In an emergency, would you turn the dive or take a closer but unverified exit?

Did a dive in Orange Grove today, turning the dive at Challenge. Around 900 feet, the arrows flip direction, indicating that the next exit ahead is now closer. At around 500 feet to challenge, I started thinking - if I was to have a true emergency and needed to get out ASAP, which way would I go? I know my path backwards is verified but a lot further. I've been in the cave before, and feel pretty comfortable that I could get out there, assuming there aren't any broken gold lines or cave-ins I will have to contend with. Assuming the cave doesn't have any restrictions or major changes in depth ahead (so distance and non-verified line is the only thing I'm worried about) I think I'd have to be pretty close to the other exit to continue, instead of turning around.

What would you do?

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Originally Posted by Red Hat Jef

Did a dive in Orange Grove today, turning the dive at Challenge. Around 900 feet, the arrows flip direction, indicating that the next exit ahead is now closer. At around 500 feet to challenge, I started thinking - if I was to have a true emergency and needed to get out ASAP, which way would I go? I know my path backwards is verified but a lot further. I've been in the cave before, and feel pretty comfortable that I could get out there, assuming there aren't any broken gold lines or cave-ins I will have to contend with. Assuming the cave doesn't have any restrictions or major changes in depth ahead (so distance and non-verified line is the only thing I'm worried about) I think I'd have to be pretty close to the other exit to continue, instead of turning around.

What would you do?

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If it was a system I had never dived, I would calculate if I/we could reach the original entrance. If I didn't have enough gas, I would gamble on the closest entrance. What else could you do at that point?

The emergency..... needing to exit fast vs needing to exit. I was taught always go out the way you came in in these cases if possible. But if my buddy was having a seizure or some other medical emergency or loss of gas was significant and the difference in time was a factor..... it is a call I/we would have to make. Some systems, I may have passed a possible exit on the way in and could use those, maybe I am doing a traverse and am more than halfway, maybe the exit is 8 foot around with a 6 foot gator and 2 snakes playing in it...too many factors to make a hard fast statement.

But overall, I was taught go out the nearest KNOWN exit. Which is normally, where I came in.

If I knew the path to the next exit, knew it was closer, and knew we could get there, I'd go to the closer exit.

If I didn't know those things but could SEE the exit and that my route there was clear, I would consider going there, but not if the emergency was something which required getting someone out of the water, unless I knew that could be done at that exit.

I plan my gas to have enough to go back. Going back is the most certain exit.

You should be planning all your dives with enough gas to exit the way you came in. The only prudent thing to do is exit the way you came in. Keep this in mind - if you have not verified the exit how do you know the line will end in sight of natural light. What if the line ended 100' from from open water and around the corner from it. Let's look at Devil's as an example. From the beginning of the gold line you can't see natural light from either the Eye or the Ear. What if the end of that line you were gambling on was set up the same way? What if you chose to go toward the Eye and instead went into the Catacombs? Unless you can see natural light heading toward an unverified exit is too much of a gamble, under any circumstance.

Depends on the cave, my deco obligation, and the nature of the problem, and what resources I have available.

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Originally Posted by RN

You should be planning all your dives with enough gas to exit the way you came in. The only prudent thing to do is exit the way you came in. Keep this in mind - if you have not verified the exit how do you know the line will end in sight of natural light. What if the line ended 100' from from open water and around the corner from it. Let's look at Devil's as an example. From the beginning of the gold line you can't see natural light from either the Eye or the Ear. What if the end of that line you were gambling on was set up the same way? What if you chose to go toward the Eye and instead went into the Catacombs? Unless you can see natural light heading toward an unverified exit is too much of a gamble, under any circumstance.

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Great point!!!

the gold line in OG sits pretty far in as well and if you are not familiar and don't know you have to go this could end up problematic as well. No daylight anywhere close at the sign.

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Originally Posted by RN

You should be planning all your dives with enough gas to exit the way you came in. The only prudent thing to do is exit the way you came in. Keep this in mind - if you have not verified the exit how do you know the line will end in sight of natural light. What if the line ended 100' from from open water and around the corner from it. Let's look at Devil's as an example. From the beginning of the gold line you can't see natural light from either the Eye or the Ear. What if the end of that line you were gambling on was set up the same way? What if you chose to go toward the Eye and instead went into the Catacombs? Unless you can see natural light heading toward an unverified exit is too much of a gamble, under any circumstance.

