Royal Spring 3/4/12

I went here to play with my new 108's and get them set up and figured I would check out the cave while I was here. After adjusting my cam bands a little I decided to head on in.

Viz is about 10' and has a milky white haze to it. Cave itself has a very fine white clay type silt that sort of explodes when you get near it. Just gliding 12" over the top of it without kicking sends it up and your bubbles dislodge a lot of it from the ceiling as well. Over half my exit was done holding on to a line.

Overall the basin and cavern are kind of cool but the cave is fairly boring, low entry viz and zero exit viz.

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Originally Posted by CaveMD

Over half my exit was done holding on to a line...

cave is fairly boring, low entry viz and zero exit viz.

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The rule of thumb with this cave is you go there to recover a victim or be a victim.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

The rule of thumb with this cave is you go there to recover a victim or be a victim.

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If that statement does not keep you out of it, nothing will.

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Originally Posted by JamesK

If that statement does not keep you out of it, nothing will.

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Nothing positive has ever come out of diving the cave. Some caves are just not meant to be dove.

Especially without alot of experience and new gear?

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

Especially without alot of experience and new gear?

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Really? A new set of tanks? They aren't rocket surgery. Ya move the bands till balanced and you are done.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

The rule of thumb with this cave is you go there to recover a victim or be a victim.

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+1, I had to go there to believe it for myself. Discussing the cave with an old timer, he remarked "I've thought about mapping that cave to help when there's a body recovery to do". That's about the only reason I would ever go back in there.

If anyone on here sees this and gets motivated to go dive an "off the path" cave, I would strongly recommend *never* letting go of the line, which is already older and ratty. There are places in this cave with 3-4 parallel lines all within 1-2ft of each other, and the silt is worse than anything else I've seen.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

+1, I had to go there to believe it for myself. Discussing the cave with an old timer, he remarked "I've thought about mapping that cave to help when there's a body recovery to do". That's about the only reason I would ever go back in there.

If anyone on here sees this and gets motivated to go dive an "off the path" cave, I would strongly recommend *never* letting go of the line, which is already older and ratty. There are places in this cave with 3-4 parallel lines all within 1-2ft of each other, and the silt is worse than anything else I've seen.

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It's not the worst silt I've ever seen but it's pretty bad for sure.

Having been to EOL and finding the mask of the last person to die there, I concur. If you want to dive off the beaten path, ok, but there is a beaten path for a reason :)

There is only one cave that has claimed more lived. Believe it or not, that was Ginnie, before they put the grate in it.

Hey guys, do you think CaveMD should re-line Royal?

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Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

Hey guys, do you think CaveMD should re-line Royal?

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Royal, to use a bad comparison is destined to be the Ben Daniel 2 scenario.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Royal, to use a bad comparison is destined to be the Ben Daniel 2 scenario.

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Someone will try.

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Originally Posted by CaveMD

Really? A new set of tanks? They aren't rocket surgery. Ya move the bands till balanced and you are done.

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Way to be prudent.

Move the bands around all you want in the beginning of the dive and it tells you nothing of how they'll ride around at the end in alot of cases. Are they longer, shorter, wider than your previous tanks? Maybe they move around differently, maybe you can't spin around as easily as before...

There's alot more to any new gear than most inexperienced divers realize, and giving them a whirl in a cave known to suck the life out of people is never a good idea.

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Originally Posted by CaveMD

They aren't rocket surgery.

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Nor are they brain science.

This thread speaks volumes, considering that James and JahJah both had to go there even after hearing how bad it was.

What makes anyone think the average cave diver is much different? Keeping this thread extant, just advertises Royal Spring and creates an incentive for divers to go see for themselves. If it's that bad, then perhaps the thread should be pulled, or at least locked to keep it from coming up on top of people's "new posts".

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

This thread speaks volumes, considering that James and JahJah both had to go there even after hearing how bad it was.

What makes anyone think the average cave diver is much different? Keeping this thread extant, just advertises Royal Spring and creates an incentive for divers to go see for themselves. If it's that bad, then perhaps the thread should be pulled, or at least locked to keep it from coming up on top of people's "new posts".

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Not sure I agree with you, Larry. It was on my radar, but had absolutely no idea how bad it was. Cave Atlas says nothing about it being any worse than anything else. Because of this thread I now have no interest in diving here.

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Originally Posted by Greenwood_60

Not sure I agree with you, Larry. It was on my radar, but had absolutely no idea how bad it was. Cave Atlas says nothing about it being any worse than anything else. Because of this thread I now have no interest in diving here.

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That is exactly what I think as well, but has me wondering as a Newbie, what other caves should I avoid, which ones are considered "black diamond" if you will?

