How many would dive in Wakulla County?

If quality sites were opened to divers which fell within the level of your training, how often would you dive those sites? How much would you spend to dive them per trip or by annual pass?

Example: Emerald/Clear Cut. Both these sites have beautiful cave with depths at 110' or less. Both could be suitable as intro to cave diving sites with very little change to the existing line. For example, Emerald to Cheryl is 80 feet average depth. There would need to be one "T" cut back to make a very nice run from Emerald to Cheryl which goes through Split Sink. In Clear Cut, the Downstream reaches around 107 max depth and requires no changes to the existing line.

I live in Wakulla County and have become very active in the community. The biggest disbelief people have here is cave diving means money for the economy. To date, there are only a few of the 467 sinks and springs open to public diving. There are some very good cave systems open but there are requirements to dive there that many do not have even though the sites could be dove by divers with lesser qualifications. What has to happen is diving needs to come to this area. I was just told by the president of the FOW any proposal to help open sites and/or lift some restrictions will be supported by their organization. There has been an unchallenged distribution of facts here in Wakulla County that have these folks scared of cave divers. The sad fact is, it is certain cave diving group(s) who spread the misleading information and keep the sites closed or under heavy restriction. (mostly for financial gain or their own personal agendas or fears). The biggest fact is the parks are going broke and lack funding to operate at the level they should. It takes many volunteers to help the parks survive. The simple truth is the parks will listen to those who step up and pitch in to help them. These volunteers are us divers. Who as a diver would not step up to help protect and aid in conservation of natural resources. It is time for us to unite and start putting our energy into assisting the parks proving we are a society of people who care as much as any other organization out there. I personally encourage all divers to come dive what is available to you in Wakulla County and while you are here, ask what you can do to help the parks meet their goals. When folks here start seeing an influx of diver traffic then they will believe. It is up to each and every one of us who loves our sport and way of life to step up.

I would, actually, I do now, but would be there more often, if there were more sites open.

Good comments. When I first started cave diving many of the sites in Wakulla Co weren't restricted,and they were visited on a frequent basis. The one thing that has hurt diving in the past in Wakulla Co was when Leon sinks blows out,it takes out a majority of these sites,and diving in the area is ceased. Unfortunately the people that were anti-diving Wakulla never recognized that there was a long stretch that we couldn't dive Emerald due to poor conditions,when they made the argument that we have access to Emerald,and we aren't using it,so why open Wakulla. You are correct to note that there was a huge negative PR campaign against recreational cave diving,with comments like buy body bags if you let these people in,this doesn't endear a community to you. I spent a lot of time several years ago with local officials who had some interest,and later with the hearing for Wakulla,there does exist a core interest in returning diving to Wakulla region-plus we have a history of diving sites over the last few years that the community were told we couldn't, without mass fatalities. You are right too that the parks are bleeding red,even the crown jewel Wakulla has had difficulty with keeping the lodge solvent. The parks are having to look outside the box for revenue,and one thing that they have looked at is camping at some parks,because parks that have camping are in the black. Camping for Wakulla was nixed by a local group who wanted Wakulla to stay unchanged,which includes no diving,but the bad thing is that the status quo won't work anymore for survivability.(ironically the RV park wants to locate across from Indian Springs,with the potential for building directly over downstream tunnels-ow that is scary) I can really appreciate their efforts to support the park and keeping it unchanged,but the bottom line is Wakulla Co is not a tourist destination,and is off the I75 Disney corridor. Diving,and cave diving specifically would bring tourist dollars to a community that is striving to keep its head above the poverty level. Who would think that Suwannee County,Gilchrist County,Jackson County etc are international and national sites that receive an economic boost from ecoturism by cave divers. I applaud your efforts,and barriers will be broken down,but it will take time and perserverence.

Hell, I moved to Tallahassee for the caves in Wakulla.

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

Hell, I moved to Tallahassee for the caves in Wakulla.

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I heard it was so you could be south of I10-LOL

Dr. X and I spend over 10K per year on our diving that goes directly into the community area we dive in. This number only includes vehicle fuel, lodging, diving gas, etc.. The money that is spent locally. It is interesting to see how the trend of where we spend our money has changed as access and service options have improved. An example is that we spent nearly 100% of our money between High Springs & Mayo even though we would occasionally dive places like Manatee Springs, Eagles Nest, Jackson Blue, etc.. This is because we would get tank and vehicle gas fills where we were staying drive to where we were diving then drive back. We might buy lunch where we were diving but that was pretty much the extent of our spending.

Today we spend 75% of our money in the High Springs to Mayo area and 25% in Marianna. This is a direct result of Cave Adventurers offering services and the local Gov. opening access. Marianna has become so diver friendly that we will now go over there spur of the moment when in the past we would only plan specific trips there.

As for Wakulla County I dive there regularly, however I currently spend virtually zero dollars. Even though there are shops there that now offer services and are close to the cave sites the access to those sites is still very restricted. This means that diving for Dr. X in that area does not fit her taste so I only make specific planned dive trips in that area. That means that dive & vehicle gas fills, lodging, meals, etc. dollars are spent in another area. If diving access in the Wakulla County area was opened to the recreational cave diver then we would move 25-35% of our money spent on diving to that area. There is more in the Wakulla area that suits both mine and Dr. X's interest compared to both Marianna and the HS/Mayo areas.

Even though we live within driving distance to the caves (1.5 hrs one way) we tend to spend money on lodging regularly. We have found that we prefer the convenience of a more relaxed schedule with local (to the caves) lodging rather than having to get on the road to meet park and service hours of operation times.

Bottom line is that the Wakulla County area has a lot to offer when it comes to cave diving opportunities. Now that there is solid service available for cave diving specific needs the only thing missing is the local government support. Until the gov. gets on board with opening access the money will not go into Wakulla County. All they need to do is speak with the government folks in Marianna to know how much they are missing out on. I believe that the money that is now flowing into Marianna is only a fraction of what would flow into Wakulla simply because there is a much wider range of cave diving opportunity in Wakulla. Even though I dive there now we don't spend money there and won't until we can get a hotel, go to breakfast, get fills and plan our diving weekends and holidays all in that area. That requires access to sites for the recreational cave diver, which Wakulla County has but does not offer access.

Exactly what Bobby said. 100% of my money is currently going to the area between High Springs and Luraville. 90% of that directly to High Springs. Now granted most of my trips are simply driving through, or a 1 night stay, due to the fact that I drive past HS on every trip from home to work and I stop in for a dive. However if I had more access to areas in Wakulla I would take the extra day on my trips and make over night trips to that area as well. It simply does not make financial sense for me to do that now.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

...Wakulla Co is not a tourist destination,and is off the I75 Disney corridor.

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Another good reason to spend time there!

