I'm curious how standard the practice is of leaving a backup light on the line, and exiting, when you can't find your buddy?
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I'm curious how standard the practice is of leaving a backup light on the line, and exiting, when you can't find your buddy?
Not very.
It's how I was taught by German. Also believe it's the way gue ends the lost buddy search. I wonder which agency doesn't teach this, but i figure this thread will answer that question.
I was taught that as well. Hope to never have to use that skill.
Yes, Bil Phillips teaches this.
Dave
I am against this practice... Simply because I sometimes try to lull my buddies into a false sense of security and then lure them into a dark cave before I cut their light cord and head for the exit.
I hope that it isn't very standard to be losing buddies.Quote:
Originally Posted by w ripley
I heard about it . . . . seems like it would be handy for the search party.
No its a "beacon" facing into the cave for the lost buddy and if he(she) finds it a symbol that your buddy has already left. Any searches won't see it until their nearly upon it as the beam points into the cave.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax
Dave and I have a buddy who carries one. He attaches it to a line with an arrow pointing to the way out. I've never dove with anyone else who had mentioned this as their common practice.
Omg I gave a serious answer...
It was discussed with my dive buddies this weekend. In the event of a seperation and not able to reconnect to buddy, backup light would be left on the line as a sign that the diver had left the cave. With a directional marker of course!
I'd do it if it boiled down to that. The way I see it, if they're doing the same procedure I am (covering the light and looking for my light), they have a chance of seeing that light clipped off to the line, which ultimately leads out. I have 2 more lights and the line (probably most important), and any one of those should be enough to get home.
I think there should be a time limit on how long you look for a "lost" buddy. I know of several cases where buddies searched for each other, until one or both ran out of gas. In OW, the time limit is one minute. I think cave diving should be at least 5 minutes, but not more than half your reserve gas. The light, and directional marker are a good solution to confirm the buddy is no longer in the cave.
I am not sure what to do, if the marker is pointing back into the cave :(
Forrest im sure you know better than most of us what to do if that happens. I think the phrase dont turn one into two comes into play even tho that would suck if the buddy did die. However how common is it to lose a buddy when they are on the same dive plan and not going to a certain spot and then separating? I just can't fathom it, seems like someone isn't paying attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
This is how I was trained as well, and what I would do if it really came to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by w ripley
What agency? Just curious : )Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
wow, it seems we're on on totally different sheets of music here. The procedure I learned was
1. Mark the line with an arrow pointing to our exit
2. Cover light and look around for buddy, then turn in all directions with light looking for them
3. Calculate gas requirements for search: Add my third and the gas used to get to that point. Difference from what is left is how much time/gas i have to search
4. Attach spool to line and conduct search until reaching pressure in step 3
5. Leave backup light on line indicating I'd left the cave, hoping buddy would find it and then exit
I thought this was a "standard"...clearly I'll make sure to include this in any briefings I have with any new buddies.
NACD, although I got a text from my instructor asking who taught me that, so maybe this was something learned from dive buddies post certification.Quote:
Originally Posted by pink arrows
I'll let him comment...I've got my plastic, so we're allowed to disagree now, I suppose he couldn't claim he trained thinking divers if they all agreed with him a few years later :)
LMAO James! I teach to leave one of your safety reels attached to the line you found with an arrow indicating which way you went, which may or may not be the right way... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
Safe diving,
Rich
I got the same training from an NSS-CDS instructor. The "theory" being that light+arrow indicates lost buddy search as opposed to a navigation or glory marker. AND that a backup light that is still burning indicates that the light was left behind in the VERY immediate past (few hours) as opposed to a light left behind last week. AND... if the buddy has no light and is blindly following the line, an extra light is always appreciated.Quote:
Originally Posted by pink arrows
I cover a lot of things with a new buddy... this doesn't happen to be one of them. One person is one thing, but none of 20 or so cave buddies have covered it with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by mdax
I will talk to Giselle and establish a protocol.
Rich, that's exactly the way I was taught in 1997, it's the way my IT taught, and it's the way my mentors teach. So, at least me and you are on the same page :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich
Dude(s), how is a safety reel going to help? If they have a line and a direction out, I don't see a reason for a reel. I can see the light... (haha I just reread that..)... But what is the reasoning behind leaving a reel other than making it look like you looked for them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Superlyte27
I think we may be mixing "lost buddy" with "lost line". I was taught that after locating the lost line (using my safety reel) to leave the safety reel wrapped on the main line.