My mama told me "Don't touch that hot stove, it will burn you". Of course I had to touch it...

Just sayin'

and what did you learn? that the stove is hot and that it will burn you!

actually the best way to teach your child that the stove is hot and will burn you is to have them touching it when it's hot enough to hurt so they remember without being burned.

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

That is exactly what I think as well, but has me wondering as a Newbie, what other caves should I avoid, which ones are considered "black diamond" if you will?

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The CDF is a great place to get advice, condition reports, and information on what to expect on different sites. You may not get it publicly in the forum, but I'm certain you can get information on anything known in Florida PM'd to you relatlively easy from users at this website.

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Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

My mama told me "Don't touch that hot stove, it will burn you". Of course I had to touch it...

Just sayin'

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Exactly.

sounds like a shitty dive.

dunno if it's the widowmaker everyone's making it out to be (haven't been there) but why would you bother wasting a dive there?

fairly descent basin and cavern, platform, usually nobody there shallow and free of charge, more of an OW dive if you stay out of the cave.
good place to play with new equipment, went there a couple times last year. if it's just for the cave i don't think it's worth the air, probably more a been there done it and yes everyone is right kind of thing.
I always thought this was the deathliest one in florida till fw told me it was ginnie springs

Did it as a Cavern dive many years ago. Pretty little spring as long as you stay in the light zone.

WJH

The cavern is pretty decent sized, but as I recall, the floor is really silty. I knew some guys that used to take their advanced classes their on night dives and once a girl got lost and disoriented momentarily in the cavern area. Really, this place is deceptive.

As others have said, the cave itself is really crappy. Low flow, lots of silt.

How about this: I dived at Royal Spring once. That was an hour of my life I'll never get back.

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Originally Posted by huxley

I always thought this was the deathliest one in florida till fw told me it was ginnie springs

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So, Ginnie, Royal, Peacock?, ???

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Originally Posted by kensuf

The cavern is pretty decent sized, but as I recall, the floor is really silty. I knew some guys that used to take their advanced classes their on night dives and once a girl got lost and disoriented momentarily in the cavern area. Really, this place is deceptive.

As others have said, the cave itself is really crappy. Low flow, lots of silt.

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Wasn't there a father and son fatality there a couple years ago? New OW divers who got disoriented in the silt-can't remember all the details.

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Originally Posted by JamesK

Someone will try.

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Not anyone who has the experience and the common sense to listen to those with more experience. Some people are just trying too hard to be a darwin award candidate.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Wasn't there a father and son fatality there a couple years ago? New OW divers who got disoriented in the silt-can't remember all the details.

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Teen age kid and his older cousin

NEWS
Bodies Of Cave Divers Found
February 21, 2001
LIVE OAK -- The bodies of two Georgia scuba divers were found more than 500 feet inside a treacherous spring cave, police said. Mark Anthony Granger, 19, and William Anthony Ridenour, 34, both of Kingsland, Ga., received their diving certifications Sunday and were on a dive with their instructor when they died, authorities said. Rescue divers found Granger's body Monday morning in 40 feet of water 500 feet inside the Royal Springs cave, police said. Ridenour's body, which Hall said was hard to find because of silt in the water, was later recovered about 50 feet farther in.

So the story showed them as "cave divers"?

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Originally Posted by JamesK

So the story showed them as "cave divers"?

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To the average uninformed reporter, any diver in a cave is, of course, a "cave diver", irrespective of training, certification, or lack thereof. Just as all our SCUBA cylinders are usually called "oxygen tanks" no matter what they contain.

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

sounds like a shitty dive.

dunno if it's the widowmaker everyone's making it out to be (haven't been there) but why would you bother wasting a dive there?

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I was already there. The most dangerous thing in the cave is man-made. There is a birdnest #### storm of cave line in there that was never pulled from previous recoveries.

From what I saw there isn't much to see, it gets kinda tight eventually and T's a few times. The only reason I would ever go back is to pull out the old line. The cave itself is fairly boring and poor viz. Exiting viz is probably top 3 worst I've experienced. The cavern was the most interesting part of the dive. Lots of freshwater flounder.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Wasn't there a father and son fatality there a couple years ago? New OW divers who got disoriented in the silt-can't remember all the details.

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Originally Posted by tj

Teen age kid and his older cousin

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It was a kid and his dad's best friend. I saw the recovery video - gruesome.

I've spent a lot of time there. Very nice place, but it bites back if you let it. I worked my way into the cave very cautiously, but I see many opportunities for little mistakes to kill.