Tracy and I spend six weeks a year cave diving, all in Florida so far (since 2004). Mostly in the Luraville - High Springs area, with the occasional two or three day trip to Marianna. We would definitely spend some time in Wakulla County if there were more sites open.

I don't know if I would or not. I have only the slightest idea of what there actually is to dive there. I assume that's because it's so heavily restricted.

Interestingly, it's only 3 minutes further for me than driving to Madison Blue. Based on Clearwater to Wakulla Springs (don't know any other site) vs Clearwater to Cave Excursions to Madison Blue. So if there's a dive shop in a decent location, and decent camping in the area I'd say we'd make a few trips up there a year.

Marianna is just too far. The logistics don't work for me for weekend trips.

I would go every trip, leaving Friday to head there.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2

Best diving in the world! I have a house there :-0

I sort of grew up at Alligator Point, I would love to dive the Wakulla area, there is a whole lot more to do there than just dive too, the whole area is a whole lot more family friendly than Marianna, High springs, Mayo etc.

Awesome diving there, too bad people get all butt-hurt when you start talking about diving sites there. They have intentionally made it more difficult for the average cave diver to dive in the Wakulla county area, Indian, Emerald, and Clearcut. Most cave divers cannot meet the idiotic requirements for diving those sites and aren't going to go through the effort to fill out all the paperwork to dive at Emerald/Clearcut if they have met all the requirements, just to get there and it's blown out. Also they all have ZERO rebreather diving. Guess who spends the most money in those areas? Generally people who can afford and own a $10-15k individual piece of dive gear (probably with me being the exception, being poor and all). There are too many awesome restaurants in Crawfordville and Panacea that could get a huge boost from more cave divers coming into the area. Anyone ever stay at the local hotels in Crawfordville? They are almost always empty. As Bobby said, I also rarely spend money except to eat when I go into Wakulla county to dive. No point in staying in someplace that doesn't have a good supply of friendly dive sites for most people.

Yes I know there are other sites, like Church, Harvey's, and a bunch of other ones with horrible vis most of the time, but when people spend their money and drive from neighboring states, they don't want to go to those sites. They want to back the car up, unload their gear onto a bench and go enjoy a crystal clear dive, not just see the guy in front of them's fins. Also there are other sites that fall into a legal grey area (I won't name them for fear of certain DIR people on this forum complaining about it), which are possible to access though intermediaries or just going via the river. Again, this is a grey area of the law for some and others are just trespassing on state or private land.

All these guys who complain about the damage to the caves in the Wakulla area and why we should make it more difficult to access the ones we already have so the damage doesn't happen. They don't realize that they are keeping the new sites from being opened. The locals and non-divers hear that and assume cave divers will just destroy the cave and the surrounding areas above water too. If you guys want to complain about damage to the caves, go complain to the instructors of the people who shouldn't be venturing into them, it's their fault for certifying the diver.

Finally, whoever said we should allow "normal" recreational diving (non-cave diving) at Wakulla, really needs to get a grip on reality. It is just flat out crazy, look what has happened in the Mill Pond lately when rec divers go do a dive there. Yes I know it sounds like a great idea to train divers in the head pool of Wakulla, but seriously, think about the Mill Pond.

Church Sink isn't technically open, you need permission to dive it from the landowner, otherwise, its trespassing.


Some of the sites in Wakulla County simply can't handle a tremendous amount of traffic, especially from the poorly trained. Contrary to what you may think, one cannot figure out the instructor of a bad cave diver by looking at a formation on the floor. It'd sure help if instruction wasn't occuring in some of them as well. Alot of sites are suitable for higher traffic.

Some sites have clear water the majority of the year, but accessibility at them aren't as good. Itd be cool if theyd get opened.

Indian Springs is probably the best dive in Florida, seriously. If there was ever a reason to get Trimix certified, Indian is it. The waiver to dive it takes less than 2 minutes to fill out and read. Diving Emerald and Clearcut uses the same process, without the need for a guide, and they are excellent dives with numerous options as far as possible dive plans go. I personally feel Emerald and Clearcut would be awesome dives for divers at levels below 100+ & Trimix, but those are the rules as they stand. Hopefully the Emerald commitee continues to push for relaxed restrictions at these sites since there has been no incidents since being open, despite the claims of some of those opposed to having these sites accessible. I feel this change would open up a new area of Florida cave diving to the majority of the cave diving community and Wakulla would start to see the reality of the kind of money that would flow in with more access.

Want to know how conditions are? Pick up the phone. Look/ask online. Nobody has to go into Wakulla Co blindsided to find bad conditions.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

I heard it was so you could be south of I10-LOL

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I wasnt above I10 premove! :P

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Originally Posted by Greenwood_60

I don't know if I would or not. I have only the slightest idea of what there actually is to dive there. I assume that's because it's so heavily restricted.

Interestingly, it's only 3 minutes further for me than driving to Madison Blue. Based on Clearwater to Wakulla Springs (don't know any other site) vs Clearwater to Cave Excursions to Madison Blue. So if there's a dive shop in a decent location, and decent camping in the area I'd say we'd make a few trips up there a year.

Marianna is just too far. The logistics don't work for me for weekend trips.

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Cave Connections is just down the road from Indian(like a mile away) and less than 5 miles from Cherokee Sink, and maybe 6-7 miles from Emerald and ClearCut.


Wakulla Dive Center is further south, but in the area, closer to the coast and the better Wakulla Co hotels.

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Originally Posted by jcook

Awesome diving there, too bad people get all butt-hurt when you start talking about diving sites there. They have intentionally made it more difficult for the average cave diver to dive in the Wakulla county area, Indian, Emerald, and Clearcut. Most cave divers cannot meet the idiotic requirements for diving those sites and aren't going to go through the effort to fill out all the paperwork to dive at Emerald/Clearcut if they have met all the requirements, just to get there and it's blown out. Also they all have ZERO rebreather diving. Guess who spends the most money in those areas? Generally people who can afford and own a $10-15k individual piece of dive gear (probably with me being the exception, being poor and all). There are too many awesome restaurants in Crawfordville and Panacea that could get a huge boost from more cave divers coming into the area. Anyone ever stay at the local hotels in Crawfordville? They are almost always empty. As Bobby said, I also rarely spend money except to eat when I go into Wakulla county to dive. No point in staying in someplace that doesn't have a good supply of friendly dive sites for most people.

I am sorry you chose the path in diving that limited your ability to dive certain sites. It is the same limitation that has put me 2800' beyond a WKPP EOL. (which was told to the locals had no cave and could not be pushed.) No one ever said being an explorer would be easy. But all will tell you it takes nads to accomplish! iF YOU WANT TO DIVE HERE I WILL LOAN YOU GEAR FOR FREE! Now you have no excuses!!! Especially since I already offered you gas.

