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You are at your favorite dive site,and really it is only appropriate for only cave diving since there isn't really a basin for OW diver. An open water diver approaches wearing a BC with snorkel,and nothing to indicate the possibility of being cavern certified,and they ask you,"how do you find the cave". What will you do?
ask what kind of car he drives and where the keys are?
this is a terrible situation and one I've certainly faced already - almost. I give general directions loaded with warnings/cautions. I'd rather he/she know about the general idea and have a chance of getting out rather than potentially go in there, silt the hell out of it searching, and the reality of it is look at the scenario you've created doesn't allow for any realistic options. If there isn't much of an OW basin, how difficult would it be, if I am there anyway and an OW diver finds it, that it's going to be a terribly difficult entrance to find? No OW basin suggests relatively small, etc. I'm there. OW diver there. Anything that popular is not one of the secret sites that requires a handshake and moonshine donation and a sacrifice of a witch to get into. However, the poll questions make it impossible to make this argument. They way they're worded....no way I'll say here's a map have fun without warnings. No way I won't tell him/her that it's not an OW site. So I'm going to answer "no" above but the reality is different than the poll.
He/she will find it without my help. If I get the chance to provide some cautionary guidance, I will. It's my obligation to.
Besides that, as been said 8,438,773 times, you can't fix stupid.
I would tell them a story about an OW diver who I met at Wacissa; a day after he died.
I intentionally left this as a yes/no question,with no maybe,because how we handle a situtation can be ther difference between a fatal accident and not. There are a lot of things we will do to defuse the situtation,but ultimately we have to tell the person yes or no.Quote:
Originally Posted by whodunit68
understood but again, if this is a real situation, if the guy/gal shows up with gear, etc, do you really think he or she will listen to my no? I stand behind my no but I full well know the reality is in my opinion, in most cases, it won't change the result. Thanks for the clarification.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
I voted No
Then explain the best I can why and desperately try to scare the #### out of them.
Like. Ooops this isn't Facebook, sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn
I am not so sure I agree with that. Sometimes it is better to let them think you are going to tell them what they want to hear. If you refuse, you loose their attention, and nothing you say after that will do any good. It might be better to say, "Sure, I will tell you, but here are all the problems you will face...."Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Years ago I got a call from someone wanting to buy a reel. I asked if he was trained, and he got all huffy. I told him I would give him a reel free, if he would show me where he planned to use it. I took him about 100' into Craig's Mill (in north Alabama), and he turned the dive, and gave me the reel back. I got a virgin cave out of the deal :-D
In America where it is Mom,apple pie,and litigation,this is an area of concern. If I told someone that wasn't trained how to find a cave diving site when they were obviously open water divers,would I be held to contribuatory negilgence. Considering there was a successful suit of one dive buddy suing another for actions on a dive,what makes us think this isn't far fetched. Cave diving historically is more open about publicizing dive sites than dry cavers,and dry cavers have some very good reasons with much success.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Is it good that we make things easy for anybody to find how to access these systems ie directions,gps numbers etc? Land owners may argue no.
I tell them to swim around until they see the warning sign with the picture of the grim reaper with all the dead bodies in open water gear scattered around the bottom. Then I ask them to leave a note on their car designating their next of kin. Because we'll need to know who to contact.
Here's what I did a few weeks back. I think the training agencies need to include something like this in every class. Do any of the old guys here remember the Driver's Ed. movies we had to watch in high school showing all the gore and mayhem from wrecks. They scared the heck outta me. Maybe it would work for divers too.
http://www.floridadiveconnection.com...ery-new-diver/
The problem is that many instructors (and agencies) consider the chances of their students going into a cave to be remote, since there are no caves in their area. As we know, that isn't totally true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Real1628
Good thread to start, Kelly, especially with the recent post by the father of the family involved in the Twin Cave incident on Merritt's Mill Pond. I won't tell anyone who is not cave trained how to access any cavern or caves. There are other means by which they might obtain that info, but it won't be from me. The "cave community" may not be able to keep them out, but we certainly shouldn't do anything to assist them in entering. No directions, no descriptions. Warning the untrained is a good thing to do, irregardless of how they respond. Simply, "You are not trained for this kind diving, other untrained divers like you have died by just swimming in, I urge you not to do it. Get trained first."
