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Hand prints, fin prints, etc are everywhere in caves especially Peacock, Ginnie and other really popular sites.
Why not take a 12" or 18" drywall knife and smooth it out similar to shackle on drywall (similar to the 5th and final cote over sheetrock)? Caves with flow will return to normal very quickly but even caves that have very little flow with return to normal thanks to mother nature in a few weeks?
A repaired hand print looks better then the actual print...no?
Does the repair effort cause more damage?
Well like everything else if its done properly of course not but specifically do you mean my damage?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
Disturbing an 24" radius to repair a 8" hand print makes sense if it smooths out the clay and restores its original shape? No?
and if its not perfect its still better then a hand print? No?
Thanks dude, just goes to show that there are a lot of dam smart and fine cave divers out there.......Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Trouble is if its not a sanctioned effort and is done in a wonton manner you can have more damage then when you start. Featuring joint compount down is a skill. If done right you don't need to sandpaper the wall down. Hardware stores sell alot of sandpaper for people that think they know what their doing. Now add the increased difficulty of doing it underwater in a cave. It sounds easier then it is. When we did the Cow Springs Restoration the first thing we had to figure out was how to rig me in place so I could work and not cause more damage. Without the rigging I would have had to hover in place for two hours at a time. It took me six hours. If the clay bank was on my studio work bench one hour tops but it wasn't. As another example take take the little old lady in Spain a few months ago who took it upon herself to restore her church's priceless Christ painting because she knew how the pros do it. She destroyed the artwork and now faces criminal charges. First off, we need to address the problem of why the damage exists in the first place, a better option is to develope the skills so you don't have the destruction in the first place. One of the problems we had the first few months after the Cow Springs restoration was divers swimming over the claybank to look at the repair and leaving fin marks. Common sense not being very common. I think restoration efforts to restore the damage we have done as a community is a great idea but it has to be a planned effort santioned by either one of the agencies (NFSA?), property owner, or state park.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jont
You'd need a giant broom to take the gouges out of the floor in the back of Twin. Or maybe some sort of blower? Or a really good biblical flood. My money's on the flood.
Yes. The best time to make superficial repairs is just before an impending flood because the organic material will fill in irregularities. Many times good intentions go awry,and can cause more damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
She made that fresco of Jesus look like Mr BillQuote:
Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo
Man I sure would get the landowners okay in writing,or for public owned caves a permit,because repair with good intentions can be considered vandalism,which is prosecutable under Florida law.Quote:
community is a great idea but it has to be a planned effort santioned by either one of the agencies (NFSA?), property owner, or state park.
Like the Little old ladyQuote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
I think a lot of the damage we see in the tourist caves in the clay floors repair themselves over time with the floods. Certainly this happens in several places in Peacock for example. It seems like every time I dive that cave, the floor looks different to me. I would think that more delicate sections of caves that don't receive significant flood water would be more appropriate for human cave repair, but again as Michael Angelo has already indicated, this can be very tricky business. I would be a little nervous about any one individual taking it upon themselves to decide when it would be appropriate to initiate the repairs or who should complete the repairs.
Fair enough and Kelly brings up good points as well, so what efforts are being organized? and how far along is this process? who is responsible? line keepers?Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo
I see a LOT of complaints about people F**king up (while learning or not) and thats fine I have no problem with criticism, judgment, insults...whatever...the point is that it makes more sense to focus on solutions rather then pointing out something that every active cave diver sees ever time they dive.
Solutions make a lot more sense.
At the end of the day we're really talking about personal responsibility and that implies accountability and I don't know how you instill that in a student in a five day class......
Another issue is that how do you teach someone all of the necessary self rescue techniques without tossing someone around blind, screwing with buoyancy, etc.......blind exits, lost line drills, etc are going to cause dents in clay/mud.
I'm at Hugo's this very minute waiting for my Colossal Surf and Turf from the Gibson's menu, I didn't notice the Chicago location before this response.
Go dive orange grove and tell me a quick and dirty repair wouldn't look a hell of a lot better than the sorry state it's in.