Yes I know there are other sites, like Church, Harvey's, and a bunch of other ones with horrible vis most of the time, but when people spend their money and drive from neighboring states, they don't want to go to those sites. They want to back the car up, unload their gear onto a bench and go enjoy a crystal clear dive, not just see the guy in front of them's fins. Also there are other sites that fall into a legal grey area (I won't name them for fear of certain DIR people on this forum complaining about it), which are possible to access though intermediaries or just going via the river. Again, this is a grey area of the law for some and others are just trespassing on state or private land.

Exploration is work. I'm glad that Amerigo was not of the same opinion as you. He would have been highly displeased when he sailed from Europe only to find there were no piers in Florida to dock his vessel. Dude, exploration and diving in Wakulla requires walking, hauling gear twice as far as you walked and sometimes spending 4 evenings a night in public meetings and weekends volunteering to help where it is needed. Not every dive site will have a 24/7 drive thru!!

All these guys who complain about the damage to the caves in the Wakulla area and why we should make it more difficult to access the ones we already have so the damage doesn't happen. They don't realize that they are keeping the new sites from being opened. The locals and non-divers hear that and assume cave divers will just destroy the cave and the surrounding areas above water too. If you guys want to complain about damage to the caves, go complain to the instructors of the people who shouldn't be venturing into them, it's their fault for certifying the diver.

The true question here is the damage. I dive here a lot!! I see no damage in any caves currently open to divers. So I must be left to believe all the damage spoken about must be done by the only ones who have access being of the same said group that states damage at every turn. Funny how crying about spilt milk when were the only one in the kitchen can bite you in the butt!! So I tend to agree with you here.

Finally, whoever said we should allow "normal" recreational diving (non-cave diving) at Wakulla, really needs to get a grip on reality. It is just flat out crazy, look what has happened in the Mill Pond lately when rec divers go do a dive there. Yes I know it sounds like a great idea to train divers in the head pool of Wakulla, but seriously, think about the Mill Pond.

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I believe the person who first mentioned this was the shop owner in the southern region of Wakulla County. Of course he was not the only one. The state is an equal access for all agency. They actually had many conservations about this very subject. Yes they are aware of JB and all other sites in the nation. Simple fact is you can't fix stupid!! You may save it and alter the way of thinking but you can't fix it. Do you ever wonder why the state allows a person to ride a motorcycle without a helmet but can't drive a car without a seatbelt? (BTW, both occur on state property, the highway!). Simple truth, bikers rallied against it in a uniform effort and it was repealed. Keyword there being UNIFORM. The state has issue with opening access to a select group of divers labeled as "public." Then exclude other segments of the "public." Yes I know the other group is "public". Perhaps you should try to join them. But then again they did some work and applied for a permit which anyone can. Just need to do some work assemble a good old boy club like you claim and go for it. Of course it would be easier to just join in on the effort and come work a little. You will get dirty but then look at what you will have. A clear refreshing clean spring or sink to dip in and clense your soul.

Point of the thread is, we can make a difference but it takes work and a UNIFORM effort. In the mean time, I will be attending those meeting, join boards, congratulating those who deserve it and help those that ask. I can send dates, times and addresses to anyone who wishes to join in. If diving where easy, everyone would be doing it and we would be a large group of divers who never have to fall victim to the misleading ramblings of a few.

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Originally Posted by speleodiver

I believe the person who first mentioned this was the shop owner in the southern region of Wakulla County. Of course he was not the only one. The state is an equal access for all agency. They actually had many conservations about this very subject. Yes they are aware of JB and all other sites in the nation. Simple fact is you can't fix stupid!! You may save it and alter the way of thinking but you can't fix it. Do you ever wonder why the state allows a person to ride a motorcycle without a helmet but can't drive a car without a seatbelt? (BTW, both occur on state property, the highway!). Simple truth, bikers rallied against it in a uniform effort and it was repealed. Keyword there being UNIFORM. The state has issue with opening access to a select group of divers labeled as "public." Then exclude other segments of the "public." Yes I know the other group is "public". Perhaps you should try to join them. But then again they did some work and applied for a permit which anyone can. Just need to do some work assemble a good old boy club like you claim and go for it. Of course it would be easier to just join in on the effort and come work a little. You will get dirty but then look at what you will have. A clear refreshing clean spring or sink to dip in and clense your soul.

Point of the thread is, we can make a difference but it takes work and a UNIFORM effort. In the mean time, I will be attending those meeting, join boards, congratulating those who deserve it and help those that ask. I can send dates, times and addresses to anyone who wishes to join in. If diving where easy, everyone would be doing it and we would be a large group of divers who never have to fall victim to the misleading ramblings of a few.

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Apparently reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. I guess if you put stuff in bold font, it must be true, lol. If you read my post, you would see answers to your questions. I gave general unbiased answers about the subject of diving in Wakulla county and what is wrong with it. I like how you just basically attacked everything I said. I do go out of my way to dive in Wakulla county, so get your facts correct.

Also, YOU brought up recreational diving at Wakulla on the forum.

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Originally Posted by jcook

I like how you just basically attacked everything I said.

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I will disagree with your comment on reading comprehension. Since in paragraph three I stated "So I tend to agree with you here." It's obvious you do not know what it means.

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Originally Posted by jcook

Also, YOU brought up recreational diving at Wakulla on the forum.

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Yes I brought it up. It is fact and it is exactly as I just stated. The state sees it that way and so do many others. Including shop owners. What makes cave diving any better then recreational diving when it comes to access in a public park. If you agree with just allowing cave diving then you are just like the other group that dives there now. The state will always be equal access when it comes to public access. However holding a permit is not public access!!!

On another note, you do make some good points but you destroy them with comments like idiotic and people with 10-15k individual pieces of dive gear. Do you even know how the restrictions were put on the sites? I just dove both Emerald and Clear Cut last weekend and I did it on less then $4000.00 in combined gear and I even shot video. Just get the facts straight and let's have a civil conversation. Perhaps its your writing style that does it or perhaps it is just flat out your reputation on here. Either way it is up to you to correct it. Oh and you do not have to PM me to complain about what I said.

Here is some math for you...

less than 400 people with 10-15k gear show up and spend less on gas and the same amount on everything else as the 50,000 people with less expensive gear who spend more on gas. Who spends more money??

I agree on the uniform effort that needs to happen. Bottom line, we all love to cave dive, all want sites open so why not ignore all the other stuff and join together.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

Hopefully the Emerald commitee continues to push for relaxed restrictions at these sites since there has been no incidents since being open, despite the claims of some of those opposed to having these sites accessible..

