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I thought I saw a thread on this a while back but searched and could not find it so here is my question. Which tank is better for sidemount? worthington lp85 or faber lp85? I have heard reports that the fabers can get pretty bouyant under 2000psi. It seems the added weight of the worthingtons wouldnt hurt (prob help) when diving dry.
It all depends if you want to carry the needed extra weight as steel (heavier tanks), or lead.Quote:
Originally Posted by jxh2297
You know, I remember that thread and I dive fabers and worthingtons LP85's, and never had noticed a difference. I had to take mine to the quarry and dive them down to 500 psi. The fabers did get light, but not until the last 1,000. Indeed they got so light that I had to add six lbs of weight in order to stay at 10 feet (500 psi). I added the 3lb weights to the cam bands of the tanks. The worthingtons were not an issue at 500psi at 10 feet. I had not had those tanks that low before and had no issues at 1,000 psi. In shallow cave, swimming, it wouldn't be such a problem, and during deco with something to hang on to, it wouldn't be a problem. A nice full deco bottle I think would overcome the weight issue as soon as you picked it up. And normally you would never reach 500 psi diving thirds. "normally"
skip
Rob Neto (RN) posted a good little article recently on the differences. I can't remember where it was on the forum though.
edit: here is the link - http://chipoladivers.com/2012/04/sidemount-cylinders/
Personally I use Faber LP85's because I don't need all the extra weight of Worthingtons. I have dove both down to ~500 psi and I still didn't need any extra weight with the Fabers, but I wear a very light UW for my trilam drysuit. As Forrest said before, you can't breathe lead.
I prefer the Fabers as well. I am able to stay submerged easily with 500 psi remaining in the cylinders while in my dry suit with light garments. If I were to be diving in extremely cold environments where I needed much thicker undergarments, I would consider adding a small amount of weight. So I guess it depends, on your most frequent driving environment, and use of undergarments. Also to me, and this may just be purely in my head, I think that the Fabers swim better for some reason, maybe it is how they trim.
Thanks for the replies, the only thing that I see about the dangers is if you used them in open water where you get them down to 500, but looks like for cave fabers would work well
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And with sidemount I was talking about the butt of the tank riding high and messing up trim with fabers? But again prob wouldn't happen in cave diving
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Also consider the difference in Fabers. The 3442 series are about 3lbs heavier than the the lp 2640's. The 3442's swing around 8lbs full to empty, while the 2640's swing around 6lbs.
The 3442's are still negative when empty. The 2640's are not.
Huh? Air weighs the same regardless of what kind of cylinder it's in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Bryan
Different volume of air based on fill pressure. If you fill them to rated pressure, the swing is different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Bryan
At this site - http://www.techdivinglimited.com/pub/tanks.html
Faber LP-95 2400 +10% 95 8 Triple 23.8 37.2 -1.2 -8.325
Faber FX-117 3442 117 8 Triple 24.91 38.9 0.16 -9.12
If my figuring is correct: when both are filled to 3600 psi the weights out of the water are about the same.
But the LP's are "heavier" in the water. The 3442 is an inch longer so I suppose that accounts for the heavy weight and lighter buoyancy.
Does anyone know if the bottoms of the 3442's carry higher than the LP's at full and half full?
If they are both filled to the same pressure, wouldn't the weight be equally different out of the water? Just like Russell pointed out, air weighs the same no matter what it's contained in.
Cylinder. Rating. Vol. Length. Dia. Dry weight. Full/empty
FX100DVB 3442 100 25.39 7.24 34.3 -8.41 / -0.59
L85DVB 2640 85 25.98 7.01 31.2 -3.80 / 2.32
This is from Blue Steel's site.
Oops,I was comparing 95's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Bryan
What's different in a cave that would make Fabers not ride high at the butt of the tank? They're going to ride high when you breathe them down no matter where you are. Take a look at the photos in the article I recently posted and jcook posted a link to - http://chipoladivers.com/2012/04/sidemount-cylinders/. The photos tell it all. Worthingtons don't do this.Quote:
Originally Posted by jxh2297
I think he is implying that most cave divers end their dives with a large enough volume of gas to prevent the lift.