Not only that, but there is a trend toward taking all the scariness away and making the O/W class a warm fuzzy experience so the ranks can continue to expand and the $s will keep coming in. I'm sure we've all seen the signs that say "Remember when SCUBA diving was dangerous and sex was safe?" We have to focus on quality training and building experience. I shook a divemaster's hand earlier this year when he was explaining why he's been certified for years and just became a divemaster. He said,"I wanted to learn how to dive before I became a Divemaster." We need more of that attitude in diving.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
So what you are pushing for is a way to shut down the sites/information on caves and their locations because of possible liability that you are making up on your own?
Sounds like a path to a "closed database" of information to me.
Figured there was a hidden agenda to the poll. Good to see you come clean early.
I'm afraid the truth is the biggest source of information on where the caves are, is from places like this on the internet. What do you do about that? I don't have an answer.
Well this is interesting as this very thing happened to me when I was diving at OG last year.
Two OW divers with hand held flash lights wanted me to guide them to the cave and were very polite.
I asked them if they had any formal cave training and they said no it was not required to dive here.
They looked at me and said I must know what I was doing because I had all the gear.
At this point I went from playing along to are you guys serious?
They were and did not like it when I told them it was to be OW in pool only!
My wife and daughter were swimming in the pool checking it out so I sort of just hid in the shadow above the cave off to the right.
What they did next horrified me!
They swam down to look for my line to follow it into the cave.
They looked for about 5 min. and swam into the cave no line or reel of any kind!
Hanging there wondering just what to do I decided that I would wait 15 min and if they had not returned run a line in to the mainline and look for them.
I had started to tie in when I saw a light flicker from well into the cave so I returned to my perch about the entrance.
They made it out and before they could turn to look for me I slipped in the dark tied in and headed to the sign to investigate.
No real damage or any more than normal I should say so I exited.
My wife and daughter said the two were very angry with me for not taking them on a dive.
Are YOU KIDDING ME!
I looked around but they must have took off.
I reported it to the ranger and to CE but it is no wonder one of these has not been a fatality.
You can not protect people from themselves!
They, WE are our own worst enemies!
When rules and signs won't deter them then possibly Darwin will remove them from the gene pool.
The cave community does a awesome job of making others aware of the danger but in the end it is up to the individual to choose.
JCG
No agenda at all because I am too superficial of a thinker for that. But,think about what has worked for the dry caving community. I am not saying it would work for us,but it is something worth discussing. In reality I have been in the position of the poll scenario,and my choice then as it is now is that I am unwilling to share information unless your training (and experience) will allow you to perform the dive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
Darwin works...
Safe diving,
Rich
Not everthing and everybody has a hidden agenda. I would no more inform and open water diver were a cave location was than I would cut off my own arm. Not all information is meant for everyone. That does not mean that there's a conspiracy to withhold information to everyone. Think of it this way, some information is on a need to know basis, and OW divers don't need to know cave locations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
BS! Everything is a conspiracy and has a hidden agenda. Well at least I have two Captains who honestly no that. I do agree with you though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_Lester
Yes,
But collectively as a group, we are informing them where the caves are. There are a couple of web site that I use to find the caves, Yes I am full cave > 100 dives past, but I consider myself a newbie and these sites do help me find out info before I go to a new place.
I'll bet we have more OW divers and wanna be divers reading this website than you might imagine.
Where does an individuals responsibility become paramount, that is at what point is someone responsible for their own stupid actions, instead of somehow or another the blame get placed elsewhere?
If you smoke and get cancer, it's your fault, not the tobacco companies, and if you drink and drive, Budweiser didn't make you do it, and if you go into a cave untrained and don't come out, it isn't the guy's who sold you the wet suits fault either, or the local at the gas station who gave you directions etc. It's not even the Governments fault for not dynamiting all the caves.