It's not an agency thing, at least not through NACD, NSS-CDS, IANTD, or TDI. I do, however, discuss the practice with my students. It's common enough out there that I want them to know what it means if they see it.
I think half of your reserve is way too much. In my classes I discuss with my students some different lost buddy scenarios and distance from open water in terms of gas pressure. The farther in you are the less you should use searching for a buddy. A lost buddy is likely to have an increase in gas consumption so the likelihood for gas sharing increases.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
I believe the reel is that on the last pass out to where you think the buddy is located, leave the reel tied out there. Then if your buddy finds that line it will lead them to the main line, your light and arrow. Just another chance they can help find the exit.
At least that's why my buddy and I would do...however there is pretty much no chance we'd lose each other. When i read about you'all diving with so many different people I feel super thankful to have one buddy/wife to dive with all the time.
Lost buddy is rare. Lost buddy AND gas loss is even more rare. It's an incredibly slim chance they need you to donate gas unless you grossly overstay your search time. IMO get out, meet up on deco, you both should know the way out, and if you don't, you'll never catch someone with a head start seeing as how everyone swims around 50fpm anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
I have had a couple of different cave instructors and I have not been taught to leave my backup on the line. I don't recall seeing it as part of the procedure in either the CDS or the NACD student manuals either.
It doesn't sound like a bad idea.
I was taught to do a shielded light search and also look for signs of the lost buddy (bubbles on ceiling, silt, etc). If nothing I would then drop an arrow, calculate gas to use for the search, tie in a reel and perform a search pattern. Once I hit my gas limit I would untie my reel, leave my arrow to indicate I had exited, and exit.
I truly hope I never have to do that.
I can see some benifits to leaving the light. I don't exactly like the idea of exiting solo with only two light sources.
What if...
It indicates that you left the cave 'cause presumably they're looking for you also, or at least one would hope so....Quote:
Originally Posted by pink arrows
Safe diving,
Rich
YES! hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by hunabku
obi from what i have been told by people who use this procedure, they carry a third backup light (usually a pretty small one) for such a situation. at least, that's what Dave's buddy does.
You obviously don't know the people I dive with...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich
Statistically, the odds of a light failure on any one dive is slightly over 1%. So the odds of a light failure during exit half of dive would be in the order of 0.5%. AND... if you checked both lights functioning before leaving 3rd light behind (mandatory for me!), then would not the odds of a DOUBLE, simultanious light failure be on the order of 1 in 40,000?
And for what it's worth, 3 lights is a minimum, I usually dive with 4. My butt is wide enough that I've got more than enough room for one more light.
No one said anything about gas loss. What I said was increased gas consumption. The last lost buddy incident I remember hearing about both divers ran out of gas about 300' from open water.Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
Damn I made the 1:40,000 club. On another note...never was taught to leave a light on the line but I am giving it some thought. If you have dove to thirds then you might have also used alot of your primary light's burn time ( not all od us are using LEDS). Now leave one of your backup lights. This leaves you with less that a full charge on your primary or even less depending on amount of search time and only one backup light. I do like the idea of leaving the spool / reel in that you really don't need it for exiting, can be a good marker and you will not waste time exiting trying to remove the spool / reel and arrow. It could also serve as a "last seen" location for the search team. Humm..very interesting thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by gschaut
I was taught that, if you know where you are and how much gas you used getting there, you reserve twice the gas you need to get out (or twice the gas to the nearest known point, which can be a lot more) and then use one-third of what you have over that to search. Fail to find buddy? Leave backup light and directional marker on line and exit.
I would never begrudge a backup light in that circumstance, because if I have lost my buddy, I have seriously failed him. Anything I can do to make it more likely he will survive the event, I will do. I, after all, have the line, and I don't know if he does.
DittoQuote:
Originally Posted by LCF
Reserve enough gas so that if at the end of the search you find an OOG or low on gas buddy you have enough for 2 to exit. If you don't find them, leave a light on the line and the arrow you placed previously as well.
