Another which scooter thread

I like Alan am stuck on one brand, and like Alan it's largely a service / support quality of build thing.
So, Magnus or Viper? I don't think I want a Minnus, and that's mostly a personal, gut feeling sort of thing, I don't like gearboxes, I like keep it simple- stupid, if possible, or said another way, if it's simple and it works, it ain't stupid.
I started down the road of thinking, buy a used N-19, put the Venom electronics in it thereby getting the three speeds and getting an increase in run time from the three speeds, but keeping the NiMH battery until I get some experience and getting the LIPO when and if I needed it, that gives me a scoot that can travel if I ever need that, plus an extra battery if I need that.
But, the value of good used N-19's seems to kind of make this plan not necessarily viable economically, or said in plain English, you can buy a new Viper for about the same money.
Magnus on the other hand is $1,500 bucks more, but is faster and has longer legs. Is it worth the money, is it's speed and range ever needed or is it just wretched excess?

What types of dives do you plan on doing with the scooter? Heinkle or Trash Pile and back or going to the end of gold in Manatee?

One thing to remember about a magnus is it's range us 100% useless without a tow scooter. If you're only buying one, keep that in mind.

I have heard a lot of great things about the Viper, and I just sent my N-19 in for the upgrade. The Minnus is nice, but doesn't have the range. The Magnus is great fun :-D

I have a Magnus and love it, but the others were not options at the time. I'm considering what to get for a backup to replace a Lead Acid scooter, and the decision will most likely come to a Minnus 1.5 and a Viper. They are all great scooters. I wouldn't discount the Minnus on complexity. The 1.5 weighs 10 lbs less than the others.

James, I'm not sure there's a great difference between scooters with a 8 mile range and a 6 mile range. Like most things in cave diving, the decision to bring a tow scooter depends on the dive plan. Hauling more gear than a dive requires is not generally the best idea either. All factors must be considered.

I have an n19 and really like it, plus now with the viper upgrade it goes way further range wise and it is still really small and fast, not to mention tough and simple.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

One thing to remember about a magnus is it's range us 100% useless without a tow scooter. If you're only buying one, keep that in mind.

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I think you are absolutely correct, I have been advised that a Viper with a Mako backup is less money than a Magnus, and you just can't shoot holes in that logic, it's obviously true. Before I get my experience up to the point to where I'd be scootering beyond where I could easily swim out, I'll have a back up scoot, but that's some time from now. If you believe the Tahoe Benchmark, then a cruising Viper has the same range as a Magnus, but there is something flaky there, they say the Magnus battery is something like 746 watt/hour? The range in the Tahoe benchmark is "calculated", not measured I think, that is determine the current draw and divide by the available battery. If of course you either overstate or understate the available battery power, then you range estimates are worthless. So is a Magnus a 746 WH battery, a 950 WH or a 888 WH? Difference between 746 and 950 is significant. I'd bet it's actually closer to 950, but the manufacturer claims 888 being conservative and that's one way to make a good name for yourself, always outperform your advertising. So where did Tahoe get the 746 from? According to them , the Viper is a "bigger" battery than the Magnus?
Range wise what I am after is being able to essentially go to end of the line twice in JB for example, with stages and dragging a back-up scooter, with the idea of doing two dives in one day and I want at least a 25% margin. I do know that if you don't cycle batteries very deeply they last a lot longer, so there is logic in buying more range than you need. I have NO scooter experience, but have other electrical vehicle experience and some LIPO experience. If you have 8 mile range out of the box, figure it's 5 or less actually, because batteries do degrade and unless you can afford to buy a new battery every year you need to be be thinking what will my range be in two years? I want to do my math on a battery that is near the end of it's useful life. I'm assuming a LIPO in this kind of useage will last around three, maybe four years? Pure guessing on my part, you can't go by Hybrid cars as what they do to batteries is nowhere near as stressful.

Well, if you want to save money, buy a UV 26 that also has a UV 18 conversion setup. Either set of batteries will get to to EOL in Jackson, battery replacement on both sets is $400 or less, and you can buy a good used setup for about 1/2 the costs of a new Vyper. I have a N-19, and its a great scooter, but in retrospect, I wish i had taken this advise.

I should clarify that "where did they get 746 from" as it sounds inflammatory and I do not want to sound that way. I am sure the 746 is a measured current draw from on board data gathering equipment and it came from the "Enduro" test, but there must have been something wrong with the battery, or something.

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

what I am after is being able to essentially go to end of the line twice in JB for example...

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JB has electricity at most of the pavilions. I always put my scooter on charge between dives. Just pointing that out.