Three friends have died because they overestimated their skills or underestimated the cave. I've gotten into three situations where I could have as well. I have immensely more respect for the cave now.

I would dive royal again, but why? There are many other caves to line, reline, and survey. Of course some of them are dangerous too, but every year I get more cautious and see new ways to stay safe. Also, finding the mask of one of the deceased creeped me out. I replaced it in the silt but sometimes wonder if putting it on the mantelpiece would be a good reminder to think twice and dive once.

I wouldn't dive these places solo though, especially to learn survey and lining skills, I think you need a mentor to help you know what's best at first. The time I spent in the water with my mentors helped a ton. I'm better at lining and doing it safely after learning from people who do it every weekend for the last 15 years! And working with them, I've been to far more interesting and safe cave than Royal!

I've been at Royal way back in 1995 when the sand boil amongst the logs was not a boil, but a steady flow. At the time, the run going out to the river was about 3 1/2 feet deep and you could see clearly from the slope where the boardwalk is now all the way to the cave entrance. You want to talk about a phenomenal cavern sight? I would rate that experience right up there with the few revelations I have witnessed watching the sunbeams from the cavern at Jug Hole. Sadly, I have yet to experience a dive at Royal that was as pristine since.

On another note, I saw the birthing of catfish right inside the first right turn after the first left turn into the cave. There must have been 4 or 5 mothers because there were little HUNDREDS of tiny little baby catfish squirming around, none larger than a dime. That alone makes Royal unique in my mind. But as most here have written, the cave is not worth the risk IMO. Gate it off and you wouldn't hurt my feelings.

Thomas

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Originally Posted by dogwatch

NEWS
Bodies Of Cave Divers Found
February 21, 2001
LIVE OAK -- The bodies of two Georgia scuba divers were found more than 500 feet inside a treacherous spring cave, police said. Mark Anthony Granger, 19, and William Anthony Ridenour, 34, both of Kingsland, Ga., received their diving certifications Sunday and were on a dive with their instructor when they died, authorities said. Rescue divers found Granger's body Monday morning in 40 feet of water 500 feet inside the Royal Springs cave, police said. Ridenour's body, which Hall said was hard to find because of silt in the water, was later recovered about 50 feet farther in.

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So...they got their OW certs on Sunday and went diving in a cave (as opposed to cave diving) with their OW instructor on Monday. Gives a bad name to people from Georgia.

No disrespect to the dead intended, but I get this mental of image of two brand new OW divers jumping up and down waving their hands yelling "Pick me Mr. Grim Reaper!! Pick Me!!"

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

So...they got their OW certs on Sunday and went diving in a cave (as opposed to cave diving) with their OW instructor on Monday. Gives a bad name to people from Georgia.

No disrespect to the dead intended, but I get this mental of image of two brand new OW divers jumping up and down waving their hands yelling "Pick me Mr. Grim Reaper!! Pick Me!!"

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I know it's hard to believe, but Royal used to be clear, with a spring run that flowed out to the river. I actually have one of my first dive logs from 1999 where I logged how much clearer it was than Blue Grotto (I assume because fewer divers), and how cool all the fish in there were when I brought cheese.

Anyways, I shared that to say that I don't think their goal was to get towards the back in this case, even though they ended up there. They were found dead in the terminal room from what I hear, and there's simply no way on earth that was intentional. I would guess that they went to the first room or so, where it's still large, and likely VERY clear at the time, silted it out, and then kept crawling further and further into the cave, thinking they were exiting.

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

So...they got their OW certs on Sunday and went diving in a cave (as opposed to cave diving) with their OW instructor on Monday. Gives a bad name to people from Georgia.

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As I recall the incident, there are more wrong things in that story than right things. My memory isn't perfectly clear, but as I recall, the kid was 17, his dad's friend had been certified several months (the kid had indeed done his Dive #4 earlier that day), and the instructor loaned him a light to explore under the ledge, but had admonished him to NOT enter the cave - but then the instructor left the premises.

The sight of the dead kid lying on his back on the 15' platform (in the recovery video) with a mask full of blood and mucous was the most disheartening thing I have ever seen. I remember several days later describing the video to my mother and she stood there in tears - still a kid, and dead because of a stupid decision.

Maybe the family should have released THAT video to be shown in dive shops all over Florida - it would be a thousand times more effective than "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die."

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Maybe the family should have released THAT video to be shown in dive shops all over Florida - it would be a thousand times more effective than "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die."