Some of our web sites have been used by artifacters to find sites.Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
for the most part, I agree with you. We, the people, have lost a sense of personal responsibility because the powers that be have created a society of blame someone else no matter what. However, there's a difference. Education budgets in cave communities are just a slight bit lower than tobacco companies and those put forth by gov agencies, etc. Reaching the masses becomes much more difficult. Not everyone actually realizes the lure of a cave could equal almost certain death if not trained. EVERYONE knows smoking is bad. Drugs will do damage and affect one's ability to think straight. It is EASY to not realize that fact when out swimming around and you see a dark hole. Many people have a sense of adventure. These sense people may not recognize the dangers lurking inside of the cave (and may not have watched the documentary about the cave monster). This is a greater challenge. Web sites are good. I think they could be sprinkled with a few warnings themselves. Otherwise, I'm glad to have them as a reference.Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
I believe in personal accountability, if I know what I'm up against. (yes of course I believe I should find out but I also am a realist and realize the world works in real time and doesn't wait for me to do my research). If I see a cave and don't know how easily I could die in it, I'm going to poke my head in.
I find it hard to believe that anyone that is open water certified, hasn't been told not to go into caves / wrecks or any overhead. You might be right, I was originally YMCA certified back in the late 70's, but I did get my kids certified in the last couple of years and I know darn well that was taught to them.
Remember the McDonald's hot coffee lawsuit? I think more and more we as a society are shirking personal responsibility.
Can someone explain why if my house burns down no-one thinks the Government should help, but let the whole neighborhood burn down and FEMA had better show up?
No if your stupid enough to walk in front of a bus, or go into an overhead environment without proper equipment and training, you deserve what you get. This almost "accident" in twin, anybody know if they were diving with multiple / independent gas supplies, or at least an H valve? I doubt it, how many think a lawsuit would have been in order if they had had a first stage failure and one of them drowned because of it? I bet the manufacturer didn't warn them not to use that equipment in an overhead environment, how were they supposed to know?
Nobody would feel sorry for some idiot who got themselves killed by trying to fly an airplane without training, why is this any different?
The problem is that cave access can (and has been) restricted when someone dies, a family loses a loved one, and people have to risk their lives to recover the body. It effects much more than just the person who drowns.Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
The drunk driver effects others. Even Suicides often effect others, and yet we can still buy alcohol and automobiles?Quote:
Originally Posted by PfcAJ
I'd go as far to say that you don't have to have a death or even an injury to affect cave access.
By artifacters, you mean thieves? Or legitimate? I assume you mean thieves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
I don't like how drunk driving is handled in America, but I also don't think that people deserve to die if they do it. Off topic, but if cops were serious about curtailing drunk driving accidents, they'd post up right outside of bars and simply test people before they got in the car.
How would you handle DUI in the US? I know how it's done in Germany, or at least how it was done almost 20 years ago. You might get a few at least initially by setting up ambushes at bars, but it wouldn't last and of course the bar owners would raise holy Hell.
In KIlleen Tx you could go through a drive in and get a frozen alcoholic drink that even had a straw in it, there were also "beer Barns" where you could drive through and get alcoholic beverages without having to get out of the car.
Like!Quote:
Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn
(who cares if it isn't Facebook?)
I sat through my daughter's PADI o/w class a few years ago and it was never brought up.Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
Boy, are you dating yourself! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
Did people die in caves before the internet?
Funny, but if you look at the accident statistics, you might notice a recent decline in OW divers dying in caves, and a rise in internet usage. Maybe the internet is responsible for saving OW divers :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
4th of July weekend 1988, Little River is the site. On July 4th, a very obvious open water diver, pounding down beers all by himself, asks the 4 of us cave divers essentially that question. we tell him the things we should, cave diving can be very dangerous, get the proper training and equipment, etc. we do our dive, he is still there when we come up, but won't talk to us again.
early morning, July 5th, the open water diver's car is still on site, but he is no where to be seen. this is long before the days of concrete, steps, facilities. probably sleeping it off in his car, we figure. we shrug our heads and head out to do our dive. this, by the way, was in the days of Little River flowing as a first magnitude spring does. a lot of pulling and gliding to be done. anyway, down the chimney we go, level out and go a few hundred feet, and what do we find? Our open water diver of the day before, dead as a doornail, mask off, reg out of his mouth, pushed by the flow into a pocket off to the side. he is equipped as if he was rolling off the boat in Pennekamp Park for a nice 30 ft reef dive, with a single 80 cu ft tank (which was empty) and a small light. he did have a snorkel though.
