I wish to thank Edd Sorenson, on behalf of the cave diving community, for his meritorious service involving two lost divers at Jackson Blue today. Edd's actions averted what could easily have been a very sad day for the community.
Jim Charles
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I wish to thank Edd Sorenson, on behalf of the cave diving community, for his meritorious service involving two lost divers at Jackson Blue today. Edd's actions averted what could easily have been a very sad day for the community.
Jim Charles
Interesting. I would love to know the story.
I am glad to read this post instead of an accident thread
Basically, a diver emerged from Jackson Blue yelling that two divers were lost in a silt-out. Edd was on the scene, about to start teaching his own cavern class. Notification to authorities and EMS was initiated and then Edd entered JB sniffing for the dust. Edd was able to locate each of the two students lost in the silt and bring them out--ALIVE! Obviously, I wish to commend Edd for his actions. This happy ending is an unusual occurence in the cave diving world.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesK
That's all of the details I'll share here, for obvious or not so obvious reasons.
F'ing well done Ed. One day I hope to say thanks and bid respects in person. Well done Sir.
Excellent news. Glad Edd was in the right place at the right time.
glad everyone is safe, ill be waiting for the full story in hopes I can learn something.
Did i read that correctly? One person came up with two students lost in a silt out? As in their instructor?...i sure hope not.
Edd is a complete stud, just total awesomeness that we aren't reading about a double fatality.
Thanks for sharing what you could. Your first post was very captivating and made me want more info. Now I want even more!Quote:
Originally Posted by diveongas
Agreed 110%.Quote:
Originally Posted by jxh2297
I think just by what I interpreted is that Edd had a class, and it was three OW divers that caused the issue, not in a class. I could obviously be very wrong on this. However, your last sentence is spot on!Quote:
Originally Posted by mdax
Well done Edd. Glad to hear it was an avoided tragedy.
Edd's the man!
I had just arrived when it started, I hung around long enough to try to make my 02 bottle and other equipment available if needed, tried to stay out of the way. I don't think it had anything to do with open water guys, all had full cave gear, I think they were on their way out, in the chimney when a linkup was made, Beyond that I need to keep my thoughts / opinions to myself as I wasn't real impressed with what I think I saw go down, but surely I'm wrong, when you are on the outside looking in and only get half the story, often it's wrong. I decided to call the dive for that day and left when it became obvious that I couldn't be of any assistance.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesK
I will bring up for what's it's worth that Edd is one hell of a resource for that area, I'm sure any expenses from this type of thing, he has to "eat".
The local emergency response guy's were phenomenal, within what seemed like seconds there was a fire truck, ambulance with the stretcher at the water side, and you could hear life flight coming for quite aways away, they had that helicopter at max tq. getting there, I don't think I have ever seen such a full bore response for what might be an emergency / bad outcome before, I'm real impressed with the local emergency response people in Jackson County, thy too need to somehow be thanked.
It is not often someone has a chance to so directly affect the lives of two other people and their families. Well done Edd, they owe you everything.
Of course I don't want any speculation made, I would just like to know the entire story when it finally comes out. Not so any fingers can be pointed, but just so he speculation is killed, we here the true story, and we can all learn from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
It is great that everyone responded as quick as they did. That is phenomenal.
I would really like to hear the story from Edd's perspective. How he was feeling and what were his thoughts during the whole ordeal. I guess that I am very curious as to how he actually found the divers. I think this knowledge may be of benefit to other divers as well as myself.
I think if I'm not mistaken maybe Edd didn't find them, I think maybe they weren't very far in, maybe 400', in a very tight passage. They were all BM. I think one got separated from the rest, couldn't find them or maybe couldn't fit through the restriction? ALL of this is speculation, it is NOT necessarily fact, I was not in the cave, but on the outside by the diving board and just listening. I did not talk to any of them, just listened while they were in the water, I left before they got out. Anyway I think these two got their act together, figured things out and were on their way out themselves, someone, not Edd I think joined up with them in the chimney. They surfaced with I think 1000 and 1100 PSI respectively. That is NOT to take anything away from Edd, given a couple of more minutes, I'm sure he would have found them, but JB isn't small, and there are a few jumps pretty close to the beginning. God forbid, but if I ever need anyone to come for me, Edd is on a very short list of people whom I hope will be coming.
