Pothole is clogged up and is not an exit

Please be aware that Pothole is clogged up with debris and is not now a viable exit point.

NFSA member divers attempted to ascend today after other NFSA members discovered a lot of erosion and debris visible from topside in Pothole sink sometime after tropical storm Debbie.

NFSA will be in touch with park management to devise a plan to survey the situation and come up with an agreeable way to remove the rubble to once again make Pothole an emergency exit point.

We ask that no one take it upon themselves to attempt to clear the debris until a thorough survey is made from the top and from the cave side. We are fearful that large clumps of debris could fall onto divers and/or reduce visibility in the cave when other divers are in there.

Jim Wyatt
NFSA

THANKS for the warning!!

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Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

...We ask that no one take it upon themselves to attempt to clear the debris until a thorough survey is made from the top and from the cave side. We are fearful that large clumps of debris could fall onto divers and/or reduce visibility in the cave when other divers are in there.

Jim Wyatt
NFSA

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This is good advice from Jim. A large part of the bank around pot hole has eroded and shifted,and we are unsure of how much debris is there.

Stupid question- Has a warning sign been placed on the mainline under pothole indicating that it is now obstructed?

thanks.

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Originally Posted by gschaut

Stupid question- Has a warning sign been placed on the mainline under pothole indicating that it is now obstructed?

thanks.

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No sir. This was only discovered a few hours ago.

Not a stupid question. May be a consideration for discussion around placement of permanent marked arrows.
Thaks for the fast update Jim and Kelly.

The park has been alerted,but they are closed by now. We've put a request to place a notice at the park informing people.

It could get a lot worse early next week if this storm hits.

Just think of the possibilities if Pothole was to breakdown and open up to the size of Challenge. I we could all get our AD award in one weekend.

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Originally Posted by TONY CHANEY

Just think of the possibilities if Pothole was to breakdown and open up to the size of Challenge. I we could all get our AD award in one weekend.

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It's been a couple years since we surfaced in pot hole, but while it does not look it from the mainline due to the angles involved, the exit itself was large enough then to easily allow two divers to exit side by side and there was room for 3 - 4 divers on the surface.

So a quick and dirty AD was an option already.

Thanks for the heads up Jim!

Thank you Jim and thank you NFSA!!!

I was the one that checked it out on the request of Jim and the NFSA. It is nasty. The line starts out as thin cave line and eventually turns into a thicker line. I got up a ways past the thick line and could not see even a slight glow from the surface. At that point I could not go any further because my tanks kept hitting what felt like a large log. Debris was flying down everywhere around me every inch higher I tried to go. Debris and silt were getting into my regulator,as well. If you wanted to exit from there right now you'd probably have to dig your way up and out and it would not be easy. Please take the NFSA seriously and do not even bother attempting to surface there.

Damn Jim, you are going to need a REALLY big plunger.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Damn Jim, you are going to need a REALLY big plunger.

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Now I am disappointed!!! The czar of sarcasm I figured would say,"Call rotorooter",or "Order 10 gallons of Milk of Magnesia",or finally "Lower GI ordered for Pothole".

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Originally Posted by MDiver429

I Debris and silt were getting into my regulator,as well. If you wanted to exit from there right now you'd probably have to dig your way up and out and it would not be easy. Please take the NFSA seriously and do not even bother attempting to surface there.

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Or worse yet,dig your way out only to have more come down on you. The bank has moved away from the side to some degree,and a close up assessment has to be made. A fix needs to be accomplished,but at a time when divers aren't in the system,because a resulting major silt out could present a safety hazard to any team in the water. The green light has been given to do something afterhours when divers aren't in the system because we are interested in getting this open for emergency use. Be safe.

Why not let nature take its course and seal it up if that's the result? Seems like opposing natural forces isn't something that usually nets a long term positive outcome. Maybe just remove the line going up to it?

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Originally Posted by mdax

Why not let nature take its course and seal it up if that's the result? Seems like opposing natural forces isn't something that usually nets a long term positive outcome. Maybe just remove the line going up to it?