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Well stated. The known is always a better gamble than the unknown.


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I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?irneoe

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Originally Posted by tflaris

Well stated. The known is always a better gamble than the unknown.

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Yup, I totally get it. The dives I did were all planned appropriately and with plenty of buffer for unplanned issues. That's not really what this poll is about.

I guess my point is basically backed up with the poll results - while the letter of the law is "turn and follow the verified line" I think many of us would make a different decision if faced with a tough situation.

If you left from Orange Grove, swam 1600 feet towards Challenge where the arrow says 200 feet to air at Challenge, and then you or your buddy had a very serious problem, what would you do? It's really hard for me to justify NOT heading the last 200 feet - but it's totally a risk versus reward issue. It's about 2-4 minutes out to Challenge, but it's likely 15-30 minutes out to Orange Grove. I could see a case where this would be the difference between life and death.

I guess it depends to some extent on what is meant by verified. In the places I commonly dive where there's more than one choice of exits, (Peacock, Manatee, Madison) I know all the potential exits and plan my dive and emergency plans accordingly. My gas planning is always based on going out the way I came in, unless I'm planning a traverse. But at any given point in the dive, I know where the nearest bail-out point is in case things go really bad. I may not have verified that Challenge Sink is still there on the day of the dive, but I'm familiar with it and am willing to bet that it's still there if I need it.

It would be different in a less familiar system that had multiple potential exits, some of which I knew and some I didn't, like some of the big systems in the Yucatan. I'd be much more likely to exit the way I came in or at least by a familiar exit if I needed to, rather than trust an exit I'd never seen and whose presence was known to me only by a map or by line arrows pointing toward the theoretically closest exit. In that case I'd be willing to swim quite a bit farther to get to an exit I knew.

Even if you pick choices #1,#2.... or #5 as your answer,it is critical that your buddy have the same choice,or discussed before getting in the water. Exit during an emergency can be complicated if one plans to go ahead,while the other wants to return to the original exit.

I think it also depends on the nature of the emergency. If someone is going to need medical help, it might be quicker to go to the opening at Challenge, but to climb out and get help might take longer than swimming back to OG where there is usually another team close by or at least your cell phones to call for help.

You left out the old Navy tried and true method of dealing with emergencies:

When in danger;
When in doubt;
Run in circles;
Scream and shout

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Originally Posted by deepdiverbob

I think it also depends on the nature of the emergency. If someone is going to need medical help, it might be quicker to go to the opening at Challenge, but to climb out and get help might take longer than swimming back to OG where there is usually another team close by or at least your cell phones to call for help.

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Again, that's only if you know what Challenge is like. By unverified exit, I take it to mean I've never been there and don't know where the line ends in relation to the daylight zone. While the line does end in OW at Challenge, I only know that because I've been there, making it a verified exit.

When in doubt follow the rules.

I think the nature of the emergency would dictate the choice.

If I have enough gas to get back to where I started, then I'm going that way.

If I think I don't have enough gas to get back, due to loss of gas, dislocated knee, whatever, then I'll do what I need to get out.

They say a coward dies a thousand deaths . . . I'm a horrendous chicken, and the thought of swimming in the direction of an unverified exit in an emergency, only to discover that there's a restriction I can't pass, or that the passage goes deep enough that the gas I thought was enough turns out not to be, is so vivid and so horrible that I'll stick to what I was taught. Only if I can SEE my way out am I going anywhere where I don't know what things are like. And in some situations, finding yourself with an unlimited air supply isn't the entirety of the answer -- if you can't get up onto land from where you've ended up, you're not a whole lot better off than you were when the issue started.

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Originally Posted by RN

You should be planning all your dives with enough gas to exit the way you came in. The only prudent thing to do is exit the way you came in. Keep this in mind - if you have not verified the exit how do you know the line will end in sight of natural light. What if the line ended 100' from from open water and around the corner from it. Let's look at Devil's as an example. From the beginning of the gold line you can't see natural light from either the Eye or the Ear. What if the end of that line you were gambling on was set up the same way? What if you chose to go toward the Eye and instead went into the Catacombs? Unless you can see natural light heading toward an unverified exit is too much of a gamble, under any circumstance.