Of course I could be wrong on all of this, so do not take this as anything but an opinion, I too am very interested on hearing what really went down and how it went.
So were the "lost" divers participating in a class or not? I think that IS important.
Edd found the two, widely separated in silted-out passageway.Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
I don't believe he will comment. He is a private kind of guy and is just happy that nobody got hurt and that it is all pretty much, over.
Edd pretty much saved the two guys. One panicked but according to Edd the other was calm, cool and doing what he was suppose to do and searching for the line. I was with Edd after closing and that story was kinda chilling. I wasn't there, so I wont say what happened but I hope this is carefully reviewed. There we're enough training directors present to maybe learn and make sure it doesn't happen again.
I stand corrected, to be honest, I thought it strange when I heard they were found in the chimney and not by Edd, It seemed the only way that could happen was they came out of jump after Edd went past and found their own way out. Seeing as to how he found them widely separated and in a silted out area, they may not have made it without himQuote:
Originally Posted by diveongas
I heard wrong, obviously.
I personally would like to read an analysis ( aka Blueprint type ) of the dive.
John
I'm glad that everybody made it out. Kudos to Edd!
From what I gather a cave instructor abandoned his two students in a silted out side passage and swam out to get help... Turns out it was the right decision at the time after all!
Anyone care to elaborate on what actually happened to get the students to separate from the instructor?
Thank God JB has a lifeguard on duty! Way to go Edd.
Wow. Great to hear everyone is ok. Thanks to all involved!!
Heard about this while at the Outdoor Adventure Show in Toronto... very happy that the outcome was positive, and hardly surprised that Edd brought them out.
At least there is some good news from Cave Country from the weekend.
Way to go Edd, those are three lucky divers and they should buy you a lifetime pass to Madison's. Everyone else, kindly listen to El Jefe when an emergency is going down and stay out of the water and out of the way. I have no idea what happened but I do know that there are at least 19 lines in the first couple of hundred feet of JB and it's pretty easy to get turned around.
Thank God!!!! That Edd was there, and that Edd is . . . well, the best you can wish for!Quote:
Originally Posted by diveongas
:clapper
Gosh, I hope the story is revealed! I want to be the kind of diver that *never* needs Edd, or others of the IUCRR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Carlisle
(Sorry, love ya Edd and Rob and Kevin, but never want to need ya!)
From hence forth, Edd is the "new" Chuck Norris.
If they made Edd Sorenson pajamas, Chuck would wear them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizard
Edd doesn't dive in caves, caves build themselves around Edd.
You know, all this "Edd is Superman" chatter is fun, but there is a side here that, in my opinion at least, needs to be acknowledged.
It is wonderful that Edd was there and able to have a positive impact. Edd has experience and developed skill sets that many off us will never have the opportunity to hone to the same degree. Edd did what he could, and this time it was enough.
I have no insight to how this situation developed, nor will I speculate,
Even though we generally try to execute dives to minimize risk, sometimes the $&!+ just hits the fan, and Edd can't always be there. If/when it does for you,remember the training, remember the drills, remember the practice, these tools that can be real game changers.
Panic can be a game changer to, just please don't be that guy.
Going through my mind over and over is how easily a rescue can come up short, and how that can suck for a long long time.
Done with my ramblings, so, "Thanks to Edd and any others involved for putting one in the win column!"
+1 ....was there with a friend who was getting kitted up in a new nomad. We stayed out of the way until it was over, check-in to JB was on lockdown during the incident. Was great for us to both get a big smiling bear hug from Edd after he finished his talks with those involved. We decided that we'd dive another day. Comments and speculation wont come from us, other than "WELL DONE EDD!!!"Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
Based on the discussion / lack thereof on this and other recent accidents / close calls I can only come to the conclusion that accident/incident analysis is no longer a part of cave diving. Oh well...
Huh? What's to discuss?Quote:
Originally Posted by NEON
We have VERY limited information so far. Discussion will be a lot more fruitful once some FACTS come out. Who was the mysterious third diver? What training did everyone have? How did they get off the line in the first place? Why were they in a side tunnel? Etc etc etc.
"Analysis" should be conducted carefully and based on facts, not merely a bunch of hypotheses and guesses.