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You are correct. I was part of the negotiation process in opening up Emerald. Many people from different organizations and ideals came together with park management to hammer out an access policy that everyone could agree on,and park management would rubber stamp. Was it what we wanted-no,but it was the best we could do at the time. The Emerald committee has worked hard to streamline some processes,and fast track people who submit credentials to dive there. Realize that diving there came during an era when local land owners were told that if you let these people in,then get the body bags,so it has taken time to build trust,plus compounded there is an infrequent management change.

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Originally Posted by jcook

They have intentionally made it more difficult for the average cave diver to dive in the Wakulla county area, Indian, Emerald, and Clearcut. Most cave divers cannot meet the idiotic requirements for diving those sites and aren't going to go through the effort to fill out all the paperwork to dive at Emerald/Clearcut if they have met all the requirements,. ..

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Nobody intentionally made things difficult. When you are dealing with land owners that are granting you access,and that have special requirements they insist on,at this point we have 2 choices 1)thank you and we will comply 2)no we don't want to dive there. Are these rules we as cave divers like,no,but this is better than what has happened around the Hudson area,they get closed,and no negotiation. Lot of people have kicked their butt to get access to these places and maintain good landowner relations so continued access can occur.

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just to get there and it's blown out

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You are lucky there is the internet where you could get local conditions from forums. When I was diving Wakulla area the best there was a 300 baud BBS and basically I made a lot of trips to look at brown water,eat some BBQ,and go home. The nature of the beast of Leon sinks area is they blow out easily,and can take awhile to clear. The biggest difference in 17 years is that water quality from the neighbor to the north has worsened things

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Also they all have ZERO rebreather diving

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Last I recall Emerald and Clearcut don't have this,matter of fact I don't think any of them have that except Indian

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Last I recall Emerald and Clearcut don't have this,matter of fact I don't think any of them have that except Indian

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Kelly, I had spoken with Larry about it last year at the NACD Rebreather Summit and he told me there was no CCR diving there. I assumed since he was on the review panel, he would be the man to ask. I guess I could've just PM'ed you too, my bad. Woohoo! Looks like I can take my rebreather there now.

About the blown sites, I was alluding to the fact that you basically have to plan your entire day around this one site, days in advance, due to the form or did the time requirements change? Even then, not all the info online is up to date. With most other places in cave country, there are dozens of other places in the general vicinity that divers can go to if a site is blown. You don't have as many easy options (which most people want) in Wakulla county. It comes down to a lot of people go by the seat of their pants to go dive places, you don't really have that option as much as you do in Marianna, High Springs, Mayo, etc. Also it is ease of access, when there is a decent amount of difficultly to get to a site, a lot of people will just give up. Let me clarify to people, I don't mind it, I am expressing what I have seen and hear from others.

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Originally Posted by jcook

Kelly, I had spoken with Larry about it last year at the NACD Rebreather Summit and he told me there was no CCR diving there. I assumed since he was on the review panel, he would be the man to ask. I guess I could've just PM'ed you too, my bad. Woohoo! Looks like I can take my rebreather there now.

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I rechecked the Emerald rules and no where can I find no CCR diving.

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About the blown sites, I was alluding to the fact that you basically have to plan your entire day around this one site, days in advance, due to the form or did the time requirements change? Even then, not all the info online is up to date. With most other places in cave country, there are dozens of other places in the general vicinity that divers can go to if a site is blown.
.

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The bad thing is comparing Wakulla region to say the Peacock region is an apples and orange issue. The systems around Peacock region have multiple recharge basins with different water sources,so we can have one place good,and another bad. But Leon sinks is like a giant Lafayette Blue. Lafayette has over 20 sinks in this one system,so when rains heavily the whole system goes. Leon sinks does the same thing,but it is spread over several miles. There have been cases when the WKPP has planned a dive based on conditions days before only to find the plans cancelled or changed due to rain etc. Unfortunately this is just one of the peculiarities to Woodville karst region-when it is good it is worth the effort,and when it is bad,then happy hour starts early.

Thanks for the input and correction of FACTS Kelly. The rumor mill here in Wakulla is responsible for the CCR misinformation. The dive application has all the rules and has not been changed since they were written. A link to them is here: http://www.safecavediving.com/forms/...n_06-22-10.pdf (taken right from the NACD website).

We have been able to get applications through in one day recently thanks to the efforts of a few panel members. I have even been able to get a reservation the day before if the site was not already booked.

There are other sites here to dive that stay clear most of the year as Mat mentioned. Some are open now and some will have need to be acquired. Hence the whole point of the thread. If enough people start coming here to dive then the ease of convincing folks to open sites will exist. True fact in life is money talks and BS walks. That is the case here. Economic rise will open sites and misleading and false information will keep them shut. It is things like the CCR issue just discussed that keep poeple away. If Larry was consulted it would have been made clear rebreathers are allowed. Surely one of the people who helped write the rules wouldn't give out the wrong information. The point I have made and will say again to someone who didn't get it is: we need a uniform effort. This means we get what we can, have civil discussions with those that have what we want, dispell the rumors and misleading information and work together. No boycotts, no whinning, no pot stirring and certainly no people involved that can't be happy with compromise.

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Originally Posted by jcook

With most other places in cave country, there are dozens of other places in the general vicinity that divers can go to if a site is blown. You don't have as many easy options (which most people want) in Wakulla county.

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Can you please name a dozen(or dozens) easy access places in the Mayo or High Springs(or Marianna) areas that open without getting waivers or use of a boat?

I smell a falacy.

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

Can you please name a dozen(or dozens) easy access places in the Mayo or High Springs(or Marianna) areas that open without getting waivers or use of a boat?

I smell a falacy.

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No fallacy (proper spelling) Mat, just caves to dive. So you have 3 different easy entrances at WSPSSP (basically like 3 different caves for most divers just on back gas), Little River, Jug Hole, Telford, 2 different caves at Ginnie (there are apparently more in the area, but you need a boat), Lafayette Blue, Convict, there is Ruth (I think thats the one) on the way to Little River from Peacock, and Cow. But that Cow waiver sure does take a long time to fill out.....

Wait isn't this thread about Wakulla?

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Originally Posted by jcook

No fallacy (proper spelling) Mat, just caves to dive. So you have 3 different easy entrances at WSPSSP (basically like 3 different caves for most divers just on back gas), Little River, Jug Hole, Telford, 2 different caves at Ginnie (there are apparently more in the area, but you need a boat), Lafayette Blue, Convict, there is Ruth (I think thats the one) on the way to Little River from Peacock, and Cow. But that Cow waiver sure does take a long time to fill out.....

Wait isn't this thread about Wakulla?

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So what you're saying is no, there's not a dozen caves in the area that you can just drive up and dive...

Cow requires a waiver and CDS membership. Jug is seasonal and requires a healthy walk. There are two caves at Ginnie? I guess if you include whats behind the gate, sure. Telford requires a boat or a swim up the river. Nothing about any of the caves I just listed require any more effort than alot of whats in Wakulla.