. My buddy, Steve Irving (original WKKP) and I had been through cave rescue/recovery training, so we elected to perform the recovery. we brought him up to just below the entrance, and stowed him in that small side passage off to the right. we surfaced and alerted the authorities. when the coroner arrived with an ambulance, we completed the recovery to the surface.
I thought long and hard after this incident as to whether we were forceful enough in our attempt to educate and dissuade this individual from making a dive there. i don't think we could have done more, but i still felt very bad about it. i believe this guy entered the cave sometime late afternoon on the 4th after he had been drinking, and quickly ran out of gas trying to get into the system. some speculated it may have been "suicide by cave", but we never did find out anymore definitive info.
the point is, of course, being in any way helpful to this type of diver is criminal and we should all do what we can to when approached to stop someone from making a fatal mistake.
At Ginnie today I got the chance to enjoy a beautiful dive. While I was dropping my tanks near the steps a group of open water divers were there. I overheard them say "I tried to follow them in, but they started getting all mad. I don't know what their problem was". I just shook my head. I was in shock. I watched out for them on my dive so they did not try to follow me in. I wanted to say something to them but did not want any problems with my vehicle when I left or my tanks while I geared up. So if the cave team happen to be on this board, thank you. Your actions might have saved a life.
However, I did tel some drunk snorkelers to stay out of the cave. They wanted to was down in to the eye. They actually listened.
I try not to belittle them, bring up that the only difference between you and them is the training and equipment. Suggest to them that what do they think is the probability of success of someone that had no training at all completing an open water dive without hurting themselves? Suggest to them a name of an instructor who can help? How many people rode a bicycle successfully the first time? What if falling off meant death? Remind them that getting lost = death, equipment failure without a backup = death, they only have one light, light failure = death, etc.
I don't know about you guy's, but I was that open water diver diving the "springs" and that open hole called to me, admittedly I "pushed the limits" before I got formal training, and to be truthful, who trained the pioneers? I am not abdicating self training, but have we become so mainstream that we deny the call of the unknown?
Ain't nothing wrong with mentoring a wanna be, some you can't , there is always the drunk, "hold my beer, watch this" Redneck, but most aren't.
Both.Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
Originally Posted by a64pilot
In KIlleen Tx you could go through a drive in and get a frozen alcoholic drink that even had a straw in it, there were also "beer Barns" where you could drive through and get alcoholic beverages without having to get out of the car.
Originally Posted by Jax
Boy, are you dating yourself!
Not really, I was just in Kileen early this week...don't know about the "frozen alcoholic drink with a straw in it", but I saw several drive-through liquor stores in Texas. Just saw one in Iowa today as well
You may be right, admittedly it was a cave diver that taught my kids open water, and I think location plays into it as well, when there are river caves within a few miles of the shop it comes to mind more easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by gasdiver
IF avoidance of overhead environments isn't a teaching point in ALL open water certifications, then our cave diving agencies ought to lobby for that. How hard could it be to teach stay out of caves, and possibly "A deceptively easy way to die" be a required part of the program?