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No truer words were ever spoken.
+1

Someone mentioned that some cave dives need an analogy of like snow skiing where there are black diamond slopes. This dive is a Darwinian dive,because someone will remove themselves from the gene pool. I have talked to people like Woody Jasper etc and they say the same thing,the only reason they go in there is to remove the victim.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Someone mentioned that some cave dives need an analogy of like snow skiing where there are black diamond slopes. This dive is a Darwinian dive,because someone will remove themselves from the gene pool. I have talked to people like Woody Jasper etc and they say the same thing,the only reason they go in there is to remove the victim.

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I have heard the same from another old timer who goes in places most would not even think about. This person said he is always in favor of keeping cave open but would not mind a grate here.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

As I recall the incident, there are more wrong things in that story than right things. My memory isn't perfectly clear, but as I recall, the kid was 17, his dad's friend had been certified several months (the kid had indeed done his Dive #4 earlier that day), and the instructor loaned him a light to explore under the ledge, but had admonished him to NOT enter the cave - but then the instructor left the premises.

The sight of the dead kid lying on his back on the 15' platform (in the recovery video) with a mask full of blood and mucous was the most disheartening thing I have ever seen. I remember several days later describing the video to my mother and she stood there in tears - still a kid, and dead because of a stupid decision.

Maybe the family should have released THAT video to be shown in dive shops all over Florida - it would be a thousand times more effective than "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die."

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I saw that same video a few years ago I believe. However, either video you mentioned is effective to the right person, but some people, no matter what you show or tell them, they are going to do what they are going to do. I saw the "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die." in my OW class, and that has stuck with me to this day. When I met Lamar a few years ago, I made sure to thank him for that.

I don't know, Bob, there's a difference between bad acting and a close-up of a dead teenager...

I think the Rescue 911 episode with Woody would work pretty well.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

I don't know, Bob, there's a difference between bad acting and a close-up of a dead teenager...

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I totally agree with you. I am going with the idea of you cant say the wrong thing to the right person in sales. Same thing here, some people are going to do the stupid thing no matter what you show them.

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Originally Posted by Greenwood_60

I think the Rescue 911 episode with Woody would work pretty well.

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Yes, that would probably help as well.

I think that there are a few places that should have an additional note on the Grim Reaper sign: "This is an advanced cave dive. It should not be attempted by anyone who has not done 50 sidemount cave dives (or some other requirement appropriate for that cave)." If I had discovered Royal Springs cave while diving in the spring, I might have been tempted to go in as far as my primary reel would take me. Now that I know about the silt and, even more, the bad lines, I'll stay out. Nevertheless, my limits need not be everyone's limits.

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Originally Posted by allen

I think that there are a few places that should have an additional note on the Grim Reaper sign: "This is an advanced cave dive. It should not be attempted by anyone who has not done 50 sidemount cave dives (or some other requirement appropriate for that cave)." If I had discovered Royal Springs cave while diving in the spring, I might have been tempted to go in as far as my primary reel would take me. Now that I know about the silt and, even more, the bad lines, I'll stay out. Nevertheless, my limits need not be everyone's limits.

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Do you need a sign to tell you what your own personal limits are?

Things are not always what they seem to be. Hole in the Wall and the Nicholson tunnel are easier than one would expect from their entrances. Kitty Sink is worse than one would expect from the entrance. Many of the descriptions on this thread suggest that Royal Spring cave looks easier than it is. Worse exiting Royal Springs cave is much, much harder than entering. Ski slopes have difficulty markers. Why not caves? Usually I ask around for opininions before trying a new cave or even a new tunnel.

I once asked Bobby to go dive Royal with me and he told me he has no interest diving there, because it's not worth it. Reading this thread I think he is lying to me so I am gonna go and check it out for myself!
























BAZZINGA!

I've dove it twice when I lived up there, nothing special to see that's for sure. Very silty. There were, at the time, multiple lines wrapped around eathother, it was a mess. The walls are smooth with lot's of spots for line to slip under into line traps/undercuts, really no place for wraps, placements or tie-offs. It pinched off pretty quick into a nasty silt mound, one of those really "fluffy" angry looking silt mounds. Like all others have said with any experence in there...it's really not worth the effort hauling your gear down to the water for this one.

Anyone got an airlift dredge? :)

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Originally Posted by Greenwood_60

Anyone got an airlift dredge? :)

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I was told the best thing to do was to just take off one of your jet fins and use it as a shovel

Hunter, I'm moving this to the Fill Station. If this was an actual dive report, just let me know and I'll move it back to Dive Reports.

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Originally Posted by sskasser

Hunter, I'm moving this to the Fill Station. If this was an actual dive report, just let me know and I'll move it back to Dive Reports.

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It's real.

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Originally Posted by CaveMD

It's real.

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Moved back to Dive Reports. Thank you for the clarification.

