "harmonic resonance" needed.
Freak accident...no one at fault, could not be anticipated at the time.
It can be now.

it was in the uws.....

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Originally Posted by Dsix36

Sounds like a good arguemnet for the safety of some kind of scuba gear that does not make all those bubbles to endanger the divers. I think they call them rebreathers or something like that.

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+1 and the helium advantage. I'd love to dive Indian and would gladly pay $40 and use the guide system, but only with my Meg. To my mind, rebreathers are the only sensible option for deep diving. I'll be watching and waiting for the change.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by phreaticus

Read that article a while back....nice "theoretical" study, but the facts are known, as reported by divers doing deco in the cavern at the time of the incident.
One diver was up on or very near the ceiling, exhaling his bubbles around/into a large debris-filled solution tube. Those bubbles suddenly dislodged all the debris which "poured out of the tube in a huge quantity, almost like an inverted explosion" (as stated to me by the diver who witnessed it, who is one of the top five American cave divers...ever!...IMHO).
Simple physical disruption of the plugged debris by bubbles.....no "harmonic resonance" needed.
Freak accident...no one at fault, could not be anticipated at the time.
It can be now.

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I really got sense of what happened when diving with someone that had preincident experience there,and their description of what the place looked like. The Mud tunnel has a gradual sloping bottom once passing the restriction,but it wasn't always that way. That is A LOT of debris that shifted.

I haven't been in Indian for a while (too long!) but am glad to hear it has quickly re-opened for diving again. Although I never dove there under a guide-type system, it's good to hear that reasonable steps are available to become an 'independent' diver there. I hope similar quick progress is made on the CCR front as well (towards 'independent CCR' diver). Thanks to all that helped make it happen.

Doron sent me a PM:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Doron Nof

There is a much more updated version which includes the answers to various comments such as those made by Phreaticus and others. It is pub #112 in the link below.
http://www.doronnof.net/publications.php

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Update: the guide meeting was held today and the new guide list will be posted on the Cave Connections website. Contact information for the guides will be up as well. I am confident we have assembled a great guide team and all will work well together to insure safety remains paramount at Indian. Jason has achieved an outstanding safety record which we will strive to continue. There was input from all guides as to the guide policy and diving policies. I will have revised policies up this week. We are currently performing the guided dives necessary to reach independent diver for anyone wishing to schedule those dives.

Conditions are as follows: mud tunnel 80' with patches of 100+. Upstream is crystal clear to the EOL. Downstream has a slight milky haze but clears the closer to th EOL you get. Best viz was less then 150'.

Here is a link to a more up-to-date article than the one quoted above (http://doronnof.net/files/JFSCavePaper.pdf). The issue that is alluding to above is discussed on pages 932, 933, and 934, particularly the second paragraph on page 934, where the bubbles are discussed. They are easy to read.