Single tank Cavern or Intro Level dives and bailout bottle.

Any of you cavern or intro level divers (diving singes), do you dive with a pony bottle for emergencies only?

Also (those more experienced), is this acceptable as I can see how it may tempt someone to push their limits (I wouldn't) and not use it for its intended purpose. I realize that this level has very specific gas planning rules and penetration limits, but I have not seen one thing while reading about pony bottles.


I can see that if you plan the back up gas to match a third of your penetration usage you would have much more of a safety cushion.

Now if your diving it for the first time and its in the way it could be an entanglement issue or a silting issue if it throws off you trim or boyancy.

Thanks

If you dive a single, you dive a single. A pony is a stage. Intro and cavern should never dive solo, your buddy is redundant gas. If you have an issue with a single you should dive doubles on sixth's.
My feeling was one day I had to dive with doubles so I started with doubles. I can also say with certainty taking cavern in double 104's is a bear.

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Originally Posted by Wizard

If you dive a single, you dive a single. A pony is a stage. Intro and cavern should never dive solo, your buddy is redundant gas. If you have an issue with a single you should dive doubles on sixth's.
My feeling was one day I had to dive with doubles so I started with doubles. I can also say with certainty taking cavern in double 104's is a bear.

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I do not dive a pony as of now and that was kind of what I was thinking after reading the cavern book, bu being that I did not see it state "pony" I figured I would ask.

Thanks for the input

I won't go so far as to say that a pony is a stage as a stage is part of the gas plan while a pony is more of small buddy bottle that is along for the ride but is not (and must not be) considered in the gas plan.

But otherwise I agree, if you are not comfortable in an over head in a single tank (and I was not) just dive doubles to 1/6ths instead.

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

I won't go so far as to say that a pony is a stage as a stage is part of the gas plan while a pony is more of small buddy bottle that is along for the ride but is not (and must not be) considered in the gas plan.

But otherwise I agree, if you are not comfortable in an over head in a single tank (and I was not) just dive doubles to 1/6ths instead.

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This question stems mainly from some OW diving discussions and people doing NDL dives on wrecks just at the limits and using pony bottles and using single tanks with pony bottles, I did not take notice of anyone on the charters we were on that were using doubles having a stage bottle but then I was looking more at those that had single tanks and had pony bottles. Makes sense to dive more conservative 1/6ths and doubles but wanted to know if anyone (cavern or intro level) took a pony along for the sake of just being prepared if the worst possible scenario arose. And if it was outside the lines of this training level, as the books I am reading do not mention pony bottles specifically. So if you look at it as a stage then it would not be with in the level of a "cavern or intro" dive" from what I have been reading, but I did not look at it as a stage.

pm sent

1. We do not use the term "pony" in cave diving. If it's part of the dive plan, it's a stage. If not, it's a buddy bottle.

2. There's nothing wrong with a solo cavern dive per se, if properly equipped, and it's allowed where you are.

If u want to be really safe dive a single h valve and a pony and from my cavern and intro course single tank u can dive to 1/3 and doubles 1/6.

As a cavern or intro diver you don't use a stage nor pony. If your diving a single tank it is recommended to dive it with a Y or H valve with redundant regulators using rule of 3rd's.

I agree with Michael on this one. Pony is an openwater term and not used in cavediving. I call it a stage weather its figured in or not,and a buddy bottle if Im solo.

Thanks, we are working to use doubles in our training and will be using H valves if we do not and use singles. This again stems more from what I have read, and as of now I only have OW experience and well it was just something that crossed my mind while reading and thinking. The fact that its not refered to as a pony in cave diving and is refered to as a buddy bottle and used for solo diving (which I do not intend to do voluntarily) actually does make sense. Terminology I suppose is what made me think about this.

appreciate the input

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Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo

As a cavern or intro diver you don't use a stage nor pony. If your diving a single tank it is recommended to dive it with a Y or H valve with redundant regulators using rule of 3rd's.

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but remember current standards are 1/3 of single tank or 1/6 of Double tanks. No decompression. An intro diver shouldn't be carring stage or deco bottles at all.

Yes I did read that, and I think that terminology is what made me think. I though of a stage or deco as something that was used (planned part) for the dive and a pony as just a back up. (I now see the error of my thinking :) ) so I suppose we will have to just dive so much when we are done our training that we can move on to apprentice in a year or so and keep things moving....



Thanks again

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Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo

but remember current standards are 1/3 of single tank or 1/6 of Double tanks. No decompression. An intro diver shouldn't be carring stage or deco bottles at all.

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I've seen a cavern diver diving a single aluminum 80, OW gear, but had a Al 40 as a "stage". I asked about it, and the single 40 wasn't in any gas plan he had, just was there if anything happened to his back gas. I saw nothing wrong with that, and in fact it may be argued that this is possibly safer than back mount doubles. Seemed a logical way for someone that had no interest in going further than Cavern, to do so safely without a rather large gear purchase.

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Originally Posted by mainedvr

This question stems mainly from some OW diving discussions and people doing NDL dives on wrecks just at the limits and using pony bottles and using single tanks with pony bottles, I did not take notice of anyone on the charters we were on that were using doubles having a stage bottle but then I was looking more at those that had single tanks and had pony bottles. Makes sense to dive more conservative 1/6ths and doubles but wanted to know if anyone (cavern or intro level) took a pony along for the sake of just being prepared if the worst possible scenario arose. And if it was outside the lines of this training level, as the books I am reading do not mention pony bottles specifically. So if you look at it as a stage then it would not be with in the level of a "cavern or intro" dive" from what I have been reading, but I did not look at it as a stage.

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For a brief period of time as I moved into deeper technical diving 20 or so years ago, I used a slung 40 cu ft tank as a redundant reserve gas source, but very quickly realized that it's utility was pretty limited and that redundantly configured doubles made more sense in the big picture.

Where I see such an approach as having merit is for a OW solo diver who could benefit from some more ascent options and/or time to work a problem in the event of a failure. To an extent I also see where that logic could be applied to cavern diving, especially as diving thirds in a single tank, even with a Y or H valve, has always struck me as a really stupid way to plan gas, and in no way would I ever consider doing it solo as it is not fully redundant.

In that regard a buddy bottle makes sense for a single tank cavern diver, especially if solo, however by the time you go to the trouble of bringing along a 30 or a 40 as a buddy bottle, it's not much more effort or expense to just go whole hog and use isolator manifolded or independent doubles and just dive 1/6ths. You have the same amount of penetration gas, but a much larger reserve and full redundancy.

Keeping in mind that my training is only slightly ahead of yours, I had this same thought. Early on. I took an Adv Nitrox/Deep class to get trained on the deco bottle but really, two full sized tanks are better. Instead of doubles I chose sidemount and am very happy with it. Totally isolated gas and a lot easier to get out of the back of a car than a set of 70 pound doubles!

If you do want to look at side mount, I use the Dive Rite Nomad and like it. Others swear by Edd Sorenson's modified Hollis rig. If I wasn't an uncompensated DR poster child I'd seriously look at Edd's rig.

Leam

Edd has mods for the nomad as well, Just FYI

The Nomad and SMS 100 will lift about as much as you'll ever need to carry, but for Cavern and Intro in Sidemount, the SMS 50 would be very hard to beat. It's minimalist and trims very well with little or no futzing required - and it's perfect for two smaller tanks such as AL 80s, AL72s, Steel 72s, or even steel X7-100s.

We do an Edd style old school loop bungee on our SMS 50s and it's superb.