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Rob,
Very good point, If I could I would change my poll response. That is a good comparison. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by RN

You should be planning all your dives with enough gas to exit the way you came in. The only prudent thing to do is exit the way you came in. Keep this in mind - if you have not verified the exit how do you know the line will end in sight of natural light. What if the line ended 100' from from open water and around the corner from it. Let's look at Devil's as an example. From the beginning of the gold line you can't see natural light from either the Eye or the Ear. What if the end of that line you were gambling on was set up the same way? What if you chose to go toward the Eye and instead went into the Catacombs? Unless you can see natural light heading toward an unverified exit is too much of a gamble, under any circumstance.

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I'm pretty sure you can see light from the Ear but not the Eye at the beginning/end of the gold line. (if it's daylight :-p)

When I read this original question, I was thinking of a system like Peacock where there are numerous exit points. I may not have been to every one of them, but that's a well discussed system and I very well have talked in detail about what might become an emergency route out. Yes, there might be some doubt of the 100% safety of the route out, but then there's always some danger. I mean there could have been a collapse on your original route. Likely--no. Possible--yes. So while I agree that you should follow the rules and blah, blah, blah, I can well imagine a scenario where you want the NEAREST EXIT!

Here's my story. One day I make this very, very fun dive to Waterhole with FW and Carl. Great, fun, relaxing dive. Good air consumption for me.

Next day, FW has left and Neil is now joining Carl and me. We're short of time before Peacock closes and we simple plan a dive from the main entrance to Olsen and return. Something I've done many times. Well, something is not right this time. Carl takes off like a bat out of hell. Weird, since we dove so well together the day before. Neil's plenty far ahead, too. What's with these guys? Neil turns around and gives me an "OK" signal. Nope, I am not returning it. We are just a little more strung out than what I feel comfortable enough to let them think all is "OK."

Finally I figure it out. My right fin is coming off. I find a (rare) rock that I feel like I won't be destroying the cave environment if I kick against. I shove my foot back into the fin properly and within 2 strokes, it's back all floppy. WTH? At this point, I see by the arrows, that Olsen is closer than the main entrance and that is WHERE I'M GOING! We pop our heads up, discuss the situation, and I discover that I hadn't used fin keepers like I normally do, the zipper on my bootie went down, and that was why my foot wouldn't stay in the fin. We sort that out (albeit w/o the fin keeper) and return without incident to the main entrance.

I swear, if I die in a cave it's gonna be due to a fin issue. I've had problems with the attachment of spring straps as non-original equipment (I finally decided I will no longer dive fins that don't have springs as original manufacturer equipment).

My point to all this is, sure, *normally* we dive our plan and keep an extra third (maybe more) of gas for emergencies. Normally, we can exit the way we come and all is well. Theoretically, that makes sense for a gas issue (isn't that what we think is most critical?). But a progressive fin problem can be much, much more dangerous. What you could have exited safely on reserve gas may not at all be sufficient if you can't swim at the rate you went in at.

There are any number of ways this scenario could come into play. It could be from a progressive fin failure. It could be from something much worse than happened to me. It could have been a non-recoverable fin failure (because, theoretically on my actual dive, I could have stopped in the cave, discovered my zipper was down and fixed it by myself on the way in--though in reality I didn't). I could have lost a pin into the silt that had held the strap on the fin. What if your buddy had a weird accident and injured his leg? Had a weird medical thing--leg cramp that just wouldn't resolve or something. Could you pull him out?

Earlier on in my cave diving journeys, I thought I was getting into a OOG emergency in Peacock (turns out I wasn't, but I was concerned), and suddenly all that good theory, wasn't working so well for me.

So, it's not likely to happen, but I've had enough (and varied) fin and other problems that I can envision where I want that nearest exit. In a cave like Peacock, there's a good chance that my buddy has been to that entrance that I haven't. We may have talked about that entrance. Or I've talked about it with someone else. So, no it's not 100%, but that's where I'm going during my emergency.

I do think Kelly has an important point. You better have a good way to sort things out with your buddy during said emergency so you don't waste precious time arguing, or going opposite ways.