So the fallacy I smelled earlier, has just been found. Fact check before you spout crap.

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

So what you're saying is no, there's not a dozen caves in the area that you can just drive up and dive...

Cow requires a waiver and CDS membership. Jug is seasonal and requires a healthy walk. There are two caves at Ginnie? I guess if you include whats behind the gate, sure. Telford requires a boat or a swim up the river. Nothing about any of the caves I just listed require any more effort than alot of whats in Wakulla.



So the fallacy I smelled earlier, has just been found. Fact check before you spout crap.

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Wow dude you must have some serious issues with your life to be this angry, I was just giving you the info requested. Why don't you be more specific next time, instead of trying to bait me into stuff like you are right now? You asked me a question you already had the answer to. You never specified just driving right up, you said "needing a waiver or boat". I had just said easy options, I guess your definition of easy is different than mine. I guess if you consider a 1/4 mile walk on a trail a healthy walk, you may want to stop diving and start exercising more. You know obesity affects 1/3 of all male americans and it is a serious issue. If you don't like the answers I gave you (which were correct and there are more sites by the way) just don't continue reading what I post, it's not that hard. Here is a website for you Mat http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

but the bottom line is Wakulla Co is not a tourist destination,and is off the I75 Disney corridor. Diving,and cave diving specifically would bring tourist dollars to a community that is striving to keep its head above the poverty level. Who would think that Suwannee County,Gilchrist County,Jackson County etc are international and national sites that receive an economic boost from ecoturism by cave divers. I applaud your efforts,and barriers will be broken down,but it will take time and perserverence.

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I don't think cave divers come to Florida to see anything related to Disney... and perhaps more exposure and education may change things (like get the local government get off their collective duffs and actually allow cave diving to take place). People that invest thousands of dollars in equipment, training, and travel do not do so because they are stupid and want to kill themselves in some dark, water filled hole. Yes, it will take time and perseverance, but we need to make it happen (open the door) in order for the rest of the populous to get on the band wagon. Sort of a catch 22.....

Dive safe,

Celia

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

The Emerald committee has worked hard to streamline some processes,and fast track people who submit credentials to dive there.

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Really? I just had two, very experienced friends (both of whom are recognized explorers with published research and articles on sub 300' projects worldwide) submit the paperwork for Emerald. Both got the run around from the person they submitted it to, and, once their log submissions met his "standards" they were told 2-3 weeks for the remainder of the committee to review them. That doesn't sound very streamlined to me.

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Originally Posted by harmstrong

Really? I just had two, very experienced friends (both of whom are recognized explorers with published research and articles on sub 300' projects worldwide) submit the paperwork for Emerald. Both got the run around from the person they submitted it to, and, once their log submissions met his "standards" they were told 2-3 weeks for the remainder of the committee to review them. That doesn't sound very streamlined to me.

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We don't look at whether people are accomplished,well known personalities etc,but we look at the paperwork. The standards are the same regardless of what you've done or who you are,and many times we will get people who will say their name is adequate over a log book,or their log book is a jumble where we can't figure out if there are 100 cave dives there. The simplest process is those people who submit documentation with an Abe Davis/Wakulla award because this certifies 100 cave dives,and speeds the process up. I've had someone that has submitted an excel spreadsheet of dives,and I had to sit and manually separate 30ft reef dives from post training cave divers-yes this can be time consuming. In reality we don't want to slow down the process,but get people in there diving as much as possible and as fast as possible. Why? 1) A lot of effort was undertaken to open this site and build the steps,lets use the damn place. 2) People who opposed opening Wakulla claimed we had Emerald and weren't using it. The real reason it wasn't dove was because as you are aware is that Leon sinks can go bad and stay bad for sometime. Hence when it is good we need to get the numbers up for visibility purposes. If your friends think they were treated unfairly,and the process was impeded against them,then have them please email me or PM me,because I have interest in addressing this.

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Originally Posted by jcook

Wow dude you must have some serious issues with your life to be this angry, I was just giving you the info requested.

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Not angry, just calling out more of your misinformation.

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Originally Posted by jcook

Why don't you be more specific next time, instead of trying to bait me into stuff like you are right now? You asked me a question you already had the answer to. You never specified just driving right up, you said "needing a waiver or boat". I had just said easy options, I guess your definition of easy is different than mine.

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They were all your specifics, actually. You're correct, I knew that you're comment(quoted again below) was complete BS.

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Originally Posted by jcook

With most other places in cave country, there are dozens of other places in the general vicinity that divers can go to if a site is blown. You don't have as many easy options (which most people want) in Wakulla county.

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I knew you couldn't name a dozen places near Mayo or High Springs with easy access. It sure is fun having you list sites, in a lame attempt at meeting your own numbers, that require access specifics that you've stated yourself make them less desirable to some, as quoted below.

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Originally Posted by jcook

Most cave divers cannot meet the idiotic requirements for diving those sites and aren't going to go through the effort to fill out all the paperwork to dive at Emerald/Clearcut if they have met all the requirements...

...Yes I know there are other sites, like Church, Harvey's, and a bunch of other ones with horrible vis most of the time, but when people spend their money and drive from neighboring states, they don't want to go to those sites. They want to back the car up, unload their gear onto a bench and go enjoy a crystal clear dive, not just see the guy in front of them's fins.

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Originally Posted by jcook

Also it is ease of access, when there is a decent amount of difficultly to get to a site, a lot of people will just give up. Let me clarify to people, I don't mind it, I am expressing what I have seen and hear from others.

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Ya know, stuff like the above stated. Stuff that apparently doesn't apply to sites if they are in the vicinity to Mayo and High Springs, LOL.

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Originally Posted by jcook

You never specified just driving right up, you said "needing a waiver or boat".

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Again, your words, not mine.

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Originally Posted by jcook

...They want to back the car up, unload their gear onto a bench and go enjoy a crystal clear dive...

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Short memory?

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Originally Posted by jcook

I guess if you consider a 1/4 mile walk on a trail a healthy walk, you may want to stop diving and start exercising more. If you don't like the answers I gave you (which were correct and there are more sites by the way) just don't continue reading what I post, it's not that hard.

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Its a half mile actually, and what about a walk isn't healthy? ;) Its a seasonal opening.

You're posting BS on a thread that matters to me, I think I'll point out any inconsistancies from the truth I feel necessary.

Please do school me on my BS Mat or do you only see your own logical fallacies?