Thanks for saying this. I think it is something we need to work on and have made a personal commitment to do it. One thing I've noticed over the years is that the diving community has actually done a pretty good job of warning new divers that there is danger in overhead environments. We have failed by not hammering home exactly what the dangers are. Just saying stay out of the caves or don't go inside the shipwreck isn't enough. We have to get specific as to why and how the dangers occur. I think there are several reasons we haven't done that, aside from a little "I'm better than you." arrogance. You don't want to impart too much knowledge for fear it will pass for training in the new diver's mind. The trick is to give them enough info to scare the heck out of them but not enough to allow "self training." That video is great and I'd like to see it updated. The message is almost perfect and it really hits home. Maybe with a new modern version written and narrated as well as the old one we could lobby the training agencies to make it a requirement. Anybody want to help?Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
This would make for a very interesting application of protection motivation theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protect...ivation_Theory) from the social psychology literature. Normally the model is applied in health risk contexts but a recreational risk approach related to introductory diving would be interesting...cave risk is only one of many risks an intro open water diver faces and looking at media based interventions to reduce undesired (maladaptive) behaviors, eg. entering overhead would be useful. It would be fun to develop a set of interventions (easy way to die and alternative versions as treatments) and then test their efficacy in actual training environments. Results would be publishable and it would probably be possible to generalize them to other recreational activities that involve risk. I hope Skip sees this as it is an area he might be interested in as well. Bill
If it will convince the O/W training agencies then I'm all for it. The Psych 101 class I took in college probably doesn't qualify me though LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by wingman
A couple of years ago, while diving at Little River, a father and son team with single 80s, snorkels, pistol grip lights, etc. approached me while I was just getting ready to enter the water. They asked me if I had been in the cave earlier in the day and how the conditions were. I was quite startled to think that they were even considering entering the water. After questioning them about their training and equipment choices, I did my best to persuade them to call off their dive, but it was to no avail. The father stated that he had been diving Little River since the 70s and that it was time to show his son the ropes. I was very concerned about what was unfolding, so I waited inside the cave and waited until they passed me in a whirl of silt and bad trim etc. I then shadowed them until they turned their dive about 10 mins. later at which time I confronted them again and helped escort them from the cave. Once they were at the surface, I again tried to speak to them about the inherent dangers of what they were attempting to do. Unfortunately, at this point, the father felt as though he was being belittled in front of his son and basically told me to drop dead and get out of their space!
When I came up from my dive a hour or so later, the father and son were in the parking lot having a raging argument about whether or not it was safe to dive in the cave. If nothing else, I perhaps was able to start a little "discussion" between the two of them and hopefully caused them to stop and think before engaging in something as stupid as what they were doing. I personally hate to act at the "cave police" but feel that as cave divers it is our responsibility to reach out to people when we see them doing something that is this dangerous. Additionally, I would hate to see some governmental intervention with the caves, as that will probably not end up being to anyone's benefit. Better that a couple of guys go away with their toes stepped on, than a couple of dead bodies in the cave that need to be recovered. The trick is doing it in such a way as to make it a learning experience for them instead of just having them "tune out"!
Not for the modeling part but developing alternative video, brochures, and other media requires just diving knowledge and experience for appropriate content and then there is help with survey questions and agency contact assistance...many tasks to be accomplished...maybe a good basis for a cooperative project between the nss/cds and the nacd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Real1628
I'm in. Where do we start?Quote:
Originally Posted by wingman
I'd love to help anyway I possibly can even if it means modeling. As long as I don't have to be the bikini-clad open water diver who dies.
Why not?!?!?!? LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by JamesK
Because I want to be the bikini-clad open water diver who lives!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Real1628
Wait a minute I think I wrote that wrong. Lol
Are you trying to admit something? LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by JamesK
Nope but I probably look better in a bikini the most the stuff I saw at Ginnie this weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Real1628
Thanks for a good laugh. Maybe there are pics here http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesK
Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
This is probably the route I would go. Of course I wouldn't give directions to the cave, and would inform them that the cave in the scenario that Kelly set-up was an advanced cave site and only the sort of place more seasoned cave divers traveled. I would hand them my husband's business card and suggest to them that a cavern course goes a long way and hopefully they will take that information to heart and consider getting the proper training to enter an overhead environment even if it isn't through my husband. I would probably let them know that while this site wasn't for someone new to cavern or cave diving, there are plenty of other amazing sites to be seen in the local area.