That said, I think there'll be some fairly ordinary lessons here. Not sure what they'll be but I doubt it'll be anything we haven't seen before.
And if an instructor WAS involved I hope the agencies don't blow the incident off.
Way to go Edd!!!!!
Do you actually dive or just #### on everyone who does?Quote:
Originally Posted by NEON
There's nothing to analyze here (yet). There may never be unless the divers involved step up and report what happened. Its not Edd's place to come in here all preachy with a "report" either, even with the names redacted.
I'm glad they were found alive and extricated. In the absence of more information I will continue to dive as I was taught, or at least try to.
Suprised? Aside from a complete report on the WKPP incident and as much can be made available without any actual gas analysis from the MX incident recently, every other incident within however many years has simply been shut down as far as accident analysis goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by NEON
The bigger suprise is that it seems the majority of the cave community is perfectly OK with this.
Richard, from my understanding the instructor is on the board, so we have a first hand account if they wanted to share, as well as multiple people on site that day. I think due to the fact that aside from Jim Miller's passing, Richard Monk's passing, and the recent bad gas in MX, the fact that the majority of accidents these days have been smothered causes people to jump the gun. In this case, I would expect a few more days to hear a complete analysis, but I think that we need to be understanding of those that show frustration at how recent accidents have been dealt with.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjack
Keeping up with students is the most basic skill expected of a cave instructor. At the very least, I would think the agency the instructor was teaching for would demand a report and make it available with names censored. Hopefully they step up.
I am looking at this a little differently than most of ya'all.
It seems to me that regardless of how the incident was caused, our who was a fault, it happened. I am quite content to assume that either someone made a mistake or rules were broken for this to occur. I do not think that an accident analysis will do anything to change my diving or my approach to it.
I would be much more interested in a statement from the point of view of the search/rescue diver (Edd in this instance). It is my opinion that this information could be useful to many cave divers if they were ever in a similar situation. Heck, it might be benefical to a persons self rescue also.
If I am out of line with this post, I apoligize in advance but I am very curious and am seeking insight on this matter.
Why so rude rjack? What part of my statement do you actually disagree with??? How much I dive has little to do with the nature of this particular discourse - why trying to belittle me?
You might have never been taught much if everyone in the past approached accidents the same way you just did.
Just to make things clear - I do not expect Edd to come over and provide a report.
My understanding is that there were a lot of people present that have a good idea as to what happened but opted to keep their mouths shut. I have always respected families and divers when people got injured or worse. Here we have some bruised egos...
All agencies have it in their standards that instructors must report incidents they witness or are involved in, so if there was an instructor involved it should be reported. However, I doubt any of the agencies would release a report even with names redacted. It's the same as making a complaint against an employee. The employer might handle it appropriately but they will never tell the complainant how it was handled. It would be interesting to know how an instructor lost students if that is what happened,Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
I believe it is a wise choice of the individuals with knowledge of the incident but no direct involvement to allow the parties directly involved to step up and offer the details.Quote:
Originally Posted by NEON
If you go back and read this thread you will see accounts of divers who were there but had details wrong. I have heard the story from two people and while the general theme was correct there were differences in the details. Since it is the details that usually get analyzed to death I believe it is prudent to allow someone with the most accurate details to post the information.
I have found the incident analysis section of this forum to be one of the most useful. The reason is that we get to hear first hand what happened to the person involved from the person involved leaving little room for speculation and hearsay. We have a not so common chance here to learn.
As a newcomer to this beautiful underwater world and in the infancy of learning, I feel I am in a position of mercy (somewhat) to those who have the experience and knowledge and desire to teach me. This relationship is based on an enormous amount of trust, not only with me and the instructor but also with the organization that puts their stamp on the instructors card.. If the instructor is at fault in this occurrence and/or any other . HOW WOULD I FIND THE INFORMATION..OF COURSE I WANT THE BEST FOR ME!! If an organization should cover such a incident up....WTF!!! After reading the threads this is CERTAINLY A REAL concern for me.
I commend you Edd...what color life saver are you?