I think you just have a personal issue with me and you don't have the balls to say anything.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

We don't look at whether people are accomplished,well known personalities etc,but we look at the paperwork. The standards are the same regardless of what you've done or who you are,and many times we will get people who will say their name is adequate over a log book,or their log book is a jumble where we can't figure out if there are 100 cave dives there. The simplest process is those people who submit documentation with an Abe Davis/Wakulla award because this certifies 100 cave dives,and speeds the process up. I've had someone that has submitted an excel spreadsheet of dives,and I had to sit and manually separate 30ft reef dives from post training cave divers-yes this can be time consuming. In reality we don't want to slow down the process,but get people in there diving as much as possible and as fast as possible. Why? 1) A lot of effort was undertaken to open this site and build the steps,lets use the damn place. 2) People who opposed opening Wakulla claimed we had Emerald and weren't using it. The real reason it wasn't dove was because as you are aware is that Leon sinks can go bad and stay bad for sometime. Hence when it is good we need to get the numbers up for visibility purposes. If your friends think they were treated unfairly,and the process was impeded against them,then have them please email me or PM me,because I have interest in addressing this.

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Neither of these people was suggesting that their name or reputation should be good enough documentation. However, Jason kept asking for more and more detail on the logs- ie average depth on trimix dives. Really? I very much got the impression Jason was just on a little power trip. I will certainly suggest that both of them contact you, because the way they have been treated was wrong.

FWIW- here is a link to the application as it appears on the NSS-CDS website. http://www.safecavediving.com/forms/...-050508Rev.pdf

You'll note, Kelly, that it says nothing about what form any log or log information submitted should be in, or what data it must contain beyond the obvious (cave and or mix dive, etc.). It gives no specifications about providing any stupid info like an average depth for a trimix dive.

I've asked my friends to contact you, but as this all happened last week and they are still awaiting the committee's blessing, I doubt they will want to rock the boat.

I have to disagree on the Jason comments. He has accepted and was able to get every application I submitted approved. My application took a few weeks but it was because I submitted my log in excel which was my cave only log and there was some confusion about the number of total dives versus experience. I have only known Jason for about 5 months but he is always egar to help get applications through. Just a week or so ago he approved one in a day because an Abe Davis was submitted with it. Logs can be confusing since there is no standard for writing them. I agree with Kelly, if a log comes in with 100 dives and no depths, time and mix information then it may be harder to prove experience which is why they want the log in the first place. Many doctors are published in this world but I would not let them operate on me. Just my two cents worth in defense of a guy who has busted his butt to help at Wakulla and keeps Indian Springs available as well.

Regardless of status, I would like to see the logs. If they are on a napkin and not organized then I would agree with the time frame for approval. If they are neat and organized then I would not agree with the time for approval. Perhaps this issue can be cause for some added clarification to the log requirement? Don't get me wrong I like fast apporval but I have seen many documents filed in courts of law during discovery which stalled cases to the point the judge issued orders to compel and there is law standards for submission of discovery documents. Not speaking against your friends but the logs do need to be understandable by all on the panel. I know an award will get instant approval if all else is good but I would not agree people should be forced to go get an award to dive in the park. The DEP just issued new rules on what can and can not be required of divers diving on state properties regardless of the company they dive with.

BTW, safecavediving is NACD's site not NSS-CDS.

I'm not saying that the logs don't need to be understandable. I am saying that if the committee wants specific information included in the submitted logs, then they need to specify what information log submissions should contain. Since there is no standardized log format that everyone uses, this would save the committee effort, no?

Not everyone wants or cares about Abe Davis or Wakulla "awards". I for one, don't see the point.

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Originally Posted by harmstrong

I'm not saying that the logs don't need to be understandable. I am saying that if the committee wants specific information included in the submitted logs, then they need to specify what information log submissions should contain. Since there is no standardized log format that everyone uses, this would save the committee effort, no?

Not everyone wants or cares about Abe Davis or Wakulla "awards". I for one, don't see the point.

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Exactly and I agree. Just no need for the hostilities towards someone just trying to help. I thnk your post will get the matter resolved.

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Originally Posted by speleodiver

Exactly and I agree. Just no need for the hostilities towards someone just trying to help. I thnk your post will get the matter resolved.

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I'm not hostile towards Jason, I've known him for quite some time, I just call things the way I interpret them.

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Originally Posted by harmstrong

FWIW- here is a link to the application as it appears on the NSS-CDS website. http://www.safecavediving.com/forms/...-050508Rev.pdf

You'll note, Kelly, that it says nothing about what form any log or log information submitted should be in, or what data it must contain beyond the obvious (cave and or mix dive, etc.). It gives no specifications about providing any stupid info like an average depth for a trimix dive.

I've asked my friends to contact you, but as this all happened last week and they are still awaiting the committee's blessing, I doubt they will want to rock the boat.

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Criteria #4 may be the reason for the information that was being requested. Logs come in many different formats,and sometimes it is easier for the diver to help with interpretation. Hypothetically someone could submit "Eagles Nest". Eagles Nest to the debris mound is 110',and there have some people who turn this into a glorified cavern dive,but doesn't meet the criteria #4. I recall one log having Shangri La for 2 hour long dive-what? A honest effort is being done to provide for a fast process for the dive community,yet provide the information the park needs without them trying to figure out the alphabet soup of certifying agencies. We could always turn it over to the understaffed,overworked park management who doesn't understand cave diving-I wonder how fast that would get approved? If your friends have a grievence,I promise it won't be "rocking the boat",but it needs to be heard from them,and resolved for them.

LOL, come on Kelly, don't take it personally.

I passed the info on- they'll contact you or not, up to them.

And you've known me long enough to know that any time I see the opportunity to throw rocks at the "establishment" I will. I'm sure you all have the best of intentions.

As a recent Emerald applicant I can say that Jason was friendly and helpful however before I ever got to/found him... if I google "Emerald Sink dive application" I can find several outdated versions, NONE of which have contact information on where said application should be submitted. This would probably be a great start to actually streamlining the process. The current "process" is hardly conducive to the "damn place" getting used. My 2 cents as a tourist cave diver.

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Originally Posted by brandonmc

. The current "process" is hardly conducive to the "damn place" getting used. My 2 cents as a tourist cave diver.

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You are right,and steps have been taken to fix that. The park previously wanted us faxing a request with all divers signing the form,but now at least we can go by email. I agree,if the documentation out there is old and outdated,then it needs to be changed-can you direct me to the sites you used.

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Originally Posted by harmstrong

LOL, come on Kelly, don't take it personally.

I passed the info on- they'll contact you or not, up to them.

And you've known me long enough to know that any time I see the opportunity to throw rocks at the "establishment" I will. I'm sure you all have the best of intentions.

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I not taking it personally,and you know me well enough too that if there is a problem,I sure want to try to resolve it versus throwing my hands up and saying,"C'est dommage". Your friend did send me a PM for which I am grateful. PS Santa said you were a good girl,and they are sending you another bag of special cave diving rocks for throwing" :-) :-) :-)

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Originally Posted by harmstrong

...Not everyone wants or cares about Abe Davis or Wakulla "awards". I for one, don't see the point.