What is too bad is we don't have the flooding like we used to. In the past you could count on the caves flooding every spring,and this influx of debris would "heal" the caves. Where most people are upset that the caves flood and they have lost access,I am very happy because this allows the healing process to occur,plus carry organic nutrients to troglobites.Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Thornton
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenwood_60
OG unfortunately doesn't get the violent rapid reversal that P1,P2,and P3 get,so bringing in organic material to fill in the floor doesn't happen as readily. Repairing this section would be a little more problematic since there is so much clay,and nothing to hide the repair attempt. I have seen OG under go a lot of change of the last 15 years-from a lot of loose silt in the main conduit to none at all. Where Peacock gets the designation of an entry level cave dive,the passage of OG to Challange deserves a more experienced cave diver due to the smaller nature.
One of the first things we can do is get rid of the terms "tourist cave" or "training cave". These terms are just excuses to make the lowering of our standards "OK". These terms did not exist or at least were not used with the frivolousness that they are used today when I did my first cave dives in 1997. Cave diving isn't a 5 day course its a lifetime of learning. Yes, everyone screws up and at some point you make a gouge or hand or fin print, some divers will cuss themselves and feel bad about it and some will go "oh well it's a tourist cave." Restoration will only treat a symptom. Training and experience and proper attitude treats the disease. If your in a "self rescue" situation please for the love of God save your life, but again if the amount of damage is from "self rescues" it is not a restoration issue it is a training and experience issue. I love the idea that we can now do underwater cave restoration, I would love to be involved with more restoration projects but no one wants to spend his time cleaning other peoples messes. I say this not as a soap box but as a plea, please please please don't make it so that the only way we can protect a spring is by keeping cave divers out of them. My Chicago address has been mentioned but also realize I have had a High Springs address for almost ten years now.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo
Add sacrificial cave to that list of terminology that needs to go away. This term has almost cost us access to a couple caves.
Calling a cave a "tourist cave" doesn't lower standards. Instructors do that all by themselves.
We could solve the problem with instant hydraulic cement. If everyone took a big baggie of it with them on every cave dive, mixed it and sloped it into the holes in the floor, then it would fill in the hole and harden it so no one could put another print in it. Eventually, after several generations of cave divers, we could stucco the entire cave. Then, the artist could go in and start making little crayfish statues, a bust of Sheck Exley in every cave, colored cement to permanently install arrows into the floor, we could set allthread into the floor for line tie off, make fake stalagmites and stalactites, the possibilities are endless.
+1 Joe ....Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
The state of cave instruction is at an all time low. I just found about a person who completed cave 1 without ever doing a lights out/zero vis exit. I see poorly trimmed, poorly configured, poorly trained cave divers all more often now a days. Does anyone EVER fail a cave course anymore?
Some cave instructors have only been cave divers for a year or so & do not even live near caves...go figure that one out.
No cave instructors I know of have used the term sacrificial cave, tourist cave, training cave or any other such terminology or philosophy. We on the NSS-CDS training committee certainly do not train cave instructors to think that way, nor does the NACD or any IANTD instructor trainers I know of.
:smt100
IRT the OP. Bill Huth and I attempted to do some work repairing fin marks, handprints on the Roller-Coaster in the Devil's system one time. Spent about an hour and could not really see the benefit.
Repairing that section alone with trowels, spatulas etc would take MANY hours, and I am not sure it could be done.
Nature does it best....when systems flood .. handprints go away. We have seen it at Peacock many times ....:clapper
Many of the marks I see are in sections where the divers are by virtue of jumps and navigational decisions supposed to be fill cave. So that's 8 days a training at a minimum, and in most cases it's two or three classes separated by some diving, mentoring or at least interaction with other cave divers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jont
I am pretty sure most full cave divers understand that hand prints and fin marks are prima facia evidence of either a crappy attitude or poor skills, especially if they happen on a regular/frequent basis.
Another larger problem may be divers failing to properly and accurately self assess their limitations, or perhaps following other divers and not turning the dive when they get in an area that exceeds their level of ability.
I agree with Kelly and others that we are sanctioning damage to caves when we formally refer to a cave a "training cave" a "sacrificial cave" or informally dismiss a cave as a training cave. Their are usually areas in the caves where training commonly occurs where the bottom composition is going to be much more resistant to any training induced damage. A responsible instructor is hopefully not going to conduct a lights out drill in an area of the cave where the bottom is clay or silt, especially when the line runs low along the floor, and a good instructor is hopefully not going to take students into sensitive areas when they are not demonstrating the required level of skill. Now, on the other hand, if instructors are regarding caves as "training" caves or "sacrificial caves" then all bets are off.