Agreed. I'm not so interested in naming names or airing someone else's dirty laundry, but I'd really like to know what led up to a separation, and what happened between then, and the point that it was decided to go for help.Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
If nothing else, three people owe Edd a steak dinner...
or a prime rib dinner with chocolate cake :)
As much as I'd like to have some sort of accident analysis, I can't blame people for not wanting to air their flaws, mistakes, oversights, whatever on the internet. If someone wants to share, great. If not, I am not upset that I'm missing some crucial secret piece of information here which is the difference between my own life and death. Demanding or expecting that people open up their failed dive to public monday morning quarterbacking is just plain rude.Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
Exactly, I don't think anything about this is going to change the basic rules here. If instructors want to privately share their issues and strategies for maintaining control of their classes that's probably a good thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsix36
So expecting a statement from a training agency or merely a report of what could have been done to avoid a potentially fatal accident strikes you as rude but covering it all up is just fine???
I think it was this discrete private sharing of information that Sheck once busted with The Blueprint for Survival as it did little good to the community.
Times have changed, sadly...
What has sadly changed is the existence of the internet. Before the internet, we usually didn't even know there was an accident for days, and analysis was left up to people like Sheck Exley, who published a book years after the accidents.Quote:
Originally Posted by NEON
This childish stomping of the foot, and saying "I want it NOW" will not do anything but make the situation worse. It has gotten to the point that anyone involved with an accident will never say a word, for fear they will be flamed for weeks or even years afterward.
I don't know of any reputable agency that would cover up an incident. The agencies I teach through would handle a situation according to policy and local laws. They have no obligation to make any of this public though.Quote:
Originally Posted by CindyLou777
+1!Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Golden Geese beat the #### out of squirrels
Sheck is dead, quit using him as a scapegoat.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Nobody else is really doing any accident analysis, years later or not. If accident analysis is a good thing(and I think it is), the internet is a tool that can get the message across much quicker than writing, publishing, and distributing a book.
They won't cover it up, but they surely don't promote accident analysis despite it being taught in the curriculum.Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
The people this happened to are sitting home, feeling happy to be alive, and likely thinking about.whether or not to report on it firsthand. There may also be a career at stake. They read these forums and know they might get chewed up, and it may be a rough thing to face to a hungry for info community. But we are a community, one that needs to.learn. So I for one will act like a community member and give these folks a chance to catch their breaths, kiss their families,talk internally, and hopefully they all or in part will come forward and share so we can all learn. I'll be patient and hope that they step forward.and brave this forum of peers so we can all be safer. THAT COURAGE to step up and admit fault and learn from it and seek acceptance from one's peers is brave, as I'm sure these divers know that every move will be analyzed.
I hope they settle in, kiss family, get level headed, and give their accounts and I hope we all provide them with a positive reception for doing so.
Lets be honest here, whenever someone has stepped up and offered first hand information, they DO get community support. Even the WKPP(who everyone loves to hate) got nothing but accolades when they stepped forward after a recent accident.Quote:
Originally Posted by DogHouseDiver
Yep, I'm just giving them a.few more days before assuming no one will talk. The instructor may want to report to his agency first, etc. I believe a report is "due" to the community, but.I'm realistic about timing and how this may.have.shaken them up. If two weeks go by and we hear nothing I would again be disappointed.... But since no one was hurt, I'm optimistic that we may see a firsthand account on this one.
I've been trained to do aviation accident analysis, and have sat on some accident review boards. Even though it's not done here "by the book" and with a checklist, you'd be surprised how well it's done here. Accident analysis is based on "common sense" because we all do it whether we realize it or not, it's how even children learn. A child sticks their hand on a hot stove, feels pain, determines the stove is the cause of the pain, decides not to touch stove again, one trial learning, but it's accident analysis too isn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn
Yes there are opinions, Ego's, and some financial incentives here, but there is in an aircraft accident investigation as well. Any investigation steps on some toes, often the wrong ones, and feelings are sometimes hurt, but you do learn from them.
One of the first things you learn in accident analysis, is that accidents are almost always a chain of events, break one link and the accident doesn't happen.
It's comforting for us to say, I'd never do that, I wouldn't let that happen to me, but sometimes it does, and sometimes the reason it is a close call as opposed to an accident is training that is imposed as a result from an accident analysis.
Oh, and in reflection, any Cop will tell you, eye witnesses are almost always wrong, whatever that's worth. I was anyway.
But, an analysis of any "near miss" often yields more useful data than an investigation of a fatality, because the dead can't talk.
