I guess I'm spoiled by Trimix ... but went to a cave in Exuma, Bahamas and it just kept going deeper and deeper so I turned at 140 ft.
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I guess I'm spoiled by Trimix ... but went to a cave in Exuma, Bahamas and it just kept going deeper and deeper so I turned at 140 ft.
0ft, if I don't have time to plan the dive properly I can wait. I would come back with a buddy and proper gas mix.
Good idea to turn at 140....My personal rule is that in a cave I will have an END of 100 ffw or less.
I'd thumb a solo air cave dive at the fill station.
Veto.
100'.
+1. If that makes me a cave wimp, so be it.Quote:
Originally Posted by PfcAJ
Air is no longer an underwater breathing gas, period.
Exuma has 2 diveshops, with nothing else but air.
I was even that naive that I thought I was going to use my CCR here ;)
You say that until you go CCR, then it's an easy diluent.Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
I did 140 on air diluent, once.
What if there is no info about the cave ... ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
That really doesn't solve the buddy situation, but assuming I had a buddy, I would more than likely go to 115ft or so. I'm young, I've got several more years to see this stuff, and the thought of drowning underwater is the biggest rational fear I have. I'll do anything I can do to avoid it, even if that means passing up some cave.Quote:
Originally Posted by OH
I have done some deep wreck dives on air but i have never been in the caves with just air. all depths i hit on air were under the watchful eye of a trimix instructor,do the dive on air write notes of the dive on surface intervals then repeat with mixed gases.. a slight difference :-)
What's this "air" you speak of?
I'm a big fan of diving alone but not of breathing air maybe 80-100' or so but I haven't been on OC for over 10 years.
Probably not more than 240, it would depend on the conditions in the cave.
I've seen people that say that get narked past 60' and don't like to go deeper on air. I've had people that state they never get narked even past 130', at least that's what they say. I think medical wise past 100' pretty much everyone is narked, just everyone behaves different.
If cave is tight silty and whatever it might be a different story than a big room where you can easily get up when it hits, I would be careful going into a small passage.
I've dived with 'old timers' who dive air to depths I would not. In all my observations of them while diving (me using mix), they were on point. I was amazed and after one dive commented to that fact. The reply was simple, "It's all about repetition, there's no skill involved." He's right, you can acclimate. I wonder if past deep air accidents have been in part due to too deep too fast.
I know this thread is about solo diving (which I advocate), but it's also about deep diving caves on air.
160 feet
Did a 185' ocean dive on air once. Was a dumb choice that I will never repeat. Theses days I'm with a64pilot air has no place in a scuba tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
Did you do any work up dives? Just curious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azchipka
Not taking solo diving into account, isn't deep dives on air in caves one of the big no no in the 5 rules?
Goodlifedivers.com
[QUOTE=Azchipka;181703]Did a 185' ocean dive on air once. Was a dumb choice that I will never repeat.
I'm curious what was the problem?? not being a smartass, I've been there with no ill effects... closely monitored though
Not for NACDQuote:
Originally Posted by ffdiver5597
Funny Curt ;o)
I guess if it was a "eagles nest" like a cave, maybe.
Huge room to come up in and loose the narcosis before you have to deal with "how to get through this hole to get out".
But again - I like myself ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Bowen
I did a 200Ft on air in OW.
And I don't think I would want to repeat it any more ...
I'm very thankful for Trimix
and very thankful for my CCR so I don't need much of it ;o)))
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azchipka
Yes the old days of Deep Nest downstream dives through the 302' pit restriction on air were crazy. I remember once only concentrating on "follow the line stupid" kick "follow the line" kick "o-right the line" kick "I could take a nap right here" kick "line? o its in my hand" kickQuote:
Originally Posted by OH
I won't even go to 100 feet in a cave any more without helium. I've had two very, very sobering experiences with recognizing that I am just dull and unable to interpret data at that depth. (I was on Nitrox, but I don't think the narcosis issues are any different.) I don't solo in caves, or anywhere else, but even with a buddy, I know that I am not a capable team member at 100 feet with helium, so I will not do it any more. (This is actually impacting my diving, as I don't see Florida as a viable destination now unless my budget is generous.)
I have conducted several narc experiments... in clear water.. 185 no problem... silt out in way less than 100... dopey giddy and disoriented... so in a cave situation...Idon't play... in 100% viz I'm good...but who can garuntee that 100% viz will ever last??
Been there, done that, wouldn't even think of doing it since they invented helium :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by Curt Bowen
The worst part is you are still narced when you first get back to the surface.
No deeper than 100' on air diluent, but as long as helium is available trimix is the dill of choice. It is just nice to have a totally clear head when diving, monitering a ccr, and dealing with an overhead environment especially when solo.