Very good point. And other considerations - salt vs fresh, the weight of the valves, and fill pressure...assuming you dive to 1/3s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Bryan
Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
I was just assuming that in cave giving you wouldn't breathe them so low as to where they would ride up but I've never dove them so just speculation
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OK, I have dove both the Fabers and Worthingtons, and have a set of Worthingtons. Once in the water, I cant tell any difference. I would prefer the fabers, cause they are a bit lighter to carry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OFG-1
Thanks for the input
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I don't like worthington because they would not replace or somehow warrant (4) 120's that that were less than a year old and were rusting. My dive shop was pissed when worthington refused to even look at them.
That's funny - I also have a bad taste for Worthington because our shop got eight of them in in 2005, and every one had a lot of rust in the o-ring gland.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkdiver211
I'm guessing the ceiling of the cave... :smt102Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
Fabers start to roll at about 2200 psi. They get really bad at 1600 psi. While I end most of my dives with no less than 2000 psi I don't think that's the case for most cave divers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Bryan
My 72s pretty much do the same thing, but if I move the clips from the buttplate to the waist D-rings they trim out correctly again. It kind of sucks because they don't trim when clipped to the waist D-rings when the cylinders are full so I have to switch them durring the dive. It is kind of a pain, but it does work and on some dives the benifits of the 72s do outweigh the slight inconvenience of moving the clips. Someone I dive with pretty regularly does the same thing with his faber lp 85s and it works quite nicely. After he switches them to the waist D-rings, they trim out just as well as they did at the start of the dive.Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
I am used to doing that with AL80's so it would be nothing new if I go with Fabers. I am trying to decide on which steel tanks to buy now. Heck, I may just stick with AL80's for shorter/shallow dives since I am already quite used to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by floridakid
Not to hijack the thread, but...Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesK
When I started getting into technical diving I was really shocked at how much more gas you can cary in a steel tank compared to an AL 80 (hell, it still impresses me). What I find even more amazing is, for the most part, steel tanks are not much heavier than AL 80s when you consider the lead you will have to drag around with the AL 80s. It amazes me that even with giant tanks like LP 120s or HP 144s, the steel tanks are tiny and lightweight compared to the number of AL 80s you would have to drag around to have the same volume of gas. In fact, my steel 72s are lighter out of the water snd more negative in the water than AL 80s. At equal pressure my 72s hold a little more gas than the AL 80s and the 72s have a smaller diameter than AL 80s. Honestly, I am kind of shocked that they no longer make LP 72s anymore.
Oh, I agree. I feel steel is superior for main tanks, but then that means spending more money! I already have plenty of AL80's that I can throw two on and a stage, and have a nice dive. Either that or spend money on more tanks and a larger wing, since I only have a 20lb Zwing. Sigh..... I don't want to break down any of my doubled up 104's and those are just too dang big IMO. Sigh again..... I need to hit the lottery. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by floridakid
Amen on that , brother. You can never, NEVER, have too many steel tanks. I have SM heiser 45s for Suwanee Blue, USD SM 72s for Jug Hole, SM faber LP95s, SM coyne 95s, BM PST 95s, BM PST 120s, 2 O/W USD 72s, and another PST 72 dedicated to O2 deco and I will NEVER get rid of any of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesK
Lotto is not in my future.
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walking 15-20 min in the jungle will make the difference between AL and Steel, but ####, I wish we can have high pressure fills down here in DR.... would switch the al80 for lp85's...
I knew it was going to be a different kind of dive when we had parked at the edge of the jungle. German said, "We'll gear up hear and go for a bit of a walk in the jungle.". Just before setting of on our trek, he handed me a bottle of water, telling me to pour it on my head and in my wet suit. He said, "This will help ward off heat stroke."Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptuno
Really glad to have aluminum tanks that day!
I almost died the times I dove in manatee with my double 104's going down to the water from parking, imagine walking on sharp unstable rocks and jungle for 15 mins..... I love AL tanks... even when they don't hold much gas... just take more tanks :)
Or hire someone to carry them for you!
we do anyways, but we don't want them to die in the way and break the gear :)
That's very considerate of you
Doesn't work with Faber 85s. Because they are rolling and not floating like AL80s, they end up hanging below you if you reclip them. I've tried it.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesK
Look I have a set of pst 95's and faber 95's if you are just itchin to add to your vast and impressive collection.Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorCaver
Great. Thanks for smashing my hopes and dreams. LOL....Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
LP85s are my next purchase. Hence my reason for following this particular thread. Faber is winning the argument for me right now. Haven't heard much about PST LP85s, though. Are those available?Quote:
Originally Posted by OFG-1
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No, they made LP-80s. I have eight of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorCaver
(They later discontinued them and made E7-100s, which are essentially the same cylinder.)
