Anyone dove P3 lately??
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Anyone dove P3 lately??
I heard as of this past weekend it's anywhere from 30-50' of viz....back to the regulations discussion....what's the gig on syphons at Intro?
No limitations on syphons that I know of.
I was under the impression that you could not dive siphons till you get "full cave".
I have sited the limitations as stated in the NSS-CDS and NACD workbooks before. I don't have my books with me right now to do it again. There are no limitations prohibiting diving syphons. Different agencies may vary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulmal
If you can site something otherwise I would be interested to learn from it.
As an example, downstream cow is open to cavern through full.
I can't cite it as I don't have the workbooks but I remember some discussion/confusion around this. This is why I wanted to clear it up.
Expect the sand slide "restriction" at about 850' on the main line to be more of a restriction...squeezing through on the right and
up.
Back home now. No limitations against syphons for cavern through cave in either NSS/CDS rev 04/06 or NACD 2009 edition.
I could site all of the limitations but there aren't any about syphons, so why bother.
The books do mention that there are additional dangers associated with syphons, and that normal gas planning rules may not be conservitive enough. I agree.
no need to cite them if there's nothing - it clears it up. Thanks for checking.
Brandon, I will let you know as I'm tentatively going up north this weekend and have P3 tentatively scheduled for Friday.
Prior to Full Cave I had NAUI Cave 1. I specifically remember from training that we were not allowed to dive siphons. I can't speak for the NSS or CDS but I imagine the training standards would be similar. I dove P3 last week to Hendly's Castle with Paul for my last dive. The passage was very milky and the silt will poof up if you look at it wrong. In a few places we had to remove the main line from the silt because it was buried. If you are only intro and don't have good buoyancy control I would highly suggest doing a different dive.
Or the NSS-CDS for that matter...
Tracy I expect you have your facts a bit confused. Hendley's Castle is 185 feet deep and I don't think that is where you and Paul went to complete a full cave class that has a depth limitation of130 feet.Quote:
Originally Posted by TracyN
We didn't go all the way down. Just went a little way down the jump. Stayed within the limits. No worries. :-)
Thanks for clarifying. I never doubted Paul stayed within the limits but your post made it sound as if he had taken you to 185....Thats where Hendley's Castle is. No one ever gets confused over these internet posts.:roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by TracyN
Expect zero vis going though sand slide if you are carrying stages. The line is also unreachable.
LOL! I understand. I guess I should have stated it was the Hendly's Castle jump. :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt
Now that sounds like fun ...Quote:
Originally Posted by derek
Do you take your stages past the sand slide? I seem to remember that is where I always dropped mine. Maybe right past the slide.Quote:
Originally Posted by derek
Tracy, as I mentioned in a previous post in this thread neither the NSS-CDS nor the NACD have any limitations on diving syphons at any level. A lot of people imagine they do, or have the impression they do, but they don't, at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by TracyN
You specifically remember from your NAUI cave 1 training that you were not allowed to dive syphons. I didn't do NAUI cave. I bet it was a good class as I have enjoyed several other NAUI classes. Could you find a reference in your course materials for the restriction on diving syphons. I am seriously curious and all to often it seems what people recall about the limitations is incorrect.
Did I mention downsream cow is a syphon? (sorry lol)
We've always left them at the large rock about 70' short of the Hendly's jump.Quote:
Originally Posted by curtschu
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The siphon in P3 is normally so slight as to not require any adjustment to the gas plan. We just dive it like any other low flow cave and I would not get too wrapped around the axle in terms of whether or nit it's ok to dive a siphon at Intro when you are talking about P3. It's milky viz even when it's good, the sand slides are low and require good technique and that's more of a challenge at Intro than the very slight siphon you might find.
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Downstream Cow is also a siphon but again it's normally not all that strong and presents no real swimming or gas issues given that it's a slight siphon and the downstream gold line is what 400' long? You can easily plan a healthy reserve there given the shortness of the passage.