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The point of the safety awards is to show the State, and news media that cave diving can be done safely. When Sheck Exley started the safety awards, it was so we could show that hundreds of cave divers have made over 100 safe cave dives. I don't know the latest numbers, but I suspect it is well over 1000 now.

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Originally Posted by jcook

Please do school me on my BS Mat or do you only see your own logical fallacies?

I think you just have a personal issue with me and you don't have the balls to say anything.

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I just don't like you, ain't it obvious? After the last few dialogues we've had, who would?



Just about every reply here on this thread has been me schooling you on your BS, k thanks bye.

I would spend significantly more time and money in this area diving if more sites were open.

I need to get off my butt and send in my Emerald paperwork.

TF

I had no issues getting access to Clear Cut, Emerald, or Indian. The fact is, Tally is a tough place to have recreational diving, from the deco time making it hard to work within park hours, to the cost of trimix, to the seasonal diving with low vis every time it rains making it hard for a good dive shop to stay open. Until the new shop opened up recently, getting trimix fills required driving back to Edds or Mariana/HS every day as well.

Most of my Wakulla Co diving so far I get fills in High Springs or Marianna, and typically stay in those places the night before and/or after diving due to how hard it was to get fills in Tallahassee. Because of this, I end up stopping at a subway near I10/I75 on my way home rather than eating in Wakulla Co. There's a new shop which should help, but so far I would say my diving there has made almost no financial impact. If the shop stays after a long flood or two, then I think there's a chance to improve tourism $$$.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

I had no issues getting access to Clear Cut, Emerald, or Indian. The fact is, Tally is a tough place to have recreational diving, from the deco time making it hard to work within park hours, to the cost of trimix, to the seasonal diving with low vis every time it rains making it hard for a good dive shop to stay open. Until the new shop opened up recently, getting trimix fills required driving back to Edds or Mariana/HS every day as well.

Most of my Wakulla Co diving so far I get fills in High Springs or Marianna, and typically stay in those places the night before and/or after diving due to how hard it was to get fills in Tallahassee. Because of this, I end up stopping at a subway near I10/I75 on my way home rather than eating in Wakulla Co. There's a new shop which should help, but so far I would say my diving there has made almost no financial impact. If the shop stays after a long flood or two, then I think there's a chance to improve tourism $$$.

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you, however, are no tourist diver my dear. ;-)

Dive safe,

Celia

The shop is not going anywhere. We made the decision to open here based on our own desires which are mainly what you just mentioned. Wakulla Springs may be the desire of most but there are way better sites here to dive if access is gained. We wanted to complete the gap between Marianna and the High Springs area. We are keeping 10 t-bottles of helium on hand and have plenty more where that came from. With our compressors we have found it faster and more reliable to just stick the trimix right into tanks. We are within .5% accuracy this way. A set of 108’s take about 10 minutes to fill from empty. Refills from typical cave diving is less than 4 minutes. We have 10/65 banked but topping off tanks with it, there is a waiting period to ensure analyzed accuracy. Homogenization just takes time we can’t control. All other gases we bank and filling to any mix is not a problem.
There are many new things on the horizon for Wakulla County and diving is only one of them. The folks here have listened and things are being discussed. I left a meeting this morning in which Panacea is launching new events to promote tourism there. Spearfishing is one and diving charters is another. While it is a sleepy little town, they do understand the need for economy and in my opinion, I would not be getting invitations to attend meetings and sit on committees if these folks were not interested in what I have to say and what my little part in diving and spearfishing could actually offer this whole county.

James I appreciate the support and vode of confidence. Our shop has opened the door on meeting park schedules as well. I dive daily somewhere if I'm not in meetings. I can pull a 3-4 hour dive and not have to get up early or feel rushed to do so. I have never been late making it out before they close. On another note, there are 2 subways here within 4 miles of the shop but there are way better places to eat at about the same price.

In both Marianna and High Springs, my buddy and I typically do 2 dives per day. Bottom time averages 60-90 minutes with a short deco stop. If access were not an issue, what systems could we dive to maintain this pattern? A single 3-4 hour dive with lots of deco is not what we like to do on a trip to FL. Pardon my ignorance, but I would like to know what systems we are talking about here that would interest us. We are definitely interested in diving the Wakulla area. Again, if access were not an issue, how many cave systems are we talking about that don't require trimix and hours of deco to dive?

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Originally Posted by gasdiver

In both Marianna and High Springs, my buddy and I typically do 2 dives per day. Bottom time averages 60-90 minutes with a short deco stop. If access were not an issue, what systems could we dive to maintain this pattern? A single 3-4 hour dive with lots of deco is not what we like to do on a trip to FL. Pardon my ignorance, but I would like to know what systems we are talking about here that would interest us. We are definitely interested in diving the Wakulla area. Again, if access were not an issue, how many cave systems are we talking about that don't require trimix and hours of deco to dive?

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There is plenty there that doesn't require you to rack up deco. A lot of us just prefer one good long dive to short ones.

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Originally Posted by gasdiver

In both Marianna and High Springs, my buddy and I typically do 2 dives per day. Bottom time averages 60-90 minutes with a short deco stop. If access were not an issue, what systems could we dive to maintain this pattern? A single 3-4 hour dive with lots of deco is not what we like to do on a trip to FL. Pardon my ignorance, but I would like to know what systems we are talking about here that would interest us. We are definitely interested in diving the Wakulla area. Again, if access were not an issue, how many cave systems are we talking about that don't require trimix and hours of deco to dive?

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I think his questions are very valid to the usual "tourist" diver and to the point, can anyone answer them?

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Originally Posted by gasdiver

In both Marianna and High Springs, my buddy and I typically do 2 dives per day. Bottom time averages 60-90 minutes with a short deco stop. If access were not an issue, what systems could we dive to maintain this pattern? A single 3-4 hour dive with lots of deco is not what we like to do on a trip to FL. Pardon my ignorance, but I would like to know what systems we are talking about here that would interest us. We are definitely interested in diving the Wakulla area. Again, if access were not an issue, how many cave systems are we talking about that don't require trimix and hours of deco to dive?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

I think his questions are very valid to the usual "tourist" diver and to the point, can anyone answer them?

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There are a limited number of good visibility and little deco dives in Tally. If all you're worried about is limited deco, then there are more options. However I have found that as long as I can scooter, the cost of trimix isn't much more per minute of fun than a swimming nitrox dive (that's how I justify it). The iDive300 makes deco a lot shorter.