That might be a more productive area to seek solutions. If we adopt a general model of repairing caves, then we are also inferring that cave damage is less of a problem as it can be "fixed" and that damage is ok as we've got a repair team to come in and fix it later. That's just going to aggravate the problem.
----
What is depressing is that the few times I've seen OG get a new floor due to floods over the last 5 years, the pristine floor didn't last long at all, suggesting there are an awful lot of crappy divers out there.
NSS-CDS standards have a section that tells instructors where drills can be run and where drills cannot be run. Some of these apply to specific caves in Florida and specific caves in Mexico.Quote:
Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster
As I stated above there is no reference to tourist, training or sacrificial caves.
But using those terms specialy when an instructor uses those terms creates a mindset. An it's that mindset that lowers starndardsQuote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
I'll get right on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by OFG-1
see post #11.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt
Hey guys,
Guess I made a huge mistake referring to Peacock as a "Tourist Cave". My gaff was not meant to imply that Peacock was in any way not to be protected or respected in any degree. I only used the term "Tourist Cave" to imply that this cave received a lot of traffic by many different divers with different levels of experience and skills on an ongoing basis. As a Cave Instructor, I obviously teach my students as well as personally strive to protect and respect the caves at all costs on EVERY dive! I would hope this principle is fundamental to cave instruction regardless of which agency is involved.
I will make sure I don't use that term in the future, as I can see how people could misconstrue what I meant by the term.
Don't worry, Randy, not everyone is offended by that term. I'm a cave tourist (meaning I only go in caves with gold line, that a thousand people have been in before me), so any cave I go in is a tourist cave.
Tell me more about these "Sacrificial" caves! Are we talking virgins here? I have a vision of grass skirts and loud drums... Going to my happy place now!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
I for one am getting very sick and tired of what my dive buddy and I refer to as cattle crossings. Sad part is that some of these areas are far beyond what I would expect a student to be able to reach. I would also think that if the student had that good of a SAC rate the instructor would have turned the dive just on the fact that the student is destroying the cave. I knew during the entire training dives I did, my instructor was watching and every time I started to get near the floor I was thinking, "God please don't let me touch it, please don't let me touch it." I also remember the very first dive I did with him, he turned the dive because I was screwing it up. (OBTW, we turned it a few feet past the sign in OG and there is a rather funny reason why). There was no way he was going to allow me to go any farther. So with all this said, I feel that these hand prints are not always caused by students but already certified divers. (check out the thread about the diver with his / her group in front of the dive team behind them in OG).
Semi hijack:Quote:
Originally Posted by rjack
If those are what i think you are refering to, they were there over 25 years ago. I remember seeing them for the first time thinking to myself that someone had a really bad day back there. It looks as if someone almost walked out or dropped the bottom of a stage vertically every few feet. The was a serious spider web of lines back then - maybe five different lines in that area. Any old timers know what happened? always been curious ....
Oh yes, I have seen Reggie fail at least 3 people, he's a hell of a great guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt
and
In my first CCR Cave class I was "incomplete" because of equipment issues and incalculable bad luck.
Jon
The marks in Twin have gotten a lot worse over the last year or so. It's really sad to see the floor so beaten up. And it's not just hand prints. There are trail marks from SPGs next to the gold line in the Subway Tunnel. No reason to be there since there's another 10 feet of passage from there to the ceiling. Whenever I swim through there I gently wave my hand over the trench marks in an attempt to get some of the silt in the area to fill the trenches back in. I'm seeing some progress over the last several months but as I fix some of the trenches new ones appear.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjack
Thank YouQuote:
Originally Posted by Randy Thornton
It would be nice to see one of the "conservation" organizations cover this in a summit at a conference.
Just a thought.
"They" would need a speaker/moderator, are you volunteering?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
I don't recall the name of where Ben M and I went.Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
Right at the 1st T
Jump right from the mainline arrow 1/2 way around the circuit (high on the lefthand wall) to a new line maybe 35degrees forward and high on the right.
Following that line straight, at least it seemed fairly straight ahead. This was the worst area. Is this the subway tunnel?