I wondered while typing this up this morning if this was going to make it appear that I was dissing my buddies. I do not mean to. I would dive with either of them again. But I'll type this up to clarify a response I got by PM.

First off, I think the fantastic dive the day before (in addition to a few other fine dives) meant that we were in the mindset of "we dive well together and we have no problems." At least that's the way *I* thought. Second off, I did NOT signal my buddies that I was having a problem. I didn't respond with an OK, but nor did I give any signal to indicate that I had a problem. Most of the time I don't swim side by side with my buddies, but I won't dive people if they ditch their buddies, either. Third off, (well this affected my second off, too).... this was an escalating problem. So while what seemed fairly reasonable at one point, became more problematic with time. Fourth off, this happened several years ago, and I am sure I am not recalling things exactly as they happened--well all the details anyway. I believe I am correct in what I wrote, but that it probably has some gaps in what all happened. Fifth off, I believe Carl did specifically attempt to solve my problem before we went to Olsen, but my memory is fuzzy on that. I am relating the part of the incident that sticks in my mind with respect to me, under certain circumstances, that would make me willing to exit an unconfirmed exit. I *think* that Carl tried to re-attach my fin, but the problem was the zipper going down and without Carl crawling between my legs (!!), he probably wouldn't have seen that.

To repeat, I have no complaints of my buddies. Under different circumstances, had I known that "hey, I have a fin problem." I would have signaled them, they would have waited, offered to assist, etc. I have another buddy who specifically says that he doesn't overly offer to help because some people don't like others butting in (unless the person asks for help). Indeed, I've become pissed at people who monkey with me and my gear without my permission/request.

And this is perhaps my overall point. What comes across as a cut and dried "follow the rules" argument, doesn't always work that way in real life.

And finally, to make it clear to the person who PMed, me.... When I said Carl took off like a bat out of hell. No, he didn't. He swam at the same rate as we'd swum together the day before. I was me who was swimming abnormally slowly with no apparent reason. I *thought* I was swimming at the day before's rate. It was only when the fin became nearly useless, that I realized *I* was the problem.

It depends where you are in Devil's on whether you can see light from the Ear or not. If you are on the line at the stop sign I don't believe it's visible. You have to move to the left (when facing the exit) to see daylight. I might be wrong here as I don't dive Devil's all that often, but from the few dozen dives I've done there I don't remember daylight being all that obvious until pulling the reel and swimming toward it.

Also, I agree about Peacock. Some of the lines there end up in daylight or OW - Peacock, Olsen, Challenge. But step away from the known and think of this from the unknown. That's how I responded. If I had an issue 200' from Olsen, I'd exit Olsen. But I've been there and know the route of the line. But if I was 200' from Sheck Sink, my decision would be to go back to the entrance I started from.

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Originally Posted by RN

It depends where you are in Devil's on whether you can see light from the Ear or not....

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You can see it, but it doesn't stand out like it does at Peacock, or Jackson Blue. If you were new to the system, and in a panic, it would be easy to miss. Pretty easy to see with your light out, but that is probably the last thing you would want to do if you were making an emergency exit.

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Originally Posted by RN

.................................Also, I agree about Peacock. Some of the lines there end up in daylight or OW - Peacock, Olsen, Challenge. But step away from the known and think of this from the unknown. That's how I responded. If I had an issue 200' from Olsen, I'd exit Olsen. But I've been there and know the route of the line. But if I was 200' from Sheck Sink, my decision would be to go back to the entrance I started from.

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This is the part that bothers me. It seems that everybody is thinking that a system like Peacock, that they have been in many times and know very well, is safe to proceed to the next available exit. They are thinking that since they have been to this opening many times that it is still the same and is accessable.

Think about this: No exit is verified unless you were just there. Caves can and do change. In an emergency is not going to be the best time to find that an opening has collapsed or that the line is broken.

I have to stick with my training and say to exit the same way that I came in.

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Originally Posted by RN

It depends where you are in Devil's on whether you can see light from the Ear or not. If you are on the line at the stop sign I don't believe it's visible. You have to move to the left (when facing the exit) to see daylight. I might be wrong here as I don't dive Devil's all that often, but from the few dozen dives I've done there I don't remember daylight being all that obvious until pulling the reel and swimming toward it.