NSS-CDS, NACD, IANTD, DSAT, TDI, NASE do not have this procedure in place.Quote:
Originally Posted by w ripley
I wrote an article for Underwater Speleology a while back on this subject and you can read it at
http://www.cavecountrydiving.com/div...ve-diving.html
I always have 3 backup lights. :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by TONY CHANEYDamn I made the 1:40,000 club. On another note...never was taught to leave a light on the line but I am giving it some thought. If you have dove to thirds then you might have also used alot of your primary light's burn time ( not all od us are using LEDS). Now leave one of your backup lights. This leaves you with less that a full charge on your primary or even less depending on amount of search time and only one backup light. I do like the idea of leaving the spool / reel in that you really don't need it for exiting, can be a good marker and you will not waste time exiting trying to remove the spool / reel and arrow. It could also serve as a "last seen" location for the search team. Humm..very interesting thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by gschaut
You guy's will laugh, but I go with 6 lights. One primary, two on my helmet, one on my harness and one in each pocket. I see no reason to be lights out, zero vis, yes, but not without light
The only issue I could see was being without enough lights. That's easy enough to fix through preparation. My dive buddy happens to be the one I love so I'd want to do anything possible to help her.
Does anybody know where I can get one of those bear claw torches like the father in Sanctum gave his son?
There are multiple reasons. Not paying attention accounts for a lot of separations, but those usually end up with buddies finding one another quickly. Siltouts can cause buddies to get separated, especially if one of them looses the line. Visual jumps have caused more than one buddy separation, resulting in fatal accidents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Carlisle
Solo Cave Diving Socially (SCDS) This could be a new certification for the Main Buddyless.... Really this is one of the reasons you need to be self sufficient.Quote:
Originally Posted by mdax
I usually have 4, sometimes 5. Kind of a holdover from pre-LED days when I had a primary and a backup fail on the same dive!Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
Boy we are spoiled when it comes to lights. The old timers will remember a time when you were not limited buy the gas on your back, LP 120 pumped to 3400, but the burn time of your lights. You would not notice the slow dimming of you halogen because after an hour you night vision was pretty good. Halogens just slowing got dimmer until you switch to your backup. It was very common to exit by adding a backup light.
Anyone remember charging the wet cells with the car on surface interval?
He does have a lot of experience. I have tried turning my lights off and to stop breathing and try to swim away but you have to breath eventually and he has ears like a cave bat! And he is damn quick for an old guy!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Carlisle
Maybe it's time to try a rebreather...
My first cave diving light in 1973 was powered by wet NiCad batteries....45 minute burn time. We recharged them in the parking lot from the alternator of our vans and trucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by curtschu
I was a lot later then that but I had a big-assed cannister with a red white and blue battery!
Can you elaborate on where this calculation comes from? This is new to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt
Initially it sounds similar to mine. If I am still entering in a no flow system and lose my buddy at 2200psi that means its 800psi for me to exit from that point. 800 * 2 = 1600 psi so I need to be leaving at that pressure. 2200-1600 = 800 available to search on the line. If I am going off the line, 1/3rds of that is 200psi. If its a high flow system or I'm closer than 800psi to an exit then your way is simpler but more conservative.Quote:
Breathe your tanks down to your original turn pressure and then use an additional 1/3 of your reserve. For instance, you started the dive with 3000 psi and at 2200 psi realized you had lost your buddy. You can use another 200 psi down to 2000 psi then an additional 300 psi, which makes your new turn pressure 1700 psi.
This is the maximum amount of gas to use searching for a lost buddy as taught by many/most of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjack
There may be circumstances where more or less can be used. This would depend upon depth, penetration distance and who the buddy is.
I guess I just wasn't taught that way. Your example is not conservative enough for me if I've lost you at turn pressure. Although I would probably spend a small amount of extra time exiting slowly over the furthest segment of the dive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt
Imo, you need 2x the gas to get out at any time. 1x for you, 1x for your buddy. Don't go below that value. Pay attention to depth, distance from the door (in the form of time), and know your sac rate. If you have those 3 pieces of info, you know (or should know) how long you can search, especially if that search draws you farther into the cave.
The calculation quoted is based on the idea that you lost your buddy during the penetration phase of the dive. It doesn't work if you were on your way out when it happened.
If there's just 2 of you and 1 is lost then yes. If there's 3 of you and 1 is lost you do have a considerable amount of gas to search with. You'd just need to switch donors on the way out.Quote:
Originally Posted by PfcAJ
Jim, I read the article but did not see anything pertaining to leaving a backup light on the line. Did I miss it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt
There is nothing about leaving backups on the line. It is not an established procedure by any of the training organizations I teach Cave Diving through.Quote:
Originally Posted by TONY CHANEY
Tell me how you would do the calculation.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjack
Estimate the gas needed for 1 diver to exit from wherever you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt
Double that.