Gabe
I'm haven't been diving nearly as long as some, but it used to be considered that on a first dive you couldn't hurt yourself with a single steel 72, that is you can go as deep as you like, you don't have enough air to get into deco, so as a young dumb kid, I went pretty deep, basically bounce dives with only a couple of minutes bottom time. I have never been Narced, not so as I have noticed and that's what scares me because I know I was affected, just somehow or another I guess I can get stupid drunk before I notice?Quote:
Originally Posted by Boru
I've considered trying a "light" tri-mix in one tank in JB for instance just to see if I could tell any difference between the two, anybody done that?
Maybe part of what I like about diving is a little narcosis? Seriously now, no kidding, but maybe a little narcosis is partly why some enjoy it and some don't? Not everybody is a happy drunk?
Rule #4, END of 130'.Quote:
Originally Posted by ffdiver5597
I knew I wasnt crazy or narc'ed when I remembered that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
I love this. LOL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Superlyte27
How deep would I go on air?
First, define, what is on the bottom that I am going to recover? Gold?
Ha! Very good description of narced Curt!Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Bowen
Never did any 'cave' past 110' on air since i have been certified....
In the 80's and 90's did plenty of deep air ocean and wreck dives, a few down to 250'. I did a lot of OW 'deep' & wreck classes in cold poopy water and I got to see dozens of folks get narc'ed.
Also in the late 80's did about 170- 200 (have to check logs) through a sulfide layer in a bule hole in bahamas that was pretty much overhead at that point.
Yes, some people can acclimate better then others. Water temp and visibility could have a significant effect on narcosis. The other biggie is WORK, which is not a good thing. In my personal experience a sudden or even gradual increase in effort could send you way over the top instantly, again environmental conditions matter.
That is bad. Just when you need to react to something or have an increased breathing rate from a stressful inicdent or work you lose the functionality of your best tool - your brain.
Personally I would not recommend anything past 100', less if work or silt involved.
Do you have your breather tanks? What is in them? Anything you can use to PP fill an OC tank to reduce your END?
And if you can bring those tanks, why don't you just fill them with what you need for PP fills?
It's a colorless, odorless gas also known as EANx21 or Normoxic Nitrox. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Superlyte27
The deepest I've been on air in a cave was 150 feet in Hendley's Castle, but I wasn't solo. I remember feeling warm and fuzzy and comfortable and happy and stupid, as if my IQ had dropped a couple of dozen points. Won't do that again.
I hear people saying air is not a breathable scuba gas anymore. So you say nitrox/ trimix only, don't think a 22% or 23% nitrox helps much on a deep dive, just getting to close to a1.4- 1.6 on deep dives.
On a another note, do people stay with max 1.4 Po2 or how much do you allow on a short dip to the deepest point of the dive? Obviously some deep air dives mentioned go past 1.4.
I don't really like to dive solo :P
People say they wern't narced makes me think of drunks who say I am not drunk. By definition narcosis can make you think inaccurate thoughts. I have been to 130 fet on air in cold (38 degree) dark water. Did not feel drunk, warm or fuzzy. And I would say I was not narced. But on the other hand I have done some work for a resort, solo, 60 feet deep. zero vis, brush and garbage infested water, removing cable clamps off of anchor blocks. Same temp. Before the dive I was considering the wisdom of doing the job at all. Down there I remember thinking, What was I worried about? This is a piece of cake. And I was functioning well. I need three different wrenches to do the job. And had no trouble completing the task. Was aware that some of the cables would give you a ride when they came loose, especialy If my glove was snaged on a splinter. But I have always remembered how much braver I felt down there and considered that maybe it was not a good thing.
" Gods Gas" to quote friendsQuote:
Originally Posted by Superlyte27
Have you ever heard of anyone toxing on it?
I did Hendley's castle all the way down on my CCR with air in my dil tank.
BELIEVE ME - I WILL NEVER DO IT AGAIN!!!
I was not solo there either btw.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MORGAN
Mike has been waiting a year to use that term!Quote:
Originally Posted by MORGAN
I was just gonna say, WHO the HELL uses that expression :D
NORMOXIC NITROX :)))
will have to use that in some speech about tech diving ;D
just to see the reaction of the audience :D :D :D :D :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
The same person that uses the term "Di-hydrogen monoxide".Quote:
Originally Posted by OH
The only time I've been badly narced like this was at 90' but it was due to extreme exhertion. Used to help Frank on the Spree drilling moorings for the Flower Gardens. Carrying an extra 50 lbs to the drill site can work an old man hard. I remember once getting to Franks feet at the site and looking up at him smiling as I let go of the 50 lbs. He grabbed my ankle as I went by (heading to the surface) and after I got the air dumped out of my wing he just stood there and shook his head. Gotta respect being narced, it'll kill ya.Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Bowen
It could also be Hypercapnia (too much CO2 - in this case because of hyperventilating), couldn't it?