OFG-1, your right of course I'm sure. I should have also brought up I'm a wimp, or that is due to a Rich Uncle I've had several knee operations and 50 lbs is about the max I can handle, the biggest draw for me to sidemount was I could handle the tanks one at a time.
Money is an issue of course, but it's not the only issue. If it weren't I'd buy a house down in Cave Country with an open field big enough to land in, probably have one in the Bahamas too. Maybe in my next life?
Back to reality, only concern is I don't want to be wishing a year from now that I had gone ahead and paid a little extra and gotten that Magnus.
In theory the range of the Magnus should be at least 25% more than a Viper, I think if I do the math right , the battery is about 12% more capacity, a brushless motor is maybe about 10% or so more efficient than a brushed motor, and there is some, unknown to me higher efficiency because the battery is a higher voltage. I said theory, reality sometimes proves theories wrong, Bumble Bees do fly after all.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

JB has electricity at most of the pavilions. I always put my scooter on charge between dives. Just pointing that out.

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Yes, and as you know so far the Mill Pond is sort of home base for me, but I'm branching out of course, but I could easily just plug the thing into the inverter in my truck or put one in the car, Your right, I could always charge during the surface interval.
I wonder how LIPO batteries take to "surface charging"

The Lithium Polymer batteries in the Viper, Minnus, Minnus 1.5 and the Magnus do take longer to charge than the lead acid batteries. It's more a trickle with the LP charger, whereas you can put 8amps/hr into the LAs. If you're going to do two long dives a day and expect to crank up the charge during your SIT, think LA and not LP. With a Watts Meter (any old meter will actually do) and the larger capacity LPs, charging during your SIT may not be necessary, depending on what you're doing.

My suggestion is to contact Rodney at SS and get his advice. He may lend you a unit to try or you might just rent one from a local shop. With the price of these units, and especially with the battery technology quickly changing, I would suggest you err on the safe side and buy a used older unit until you're ready for those pushes. Also, more and more of the units you are considering will be showing up on the resale market and that means lower price when you're ready. BTW, the SSs do have excellent resale values.

FWIW, I sold my UV-18/26 after 10 years and picked up a Minnus this year (used the resale to help pay for the new one). There really isn't much comparison. The added thrust, lower weight and size, and increased burn time is amazing. Changing speed on the fly is awesome, and I wouldn't go back. You might even consider picking up a Minnus and upgrading to a 1.5 when the time is right.

You mentioned weight. I used to use a hand truck for my 18/26. Now I carry the Minnus in one hand and an AL 40 in the other. No big deal and I'm no spring chicken.

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

... I don't like gearboxes...

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Just a note, the Minnus, Magnus, etc., don't have gears. Yes, you can "mechanically" adjust the speed by varying the prop's pitch. But you change "gears" electronically. The motor's shaft is the prop's shaft. The "shifting" is electronic, simply giving more "juice" for second and third "gears." In other words, the motor just tuns faster for 2nd gear, and even faster for 3rd gear.

Hope this helps.

Magnus = Excess wretched excess!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unless I'm mistaken the Minnus is a high speed brushless motor run through a gear reduction unit, whereas everything else is direct drive. I believe therefore the minnus can have a lighter drive train, motor especially and running at a higher RPM you can get the motor at or near it max efficiency speed. Don't quote me though.
One way the Toyota Prius has such a very long battery life is is the computer never deep cycles the battery. Prius until very recently is a NiMH battery, but principle is the same. A high quality LIPO battery if discharged to 3.8 V per cell has a cycle life limit of about 450 cycles. I think but have not verified that the battery protection circuit of SS LIPO scooters actually may pull the battery further than that. But if a LIPO is only discharged to about 50% of it's capacity before being recharged, you more than double it's life expectancy. So with these LIPO battery replacements costing what they do, it seems that having way more battery capacity than needed is beneficial from the perspective of battery life.
Or at least I have found an excuse to buy more scoot than I need anyway.

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

... running at a higher RPM you can get the motor at or near it max efficiency speed...

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You are thinking of gasoline engines. Electric motors put out the highest torque around stall speed. Look at the prop pitch of a scooter, compared to an airplane. They are just the opposite.

No, I'm not talking about max tq., but the point to where the most work is done relative to the amount of power being supplied, I believe a small brushless motor operating at a relatively high RPM is more efficient in developing the same power output of a larger brushless motor operating at a lower RPM. To get the same power output, you would have to have a larger motor if it's turning at a lower RPM, even with the gear reduction losses, I think the high RPM motor would be more efficient.
But that is what I think without any data, somebody like Rodney would be able to tell us I'd beat as he or another scooter manufacturer would have data surely

That's all pretty accurate.