We then did a duckunder on the right where the floor damage was vastly less before getting to an EOL. I don't recall if that was a jump or the end end.
The Subway Tunnel is the main tunnel. The first 1000' before the 1st T. The area you are talking about is the Training Room. The Training Room is clean compared to the way the Subway Tunnel looks these days.
OK Great so we all agree that thats there's a problem that needs to be addressed....super!
Nebulous terms like "teaching proper technique" have NO value and border the absurd....why you ask because technique by definition is "a method of accomplishing a desired aim" this implies these skills are learned, therefore skills are demonstrated to the newbe (I mean me) hopefully by individuals with a far greater comprehension of the task at hand, over time with practice proper technique is developed.
So how specifically can you blind someone in a cave (a diver in training), spin them around , upside down etc., totally disorientate them, jam them far away from the line with no tie off points and expect them to find the line then do a blind 1000' plus exit without some damage to the mud/clay floor or whatever else?
Reality and common sense clearly dictates that some damage is a necessary part of training.
So maybe "sacrificial caves" aren't such a bad idea because if standards are enforced it will bring about a net loss in damage once the entire environment is factored in, you'll have more damage in the "training caves" but far, far less in the caves that are in the 100 dives/hours category and speaking of that limited access caves need to increase i number rather then decrease.
The other factor is how do these superficial, dings and gouges harm the cave environment to the point that there's an environmental concern that could effect the general public? Is water quality affected by this? Are species of plants or animals being driven to extinction? Could this result in an energy shortage? food shortage?
Actually, it's quite easy to do the lost line drill without doing damage to the cave. All the instructor has to do is choose the location in the cave where the drill is done very carefully. There are plenty of areas where there is minimal silt on a limestone floor and gently brushing your fingertips along the limestone will do no damage to it.
And as far as spinning, turning upside down, jamming them far away, how realistic is that really? I have my students swap masks and then move them about 15' away from the line for most line drills. Even then about half of them have difficulty finding the line.
We don't need sacrificial caves. We need more thinking when it comes to conducting training.
Hey Rob:Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
Your statement is rational, logical and it makes sense but I disagree and here's why:
1) For people that want to play it safe and do short dives on OC and never really push the envelope your plan makes sense and I agree but the perfect scenario you laid out is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE in all caves.
2) I noticed you used the word MOST and not ALL when you referenced your students and teaching process.
3) Now I KNOW that you have a few students that really want to go the extra mile and I KNOW that you have put them through a lot more then that because you wanted to prepare them for the type of diving you were sure they were going to do as soon as they were handed a card and that says great things about you and every other instructor out there that steps up like I know you ............BUT, it also puts you in a very unfair position because you, me and every other person I know can't and never will be able to read minds........and because you're a good guy you will feel bad when someone kills themselves even when they break the rules.
4) How realistic is the spinning, wrapping up, bla, bla, bla well I've had 3 cave instructors in my life and 2 of them did just that, most recently I did exactly that with the added hardship of not wearing a mask so I had to deal with the water in the nose issue and after a nose job and "other" things, lets just say that it's a real issue.
5) and I think it makes better business sense as well but that would also depend on cooperation between agencies and I'd need more time to explain it.
I still can't get an answer to the following question:
The other factor is how do these superficial, dings and gouges harm the cave environment to the point that there's an environmental concern that could effect the general public? Is water quality affected by this? Are species of plants or animals being driven to extinction? Could this result in an energy shortage? food shortage?
Thank you, when I have more time over the weekend I'll start a new thread and discuss why cooperation is better for everyone including the business of diving.