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In my opinion, most likely it's not very stable. Every day divers swim underneath pothole, with some quantity of bubbles bound to go directly up there. I would imagine if we don't interfere with nature now, we will interfere with nature unintentionally at some later unpredictable time.

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Originally Posted by Greenwood_60

In my opinion, most likely it's not very stable. Every day divers swim underneath pothole, with some quantity of bubbles bound to go directly up there. I would imagine if we don't interfere with nature now, we will interfere with nature unintentionally at some later unpredictable time.

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The line could moved to the other side of the passage, as it goes past that area.

Does this mean that I have to stop logging it as the end of my first dive and the beginning of my second dive when I swim passed it now?

Thanks for the heads up Jim. Has the line and sign been removed? Not everyone may get the message before they dive there.

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Originally Posted by FW

The line could moved to the other side of the passage, as it goes past that area.

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It's possible that would work. I don't know that it is worth the risk. I can't imagine many of us will alter out path through that area, since the cave bends around a corner right at pothole.

What always worries me is the dome in the Peanut tunnel, I swear it's going to collapse one of these days and everyone of you should learn the Olsen bypass, just in case those rocks at Olsen shift...

Safe diving,

Rich

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Originally Posted by Rich

What always worries me is the dome in the Peanut tunnel, I swear it's going to collapse one of these days and everyone of you should learn the Olsen bypass, just in case those rocks at Olsen shift...

Safe diving,

Rich

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That is a definite Rich,but it could tomorrow or 100+ years from now,but you can bank on it happening. There are too many signs to be ignored.

Now would be a good time to learn to dig with your fins, I've found that as much as I like my new dive rite fins, the traditional jet's make a much sturdier shovel.

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Originally Posted by CaveMD

Now would be a good time to learn to dig with your fins, I've found that as much as I like my new dive rite fins, the traditional jet's make a much sturdier shovel.

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Just butt mount an entrenching tool. Better yet, two of them for redundancy,

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

Just butt mount an entrenching tool. Better yet, two of them for redundancy,

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Ben McDaniels?

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

Just butt mount an entrenching tool. Better yet, two of them for redundancy,

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..just sounds so wrong ... not judging ... just sayin'

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Originally Posted by floridakid

Ben McDaniels?

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Pretty sure woody used to carry one for "massaging" a restriction open.

Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by CaveMD

Pretty sure woody used to carry one for "massaging" a restriction open.

Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2

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Nah, that was a "go forth" :-)

Ducksworth once pulled an entrenching tool out to dig himself into apopka blue upstream.

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

Ducksworth once pulled an entrenching tool out to dig himself into apopka blue upstream.

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To re-phase in a politically correct statement he used a device of unknown origin to manipulate the time/space continuum to warp himself further into the cave.

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Originally Posted by tflaris

To re-phase in a politically correct statement he used a device of unknown origin to manipulate the time/space continuum to warp himself further into the cave.

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A sonic screwdriver is easy to carry and doesn't involve doing anything tricky to the time-space continuum.

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Originally Posted by Art Greenberg

A sonic screwdriver is easy to carry and doesn't involve doing anything tricky to the time-space continuum.

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As long as you have the Time And Relative Dimension In Space you're all good... :)

Safe diving,

Rich

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Originally Posted by Art Greenberg

A sonic screwdriver is easy to carry and doesn't involve doing anything tricky to the time-space continuum.

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I thought that a towel was the most massively useful thing you could have..........

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

Ducksworth once pulled an entrenching tool out to dig himself into apopka blue upstream.

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What? Was this an usually big person? I dove that cave 25 or so times in backmount 95s Where did he need to dig? The crack to the last room always gave me the willies 20 ft deep and roots. it was not silt raining down it was topsoil.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

I thought that a towel was the most massively useful thing you could have..........

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In your quest to find the ultimate question, it is indeed the most useful thing, but DON'T PANNIC, if you don't have one.

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Originally Posted by Xaryo

In your quest to find the ultimate question, it is indeed the most useful thing, but DON'T PANNIC, if you don't have one.