Interesting you would take that approach. Many years ago, when cave training was pretty new, I had a similar incident. There was an obviously OW diver "teaching" his buddy to cavern dive. I told him several reasons that wasn't a good idea, and offered to teach him cavern. He never got back to me, until a year so later, when she showed up as a candidate for cavern instructor at one of my institutes. He worked his way up to cave instructor, and even president of a "training agency".Quote:
Originally Posted by cavewoman
Here in the south we would give very specific directions like: it's over yander aways. If you passed the piggly wiggly you have gone to far.
Years ago at Cow my dive buddy and I were coming out after a dive and encountered a SOLO openwater diver getting in the water with gear that was right out of the seventies. It even looked like it was barely staying together. Hell...the tiny little first stage only had one LP and one HP port. He was manually inflating the BC!!
We tried to explain to him the dangers and how fragile the Cow system is and he just ignored our advise, said he'd been diving the springs and "this" cave for years and that we should mind our own "f"ing business. Some people are going to find a way to kill themselves no matter what good intention people with a higher level of understand have. At that point I was more concerned about what damage he might cause to the cave than to himself. We tried and were rebuked.
I sometimes wonder if we called a ICURR team to be waiting for these yahoos's as (or if) they emerged if the huge number of people with the proper gear and law enforcement waiting to take a report and notify their families, would have any effect.
At some point personal responsibility has to start taking the forefront and people have to stop passing the buck. But as another famous Forrest said "Stupid is as stupid does".
The hardest thing to do is teach someone something they already think they know. I believe is was Socretes that said this, or it could have been Forrest w/ 2R's...it's hard to remember.
Smile and say "if your life is that bad and you are sincerely interested in killing yourself there are better and less painful ways but please don't cave dive around me unless you are properly trained and can prove it"Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
And don't cause others to risk their lives to recover your body from the caves........Quote:
Originally Posted by Jont
Always wondered if you wanted to give "Deceptively Easy Way to Die" more punch,show the recovery divers finding the bodies,and proceeding to strip off dive computers and other dive equipment of value,get in there car and leave. The thought that as an open water diver if should die in the cave and someone will take my gear, unfortunately sends a more repulsive message than going in there,getting lost and drowning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jont
I saw the recovery video of the double fatality at Royal from March 2001. Gruesome.
Very true, there is nothing you can say to change the mind of some....eventually they will remove themselves from the gene pool one way or another. It's unfortunate that they do so in the caves and put others at risk during the recovery process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_Lester
How about adding some interviews of recovery divers telling the stories of what they found. ie: last messages to loved ones on slates, fingers shredded from clawing rocks, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
The 12 year old kid in the parking lot, waiting for their father who is never coming back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Real1628
Nice touch.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
bust out my computer and show them "A deceptively easy way to die"
have them sign a waiver
take them on a guided dive, showing them the wonders of cave diving, and then introduce them to the horror.
make sure they understand both sides of the coin.
turn them on to getting the training and how to do the sport safely.
tell them no, hide information, stalking them on a dive, being aggressive underwater, attempt to stop them from learning about caves and YOU are just as much of a Dumb Ass as they are!
mentoring is just as important as instruction!
talk to some of today's explorers and you will find they had mentors that taught them more then could ever be taught in a cave class.
being negative to OW divers could actually cause them to do exactly what you want to prevent!
Excellent. Be a mentor, reveal wonders, scare the hell out of them, send them off for training. Perfect answer and exactly right way of handling their request. Wish I'd have thought of it. But it is what I will do if the situation arises, which it never has.
skip
meaningless to those 22 year old buddies who are not married, childless, and invulnerable.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
skip
So how do you reveal the wonders with them? Offer to take them in the cave as they are? Tell them you will take them at a later date when they have the right gear.
I believe in mentoring 100%. It's how I got in to cave diving. However my mentors got me in contact with instructors and then after I was trained help me become better.