Also, I agree about Peacock. Some of the lines there end up in daylight or OW - Peacock, Olsen, Challenge. But step away from the known and think of this from the unknown. That's how I responded. If I had an issue 200' from Olsen, I'd exit Olsen. But I've been there and know the route of the line. But if I was 200' from Sheck Sink, my decision would be to go back to the entrance I started from.

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I know I've seen daylight from the Ear while at the sign, though it could have been while retrieving my deco bottle. Exactly where, I don't recall, but it was basically at the sign.

In general, I would want to return the way I came. If I were turning my dive for a "mild" emergency, it would be a no brainer. But I still maintain that what's easy to say on an internet forum may be completely different in a serious cave emergency. If you're 200 feet from an unverified entrance and 1600 from your start and you have a complete fin failure where you don't think you can fin back all that to where you started at the speed you're now going -- significantly slower than what you started -- I think most people would strongly consider and actually go to that close entrance.

Yes, you're taking a risk with the unverified entrance (something not to be taken lightly). But IMHO, under a few cases, I think it's a much bigger risk trying to get out. Are you going to rely on your buddy's gas? If so, what if he has a problem? Which is the bigger risk? The unverified, but highly likely other entrance or that your buddy won't have a problem (you didn't, what makes you think they won't?).

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Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

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In general, I would want to return the way I came. If I were turning my dive for a "mild" emergency, it would be a no brainer. But I still maintain that what's easy to say on an internet forum may be completely different in a serious cave emergency. If you're 200 feet from an unverified entrance and 1600 from your start and you have a complete fin failure where you don't think you can fin back all that to where you started at the speed you're now going -- significantly slower than what you started -- I think most people would strongly consider and actually go to that close entrance.

Yes, you're taking a risk with the unverified entrance (something not to be taken lightly). But IMHO, under a few cases, I think it's a much bigger risk trying to get out. Are you going to rely on your buddy's gas? If so, what if he has a problem? Which is the bigger risk? The unverified, but highly likely other entrance or that your buddy won't have a problem (you didn't, what makes you think they won't?).

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I have to respectfully disagree with you. You keep bringing up the loss of a fin, not that big of a deal, I have finished a dive without one of my fins. Not a fast or a pretty as usual, but completely doable. You can only plan on so many failures and there is a point when you need to just stay home. Do you really think that with still having 2/3 of your gas supply that you can not make the swim back out? Are you and you buddy both going to have gas failures at the same time?

Rely on what your training tells you and you will survive. Breaking rules can and will get people killed. I know that this all about the risk/reward aspect of it, but I don't want any new cave divers to start getting the wrong ideas.

If I thumb the dive and you want to go further in to the next exit, the next signal you will get from me is one with my middle finger and my thumb (f**k you, I am out of here).

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Originally Posted by Dsix36

I have to respectfully disagree with you. You keep bringing up the loss of a fin, not that big of a deal, I have finished a dive without one of my fins. Not a fast or a pretty as usual, but completely doable. You can only plan on so many failures and there is a point when you need to just stay home. Do you really think that with still having 2/3 of your gas supply that you can not make the swim back out? Are you and you buddy both going to have gas failures at the same time?

Rely on what your training tells you and you will survive. Breaking rules can and will get people killed. I know that this all about the risk/reward aspect of it, but I don't want any new cave divers to start getting the wrong ideas.

If I thumb the dive and you want to go further in to the next exit, the next signal you will get from me is one with my middle finger and my thumb (f**k you, I am out of here).

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+1 !

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Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

I know I've seen daylight from the Ear while at the sign, though it could have been while retrieving my deco bottle. Exactly where, I don't recall, but it was basically at the sign.

In general, I would want to return the way I came. If I were turning my dive for a "mild" emergency, it would be a no brainer. But I still maintain that what's easy to say on an internet forum may be completely different in a serious cave emergency. If you're 200 feet from an unverified entrance and 1600 from your start and you have a complete fin failure where you don't think you can fin back all that to where you started at the speed you're now going -- significantly slower than what you started -- I think most people would strongly consider and actually go to that close entrance.