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42!

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Originally Posted by Rich

As long as you have the Time And Relative Dimension In Space you're all good... :)

Safe diving,

Rich

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:rollguy

I've often thought that a TARDIS would be a very handy thing to have - instead of two trips to Florida and 40 or so cave dives a year, we could pop down anytime on the spur of the moment!

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Damn Jim, you are going to need a REALLY big plunger.

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Where is the like button on this forum:)

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Originally Posted by MORGAN

I've often thought that a TARDIS would be a very handy thing to have - instead of two trips to Florida and 40 or so cave dives a year, we could pop down anytime on the spur of the moment!

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The problem with the TARDIS is navigation. You ask it to take you to the Henkel, and it takes you to the Crab Nebula instead.

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Originally Posted by gschaut

The problem with the TARDIS is navigation. You ask it to take you to the Henkel, and it takes you to the Crab Nebula instead.

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I thought that the navigational problems were specific to the Doctor's particular TARDIS. At any rate, since I'm wishing for something I'm not going to get, I'll wish for one with good navigation.

Actually, a time/space portal that goes from my bedroom closet to Dive Outpost would work just as well!

Well, yesterday was my birthday and my girlfriend made me this cake.

Maybe I can get through pothole now...

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...86718445_n.jpg

Any new news on the opening or is it permanently closed?
Not sure how or when this would take place.

JCG

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Originally Posted by JCGoodwin

Any new news on the opening or is it permanently closed?
Not sure how or when this would take place.

JCG

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Is has been officially removed as an emergency egress point,with the ascent line removed,and the line arrows changed to to reflect Olsen or P1 as the closest exit. I feel at this point that Pothole being used as an emergency exit will add to the emergency versus helping the situtation.

Are there still plans to reopen pothole?

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Originally Posted by Greenwood_60

Are there still plans to reopen pothole?

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No. We had 3 geologists look at the bank,and it is unstable. There is a large section that has shifted toward the sinkhole,and we don't know what the situtation is near the sink opening. We don't make this lightly because anybody surfacing there and disturbing the bank could be in for a Parker Turner type event. The loss of Pothole is a small price to pay,because if need to stabilize the bank was done,it would result in partial ,if not total cave closure while the work is being done.

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Originally Posted by hunabku

Well, yesterday was my birthday and my girlfriend made me this cake.

Maybe I can get through pothole now...

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Very cool! Showing this to Tina ...

Thanks Kelly I was wondering as I remember and looking at the photo's I took last spring it looked like it could be tough to fix.
Was there a lot of debris that came down into the main passage?
Is there any risk of a slide into the main passage?
I am sorry for the question if it is ignorant but I had never attempted to surface in Pot Hole or know any particulars about the size of the old exit.

JCG

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

No. We had 3 geologists look at the bank,and it is unstable. There is a large section that has shifted toward the sinkhole,and we don't know what the situtation is near the sink opening. We don't make this lightly because anybody surfacing there and disturbing the bank could be in for a Parker Turner type event. The loss of Pothole is a small price to pay,because if need to stabilize the bank was done,it would result in partial ,if not total cave closure while the work is being done.

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This will significantly change the Orange Grove to Peacock run (bigger cylinders or more cylinders needed).

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Originally Posted by diveongas

This will significantly change the Orange Grove to Peacock run (bigger cylinders or more cylinders needed).

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Why would this make a difference?

It shouldn't. With the closure of Pot Hole the mid point in the Olson line only shifted tunnel about 250' toward P1.

That's a 5 minute swim at 60' max depth and with a SAC of .6 that's only 8.5 cu ft more gas. If your gas reserves are that low, you should not be proceeding past Olsen anyway.

More to the point, with a decent SAC you can swim the grand reverse on double 95's and reach Challenge on thirds. Then do the remaining 1800' from Challenge to Orange grove on thirds of the remaining 2/3 rds. Going from OG to P1 is no different, just 400 ft shorter on the last leg.

Been many moons since I've been down there and heading that way soon...any new updates regarding the Pot Hole closure?