I hate to point out the obvious "there may be a career at stake"...well dang there should be. If an instructor lost his students in jb in a silt out then not only should students be warned away but the instructor also needs to take a GOOD hard look at their motivations and abilities while taking a long break from teaching cave diving. I have no experience as an instructor, however as a consumer of their services losing students in a silt out is just totally unsat. Did they perform a lost buddy(s) search?
I'd take a bet with anyone here(pm'ing me to confirm your bet is necessary to get in on the action) 20 says the agencies do nothing to this instructor at all. People will gnash teeth and point to legalese crap that limits their actions in charters and such. I don't think it's really that different than other professional organizations, you damn well have to commit a felony to get thrown out of the bar or lose a medical license....funny you mention the wkpp/gue as they are the only agency i can think of that may stop an instructor who does something like this from teaching.
Okay, non-cave-diver disclaimer . . . I do not understand this need to quickly place blame, especially on an instructor. Last time I looked, an instructor is NOT God, and therefore cannot control everthing . . . It sounds like the lost students were trained well, but one panicked.Now, help out a newb to understand. For some reason, there was a silt-out. I would SWAG that the instructor immediately did a lost buddy drill on a line from the mainline . . . not finding the students, he called for help. I'm not finding much wrong with that.One student was doing the right thing, with a lost line search. Kudos to him/her. The other panicked Not in the instructor's control.What do you think the instructor should have done? Stayed in until his air was low? I think calling for help was the very best thing, from my uneducated thoughts.
Sorry for the run-on . . . the new-line isn't being kept.
Sure, the cave diving community analyzes, but 90% of the time we have to do so with very little to no information since none of the agencies seem to think that accident analysis is for anyone but the police.Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
Alot of people complain that accident analysis on the internet only results in baseless speculation. Thats absolutely true, because the cave diving community is denied the facts to make proper accident analysis possible. How friggin sideways is that?
I'd be very surprised if this wasn't exactly what is happening. My husband is an OW instructor, and I can tell you that even there, every single thing that doesn't go smoothly and that even might have presented a risk to a student's wellbeing is exhaustively reviewed and ruminated over. It is one of the fundamental concepts of scuba instruction to retain CONTROL of the students . . . if this instructor lost that, I'll BET he's asking himself if he wants to continue to teach.Quote:
If an instructor lost his students in jb in a silt out then not only should students be warned away but the instructor also needs to take a GOOD hard look at their motivations and abilities while taking a long break from teaching cave diving
I have enormous respect for the people who take on the responsibility of teaching cave and technical diving. Even more than OW diving, they put themselves in positions where both their students and the instructor can be at significant risk. I'm amazed anyone is willing to do it. Having been the student who put a class (through accident) in a situation where the instructor later confessed to a friend that he was asking himself if he even wanted to teach any more, I actually empathize with this guy.
of course he/she can't control everything. Oh jax, it may be because you don't have cave training. As a cave diver i expect the following from my partner/instructor or anyone i would go into the cave with. It's called a "lost buddy procedure" in cave diving. Every agency teaches a variant of it.
This procedure is a key part of cave dive training.
1. puts an arrow on the line
2. visually search for buddy
3. recalculates gas to know how long they have to search
4. attaches spool to arrow and searches until they are complete with #2. THEN leaves a flashlight on the line indicating they have left the cave.
While it worked out wonderfully that Edd was able to save the others, and believe me Edd is the MAN, there is no future in this paradigm(fleeing for help)...you MUST help yourself and your buddy when in the cave. Looks like the instructor panicked and bailed....That's a no go.
Jax: I think about these "what if" scenarios on nearly every dive. What if this diver suddenly loses it. What if they have a bladder rupture and land in the mud zero'ing vis. What if it's too tight for their comfort and they freak out. If this diver has a burst disk go RIGHT NOW, will he/she panick, or will he/she have the composure to pull it together and survive. If my answers to these questions are that the diver would freak, then I've done a poor job, they have advanced farther than they should have in the curriculum and they are literally in over their head.
So here's what I've figured out so far....
It's my job to know how they are going to respond long before we get into that position. I have 4 classes and many hours with these student with increasing difficulty and challenges. I believe that if I've done my job right there should be little if nothing at all, that they can't overcome without panicking. With all that said, I'm not leaving a student in a cave, unless they are A. Able to outswim me (which is unlikely) or B. Just refuse to follow me and even then, i'm relatively certain i'd drag them out by their hair if need be.