There may be some changes coming soon. The purpose of this thread is to see how much interest there is. If things change there will be at least 6 caves which will fall within the stated category. While there are lots of deep caves here, there are some really nice <100 feet in depth caves as well. Several with 50' tall by 80' wide rooms and passage. Add the Wacissa River inventory to the list and there will be as many as Marianna. I will certainly post the updates as they come.
I had a very nice meeting with some locals today. This group has interest in turning things around for the county. Many of them were non divers and lifelong residents of Wakulla. The more interest expressed in diving the more these people will see the value. They have been fed the crap that kept diving restricted for so long, even they do not believe it now. Diving has been ongoing here for decades and deaths are few. Those that have occurred were untrained or just made foolish mistakes. The most recent (as tragic as it was) has certainly changed some opinions about the body bag statement and if diving is really as dangerous to the whole community of cave divers regardless of training. The simple fact of what happened has many questioning the very people who placed themselves to higher standards of immortality. Data has been shown and given to key community leaders. They just refuse to run with the ramblings of one certain group any longer.

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Originally Posted by Kevin Carlisle

There is plenty there that doesn't require you to rack up deco. A lot of us just prefer one good long dive to short ones.

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I've go no problem with what others prefer, I was simply stating what I prefer. What are the names of "the plenty"?

Before I plan a trip to a location I've never been to (e.g. Mexico), I like to research what options are available and try to determine what sites fit my preferences, skill level etc... Speleodiver started this thread with the question "How many would dive in Wakulla County?" Great question. I would like to know what sites are or might be opened in the future so I can answer that question. It sounds like there are some sites that would fit into the type of diving my buddy and I like to do. With the names of the sites, I can do my own research, but not being familiar with the area, the politics and all that, I have no idea what may or may not become open. Others have expressed their reasons why they don't dive the area very often and they are the same reasons we don't. If there are enough sites to dive over a long weekend, we are much more likely to plan a trip to the area.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

There are a limited number of good visibility and little deco dives in Tally. If all you're worried about is limited deco, then there are more options. However I have found that as long as I can scooter, the cost of trimix isn't much more per minute of fun than a swimming nitrox dive (that's how I justify it). The iDive300 makes deco a lot shorter.

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Great vis is not an absolute requirement, nor is limited deco. I've spent many many hours doing deco in the water and in a decompression chamber on the deck of a pitching work boat. The novelty of that experience wore off many years ago. I've been bent and seen my friends bent. As far as vis goes, I've spent many hours working in water so muddy you would never take a light because it would do you no good. Deco and vis are not the issue.

To me, dive trips are vacation. Making a morning dive, having lunch, getting fills, shooting the bull at the fill station, making an afternoon dive, getting more fills, then dinner ... all add up to the trip experience. From what I've seen in cave country, there are a lot of divers like me. These "vacation" divers are not out to lay line, double/triple stage, make push dives or anything of that nature. They are simply enjoying the sport and the whole experience. It is these divers that will bring tourist dollars into Wakulla County and the more they understand what's available to them, the more likely they are to come and bring their money with them.

Alot of the Leon Sinks would make a wonderfull dive for most levels of overhead training. The stretch between Inisfree Sink through better than a 1000' upstream of Upper River is all shallow, passes through multiple sinks for a variety of caverns, and is very large passage. The stretch between Promise Sink and and Clearcut is also shallow with large passage, multiple side passages, including circuits, passing through even more sinks and has a greater range of cave changes, especially between Venture and ClearCut. Emerald through Cheryl is shallow, great looking large passage, a few offshoots and a few sinks to traverse while doing so as well as the standard Emerald - Cheryl circuit.

Half of the above is on Wakulla State Park property, the other half is on National Forest property. Sullivan is also on National Forest property, and the upstream dive wouldn't be a bad dive for full cave divers with only a short dip to 140' before shallowing up again.

The National Forest also contains Big Dismal and Little Dismal(Hammock Sink). Big Dismal has alot of passage without being terribly deep. Little Dismal is goes deep fast, but with a succession of big rooms, so you don't have to go far to find something interesting.

Sally Ward and Wakulla Springs are both on Wakulla State Park property. Sally Ward wouldn't require a deep dive to enjoy the top of the Cube Room and the passage leading up to it. Wakulla is obviously very deep right away.

Other deep dives on Wakulla State Park property include the stretches from Emerald downstream to Clearcut(which leads to shallow passage), or branching off to MM Sink(which leads to FishHole) and eventually leads back downstream of Promise. Turner Sink puts you in the middle of deep Wakulla Passage.

Cherokee is a decent OW sinkhole on Wakulla State Park property.

There are more sites on park lands in the area like Natural Bridge State Park(full of sinkholes that connect by cave), State Forests, and National Wildlife Refuges. There are even more sites on private lands.

Thanks for the info Bugman, I look forward to the day when we can plan a trip to the area and dive these systems.

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Originally Posted by gasdiver

Thanks for the info Bugman, I look forward to the day when we can plan a trip to the area and dive these systems.

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Speliodiver and his shop are doing a good job of keeping up with current conditions in the area.

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

Alot of the Leon Sinks would make a wonderfull dive for most levels of overhead training. The stretch between Inisfree Sink through better than a 1000' upstream of Upper River is all shallow, passes through multiple sinks for a variety of caverns, and is very large passage. The stretch between Promise Sink and and Clearcut is also shallow with large passage, multiple side passages, including circuits, passing through even more sinks and has a greater range of cave changes, especially between Venture and ClearCut. Emerald through Cheryl is shallow, great looking large passage, a few offshoots and a few sinks to traverse while doing so as well as the standard Emerald - Cheryl circuit.

Half of the above is on Wakulla State Park property, the other half is on National Forest property. Sullivan is also on National Forest property, and the upstream dive wouldn't be a bad dive for full cave divers with only a short dip to 140' before shallowing up again.

The National Forest also contains Big Dismal and Little Dismal(Hammock Sink). Big Dismal has alot of passage without being terribly deep. Little Dismal is goes deep fast, but with a succession of big rooms, so you don't have to go far to find something interesting.

Sally Ward and Wakulla Springs are both on Wakulla State Park property. Sally Ward wouldn't require a deep dive to enjoy the top of the Cube Room and the passage leading up to it. Wakulla is obviously very deep right away.

Other deep dives on Wakulla State Park property include the stretches from Emerald downstream to Clearcut(which leads to shallow passage), or branching off to MM Sink(which leads to FishHole) and eventually leads back downstream of Promise. Turner Sink puts you in the middle of deep Wakulla Passage.

Cherokee is a decent OW sinkhole on Wakulla State Park property.

There are more sites on park lands in the area like Natural Bridge State Park(full of sinkholes that connect by cave), State Forests, and National Wildlife Refuges. There are even more sites on private lands.

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I don't think the MM tunnel leads to the Fish Hole conduit. I think it just goes over it but they don't connect.