Just a thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skorpiov
Reference: Increased risk of narcosis results from increasing the amount of carbon dioxide retained through heavy exercise, shallow or skip breathing, or because of poor gas exchange in the lungs.[22]
I'm sure its related! ;-) it was also poor planning on my part. We do JSA's on nearly everything at work (well I dont, but the guys that actually work do) and I am so used to stepping through every step of a job looking for potential issues, that I should have seen this coming.
PS. I also used to smoke cigarettes at that time. Gave them up due to CO hits at depth (and I wanted to live longer). Did you know chain smoking before deep dives is a recipe for trouble? I didnt.
A coincidence, but I had to think about exactly this last week. I had previously laid my line to 100' but was unsure how the cave would progress. For various reasons the next dive was to be air. I created various plans but with a limit of 120'. I decided that surveying at that depth on air would not be optimal and I will survey with a light trimix in the future. My air limit for survey I guess would be around 80'.
Same same day, same depths, same gas, same conditions: a sightseeing dive vs. a spearfishing dive and the difference in mental clarity is amazing. You can almost feel your brain slowing down as your effort increases. I think lots of folks don't consider this seriously enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay
Old school was 221 ft on air. 1.6 of course. A limit of 1.4 first came about for working dives, but was much later.Quote:
Originally Posted by huxley
Real old school was "If I came back I can go deeper next time"
LA all depends on how you define work up dives. I've done ample deep dives on air none of which I was truly happy with, due to how i felt after the dive, even with extensive stops and slow ascents. The dive to 185' was shortly after I started getting into diving TriMix and it left me with no doubt on the benefits of diving mixed gas over air.
I wasn't sharp shooting, rather was just curious. I know individual experiences will vary widely. Oddly enough, Hal Watts did (does?) teach deep air to well beyond 221'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azchipka
I went to 140 in Lower Orange grove (or as sludge calls it lower lower orange grove) on air and felt pretty good and really quite clear. That was in an Advanced Recreational Trimix class. But I have also been swimming along at 100' and realized "Oh s**t I'm narced." It really varies for me day to day as to what my helium depth needs to be, but I know ifI'm tired or something, I know to opt for something not as deep
Fixed your typo.Quote:
Originally Posted by floridakid
Lol, the only reason I said sludge was because he corrected me on it 2 days agoQuote:
Originally Posted by Greenwood_60
Solo forgetaboutit.
I would probably dive air to 80ft or so if nitrox wasn't available. Deeper than that the bottom times get kinda short relative to the cave/deco time factor. So I may or may not do a 90ft dive on air, depends.
I'll dive EAN32 to 100ft, if there's flow I just make a super concious effort to not work very hard (or take a scooter). Beyond 100-105ft or so I want to have some sort of mix, 25/25 or 21/35 would be fine to start.
How'd you know?! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Yes, toxing on air was a problem at one time. Mostly people trying to set air depth records. There are a few notable cases of it happening as shallow as 300', though.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomhauburn
Just busting your balls. According to Taming of the Slough, Lower Lower OG is the correct term for the deep section. Lower OG is the cavern area (60ish to 100ish).Quote:
Originally Posted by floridakid
I have done 170 on air in a cave, but only in an area where I had direct access to go up to allow narcosis to clear, and it was planned for that. I would not venture down a tunnel at that depth. Probably 100 is the deepest I would go on air, but why is there a difference between what gas you breath with a buddy or solo? Either the gas is safe for a given depth or not. (By safe, I use the 1.4 work working and 1.6 for deco rule)
Well I tell my students that smoking makes better divers.
You kill half of your lungs, so you don't need to breathe that much any more ;)
I stopped smoking for tech diving too. But I was never a chain smoker anyway ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skorpiov
Maybe that explains why my sac rate has gone up slightly since I quit. hmmm... Maybe I'll take it up again...
j/k
shallow? 300ft? :D
What PP is "normal" for toxing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Same here I have hit 225'Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Bowen
160 feet
There is no "normal". There have been hits at 1.6, and Jim Miller survived over an hour at around 3, before his hit. 300' on air is just over 2.1.Quote:
Originally Posted by OH
I think it also more than just the total PPO2, I think time spent there is at least as relevant, so it's not just a how deep would you go, but it's also how long would you stay there. But with air, I think it's the N2 and not the O2 that is usually the biggest concern.
I wonder if the same mechanism that causes narcosis would increase the seizure threshold, thus delaying or preventing convulsions due to oxygen toxicity...
Personally, I don't breathe air unless there's nothing else available and I don't care for solo diving because it's less fun than having someone along so I normally won't do either of these things.
The mental image of this really made me laugh. Glad frank grabbed ya. It is a good example of narced. you probable thought you were fine didn't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skorpiov
100'
When people tell me they have "adapted" or "acclimated" to diving air deep i view them in the same light as drunks who believe they can drive or do complex tasks just as well when tanked.