People have heard me say "Just because I have a few more C-cards than you doesn't make me a better person." An "Inclusive" non arrogant attitude and a little mentoring will go a long way in most cases. The "catch me doing something wrong" attitude is not helpful. I'm guessing everybody here started as openwater divers and somebody helped bring us along.Quote:
Originally Posted by billyf
Absolutely.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesK
this is exactly what Cavern Class is.
standard OW gear
if they have a snorkel it goes back in the car.
only additional gear is a line cutting device (most have a knife), a safety reel/spool (I carry 1 safety and 3 jump spools, so loan one for a dive) and two lights (I carry a primary, secondary and two backups, have about 6 spares in the car, another loaner)
I'm not saying take them on a guided dive to the Hinkle, but giving them a positive encounter with cave divers will be more likely to get them on the right path then telling them NO, Don't or your not allowed to be here.
+1 Positive encounters seem to have a lot better effect than negative ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by billyf
Are you an saying it is ok for an instructor, or are you you saying it's ok for any full cave (or I guess even intro cave) diver, to take OW divers into a cave as long as they've got the right equipment? I'm really not sure how to read that?Quote:
Originally Posted by billyf
This has been going on for a long time in MX (guided cavern tours). Despite much criticism on this board and others that the practice is dubious. However despite one or two fatalities (recent) they actually have a pretty decent safety record considering the quality of the OW divers they are taking on the tours.Quote:
Originally Posted by lv2dive
To be a cavern guide in MX you need to be full cave and be an instructor, just an OW instructor though, not a cave/cavern instructor.
Taking a curious OW diver on a cavern tour, doing a proper job laying the line to the cave sign, being in good trim with the right equipment etc. could be the stimulus for them actually pursuing proper training etc.
Its also a pretty big time investment (and some risk) on the part of the "guide" and there's a chance nothing positive will come of it.
you should stay within the standards of the minimum level of certification of the lowest certified diver.
point them to an overhead / open water site - Blue Grotto, Devils Den, Ginnie's Ballroom
if they're are at a site like P1 talk them into going to OG, then dive with them, show them your skills, tell them stories what it has taken for you to develop them.
talk about your training goals and how you plan to achieve them.
show them dangers like not having a line to the surface can result in death.
an improper fin kick can blow out the viz
you don't have to be in the cave to show them things like this.
a 10 to 20 min talk about the proper gear and the base rules with a 20 min dive concluding with pointing them to a Cave shop or instructor.
no death that day is a positive, at least I consider it one.
you may never know but that hour you lost showing some OW tard about safe cave diving that you saved a life or two!
Great answer Billy!Quote:
Originally Posted by billyf
Many of them know not to ask .The really determined ones see us and know where to go ...sometimes following our lines or lights.
Places like Orange Grove and Manatee it's especially easy to be followed because there is OW diving in a spring where caves are easily found. Recently I observed a team of two obvious OW divers doing the traverse from Catfish to Main Spring. A question I always have is whether to make a point of it to park personnel. I have in the past and it was just shrugged off.
While I have not yet attempted any cave training (Nov 17th we will) I can still vote on this poll. I would just say no and if they do not like it well so be it.
What they do after is up to them as was stated before "can't fix stupid". My wife and I were in NC last year wreck diving, we were still very new to diving had taken AOW and a basic wreck course, but I still knew we had lots to learn. On our second dive, one of the other couples said to us (after talking about the wreck and how it had some nice swim threw's) you do not need to have any certification to do the swim through's, you can still see daylight and its wide open. When we got to that part of the wreck many people were going in, I looked at my wife and waved her off and she agreed. We are both very adventuous, but we can see just through common sense and looking at the wreck that even a "sanitized" wreck could be deadly with out proper training. And this attitude will carry on when we start in the caves. So if anyone see's us about to do anything even resembling a bone head manuver, or can point out something for improvement I hope you will and not even think worry if I or my wife will take it the wrong way. At least you know you did your part, and we take constructive critisim well (most of the time :) )
Oh, and in highschool I saw those movies like red asphalt and they did not make much of an impression then, but I know while do my homework and gettting ready for cavern and intro I have watched many videos like the one on the NSS=CDS site (Lamar Hires I believe)and the last dive of Artie Shaw and it has definitly made an impact on how I approach situations even if I am trainined, not that I fear them but to make smart choices and have respect for the enviroment and how easily it can kick my butt.