Hey. :-) My instructor just taught out of the NACD book however I do remember seeing a slide during the lecture about limitations that siphon diving was not allowed. Unfortunately I don't have access to NAUI materials for reference. I looked throughout the NACD book and the only thing I could find about siphons is that they can require more conservative gas management.Quote:
Originally Posted by hunabku
You are right though downstream Cow is a siphon so it wouldn't make sense to allow cavern and intro divers to dive there but then say that they can't dive siphons.
I draw the line somewhere between P3 and this...
http://jediahsblog.files.wordpress.c...pool.png?w=640
I was in there friday. Conditions just fine. Water level up so we got in at p2. Sidemounted over to upper p3 (cleaning away flood debris as we went) , then down into p3 main. Jumped right at 400' and past a spot that the line was hopelessly lost into sand. Someone prior had graciously left a permanent fix/jump over that section. Nicest dive that week. Lots of cave critters and catfish.
Looks perfectly safe to me, I was doing that as an OW student. LolQuote:
Originally Posted by hunabku
The stage was a travel/deco bottle to cut down on deco after dropping to lower henley. Made the drop at the top of henley.Quote:
Originally Posted by curtschu
Ive never been to Henleys but thought you could swim over it without dropping down to trimix depths.
Yes, you can.Quote:
Originally Posted by stairman
When you say swim over it?? Once you go through the bedding plane and enter the big room I think you should have He. I've gone to the bottom a couple of times the first one on air. I can honestly say that was crazy but hey it was the 90s all the kids were doing it. First time on trimix was a totally different experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by stairman
Was it orange line? If so that is the line that Paul put in. Initially I thought he was doing it because the line was broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by tj
The bedding plane is at 135' or so and that's below the 130' END that even the most liberal agencies recommend for cave diving. Oddly enough, we went there once in an AN/DP class - basically through the bedding plane and turning the dive at 145' at the top of Hendlys. It was a very simple dive plan - drop down, go through the sand slide/bedding plane, follow the line to a depth of 145' and turn the dive.Quote:
Originally Posted by curtschu
We have been back to the lower part of the room and poked into the passage below Hendlys, but we've done that on trimix. I would not recommend anyone go to top of Hendlys, let alone the bottom, without trimix. Besides, on trimix you really see the whole expanse of the room there, where you are otherwise so perceptually narrowed that all you really see is the line and what's immediately around it. I'd argue if any one has not gone there on trimix, they have never really been there.
"Swim over" is a little confusing here. You can "Swim over" Henley's and only be around 60' deep. If you follow the jump line down, you will hit 130' before the bedding plane, but you are still "over" Henley's. Now if you do go through the bedding plane to the top of the room, then you should be on trimix.
I hope this answers stairman's question.
Yep, that's the one...Quote:
Originally Posted by TracyN
You can. The jump to Hendley's Castle is a jump downward, but the main line runs through the top of the room. So you could swim through that room and stay up on the main line, well out of trimix depths, if you wanted to.Quote:
Originally Posted by stairman
Brian
Ah So that makes more sense I thought he meant swimming around the top after the bedding plane. if memory is correct we did it last on 21/30 with a stage on 32 breath the stage in and drop after the sand slide. Drop down then return Breath the stage out and your deco is also nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
That's how we do it as well - although with a bit less O2 to keep the PO2 under 1.4 and a bit more He to keep the END under 100' at 190'. 18/35 works fine. If I recall, we normally have only around 5 minutes on O2 after the swim back to the cavern.Quote:
Originally Posted by curtschu
Unit 2, slide 5 - "Cave 1 - Diving Policies" - last bullet point "No diving in a siphon."Quote:
Originally Posted by hunabku
Unit 3, slide 12, from the IG - "You are not learning to dive in siphons." [bolded in the IG]
(other prohibitions at the Cave 1 level are covered in Unit 3, slide 13: Blue Holes, Sumps, Underground Lakes, Ice Caves)
Best regards -
gkn
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Gerard K. Newman | NAUI #48937 | Kona, HI