One would argue it is aesthetic harm that occurs,but is there some real environmental concern? Yes. By disrupting the bottom we could be exposing troglobitic species to predators that they normally would be protected from. These species according to Florida Natural Areas Inventory are considered imperiled,so loss of these species is of concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jont
Yes, I used the word most because for the other line drills I set up a mock visual jump and have them just come to the end of a line and begin their lost line drill from there. In this scenario they are on a line and not moved at all. I have them swap masks about 30' before the end of that line. That being said and before anyone jumps in and tries to accuse me of violating any of the guidelines, we do maintain a continuous guideline to open water.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jont
This doesn't mean the cave has to be damaged. There are areas of caves where drills should absolutely not be done, ever. I choose where I conduct drills very carefully so that there is minimal to no damage to the cave. As much as I'd like to say there is never any damage I won't say that because the only way to guarantee that is by not being there at all.Quote:
3) Now I KNOW that you have a few students that really want to go the extra mile and I KNOW that you have put them through a lot more then that because you wanted to prepare them for the type of diving you were sure they were going to do as soon as they were handed a card and that says great things about you and every other instructor out there that steps up like I know you ............BUT, it also puts you in a very unfair position because you, me and every other person I know can't and never will be able to read minds........and because you're a good guy you will feel bad when someone kills themselves even when they break the rules.
I know lots of cave instructors spin and wrap, etc. I just don't see how doing that is realistic. I can't remember ever having a tornado come through the cave and spinning me around.Quote:
4) How realistic is the spinning, wrapping up, bla, bla, bla well I've had 3 cave instructors in my life and 2 of them did just that, most recently I did exactly that with the added hardship of not wearing a mask so I had to deal with the water in the nose issue and after a nose job and "other" things, lets just say that it's a real issue.
Kelly provides an excellent answer to your question. I just saw cat fish 1500' back in a cave I was diving today. Stirring up the troglobitic species exposes them to those catfish.Quote:
5) and I think it makes better business sense as well but that would also depend on cooperation between agencies and I'd need more time to explain it.
I still can't get an answer to the following question:
The other factor is how do these superficial, dings and gouges harm the cave environment to the point that there's an environmental concern that could effect the general public? Is water quality affected by this? Are species of plants or animals being driven to extinction? Could this result in an energy shortage? food shortage?
Thank you, when I have more time over the weekend I'll start a new thread and discuss why cooperation is better for everyone including the business of diving.
Thats a very good answer however there simply isn't enough data out there to PROVE OR DISPROVE the long term consequences of these disturbances in the cave environment but thats actually a good thing because its that lack of knowledge and research that the cave diving community can use to not only justify the need for cave diving but the necessity in terms of benefit to the general public.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Actually I have close to 7 year of very empirical data proving a lot of trends at Peacock,which from this data a lot of hypothesis can be formed. Some of the data could present positive arguments on behalf of recreational cave diving and impact on species,and some not so positive. Does "lack of knowledge and research...justify the need for cave diving",yes it does,but can be a stretch when 99% of cave diving is for recreation. We as a group need to have strong concern for cave consevation,which includes species that live in the caves as well, because trust me there are quite a few researchers/scientists that ask these questions which challange recreational access. Science/preservation and recreation can exist together,but our awareness of the environment is critical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jont
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Thank you
Thank you for the questions/remarks. Discussing these topics helps with awareness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jont
My pleasure Dude.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Knowing what you know about these types of impacts to the cave and it's inhabitants, how can you enjoy any dives?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Every dive you make, disrupts nature in some way. Correct?
You know, one of the things I think would help would be if all agencies required a precursor class to cave training, something along the lines of GUE's Fundamentals class, or UTD's Overhead Protocols. There is no reason why good buoyancy and trim, and tolerance for task loading, needs to be learned in a cave, and it's hard on the cave. When I did my Cave 1 class in MX, the only time any of us touched the bottom (or anything else) was during the lost line drill, which is done, as Rob describes, in an area of deep silt and broken limestone, with no formations. (And my instructor took us about 15 feet off the line, let us STUDY where we were and what the passage was like and where the line was, and then put us in the dark. It took me 14 minutes to find the line, and my buddy took 12; it was profoundly instructive, simply because we WEREN'T spun around or otherwise disoriented. Even with plenty of warning and time to prepare, we found it hard -- THAT's how you impress students with how dangerous it is to lose the line.) Even in my Cave 2, where we didn't do very well (and yes, I didn't pass it) the only time we touched the bottom was when I kicked off my boot and fin in Twin and put my hands in the silt because I totally lost my balance. I felt awful about that damage, and tried to find someone to fix it for me. I was very pleased, the next time I dove there, to see that the marks were gone.
At any rate, requiring cave-quality buoyancy BEFORE taking people into caves would help a lot, I think.
