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This is a serious post:
During my last CCR CAVE training dive, I came across a water moccasin in about 6' of water, needless to say I was terrified, keep in mind that I was bit by a copperhead at the age of 6 and have had a fear of snakes ever since.
What caves am I least likely to encounter these things and what advise can you give me about future encounters?
I;m going to head back down to Florida for the months of April (in a few weeks).
Thanks,
Jon
Photo opportunity. Try to get it to bite at the camera. But seriously, leave it be. I wonder what it thinks of you... They are everywhere.
Coming from a reptile lover. Water moccasins tend to be shorter, squat snakes with a very evident traingular head. While they are native to florida you are more likely to see common forms of water snakes. Pick up a copy of Roger Conants field guide to the reptiles and amphibians of the Eastern United States for accurate photo ID of various species of reptile and amphibian fauna. Not saying you didn't see a moccasin, just most people tend to think every snake they see in the water is one.
Welcome to Florida.
As with all wild life, leave them alone and they will leave you alone. You are more likely to see them on the bank, so don't step on them as that will cause them to strike. Have your buddy jump in first to scare them all away and you should be good to go. Same advice for the gators too. Buddy system is very useful here also.
Safe diving.
If you are in Florida, and there is some kind of water nearby, there is some kind of water sanke nearby.
As far as cotton mouths go, not to scare you or anything, but they are highly aggressive and they might even chase you. i have littlerally seen them cross the river headed strait for me
Not being a FL native, I had heard that also. This website is pretty informative and dispels that myth that they are "aggressive" snakes. An excerpt:Quote:
Originally Posted by floridakid
"If the water is close, then they will often dive for it, even if the threat is between them and escape. I have had them rush around me and over my feet to get to the water. This may be a source of some of the Water Moccasin's rumored (but non-existent) aggressiveness. Most other aquatic snakes will usually flee away from the threat even if it drives them away from the water."
http://www.coastalplainsreptiles.com...yMoccasin.html
It was definitely a Moccasin, I've been studying snakes for 25 years, what systems are less likely to house them, I think Little river with all of the manmade block and contrete work would qualify, any ideas on locations?
The sacrificial buddy, I like that, then I can dive alone while he deals with the snake traps on his rig.
I wish you were correct, the ID was confirmed by me, the instructor and the Rager, basically they all said the same things.....with snakes I'm unlucky.
There is an awesome photo of Brett Hemphill cradling a rattlesnake on the ADM web site. I asked him if he were a snake charmer; he said he'd been handling snakes for 30 years. Maybe he can advise you. Do they really swim after people? Also, has anyone ever seen those long brown tree hanging snakes in FL? I think they were in the "Deliverance" movie....
We have rattlesnakes out here but the water is too cold for any reptiles.
This was really helpful. I saw a banded water snake at little devils the other day. He was definitely checking me out. And he was definitely not a water moccasin. So now I know the difference. And knowing is half the battle!Quote:
Originally Posted by L.A.
That is always a good time to have a spare buddy or two around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith
David
We saw a gorgeous Eastern Diamondback on the trail at Peacock a few weeks ago, a little over 4 feet long. He'd apparently eaten recently and was sunning while digesting, all stretched out along a sunny spot on the trail. He gave us this look like "are you really gonna make me move?" So we, being the completely harmonious team we are, decided we were done walking that section :)
The only snake I've come across that was definitely aggressive was a tiny pygmy rattler. Pulled him up with a clump of weeds and immediately tossed him back down. He was 10 inches of pure pissed off machismo. He wouldn't "shoo" or quit striking at us, so we had to send him off to his next life.
Having grown is South GA. on the border of the Coolawahee swamp, I can tell you that Moccasins are aggressive, I don't care what any website says. For aggressive, but harmless a Black Racer beats most any snake
The most ruthless and determined snake that I have ever run across was a black racer. The little bas**rd bit me 3 times before I get get my hand away from him and 2 more times as I tried to catch him for relocation. When I put my boot next to him, he would just strike it over and over again. I finally put my welding gloves on and got him moved out of my shop and into some tall grass.
I witnessed a water moccassin chase my Grandfather and myself out of a pond and about 35 foot into the pasture one day. We were riding a horse (and herding cattle) if that makes any difference.
Growing up in Kansas had one very nasty snake to deal with. It was a common diamondback rattlesnake with one difference. Sometimes when the snakes would get very old, there rattles would fall off. This was commonly referred to as the "old dog" state. For some reason these snakes would no longer try to avoid confrontation but rather just stand there ground and strike at anything that moved. Having no rattles to warn an intruder with made them very dangerous for us farm/ranch hands.
Snakes are awesome creatures that many times are given a bad rap. Almost any snake will do its very best to get away from you rather than bite you. But they are just like divers - most of them are ok, but there is always going to be that one as**ole to deal with. The trick is knowing which is which.