I don't know who the instructor was, and know very few facts of this case, but if the student freaked out and did the complete opposite of what he was told to do, you can't blame the instructor.Quote:
Originally Posted by mdax
I understand the proper lost buddy drill. In this case, it sounds like a total siltout. the visual stuff and light stuff would be pretty worthless at that moment in time. We do not KNOW that the instructor did not leave a light on the main line.Quote:
Originally Posted by mdax
Maybe, the instructor's eval said - I need help in here NOW, because I am not confident I will find them within my current air capacity. I don't know how total a siltout it might be in JB, especially as people have posted about the low flow.
Again, I ask, what should s/he have done? Assume, massive silt-out, that the instructor tied off a line and did a quick check of the area . . .
+1!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
There are certain factors that an instructor should have control over. Such as allowing his students to go into an area that he's unfamiliar with...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax
If this was a factor in this incident, then the instructor should hold atleast some blame.
to be clear, what i expect the instructor/partner/buddy to do is to search for their team members until they reach the pressure calculated in step 3. Based on the little information we have it doesn't seem that step was completed.
However these are just things i hold my buddy accountable for...an instructor should be able to retain control, not panic and manage these situations to an even higher degree. I would expect an instructor to pull off a lost buddy drill with a silting out scared diver every single time....they may not be able to wrestle the diver out, or find them...but i'd expect an instructors lost buddy drill for their students to be damn good, executed without panic. Maybe i'm a minority in this perspective; i just don't think it's unreasonable to expect this of instructors teaching cave diving.
Yes you can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
The instructor leaves, panicked, and calls Edd. Edd enters and finds them, and leads them out.
They exit with 1100 psi
So... WHAT THE HELL WAS THE INSTRUCTOR'S TANK PRESSURE???
Remember years ago we had a long thread on what psi one should exit with when losing a buddy. These guys were close to the exit. No instructor worth their salt should have CONSIDERED exiting until their gas hit 1100 or so.
This guy probably EXITED with over 2000.
...####. Now I've started the guessing game! But my first thought when I read this was, why did the first person leave so early?
Not only should he not instruct, he shouldn't even cave dive. Assuming of course that my assumptions are correct.
So, if I understand correctly, the instructor should base his exit on time / gas, not on "I executed my search tasks without finding the students, so I need to call for reinforcements."?Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
What if he couldn't physically follow?Quote:
Originally Posted by mdax
BTW - thanks a lot for this discussion! I learn a lot from others' views.
What are the chances that reinforcements will be there? This was a very fortuitous situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax
Then he had no right to take his students there. No instructor should ever be instructing in a cave he doesn't know backwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn
Agreed 100%Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
Please note that the two students are alive, the instructor is alive and Edd is alive, thus it might have been the perfect solution for the incident.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitecrowro
That sounds good, but "All's well that ends well." isn't a good way to learn a lesson.
The fact remains that none of us have all the facts. How about we just wait until we truly find out what happened instead of playing this guessing who to point the finger at game.
Facts? What's the fun in that?
...and hopefully the facts actually come out, unlike what typically occurs.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesK
LOL!! Point taken Jeff!
I agree. I hope they do as well. However, these things do take time, and somethings are kept from public knowledge for reasons beyond our control. Maybe that is just the military in me talking. LOL..Quote:
Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benderr
It will have to be at Madisons, Edd's favorite sit-down resturant in Marianna, AND, where Edd goes Stacey goes!Quote:
Originally Posted by cmufieldhockey8
The agencies shouldn't teach about accident analysis, if they don't intend to allow it to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesK
Nobody should ##### about early speculation, until the cave community reverses the normality that information will NOT be made available.
Not looking to point a finger, James; I just want to hear from others what they think should have happened, given the excrement hit the oscillator.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesK
Who is to say the agency is not doing an AA on this and other events and just not sharing it? Now don't get me wrong, I am on your side in this.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn
Don't use big words with me. LOL. I understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax
Forgive my inability to keep up with you all, but where did it say the incident was an instructor and two students?
How many have been lost, stuck, silted out, off the line, loss of gas, equipment failure, etc., and NOT reported it? With the way people get thrashed around here, buy those simply looking for drama, I would be tempted to keep my mouth shut too.