Subtract from the gas you have.
Take the difference and divide by 3. This is your new turn pressure.
500 psi to exitQuote:
Originally Posted by rjack
x2 = 1000
have 2000
subtract 1000 leaves 1000
divide by 3 = 333
so what is your turn pressure?
1333?
1000 for 2 to exit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay
have 2000psi
so 1000 remainder/3 = 300
2000-300 = 1700psi turn
Help a newbie out . . . I see many statements of "no agency trains to leave a light on the line."
Is there anything wrong with leaving a light on the line? With an arrow, of course.
As long as it is discussed in the individual dive plan and agreed on by the group then there is no problem with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax
It just isn't common practice. But then again, there are a lot of things that are/aren't common practice that should/shouldn't be.
I see nothing wrong with it so long as you have an extra backup light for this purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax
The arrow gets placed when you begin your search, not as much for your buddy but for you, so you don't get turned around in the process of searching. Its not removed unless you find your buddy nearby and can get to it readily, there's no urgency, no disagreement on the exit direction etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax
The backup light gets added if you have not found your buddy (at least it was part of my training). That leaves the searcher with a primary and one backup. Obviously some people feel the need to have more than 2 backups and leaving one to exit (no matter how many your start with) may make some people uncomfortable.
Here's what Bil teaches:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBW4rqSAMmo
OK missed the part where you subtract the quotient from the dividend. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by rjack
The video is excellent. Nice to see how the light was attached to the line so that ita illumination was on the directional arrow.
This whole approach is a new concept for me - hence the reason for the thread - and I learned a lot from the replies so far. I'm at the point where I think how you approach the "lost-buddy-leave-behind" might be more dependent on the diving level of that buddy: The newer = the more you should do anything you can think of to indicate the way out AND that you are swimming out of the cave, so he or she won't stay to look for you.
I don't necessarily see the same value for seasoned divers, and especially for divers who dive together all the time, although I can't find one reason to be against the "leave-the-backup-light" approach.
At least I have a new tool to carry with me on my dives, and that's worth a lot. And, I'm sure it will be a pre-dive topic the next time I go in with someone new. But, then again, I can't imagine ever being out of immediate contact with, and not watching like a hawk, someone on that level.
I don't see any reason to carry another backup light, if you are going to do this. You carry three lights for emergencies. This is an emergency of sorts, for which you have a backup light. You still have another backup light should you experience a SECOND failure, which is failure of your primary light. To then have failure of your second backup light starts to look like what a friend of mine calls a "Little House on the Prairie" scenario. By the same token, you could say that if you have to use your backup light, then you ought to have two more . . .
Infinity backup lights.
I have a friend who carries a pre-printed note with a pre-punched hole in it. The note says he has left the cave. Just put on an arrow, clip the note, and go. Leave a light with it if you want. That's pretty easy to carry and very easy for anyone to understand, even with no pre-planned discussion of the potential situation. Not necessarilly advocating it, but thought I would throw it out for discussion.
Problem Solved...
Attachment 6588
Awesome!Quote:
Originally Posted by hunabku
Dave
+1, can I get those glowsticks at Edd's?Quote:
Originally Posted by hunabku
Actually, you should be placing a non-directional cookie when you begin your search. An arrow should be placed if you see signs your buddy is off the line and you go searching for your buddy off the line. At least that's the way I teach it.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjack
Also, as far as calculating how much gas to use to search for a lost buddy, I recommend doing these calculations before ever getting in the water. That way if separation occurs you don't have to go through the calculations under water while stressed. I base my search pressure on how far I am from the exit (in terms of psi not feet) and who my buddy is (is it my wife who I know will maintain a relaxed RMV or another buddy who may double his/her RMV). The closer to the exit I am, the more gas I use to search but I will never use more than 400 psi which should be 1/3 of my reserve.
Why a cookie? I thought you placed a cookie at the last place you saw your buddy and a directional arrow any time you went off the line?Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
Nevermind....that is just what you said....good nite
+1 for German & backup light. I believe we also practiced leaving wet notes with the backup light if we did not find lost buddy.Quote:
Originally Posted by mdax
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
I can't see any advantage to placing a marker that does not give a directional reference in this situation. I'm open to learn why though.