Billy,
I like your attitude and approach. We as the cave divers are the ones who lead the interest in caves in the first place. I find it counter productive to tell an O/W no but then slide off in the water and swim into the cave you don't want them to know about. Sure you can hide out in the shadows and wait until you feel the coast is clear but how about the o/w's hiding out in the shadow you don't see. I became an O/W instructor after I was full cave and have since moved on to cave and mixed gas instructor. I engaged a rather heated conversation the day I came back from my IE with the course director who taught my IDC. He was VERY against even mentioning cave and tech diving in an open water class. After several years and having never taught for him, he has finally swayed to my way of thinking when he learned how effective my ramblings about cave and tech in the O/W classes really can be. After over 300 OW students, I do not teach much open water anymore, but I can assure you it is important to inform the student diver about all aspects of diving. This includes cave and mixed gas. Honestly, as an instructor would you teach a class and never mention currents or thermal protection if the student stated they would never dive in currents or in water below 85 degrees? Bottom line is we all need to take some time to educate. I hear do not tell them as they will die and we will be locked out of the site. Nobody wants to be the police but I can assure you if your child was playing in the street and a stranger happened along and told them the hazards of being in the street and they cried to you about the lecture the bad man gave them, you would have a sense of gratitude deep inside for the life of your child someone saved. If not you may want to seriously rethink your entire life. Or maybe you don’t have children. I have always taken the time to speak to anyone who approaches but I will from now on put aside my own desire to dive so I can possibly save the life of a follower diver. I do not have any possessions or time that can possibly be worth the life of another human being. (even the stupid ones that will eventually kill themselves). At least I will continue on my path knowing I did everything I could. If I get sued then so be it. Like I said I have no possessions or time worth a life anyway. It almost makes me feel like some people place their own material worth over life itself. If a dive site was shut down over someone dying because you did nothing, what is lost to you? The dive site or just some poor stupid soul who should have known better in the first place? Did you always know the caves could kill you? Educate, Educate, Educate this is what will open and keep open dive sites we all enjoy.
Just had a situation where I was on the Mill Pond and had a couple ask me where the springs on the pond were located. We started talking without me giving out any information. I asked them what they were planning on doing. They were just snorkeling and I confirmed this by looking in there canoe. I then vaguely told them the location of the springs as I still wasn't sure whether they might plan to return at some point with tanks and gear. Although from talking to them I'm pretty sure they weren't scuba trained at all.
Really, do you know what happens to the VERY few OW divers that are rescued from certain death in a cave? Most give up diving all together and avoid water sports and suffer debilitating "terrors" for decades, the psychological consequences are life long.Quote:
Originally Posted by Real1628
The reason why people want to be calm and "reasonable" in situations like this is because they want that warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from handling a situation in the most PC of ways.....maybe if someone cuts in front of you at the Starbucks thats the right way to go but the problem is that we're talking about someones life and by taking the PC way you're really making the persons stupidity about your need to feel good about yourself......and that arrogant and selfish.
So in a situation where you don't have the time to become that wonderful mentor and quasi demigod there's one option, say what you must, do what you must including removing there second stage with a knife or punching them in the face, better to go home with a fat lip, bloody nose and banged up ego then to not go home at all.......
Now anyone with an IQ of over 50 is going to go home one pissed off individual but then there going to to some homework on the internet and that's when the :blackbar2 moment happens, and running to the light he will go and think WOW that guy who hit me might not be my best friend, he may be my only friend because he just saved my life.........
Now of course if women are involved and since they are a lot smarter then us knuckle draggers the entire situation will be handled without any violence whatsoever.
Cheers,
Jon
My comments in blue above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jont
It depends on the cave. I usually use a bit of self-deprecation. At Manatee or Kitty: "This is a pretty dicey little hole. I have two weeks of cave diving training, and I would't dream of going in there without a professional guide!" At Peacock or Ginnie: "It starts out really pretty, but it gets deceptive in a hurry. I've had two weeks of cave diving training, and I'd be embarrassed to admit how many times I've had to use all of it to save myself." There is a reason why every class ends with a LOAS drill!