In all honesty to anyone seriously considering diving this cave. The phrase "the only reason to dive it is to recover a victim or become one" has some unintentional truth to it. This cave is not an instant you're gonna die if you dive it but the cost/benefit ratio just aint there.

The cave is somewhat featureless, it is fairly silty and there is a mess of cave line in it. The cavern and basin is pretty cool.

If you just have a "need" for low and silty caves there are much nicer more interesting caves with lines actually run with reasonable organization in the area.

How do we know when your reports are real or not? Are we supposed to just take your word if your lying or not, because we have seen the worth of your word.

I am not sure why Suprbugman got banned, but I think CaveMD deserves it more by putting false reports in the forum.

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Originally Posted by jcook

How do we know when your reports are real or not? I am not sure why Suprbugman got banned, but I think CaveMD deserves it more by putting false reports in the forum.

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You needn't worry, I wont be posting any more reports on here.

They're only two false reports, one was FW's idea while we were sitting outside telford and everyone got their panty's in a bunch over the fact that I wanted to dive eagle's nest before I started residency in July. The other was my idea when people decided to act like ungrateful children when I posted condition reports on the local caves, and was intended as my last report.


Branford was a clear joke to anyone with a sense of reason. If there is one single person on this forum who's travel plans were honestly changed by a false report on Branford spring, I would love to hear it.

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Originally Posted by jcook

..... Suprbugman got banned

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What's the point of participating in a forum that allows trolling while punishing those that call it out, and actually contribute?

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Originally Posted by CaveMD

In all honesty to anyone seriously considering diving this cave. The phrase "the only reason to dive it is to recover a victim or become one" has some unintentional truth to it. This cave is not an instant you're gonna die if you dive it but the cost/benefit ratio just aint there.

The cave is somewhat featureless, it is fairly silty and there is a mess of cave line in it. The cavern and basin is pretty cool.

If you just have a "need" for low and silty caves there are much nicer more interesting caves with lines actually run with reasonable organization in the area.

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Never got that far to see the line chaos, just got warned to not trust the line in there and to be better off running your own. Guess that will not help getting tangled up in a mess. So I would rate this report helpful for people that are Royal springs, pool, cavern and or stick their head into the cave, just my two cents. I'm not a believer of forbidding things to do as it just boosts the interest in people doing it.
Gating it off might limit people from going in there but will surely attract someone to go around the gate and sneak in, as seen before. I think educating people does more good and for the ones that refuse to take that evolution will step in.

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Originally Posted by Benderr

What's the point of participating in a forum that allows trolling while punishing those that call it out, and actually contribute?

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Suprbugman didn't bet banned for calling out CaveMD, he dropped the F-bomb in the Unofficial CD Organizations forum. FWIW, it wasn't me that banned him.

The rules say posters have to remain civil. You are allowed to "call out" someone, but it has to be civil. It is still possible to get into trouble, if your "call out" causes someone else to be uncivil.

There are posters here that rag me all the time, but I just don't respond to them.

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Originally Posted by FW

Suprbugman didn't bet banned for calling out CaveMD, he dropped the F-bomb in the Unofficial CD Organizations forum. FWIW, it wasn't me that banned him.

The rules say posters have to remain civil. You are allowed to "call out" someone, but it has to be civil. It is still possible to get into trouble, if your "call out" causes someone else to be uncivil.

There are posters here that rag me all the time, but I just don't respond to them.

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Thanks for the clarification. I assumed it wasn't the other thread because people were being equally uncivil towards Mat in the other thread...

Can we add a rule that says you can't troll and/or post fake dive reports without being banned?

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

I don't know, Bob, there's a difference between bad acting and a close-up of a dead teenager...

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FWIW

If someone were really interested in this type of endeavor (I think it would really drive home some points), remember that the Medical Examiner takes pictures at the scene when bodies are being inventoried. Those pictures are available either publicly (some departments charge $5 a copy) or via a FOIA request.

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Originally Posted by Benderr

Can we add a rule that says you can't troll and/or post fake dive reports without being banned?

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Honestly, I don't necessarily agree with Hunter's post of Branford but I refuse to condemn him for it. Far worse things are done to actual caves that people on boards NEVER discuss (cave trash? glory markers, horrible hand prints in Orange Grove, scooter death spirals in JB, fin marks -- or walking -- in most caves). Banning Hunter, IMO, would be akin to someone being banned from a cave for running a bad line (how about all the crap lines in Devil's Eye).

Just remember this is a sport with LASTING consequences for even the most minor of screw ups...If not to the cave, to yourself.

Enjoy the beauty of the caves and least of all -- EXPLORE! If you don't go, you won't know!