I couldn't disagree more with your training preferences, in a controlled environment we all excel but handling what you don't know is coming is the difference between someone who dives good and a good diver, but thats another argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by LCF
My question, and this is a serious one, is as follows:
So touching silt (loose) and limestone while training is OK? As stated before I'm a newbie
Obviously I would never touch a "formation" if it was clay or anything else, heck even mud slopes look very cool underwater.
Maybe I read to much into disturbing the cave, so guidance is appreciated.
I agree Lynn, and I think it would help the whole conservation cause, as students would be having less contact in the cave from day one. Psychologically there is an element of subornment in the normal NACD and NSS-CDS training methods as with limited skills at the start, unintended contact and damage is almost unavoidable and the student more or less accepts that contact and damage as "normal", or at least learns to come up with excuses when it does happen - and continues that process after training. I much prefer a cleaner approach where any contact is "bad". Of course, I was raised catholic so guilt comes naturally to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by LCF
I also came to cave diving after 15 years or so of technical wreck diving, so I was solid with buoyancy and trim in doubles and a drysuit and had the propulsion techniques down so I was literally there to learn the cave specifics in my Cavern/Intro class. I was surprised to see the wide range of students in the class, and I was taken aback when one of the students I was doing a lights out/air share exit drill with remarked how solid my buoyancy skills were in the water. I thought everyone should be reasonably proficient with buoyancy and trim before showing up for a cavern class, but that was not the case.
I prefer the much cleaner look of a pristine floor, even if it's just silt. If the cave has heavy traffic, even if each diver only leaves one small mark on each dive, over not to much time, the floor starts looking like a construction site or maybe a muddy playground. That's not really what I want to see in a cave.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jont
There are caves with sand, gravel, etc bottoms that are pretty durable and won't leave traces of contact. There are also cave floors where high flow has swept the bottom clean of silt and the left the limestone floor itself rather featureless. There will be more impact there, but they are still pretty durable and good locations for training, stage bottle placement, etc.
There are also caves where the flow is such that pulling and gliding may cause less damage than trying to swim in the flow, especially in tighter areas where swimming would result in less controlled and less precise fin contact. In that case, touching the cave to pull yourself forward may be preferable, particularly, if there are already spots well worn from previous contact.
Something I think many people don't even think about is the impact of their bubbles on sensitive structures in the cave. With delicate structures on the ceiling, you'll want to stay on the line so that you are not spreading the damage out away from the line. And in some caves, Upstream Cow is a good example, excursions off the line carry the risk of contact with the low ceiling, creating an extremely visible white mark on what is otherwise very dark chocolate brown to black walls and ceilings. If you ever dive there, you'll see marks 10-20 feet off the line, and that damage was 100% preventable as there was no need to go there in the first place, let alone going there with sub standard skills and contacting the cave.
What ever you are doing and where ever you are going, you should be using the approach that results in minimum contact and damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster
Thats exactly what i was taught and it makes sense
Not a fan of bubbles they're annoying
thanks
I don't think Lynne was stating she was in a controlled environment throughout all of her training. I'm pretty sure her instructor had plenty of announced drills. However, some drills need to be announced. Also, some skills, like the lost line drill, have more of an impact on the student when preparation is provided. I do something very similar to what Lynne described. Before the dive I tell my students exactly where the drill will be done. We discuss where the line is and I even give them advice on how to find the line. Many of them still don't find it and the ones that do usually take close to 10 minutes or longer to find it. This is with all the preparation. If you have so much trouble finding the line with that much preparation the lesson is clear. Don't lose the line!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jont
Anyway, a general statement of "touching silt (loose) and limestone while training is OK" is not a very good statement at all. To that I have to answer no. However, there are areas of various caves where touching silt and/or limestone will have very minimal effect on the environment. Those are the areas that should be used for training. Even when I have students doing the lost line drill there are areas surround the location I choose to do this drill that I don't want them to touch. If they feel me pulling back on their legs they know that means turn around and start over from the tie off. Training is necessary but it doesn't need to involve damage to the caves.
Hi Rob,Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
1) It wasn't a statement, it was a question.
2) Nowhere did she say she was in a controlled environment throughout her training and nowhere did I make such an inference, please re-read slowly, I make this mistake a lot as well.
3) At this point we're just splitting hairs.