An hour? Was that in a chamber or so?
Full face mask?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
No, it was in the water. I think everyone else is surprised too.Quote:
Originally Posted by OH
There is some speculation that this is true. Liz Halbach toxed at ~1.4-1.5 IIRC with 25% helium in her mix. Jim Miller, with the same 25% helium in his mix, lasted an hour before toxing at roughly double the ppO2. Actually seizing is too erratic to genuinely know.Quote:
Originally Posted by floridakid
200'+/- a few feet. After numerous "deep" air dives in cold, dark, wrecks I wouldn't hesitate to take it to 200. However, if helium was available...
Actually, for many years the opposite was believed to be true, based on work that Lanphier did in 1955. Based on some scant experimental data, he concluded in his work for the US Navy that increasing the PN2 at a given PO2 increased the likelihood of CNS symptoms. He may not have adequately controlled for the effects of CO2. Kenneth Donald, who did more work on human subjects in oxygen toxicity than any other researcher, concluded that the PN2 had no effect on susceptibility, either positive or negative.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjack
Being that many of the popular theories atribute narcosis to antagonism of NMDA receptors and agonism of GABA receptors, narcosis would decrease the likelihood of convulsions. However, there are many other factors at play when determining of when convulsions due to O2 tox will occur. If narcosis does in fact involve stimulation of GABA receptors, I would be shocked to find out elevated pN2s did not to some extent prevent convulsions.
That would be a really cool study for someone with access to a chamber to do, hint hint
I dived air to 192' once in Bonaire on the Windjammer because I couldn't get any helium. I remember the basic details of the dive, but time was WAY accelerated (about a minute into the dive I looked at my computer only to find that seven minutes had gone by). Conditions were perfect - 82° water, 100' vis, no current - so we made the decision to do the dive on air. Would I do it again? Maybe. But I wouldn't recommend it to someone else.
In a cave? No way.
I guided a guy to a Henley's castle last month. I was on CCR, with air in dil ... as I was not intending to go all the way down.
As we were heading down, I started to feel narked, so I looked at my PPo2, I was at like 1.4 PP
So me being stupid, I dil flushed my loop ... which made things obviously even worse, as that knocked my PPO2 doen but increased the PPN ...
So I just made "the OK" around the line as that was the only thing I could concentrate on ;) and started to come up ...
Never ever again ...
WE LOVE YOU Mr HELIUM :D
Oh, I knew I was narced. The really scary part was I enjoyed it. If I added up all the money I used to spend trying to feel this way at the surface, I'd buy a 100ft yacht and live in Florida, or the Bahamas.Quote:
Originally Posted by bullfrog
Air is for car tires!
To quote the late Alexander Pope:
To air is human; to helium, devine.
More like "to helium, is to eat ramen noodles 3 times a day so I can afford to dive"Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Leonhardt
Well, what about sleeping in and skipping breakfast? :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridakid
It cost more to stay sober past 200' than stay drunk at the local bar.Quote:
Originally Posted by floridakid
The ultimate budget problem is when you have to chose between the tank fill for the dive, or the beer for afterwards
Lots of Cavedivers have some sort of nitrox in their tires. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Leonhardt
Especially at the dry counties in the cave country :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaveMD
210' on the aft dek of the Edward G Cox{not solo !} in Lake superior....37f farenheit at depth on air.......once was enough.....solo in shape 125' max is a reasonable max on 27% ! ....32% i would not push beyond that !
FWIW !
How deep would I dive on air while solo diving in a cave? It depends ...
100'
---
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Curt,Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Bowen
Am I the only one here who actually believes this?
Trimix freezes me, never remember being cold on air deeper than 150 feet.
Just like people dont remember what a good time they had the last time they left their drink unattended at a sketchy party
No. This was pretty typical for deep cave diving before the early 90s. Many went deeper than that on air. Before helium was readily available as it is now, and especially reliable decompression methods using helium, most deep cave divers used air because that's what they knew and trusted.Quote:
Originally Posted by RGU
Sure, I went to 230" with a mutual acquaintance of Curt's. No problem going down, but stopping our descent was difficult and the whole cave started to spin when we turned around to head up.Quote:
Originally Posted by RGU
I used to draw the line at 180" which was the BSAC maximum recommended depth on air from the old days. Having compared my survey notes on air and with helium in the mix I would prefer the latter.
Solo or not makes no difference to me...with more than one person narc'd at depth then there's a greater chance of doing something stupid. Besides I wouldn't reckon on being a good buddy under such conditions - but there again I'm probably not a good buddy at any depth since I'm unused to team diving. :-)
Anyone can dive air to 230", that isn't much more that 2 meters :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Price
2m =6.6 ft ...
for the old school guys who still use imperial system :)
OK, 230" is actually 9.055 meters, or 19 feet. Still not very deep :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by OH