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Originally Posted by decostanza

Been many moons since I've been down there and heading that way soon...any new updates regarding the Pot Hole closure?

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Still closed, and will be for the foreseeable future.

Last week it was clogged, probably for the rest of time or until a collapse. From above it looks like the great pit of carkoon with a bunch of trees and bushes thrown in to fit the florida atmosphere.

Anyone got a nice picture, either pre or post fill-in, of pothole? :)

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Originally Posted by Greenwood_60

Anyone got a nice picture, either pre or post fill-in, of pothole? :)

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Check your email.

What are the chances that it could come crashing down on one's head while diving?

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Originally Posted by JamesK

Check your email.

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Thanks again James!

I think the odds of that would be remote, unless you're digging around up there. Even if there was a collapse it's a large spot in the tunnel, so while the viz would certainly go to zero, a sudden, total blockage is unlikely. Even if that occurred, and you were on the Olsen side, you could exit at Olsen.

Since the Mayan calendar ends tomorrow, it might be worth planning for double geologic collapse events with Olsen blocked just before the Crossover tunnel. If you sidemount, you could exit via the Crossunder tunnel and the Peanut line, or if you are real skinny and no-mount, you could take the SM tunnel from just past Pothole (on the Olsen side) to the Well jump and exit to the right side of the P1 cavern. Back mount divers will have to take either the 7 tunnel and exit at Olson, the Darkwater tunnel and exit via the crossover and peanut lines, or take Nicholson and/or Cisteen to exit at Cisteen or keep going to Olson. There's lots of options... :)

Argh, you're making my head hurt! LOL

Mayan calendar long count now ends the 23d!

Thanks for the update...I appreciate it...
Don

It's been about a month since diving past Pothole but there sure was a lot of light coming down and lighting up the floor.

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Originally Posted by Shocky

Mayan calendar long count now ends the 23d!

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I don't know...the weather forecast sure makes it look like Friday is the day, and there ain't nothing for Saturday...
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...24469634_n.jpg

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

It shouldn't. With the closure of Pot Hole the mid point in the Olson line only shifted tunnel about 250' toward P1.

That's a 5 minute swim at 60' max depth and with a SAC of .6 that's only 8.5 cu ft more gas. If your gas reserves are that low, you should not be proceeding past Olsen anyway.

More to the point, with a decent SAC you can swim the grand reverse on double 95's and reach Challenge on thirds. Then do the remaining 1800' from Challenge to Orange grove on thirds of the remaining 2/3 rds. Going from OG to P1 is no different, just 400 ft shorter on the last leg.

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The way I do the traverse I don't recalculate thirds. I swim from P1 to Olsen, onto Challenge and drop a marker at turn pressure. I start my 2nd dive at Orange Grove and when/if I make it to my marker I know I can continue on to P1 with my remaining gas. I can do the Grand Traverse on a set of 85s. I've never been a fan of recalculating pressures to do the traverse. It invites the possibility of making a mistake in calculations.

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Originally Posted by RN

The way I do the traverse I don't recalculate thirds. I swim from P1 to Olsen, onto Challenge and drop a marker at turn pressure. I start my 2nd dive at Orange Grove and when/if I make it to my marker I know I can continue on to P1 with my remaining gas. I can do the Grand Traverse on a set of 85s. I've never been a fan of recalculating pressures to do the traverse. It invites the possibility of making a mistake in calculations.

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Rob we do the same - the example was to show that no heroic tank sizes or efforts are needed.

Thirds is significant for us on the "grand reverse" as we can do OG to Challenge on thirds on the set up dive, so if we make P1 to Challenge on thirds on the second dive, we're good to go from Challenge to OG.

The first time we did this, we staged it to ensure adequate gas, but it was gas overkill.

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

we staged it to ensure adequate gas, but it was gas overkill.