Ok, time for me to get back on the interwebz and check out PST LP95s then. Though I said one could never, NEVER have too many steel tanks, that would be better qualified with the word "variety". Having 4 sets of different pairs of tanks is great, but 8 of one kind is not. I may have to help someone here unload a couple of PST LP80s...
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Four of them are two sets of doubles, and four are two pairs of sidemount - or can be used as open-water singles.Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorCaver
I have 33 cylinders total.
One can never have too many toys.
If you're including all sizes, I just counted and I'm at 34. I BEAT RUSSELL. Of course 5 sets of rebreather tanks and a couple of storage bottles give me a head start.
You folks need a support group. I only have around ten.
Wait a minute, I need a support group. A group willing to support my effort to get more. :)
I need about a dozen more tanks :(
If you count storage bottles (I have three) I'm at 36. :eleQuote:
Originally Posted by kwinter
Scuba gear or musical recording studio? Those two were my options 13 years ago. It is hard to have 2 very expensive hobbies at one time. Thus, I sold my guitars, keyboards, mixing boards, and 8 track recorder and replaced them with tanks, wings, DPVs and regulators.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Guns do not count as a "hobby" and their price is not factored in. I consider them a required staple, such as food.
FW- all you would have to do to get more tanks is sell that airplane!
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Do out of hydro condemned AL80 count? If so I have 20. Otherwise the count is only 14.
Dang it. Looks like I gotta pick up a few more 72s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Old Fat Guy, I need to get those HP-80s quickly! kwinter is gaining on me!
Darn, y'all are just to much for me! I only have 22 :( I'm such a girl.
I have considered that, but it took me 16 years to build. It is like having a child leave home...Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorCaver
Then your only recourse available is to make more money on the side by becoming a gigolo. Lot of retired widows with much disposable income in NFL. Those 12 tanks you need are just a couple of memorable nights of 'work' away from being a reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
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:roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorCaver
Ya, gotta plan for that zombie apocalypse. LOL. I don't get why everyone needs so many guns.Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorCaver
I would love to see the day when I could walk any street or alley in any big city and be 100% sure I would never be robbed. Until they day happens...Quote:
Originally Posted by jcook
There is your answer why so many guns are needed.
Ok, i'm done hijacking this thread. Now for a real question:
I like heavier tanks due to diving almost exclusively dry. So would PST 80s be a better solution than faber or worthington LP85s? Anybody use these tanks and notice a difference as far as bouyancy, trim, etc.?
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Ummm........ Forrest, the child leaving home is a GOOD thing. Something you look forward to and enjoy until she boomerangs back. :smt100Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Ill gladly adopt some of those kids if you ever need them out of the house, my lonely al80 needs a brother or sisterQuote:
Originally Posted by FW
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No such thing as PST 85s, but there are Worthington LP85s. Worthington LP85s work nicely as sidemount cylinders. They are a little heavier than Faber LP85s, but they stay in trim the entire dive.Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorCaver
Worthington LP85s would be a better solution than PST 80s if you're looking for something a little heavier. They also hold a lot more gas than HP80s.Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorCaver
Oh, and I have all of you beat on tank ownership.
2 121s
2 108s
10 95s
6 85s
2 72s
2 60s
2 AL100s
18 AL80s
4 AL40s
2 AL30s
2 AL13s
15 storage bottles
Picking up 17 more storage bottles in a few weeks.
So that's 24 steels, 28 ALs, and 32 storage bottles. 52 scuba cylinders and a total of 84 cylinders that are in use for scuba diving. And I'm looking for more!
Rob - You're starting to suffer from HPSBA. I refer you to Ted Green's post on TDS.
http://thedecostop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36594
A photo of just a portion of the master's setup from a few years ago. I'm sure its much bigger now. His home setup is the envy of every dive shop.
