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So I read a book about the history of the CDG and in it it clearly states that dry cavers in the UK and france have on several occasions used dynamite to blast open a passage when a survey shows a close connection but no natural one exists.
What is the rationale with this? I don't really get it, but then again I am not a dry caver.
The rationale...? The heck if I know!! Maybe just to say there is now a connection, they are too lazy to find the natural connection, or just because they're French (I don't like the French...). Sounds like the dry cavers became miners by blasting tunnels underground. The whole point of being in caves, above water or below water, should be to enjoy their natural beauty. There are plenty of old mines to take tours of... No need to make new ones of your own.
It's a matter of degree. In MX I clearly saw numerous places where cave formations were broken to allow room for divers to pass into going sections of cave. In fact in the recent calimba video posted here (where someone commented on the video subject "breaking" a formation - which looked a lot more like moving an already loose short stalagmite) that area of the system contains a few such "windows" that were created. Unfortunately if you loo around you'll also see other such windows that looked promising but apparently did not lead to going sections of cave, but that obviously was not evident at the time. In N FL it's not uncommon to dig here and there and if you read up on the history of P3 it's evident that divers dug through the sand slides on the main line and in the parallel line, opening up the entire back half of the cave.
So...in that regard, the use of a little dynamite, while on the extreme end of the scale, is not much different in terms of overall intent, although it clearly roars right past any modern day limits we have from a conservation perspective.
Didn't Sheck bash out the Lips with a scuba tank?
Although yes I agree breaking decorations is a big time no no, if it opens up another 15km of cave beyond I understand the rationale behind that, like everyone else on occasion I have moved rocks around and dug a little while exploring to see if it keeps going.
What I do not understand is that if no natural connection exists between two cave systems and it is a known fact why dynamite a cave to create one?
On the "other side of the coin" the idiots here in Florida used to dynamite caves to keep us out. Morrison is an example of going to the extreme!
I would say a tool that comes with a price but might open up possibilities.
We are blasting several miles of tunnels through mountains so people get quicker to the destination, it makes travel safer and so on. Our ancestors carved caves/ homes into limestone and we now admire those places of civilization. There are cave explorations that I know of where boring has been used to shortcut several miles in order to keep exploration going and bypassing the wet area of the cave/ sump (Blautopf).
Why not? sometimes a little bit of damage is necessary and worth it. I'm sure you caused some damage by breaking things, digging in the sand or whatever to explore further. Every move we do comes with a price. Nothing against preservation of caves but sometimes I think we take it a bit too far. Might it be early cave drawings or mining/ tunneling or even diving in caves, this all takes toll on the system, some more some less. Some people pump out sand to create / open up a cave under water, some lower the water level. If you ever experience what fractioning, coal mining or others (salt, lime....) really does, that little damage that is done by blasting of an opening is an itch that you don't even scratch.
First of all building tunnels below mountains and mining have absolutely nothing to do with exploring caves.
Yes I have done damage to caves, like every single cave diver I have broken stalactites by mistake (and every single one of you have without exception) and yes I have also moved rocks around and dug a little to see if a cave continues, however if I know for a fact that no natural connection between two systems exists I will under no circumstances try to create one.
I agree that a little bit of damage such as a small bore hole to open up major new passages is I suppose acceptable (I would not do it but I understand), but dynamiting caves (I am not talking about mining but exploring caves) is way too extreme, I thought we were supposed to preserve the fragile cave environment.
I also agree 100% that Taino indians or prehistoric man were defacing caves by drawing, carving or painting on the cave walls (this is exactly the same as a kid with a spray can only 1000 years ago), the Taino indians were littering big time in the caves here and in some entrances there are more broken pieces of pottery that rocks. It just seems interesting today for archeological purposes but it is really just plain littering really.
But still dynamiting caves to create a connection were one does not exist makes absolutely no sense to me at all.
You've provided your own answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by phillip1
You understand the rationale for breaking some decorations to, in effect, re-open a natural connection, or at least make it large enough to get a diver through the connection in order to open up a significant portion of cave.
How is that different than using dynamite to connect two nearby passages that don't have a known connection large enough to let a diver through?
Explosives are used from time to time to enlarge restrictions or break up rocks blocking access to otherwise open passages. Only on very rare occasions are mining techniques used to tunnel through solid rock - usually to provide a bypass to another route to the same place which might be vulnerable (by virtue of cave formations) or dangerous (loose rock). Caver's are not making their own caves - mearely making natural ones accessable to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by phillip1
It is an emotive subject but the minimum amounts of "chemical persuasion" are used, usually when manual techniques (a hammer and chisel) have failed. The aquisition, transport and storage of explosives are tightly controlled in many juristictions.
Maybe I can dynamite my way into the connection between lower orange grove, the crypt and henlys castle today.
You misunderstand my point entirely, what I am saying is if there are two known and mapped cave systems separated by a few meters of rock with no connection that makes no sense, if breaking a few decorations is required to gain access to another few kilometers of unexplored and unmapped cave then I can understand (I would not actually break a hole personally but I understand).Quote:
Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster
Since we don't have the particular - - some conjecture as to why this might happen could be that such a connection would cut off significant hours of travel time to another system or part of the system. Such as someone finding a sinkhole matching it up with data and realizing that it would save 5,10,15(etc) hrs of time,effort (risk?) in getting to the underlying system if they could get it to connect (if only that one boulder wasn't in the way). The sinkhole is "known" and the other system is "known" the "why" all becomes situational dependent.Quote:
Originally Posted by phillip1
I suspect what was written could make it sound like "willy nilly" just for fun rock removal was taking place, I'm sure or at least hopeful that was and is not the case. Particularly with the effort required to do so... it just wouldn't make sense.
Yes, that's exactly correct. Phillip, two of the main entrances to the Roppel, and Mammoth Cave systems are man made (if not more, in that I've only used these two). The Wellar Entrance was actually the top of a rather tall dome room, before Dave Wellar purchased the property, and they proceeded to blast the top of the dome, and install the ladders we all use to get to that section of the cave. It's still four to five good hours of caving to get to the Logsdon River. In Mammoth, the Doyle Entrance is completely man made, using a 30" coring drill, and then installing culvert metal to hold the walls of the coring in place. This entrance shaves another 10 hours off of walking in the river to reach the closest access to Toohey Ridge. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that we've been doing it for a while in caving.Quote:
Originally Posted by d_berman
I kind of understand and see your point, but then again you dry cavers are a much more hardcore bunch that us lazy as$ cave divers, 99.9% of cave divers would not walk 15 mins (or complain profusely) in the jungle to access a cave, let alone dry cave. Actually every time I dive I wonder how insanely hard it would be to explore the caves if they were dry.
Same here. A 15 minute DPV dive to the Henkel in Ginnie would take you at least an hour if it were dry.Quote:
Originally Posted by phillip1
And every time I go up to TAG I always picture the caves if they were filled with water. Most would require tri-mix but a few like Bluff River in Alabama would be pretty shallow and an awesome DPV trip.
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And why would you want to? :smt102Quote:
Originally Posted by phillip1
:rollguy