Snakes are cool just like bats and both always get an undeservingly bad rep (bats being evil creatures, getting caught in your hair etc...) , in all but two exceptions, snakes will always try and avoid you and flee, just try and avoid fast movement if you see one and stay still, nothing will happen.
The two exception being the king Cobra and the Black Mamba two snakes you will never see in Florida.
My only question is can snakes bite through the tough exterior of a dry suit? I know last year we has snake sightings at Roubidoux and Cannonball (Missouri caves), and the reports were they seem to be getting use to the human activity around the water. Not sure if that is a good thing or not.
If they could get there darned fangs through my leather boots, I don't think a drysuit has a chance in stopping them.Quote:
Originally Posted by deepdiverbob
Agreed, when I worked for the FL park system, every snake in the park was a moccasin.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavewoman
I guess what I'm asking is are there any other cave entrances that are as "developed" as Little River?
I have been working with venomous snakes for years. Fixing to finally get around to having my captive venomous permit. I have never once seen a cotton mouth chase someone.. Just people who happened to be fleeing in the same direction as the snake! :roll:
Tony DC
Uh, Folks Water Moccasins WILL come after you. We have a lot of them all over Texas and I've had 2 get into my house here in Houston. If you encounter them in the water, a good spashing will nearly always make them turn away. I've swam with them at our lakehouse in North Texas all my life. You just sorta get used to keeping an eye out. Pushing a panicing girlfriend in the water would almost certainly make them run off and hide.
Sure, especially when they are cornered and people come after them with rocks and sticks for no reason, they only have one way out, between your feet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skorpiov
If you spend any time in Florida waters, sooner or later you will see them swimming on the surface of the water, & especially if the water is high. 'Cotton Mouths' tend to seek the warmer currents of the rivers & shy away from spring fed sources. I've seen huge fresh water eels {black with white stripes} emerge from ground ceilings into the actual caves that we dive in & are not to be concerned about. They are a amazing to watch as you hover above the moving silt floors in most hidden cave systems. You will rarely see them in the more popular recreational cave. The best advise is to look where you step or where you make your water entry. Stagnant summer spring heads are good places to see cotton mouths swimming across the head pools. Of more concern are gators in mating season { mid April thru August} & may be agressive. Gators shy away from clanky, metal laden cave divers, & i have never heard of a gator attacking a diver. Skin divers on the other hand {sans wet suit but in bathing suits, snorkles, fins, & mask on the other hand have been documented with being attacked. Keep that in mind. I do not think you will have any snake encounters down here lest you go looking for them. That is my obserbations of some 25 years of cave diving & open water as well. You should be looking for Tick nests though ! They are ugly to get into & are abundent everywhere especially around water ! Go dive & enjoy our state. Don't worry about all the rest of it. They ain't out to get you ! :)
Jack
When I was at Madison Blue last month, someone said they saw a Copperhead in there.
Few days later I saw a "snake" in the entrance to Telford ...
I have no knowledge about snakes, that's probably why I don't like the idea of diving with them too much ;)
Copperheads are rare for Florida. If you do see one in the state of Florida, it will more than likely be in the panhandle. Copperheads, generally, are found further north, Kentucky, Tennessee and Georgia.Quote:
Originally Posted by OH
Most Copperheads in FL are misidentified as moccasins and those generally, about 99% of the time, are actualy a non-venomous common brown water snake.
There are only two kinds of snakes, rattlesnakes and water moccasins. So if it doesn't make a rattling sound, it's a water moccasin.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Nope, only two kinds of snakes, good ones and bad ones. Guess what it takes to qualify as a good one?
A live one =)Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
Your quite right. Copperheads do not normally make their down to cave country area. You will often see them in GA, panhandle, etc. I can see why people often misidentify a water snake for cottonmouths, but not a copperhead.... Moral of the story is if you don't know snakes don't mess with them and they wont mess with you =)Quote:
Originally Posted by Line Squirrel
I've been waiting for this one:)Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
i have only ever seen one in the Santa Fe river system on a night dive, i had a fellow i was diving with think it would be a great photo op to grab ahold of him. Of course i flashed him and signaled to get his a$$ up for a quick chat,, as he didnt seem to find a problem with grabbing hold of wildlife for a quick photo. after i explained the markings on the snake and identified what species it was he still thought i was an A-hole from stopping him from being bitten by this. The next morning when we met with our local friend and i explained how our nite dive went he took the time to explain everything i had that night. But like stated if you leave them alone they likely wont bother you.