Santiago from Protec showed me the same thing in Intro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Torpedo
OK...so far we have:
Stop and look for diver with light, cover light and look for diver, place cookie on line, place arrow on line, check gas, deploy spool / reel tie into arrow and look for diver, if can't find diver reel back to line, remove reel, remove cookie, leave arrow, deploy backup light and place it on line. (also to some, place wet note or "REM").
Seems it would be better or less time consuming to: Look with light, cover light, place arrow on line, deploy reel and tie into arrow and look for diver, if can't find diver reel back to line, leave reel. Never was taught to leave the reel but it seems like a good marker. Thoughts...I am always learning and willing to do so.
I don't know how you can do calculations before getting in the water, the amount you have available to search varies depending on how much gas its going to take to exit.Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
The cookie does nothing an arrow won't do. And if you swim back and forth on the line a couple times or turn around twice the arrow maintains your exit orientation. Swimming into the cave after you lost your buddy, makes a bad situation much much worse. Sure in theory you should recogize that you're swimming in new cave and not exiting. But if you are stressed about your buddy you might not notice and the next arrow may be too far into the cave to turn you around in time, or it may not even point to your exit. Also bad, you're on the line and your buddy is found and returns to the line. But your buddy has been off the line and is confused and thinks the exit is the wrong way. You doubt yourself under his persistence and go the wrong way with him.
Drop the arrow before you become anymore distracted by the loss of your buddy than you already are. The likelihood that you'll lose your exit orientation is too high and the consequences too grave.
Actually, the best thing is not to loose track of your buddy in the first place :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by TONY CHANEY
There are arrows all over the cave. A cookie lets the recovery team know where to start looking.Quote:
Originally Posted by hunabku
The only time you should be leaving the line you're on is if you see any signs of your buddy off the line. In some systems if you went off the line down every side passage you could be there for hours or days. If you see a passage that looks like an area where it would be easy to get confused and swim the wrong way, like a Y, then I might go look down there without seeing signs of my buddy such as silt or bubbles. But I'm not just going to go down every side passage looking. As for the safety, this is why I have always required 2 safeties, even before the NACD did it. If you run a safety down a side passage to look for your buddy but don't find him/her, then leave the safety behind to give your buddy a better chance at getting out alive. Again, this is based on only deploying a safety if you have a reasonable belief your buddy is down that passage.Quote:
Originally Posted by TONY CHANEY
Exactly! And what I tell my students to do is calculate amounts based on ranges. If they are 200-400 psi from the exit they use X amount. If they are 400-600 psi from the exit they use Y amount. If they're greater than 600 psi from the exit they use Z amount. And in low flow systems you should know how far you are from the exit. If you start with 3600 psi and used 1000 psi to penetrate and you lose your buddy at 2100 psi then you're 500 psi from the exit.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjack
See above.Quote:
The cookie does nothing an arrow won't do.
Or you could just say you were 'x minutes into the cave' or 'approximately y feet from the entrance' (pick your position of reference). I feel an arrow (with your name on it) provides some valuable info to your buddy if he does find the line. In come caves, arrows are many hundreds of feet apart. Not all caves are ginnie springs.
Thanks for giving your reasons for leaving a cookie RN.
I still don't feel that the benifit to the recovery team outweighs the benifit I would get from having a directional reference during such an event.
There may or may not be arrows all over the cave but how many of them have a backup light attached to them? Or my initials on them?
I have no intention of changing the way anyone does anything. Reading this thread did get me to change the way I do though. I had never been told to leave my light. If the unthinkable ever happens I see benifits to leaving it, so I will.
In my cave classes I teach to leave an arrow. The arrow has your name on it and if you have to tell a search or recovery team where to start looking you can reference your arrow.
The arrow is suggested so as to better assist the diver in maintaining a reference to exit direction.
If nothing else, This thread has certainly got me thinking. I would assume your most likely to lose a buddy in really crappy vis, as in a silt out and not in clear water? I can see real value in the light then, it might be visible to get someone back to the line, how many of us have been all over the line before we found it in a lost line drill?
having not (thnks goodness) ever been a lost buddy I would appreciate that and I would add my own arrow on exit just so it was known I found it and was on my way out