4) I still disagree, preparing students for the worst case makes for better divers and gives them the "religion" they need to make the best decisions possible when it comes to planning
My original teachings and conclusions were spot on, the question was raised because I noticed a slight inconsistency that could be very well have been attributed to verbiage.
Common sense and reason needs to govern all, obviously instructors, photographers, videographers when conducting drills, shooting videos, technique demo's etc. should be in a "high use" cave and be at a location within that cave that minimizes impact even if it has no value other then esthetic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LCF
Simply having solid instructors who don't just hand out cave cards would solve the problem.
You are addressing the symptom by adding a "new" class. If the instructors are crap, adding a class just pads the wallet and does nothing for the quality of student.
Bingo!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
Bingo X 2Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
Bingo bango x3
Exactly!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
1) I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Yes, I stated it's not a very good statement, meaning you can't just answer yes to it. I went on to answer your question. Maybe you should re-read my response slowly... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jont
2) It seemed that this was implied in your statement.
I think all y'all are missing the point. Lynn's observation on the problem of not having a lead in class for buoyancy, trim, configuration, etc prior to cavern is separate from having instructors who hand out c cards.
There's room for both, and even if all instructors maintained adequate standards and failed all students who did not meet the standards we'd still have issues.
1) If a diver lacked the buoyancy and trim skills to enter a cavern and dive without beating it up, then conceivably the entire "cavern" class they are supposed to be taking - and will in fact fail - will happen in the basin. With that approach you are in effect creating a de facto lead in class that the person has to pass before taking an actual cavern class.
2) The problem with doing it that way is that the instructor now has an impossible job managing expectations. Student dissatisfaction will be high as they won't feel they got what they paid for and the odds are the instructor will lose the student to someone else. Which is why instructors are extremely unlikely to keep even a roto tiller out of a cavern and the best we can hope for is that they keep it somewhere like the Ginnie ball room where damage is unlikely and would go un noticed.
It makes a lot more sense to just approach it head on with a lead in class. Unlike Fundies, it does not have to be mandatory but rather could be something that a prospective cave student could knock out with demonstrated ability.
Interesting thread that has spun into a great conversation.
The things you see in OG are horrible representing the divers worst judgement.
The last time I dove there I was saddened by the lack of respect for the cave.
Even before beginning on my cave training I clearly understood RESPECT FOR PROPERTY AND ENVIRONMENT.
Does the current cave instructional materials not cover this?
Are instructors not reinforcing this ideal?
The three Tech. instructors I have trained with ALL made it very clear failure to maintain proper trim and buoyancy was a prerequisite for training.
Making contact with fragile cave formations is not acceptable!
Training areas chosen by instructors are chosen for a reason for the safety of the student and the cave.
If you are a prospective student it is YOUR responsibility to have the solid foundation of proper buoyancy / trim.
If you are the instructor is is YOUR responsibility to evaluate your prospective student and either agree to train them or send them back for skill mastery.
Do students make mistakes? That is what training is for.
Unfortunately to the cave, damage is damage regardless of the motive.
What has become the normal training caves bear the scars of many careless or accidental contacts.
It is easy to understand why PRIVATE caves are fiercely guarded.
While we are trapped up hear in Yankee land we train in a local quarry the things witnessed this season have brought me to a painful conclusion that some divers are just idiots.
You can not reason with them they are destroyers of all environments that many of us treasure even the crappy quarry ones!
We are accused of being intolerant AXXHOLES but when we try to be nice we are ignored.
Jont this is not a personal attach I have never dove with you but I will ask you to be very honest with yourself when accessing your buoyancy and trim.
I can promise you that even if you have perfect skills your instructor will find a nick in your armor.
That is what he or she is supposed to do.
My plea not to just you but all divers RESPECT whatever environment you are diving in.
JCG
Then maybe the student wasn't ready for the cavern class....Quote:
Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster
A good instructor will be able to tell if a student sucks at buoyancy on the first dive of the cavern class. Back on my first dive in Orange Grove with my cave instructor for the cavern class, he told one student to go home and come back when they were more experienced and proficient with their buoyancy.
How many instructors today would do that?
Most OW organizations ALREADY have a "Peak Buoyancy" class or equivalent where a student is taught how to have proper buoyancy and trim. If the student has issues with their skills they can take this class from a good quality instructor and be more prepared for Cavern.