Does the term "tank envy" apply here :rollguy
They are talking about the PST LP80. Giselle had a set, but we sold them when she found some 95s. Now that she is SM, we are questioning that decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
Regardless, if PST had made LP85, they would have trimmed out similar to the Worthingtons anyways, since they are made using the same process which results in a thicker tank butt.
PST LP-80s are very negative compared to Fabers. I can dive a single with a 3mm full suit and no weight (in salt water). They are also much more abrasion-resistant compared to Fabers, which is why my instructor harped and harped about how hot-dilled galvanized cylinders are better in caves than zinc-sprayed.Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorCaver
From earlier posts, he is talking about LP-80s, which hold about 95% of what LP-85s hold.Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
As they can be used as a deco snack?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Sorry. It made me laugh so had to highlight. I'll go back to creeping around in the background.
Okay, I'm typing in a dark room, okay?
(The class is watching a video.)
I'm slowly moving in the direction of SM and I've got both PST 104's and PST 80's. From a SM perspective, how difficult would it be to trim out when switching between them?
You should not have much trouble switching between them. I was going between my PST 104s and some PST MP95 (weird tanks), without any changes in trim. I traded the MP95s in for some Worthington LP85, and don't expect difficulty with trim. I have not yet had a chance to dive the 85s.Quote:
Originally Posted by gasdiver
All you old people and your 2500 tanks...I only have 20 and even doing my own VIP/cleaning it costs too much
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I couldn't help it. I immediately pictured green pickle colored tanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Actually gave me a chuckle.
I'm feeling inadequate - I only have 19 tanks, and half of them are Tracy's.
Which one did you cut in half? :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by MORGAN
I haven't tried PST 80s, but I regularly switch between 104s and 85s, with no trim issues. The tank bands are in slightly different places, but that is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by gasdiver
How much more bottom time do you get out of the 104s?Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Quote:
Originally Posted by gasdiver
That's what I was wondering too. I typically bm 104s and am considering sm. Everybody loves their 85s for sm. I keep really thinking if the size of my 104s bm are really actually making me more of a gas hog than if I dove smaller tanks. I haven't even considered them for sm because I figured the size just wouldn't be compatible and my sac would suffer.
I don't bm them for the gas necessarily. I just really like the trim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gasdiver
Well, they're 22% bigger...
My HP 133 (basically the same tank) work great for sidemount, my RMV is a little.lower with smaller tanks, but not much.Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
You'll get more dive time out of the bigger tanks, but maybe not much more penetration distance, unless scootering.
:rollguyQuote:
Originally Posted by FW
The 19th one is an old OMS LP98 that I use to blow up tires, run the air impact wrench, etc. when I'm too far away from the compressor in my workshop. The ones in diving service are distributed evenly between Tracy and I.
I have that photo hanging in my shop. One day....one day....Quote:
Originally Posted by kwinter
It's a very individual call, based on body composition, thermal protection, and personal preference. Borrow or rent so you can try out both. I have both 85s and 108s. I love them both for different reasons/different dive types. In 85s and a wet suit, I feel like I'm gliding through the cave naked. In 108s and a drysuit, I'm trimmed out and weighted just right for a nice, long dive. Crossing up the combos doesn't work too well (108s too heavy with the wet suit, 85s too light with the drysuit).Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
Agreed. I plan to try multiple different tanks during and after Edd's class. So many people love their 85s due to trim so much and really don't see an issue with less gas that it makes me question if my 104s are a help or a hindrance. I love their trim but wonder if I threw a set of 85s or 100s on my back if I'd actually see more cave with less weight and drag.Quote:
Originally Posted by sskasser
Dive with Edd and you'l have to add HP 100's to your planning. I like HP tanks because sometimes I end up getting fills at other than cave shops, and not everyone will fill a LP tank to 3600
Is that his preference? Luckily I already have 85s and HP100s I was bringing with us, but made the assumption he'd probably be recommeding 95s. I think the 100s will likely work well for my girlfriend. She's short and very thin and I think the shorter length of Worthington HP100s may be an aid.
Edd uses hp100's most of the time and worth108's for trimix stuff. I use the exact same. I see more cave on hp100's than I previously did with faber 95's.Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
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Kind of my thoughts as far as the 104s. You mean I may actually not have to buy more gear for once?Quote:
Originally Posted by CaveMD