Couldn't agree more. Snakes are lovely creatures. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyDCaver
Yes they are. I keep a few, but nothing venomous and all captive bred. I love living in Florida, where I can see snakes in the wild and in my yard. That almost never happened in New Jersey.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavewoman
--
Art
I've had cottonmouths up here before swim up to us and try to get in the boat while we were fishing. A bit disconcerting when it's 6+ at a time.
I do not care for them.
+1. Growing up in the Panhandle it was no big deal seeing them around the water. Being struck at by a cotton mouth the size ofQuote:
Originally Posted by Webmaster
a freakin bus when your 11 years old = life changing! I still have nightmares about that creature from HELL. We stay away from each other now a days, it's been working out thus far.
At least the leak will be easy to find! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Dsix36
I can attest to Brett being a snake charmer. I have seen him "rescue" cottonmouths from the middle of roads, clear them away from areas we were diving, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavedivingwoman
Here is a link ( http://www.walterpickel.com/Expediti...L4rhB&lb=1&s=A ) to one of the pictures I took of Brett. Hilarious how he came about "finding" that snake. Brett was digging in a rock choked fissure (dry) and he said it feel into his lap. He surprised all of us when he walked up with it. It was 28 that day and the snake had been trying to stay warm. Took him about 5 minutes to start waking up.
Video of Brett with the snake - http://www.walterpickel.com/Expediti...4637&k=vFTczLz
This is a cottonmouth we found hiking around Homosassa
http://www.walterpickel.com/Animals/...bsNmQ&lb=1&s=A
Ancient snake (note her head and spine ridge)...She was NOT aggressive at all, not even when I tripped and braced my fall by putting my hand down 2 feet away from her.
Already knew Brett wuddn't quite right...confirmed :DQuote:
Originally Posted by DeepSea
She is gorgeous!Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepSea
Couple of a nice lookin Diamondback I snapped near a dive site here in Wakulla-land
Attachment 6052Attachment 6053
I got pretty close to it, and it reared up to strike if need-be, but didn't... instead it relaxed and finished crossing the road slowly.
They're all part our beautiful Florida paradise. Just leave them alone! Snakes are better than the rats that they eat.
I agree, here is an eastern rat snake I found hanging in the ceiling of a dry cave here in FloridaQuote:
Originally Posted by GLM
http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net...S-kcdsORip8Mw_
I worked in a swamp when I was 18 helping a herpatoligist catch moccasins. We caught over 1100 and not a one was aggressive until we had them cornered. I think most know that myth is busted. I even swam with one at 30ft at a spring.Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyDCaver
I've only had close encounters with 15-20 (swam with hundreds). I've had two come AT me on land and several change directions in the lake and come AT me. Maybe they are just angry in Texas, or maybe its a slightly different variety?
I would advise caution when telling people they are NOT agressive. I wouldnt want to be responsble for having someone get to close thinking they were not and get bit. If you're a snake handler, ok, you are probably never going to get bit, because of your familiarity with their personalities. Its us skeered folks that I worry about.
I used to train attack dogs. I'm completely comfortable with dogs, because I have observed so many of them I recognize behaviours to beware of. Maybe the same kind of thing. Maybe not... just sayin.
They make a lovely pair of boots, maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavewoman
An observation: Those folks who like/keep/study snakes seem to agree that Agkistrodon piscivorus (water moccasin/cottonmouth) are not aggressive. Those who don't, and who have happened across them in the wild, seem to agree that they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skorpiov
Conjecture: This situation is not going to change. Maybe its time to stop arguing about it.
It would take quite a few of these animals to make a pair of shoes, let alone boots. They're just not that big.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
--
Art
Gosh Art, I didnt realize I sounded like I was arguing. I thought I might be making a point. Really sorry if it bugged you.
Nothing from you or anyone in particular, Steve. And it doesn't bug me. Its just a waste of bandwidth IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skorpiov
There are authoritative sources available on line.
--
Art
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Greenberg
I've seen a moccasin try to get into an inflatable raft while the occupant was trying to beat him off with a paddle. This particular incident was very funny, as an observer in a canoe 30 ft away. However, since the paddler did not initiate the encounter nothing will convince me that they can not be aggressive.
Because if it's online, it must be true.
I must refrain, I must refrain, I must refrainQuote:
Originally Posted by gasdiver
The next time one of those critters tries to get in my boat I'll be sure to remind him he's not aggressive.
I still have the canoe that is full of dents where one of those non aggressive Cotton Mouths fell from the limb of an overhanging tree into the canoe. It was not trying to get away, unless it thought the way out was through me.
I broke the paddle into small pieces and had to paddle back with my hands, I was about ten or twelve at the time. Luckily I did not have my shotgun with me.
Dang, I would have shot holes all in my boat.
I did watch a guy empty a handgun trying to hit a small copper head, after which I grabbed a shovel and .......
Carried it into the forrest to release it... (I knew you herpetologists would wince)