I'd like to think that all of them would, but I guess that's not necessarily the case. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
Both of my cave instructors (Michael O'Leary, Intro - Full, 2005 & 2006, and Paul Heinerth, sidemount, 2010) made it clear up front that good bouyancy and trim were non-negotiable prerequisites to start classes. I have on two occasions seen Michael O'Leary give cavern students the choice of either getting a refund or coming back when their skills were adequate to continue training. I'd guess that the majority of cave instructors have similar standards, but there are always outliers in any group.
I think this comes down to what the purpose of the course is. Are you there for certification, or for training? When Giselle and I took Cavern, we were by no means ready for Cavern certification. We were, however, both ready for cavern training. Our instructor planned class in "OW caverns". Places where we should not leave any noticeable damage, mainly because they have OW diver rolling around on the floor all day. These places are sacrificial. The owners have decided damage to the cave is worth $$ they charge for entry. We learned a lot those first 4 days. For me Cavern/Intro were a learning experience, while Apprentice was about demonstrating competency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
I think the only time a diver should be turned away from a Cavern class is if the group is a horrible mismatch of diver's skill. Otherwise the instructor should spend that time teaching the skills that need to be taught, regardless of whether it will end with certification.
Attachment 7392Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenwood_60
I don't think it's possible to "know" what you need to learn prior to Cavern course. My first instructor made sure that I knew that perfect buoyancy and trim were required prior to Cavern course. And I "thought" that my skills were up to par. And they were, by OW standards.
What I learned MOST from my cavern course (see "unknowing-incompetent") was how bad a klutz, how LACKING my skills were, and what I needed to practice and improve on before continuing in my training. No books, videos, pool lessons, open water diving can prepare you for cave training. That's what the Cavern Course is (in my opinion). It's your wake up call. The job of a Cavern Course is to demonstrate to you what skills WILL BE required of you, where you stand, and how much you need to work on.
Cavern course is designed to take an Unknowing-Incompetent diver, and teach him to be a Knowing-Incompetent diver. If the instructor can help improve the student's skills- all the much better. But the primary need is to educate the student into how much different the overhead environment is to OW.
Just my $.02
Isn't is already in "their" mission statement(s)?Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
I encountered a peak performance class during a surface interval last summer at a local quarry and it was notable for the fact that it was the first and only time I've encountered such a class that actually taught things in a manner that was cavern/cave oriented. After he was done with the lecture I commented on that to the instructor and commended him for teaching to that level. The reality of what is taught in a peak performance buoyancy class is often far less than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
That's why it might make sense for NACD, NSS-CDS etc to consider a similar course, but taught by cavern and cave instructors with that focus in mind.
I think this was more or less what Jason describes as what he needed when he got into diving and the instructor accommodated by using OW caverns, such as the Ginnie ball room. But the reality here, as alluded to in Jason's narrative is that it is a short step from viewing the ballroom as a sacrificial cavern to regarding caverns at JB, the devil's ear, P1, Orange Grove, etc as being sacrificial as well.
It makes more sense to have a dedicated course that teaches those skills - but outside any cavern, reinforcing the concept that they are non-negotiable pre-requsites for starting a cavern class.
Hey, Thanks dude, I could care less if it was a personal attack, attack away, insult away.....I really don't care.Quote:
Originally Posted by JCGoodwin
First off I am far from perfect in fact my single biggest issue was/is buoyancy control, I've been diving since I was 8 so that 30 years of deep colds water wreck/lobster/monk fish diving (solo) during the most impressionable times of my life, so I've developed some bad habits to say the least. The reason why I ask is because I dont want to leave anything to chance, if I see something that I perceive to be a discrepancy I ask the question because whats obvious to you with the collective experience that exists on this board isnt to me.
Respect is why I asked, if I didn't have any I wouldn't be here.
Com'on Larry! We got the point but what kind of thread would this be if we didn't stray from the point?? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster
The majority of the first dive in my cavern classes are in the basin where I can evaluate skills and my students can learn the skills. If buoyancy and trim are good enough we take a peek in the cavern at the end of the dive. I believe most cave instructors do something similar. Unfortunately though there are instructors who drop in the water and head right into the cavern at the beginning of dive 1.