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On my "full cave graduation dive," Orange Grove to Peacock 1, I hit thirds on 95s at Pothole. Of course, my SAC rate has improved since then. :roll:

Sludge, at first read, I thought you were talking about going Peacock 1 to Orange Grove, and I thought to myself, WOW, he really does have a crappy SAC rate! :)

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Originally Posted by Randy Thornton

Sludge, at first read, I thought you were talking about going Peacock 1 to Orange Grove, and I thought to myself, WOW, he really does have a crappy SAC rate! :)

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Uh, did you mean Olsen? It is actually a little harder to get from P1 to OG, than the other way around, depending on current.

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Originally Posted by FW

Uh, did you mean Olsen? It is actually a little harder to get from P1 to OG, than the other way around, depending on current.

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Plus, the last bit from Challenge to OG is 400' longer than Olsen to P1. Between the two, I suspect that's why most folks swim it the grand traverse the other way.

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Originally Posted by Randy Thornton

WOW, he really does have a crappy SAC rate! :)

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Randy I see that you have dove with him too :rollguy

My sarcastic reply was alluding to the idea that nobody should have to stage the Orange Grove to Peacock 1 traverse - my first time doing it, I almost didn't even hit thirds.

I'm tempted to try it with a single aluminum 80 (carrying a small buddy bottle, of course) just to see if I can make it all the way.

If you find the flow strong enough from the "distant tunnel" you are probably right.

Russell I have been wanting to do that dive again but using the rebreather. That system plays hell with the dill because of all the depth changes one has to account for. Let me know and maybe we can give it a try.

Using our rebreathers, last month we did the traverse both directions on the same day. Great day of diving.Runtimes about the same at around 95 minutes.

Al

Forest - just my apparently lame attempt at humor (suggesting that he hit 3rds by the time he went from P1 to Pothole!)

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

My sarcastic reply was alluding to the idea that nobody should have to stage the Orange Grove to Peacock 1 traverse - my first time doing it, I almost didn't even hit thirds.

I'm tempted to try it with a single aluminum 80 (carrying a small buddy bottle, of course) just to see if I can make it all the way.

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I chose to ignore it Russell, but you keep dragging it up and seem to want to make a point.

We did not do the dive under the guidance of an instructor or with some one who'd done it before, so we added some gas to the plan, we'd never done the grand traverse before (forward or backward), so we added some more gas to the plan, and we were doing it from P1 to OG - with the implication that if you come up slightly short on gas at Challenge with an 1800' stretch to OG, we'd have to turn around, so we added some more gas to the plan and decided on a stage to ensure plenty of gas for not only the traverse but also some poking around between Olsen and Challenge - an area where we had not spent much time poking around off the gold line.

Oddly enough many of our dives involve bringing excess gas and then not taking the most direct route from A-B. You see more cave that way and have a lot more fun.

Now, I suppose if we'd planned the dive in anticipation of a future gas consumption dick measuring contest with a sarcastic CDF member we may have done it differently - but frankly I doubt it as it made sense in the context of the dive and what we wanted to do on the dive.

Larry, my posts were not directed at your decision to properly set up the dive. On the contrary, I applaud anyone who goes the extra step to do something properly, even if they have done the same dive a dozen dives before.

I don't run a primary line at Jackson Blue when I scooter it, but I love to see others do it.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

My sarcastic reply was alluding to the idea that nobody should have to stage the Orange Grove to Peacock 1 traverse - my first time doing it, I almost didn't even hit thirds.

I'm tempted to try it with a single aluminum 80 (carrying a small buddy bottle, of course) just to see if I can make it all the way.

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Wow! Based on my logs your SAC rate should be 0.36!!! You are my hero!!

BTW with a 0.36 SAC rate you will use 86 cft of gas. No aluminum 80s for you my friend...


Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2

I have an AL100 you can borrow... ;)

If the "Grand Traverse" is from OG to PI or the other way, what is the traverse from Peanut to OG or the other way called?

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Originally Posted by TONY CHANEY

If the "Grand Traverse" is from OG to PI or the other way, what is the traverse from Peanut to OG or the other way called?

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The Grand Traverse with a side of peanut butter. :)

Like it!

To be honest, I never heard of the "Grand Traverse" until the CDF came into existence. We always called it "The Mile Run."