Yes, you're taking a risk with the unverified entrance (something not to be taken lightly). But IMHO, under a few cases, I think it's a much bigger risk trying to get out. Are you going to rely on your buddy's gas? If so, what if he has a problem? Which is the bigger risk? The unverified, but highly likely other entrance or that your buddy won't have a problem (you didn't, what makes you think they won't?).

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Finning with one fin isn't that difficult. It's not as fast, but I can swim almost as fast. If you still have the fin in hand, you can also use it as a makeshift paddle. Been there and done that.

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Originally Posted by RN

Finning with one fin isn't that difficult. It's not as fast, but I can swim almost as fast. If you still have the fin in hand, you can also use it as a makeshift paddle. Been there and done that.

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Jet fins make a half way decent shovel in a sand/mud restriction as well.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by RN

Finning with one fin isn't that difficult. It's not as fast, but I can swim almost as fast. If you still have the fin in hand, you can also use it as a makeshift paddle. Been there and done that.

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Well, maybe my cave diving instructor didn't train me well enough at one finned swimming, but my buddies wound up going a LOT faster than I did. The second incident where it happened was in open water and I'll skip the long series of other problems that happened on that dive, but while swimming, I was MUCH slower. In the open water, I had clipped off my fin (maybe not the best idea, but given the other problems and that I was near to shore, that's what I did). I entered a current where I was getting swashed away and swam with all my might (and arms) and actually made some progress. My buddy grabbed my arm, pulled me out of the current... and then let go. :-p It wasn't too far to shore at that point, but I was ever so much slower than he was.

I think we all know that it's a cascade of issues that are the serious problems, and boy did that dive have 'em! When it's just one thing, many/most problems are handle-able. When they cascade, then you've got your hands full.

When Rich Courtney was still working at Cave Excursions East, he and I had a discussion while he was filling my tanks that began with how we would handle a jump which would require team separation if performed "by the book." Doug Mudry had asked me my opinion earlier on the matter and I decided to take up the topic with Rich. That lead to all manner of "What if's" regarding a host of other procedures. In the end, Rich provided the two words that I find myself employing the most in my cave diving and when teaching others. Those words are, "It depends."

That day, Rich elevated himself to be included among the greatest minds of all time in my book. He assumed his rightful place alongside a college professor who addressed the fact that education often means sacrificing learning for grades and a former Navy UDT frogman, working as a security guard, who counseled me that as I live my life, I will probably come to realize that the grass will always be greenest over the septic tank.

Would I exit a cave from an unverified exit? It depends.

What is the nature of the emergency? Is it life-threatening to a teammate or student? Will a different route allow for better medical evacuation of a bent or unconscious diver? Are we out of gas? Is everything working or have we lost lights, bottles, etc? Have I been through the exit before, but just not recently? What are the chances there has been a collapse compared to our chances for not making it back on our original path? Have I actually exited there or just assume I can fit? For example, how many of us have actually tried to surface through Pothole or just think we can because there is an up arrow there telling us emergency exit only? Would a different path catch the express train of outward flow better than the return path? Is my return path a series of more complex directional changes when another route would provide a more direct swim home? Would a different route be more favorable for reducing a decompression obligation on back gas? Would a different route be more favorable for a gas sharing exit? So many factors would contribute to making a decision that would go against the "rule book" that all I could say is, "It depends."

Two of my favorite teaching situations are to put students in an OOG after they have run line through the catacombs in Ginnie's Devil's System to see if they'll go back through or just take the gold line out and to hit them with an OOG along with a non-fixable failure of the donor's tanks after they cross the mid-point of the run between Pothole and Olsen in Peacock Springs. The latter I normally do after making the traverse to Olsen. Are they going to continue toward Pothole (an exit they haven't been out) and hope to make the 500 feet from there out P1, or will they turn back toward Olsen, the shortest way out at that point, but on the "wrong" side of the arrows. When are they right or wrong? It depends.

That's why I teach my students, "When in doubt follow the rules." But, if you know better, you must be willing to live or die with that decision.

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Originally Posted by TraceMalin

...That's why I teach my students, "When in doubt follow the rules." But, if you know better, you must be willing to live or die with that decision.

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:supz:

I was taught:

Admit nothing
Deny everything
When accused make counter-accusations

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

You left out the old Navy tried and true method of dealing with emergencies:

When in danger;
When in doubt;
Run in circles;
Scream and shout

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