The most useful course of action for those involved would be to all submit (to a moderator) individual reports on the entire incident. The reports can be anonymously posted to the IRAP section. The thread should then be locked. No drama, just data. Everyone can make their own conclusion and decisions regarding their own diving.
This is all I have seen regarding students.Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyJersey
I chalked it up to being a typo until further data was released.Quote:
Originally Posted by diveongas
It was, there I said it.Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyJersey
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesK
+1.... I don't want to push those involved away from posting a report here by making a lot of assumptions, assigning a lot of blame, etc.
I want to encourage them to tell us, but if we beat them up before they have a chance to collect themselves and tell their story, they may never participate.
We have a chance to learn from this because everyone survived. I encourage those involved to report in to us and I for one won't dogpile them in my discussion.
Much better chance to learn than asking recovery divers how they found the bodies.
Good ol boys keeping secrets at the expense of everyone else learning from the mistakes of others. It's a real shame.
Since there are 10 pages analyzing a situation that may or may not have happened, why not just come up with a different scenario each week and let everyone have their run with it. The learning seems to come from the disucssion and differnces in opinion and how to handle the situation.
I learn something from everyones thoughts, whether I agree with them or not.
Nine pages? Really?
Cave diving is not some governmental operation that functions under freedom of information rules. You have no right to know anything. If the people involved are generous enough to tell you of their incidents, be grateful, but don't continue to bash the hell out of anyone else that believes that their misery is none of your business. It isn't.
The same goes for the IUCRR reports. They list what they see in a snapshot of a recovery operation. This is not investigative reporting. You wonder why they are reluctant to release anything? Read the last 4 or 5 pages, that's why.
I will agree that the WKPP was a class act for openly discussing their member's accident a few months ago, and I do wish everyone would set the same example, but personal liberty and a right to privacy exists. If I was one of the divers this last weekend, after reading this tripe, I would tell you all to F.O.
ps - It is a good thing they didn't drown, Edd would have really been pissed.
OFG. Edd wasn't exactly happy :-)
It's an incident that went well. Let it grow famous. Or we got used to learn only from death ending stories?!
+1 I wouldn't be surprised if these guys are still trying to come to terms with and still trying to sort through what happened. I've had some close calls (not cave diving) that have given me a few sleepless nights. Sometimes you don't realize how close of a call it was until its over and you sit down and think about what just happened. Even the people involved here probably didn't realize how bad it was until it was over. Do you think the students knew their instructor had left the cave?Quote:
Originally Posted by DogHouseDiver
This was a really bad situation that had a really good ending and a lot of stuff had to go just right to get that ending.
I completely agreeQuote:
Originally Posted by DogHouseDiver
I agree completely. If people would be willing to talk about hypothetical situations, the finger pointing would be a lot less.Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyJersey
When it comes to accident analysis, it has to be based on facts, not assumptions or guesses. And the length of this thread proves that people aren't willing to wait for facts. And some are angry that facts are not available immediately. Patience is a lost art, probably fueled by the lack of facts that ever come out. But shouting at the rain doesn't do anything.
In very basic form, accident analysis will only tell you one of two things. Either standards were violated and caused the accident, or they weren't violated and something else caused it. In the first case, there is really nothing to be learned. Let it go, stop finger pointing, and reinforce your own training.
It is only in the second case that there MAY be something to learn, and might ultimately involve a change in training standards.
Those who have already decided without first-hand facts that
a) the incident involved students in a teaching situation
b) the instructor abandoned the students
c) the instructor did so without valid reason (medical, etc)
have already done their analysis. Facts will only confuse them, and their goal is not to further cave diving knowledge for safety, but only to blame someone and make sure s/he is ridiculed and punished. That is not accident analysis IMHO.
I can't imagine an instructor bailing out. The agencies involved really need a full report on this one.
For me knowing what happened, wasn't me so I really don't need to know the details. May help, may not. It's not my call.
But it sends shivers down my back. This was a miracle that the right person did the right thing at the right time.
God bless you Edd!
Well said. I have seen this same thing in my life outside of cave diving. I am AA trained by the Army. One of the things we learned is not jumping to conclusions or listening to the lookie loos telling us what they think could have happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by kwinter