The Minnus has a gear reduction which allows a much smaller more efficient motor and hence smaller scooter.

However the gearbox does consume some energy so you end up about even for efficiency with a direct drive motor.

Yes LIPO batteries will last longer with shallower discharge... so a larger pack will last longer when doing identical dives. However the small Minnus pack costs less to replace so the choice is not clear cut. The Minnus is perfect of ocean dives and places like Ginnie. But for a dedicated cave scooter I would look to the scooters with larger packs, such as the UV-26, Viper, Magnus or the Minnus 1.5

-Rod

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

Unless I'm mistaken the Minnus is a high speed brushless motor run through a gear reduction unit, whereas everything else is direct drive. I believe therefore the minnus can have a lighter drive train, motor especially and running at a higher RPM you can get the motor at or near it max efficiency speed. Don't quote me though.
One way the Toyota Prius has such a very long battery life is is the computer never deep cycles the battery. Prius until very recently is a NiMH battery, but principle is the same. A high quality LIPO battery if discharged to 3.8 V per cell has a cycle life limit of about 450 cycles. I think but have not verified that the battery protection circuit of SS LIPO scooters actually may pull the battery further than that. But if a LIPO is only discharged to about 50% of it's capacity before being recharged, you more than double it's life expectancy. So with these LIPO battery replacements costing what they do, it seems that having way more battery capacity than needed is beneficial from the perspective of battery life.
Or at least I have found an excuse to buy more scoot than I need anyway.

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Originally Posted by w ripley

Just a note, the Minnus, Magnus, etc., don't have gears.

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Rodney, thanks for the clarification. My bad.

Well I am now the proud owner of a Magnus, can't wait until I've taken the class and can use it.
Now, the real problem, How do you address the "how much did it cost" question from the better half?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

Well I am now the proud owner of a Magnus, can't wait until I've taken the class and can use it.
Now, the real problem, How do you address the "how much did it cost" question from the better half?

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lol...i thought there was a sign at edd's mentioning a mechanism to keep it from a sig other. I am about to trade in my uv26 and upgrade to a magnus as well. Bill (we met at the wakulla event)

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

How do you address the "how much did it cost" question from the better half?

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You say, "Dear, I guess I need to buy you some jewelry, because I just spent over a thousand dollars on a dive scooter."

Rodney,
Thanks, I will be doing some boat diving with the Magnus, but it's being bought for the caves, if I were doing more boat diving the Minnus would be number one on my list.
To all, partially I wasn't looking at a Minnus because apparently they are so popular, you have to get on a waiting list for one, I believe all that there are, are already spoken for. I didn't mean to sound as if I were "knocking" the product, but I didn't want to wait.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

You say, "Dear, I guess I need to buy you some jewelry, because I just spent over a thousand dollars on a dive scooter."

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Funny you should say that, Although no figure was brought up, she did bring up a ring she had seen, I'm not kidding either that happened. I am taking her out to eat tonight but maybe I should enquire about the ring? Ring maybe cheaper than a Lawyer?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

Well I am now the proud owner of a Magnus, can't wait until I've taken the class and can use it.
Now, the real problem, How do you address the "how much did it cost" question from the better half?

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Be creative. Tell her that you got it to make it safer for you to dive. Or just lie about the cost :-D

Whatever you do, don't mention to her that you paid MORE than I paid for my Winnebago and dive trailer COMBINED. :rollguy

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Whatever you do, don't mention to her that you paid MORE than I paid for my Winnebago and dive trailer COMBINED. :rollguy

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I ain't buying that, you may be a real wheeler / dealer but nobody's that good.
Well off to eat

Good luck! LOL.. If you end up divorced can I have the scooter?

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

You say, "Dear, I guess I need to buy you some jewelry, because I just spent over a thousand dollars on a dive scooter."

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No, the correct phrase would be "dear, I just bought us both scooters." Any other statement will be properly translated as "Dear, I just bought YOU a scooter. May I carry it to the water for you?"

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

Well I am now the proud owner of a Magnus, can't wait until I've taken the class and can use it.
Now, the real problem, How do you address the "how much did it cost" question from the better half?

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What we have here is a perfect example of execution without a complete plan in place.

Or will it be "an execution" because a complete plan was not in place?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

Well I am now the proud owner of a Magnus, can't wait until I've taken the class and can use it.
Now, the real problem, How do you address the "how much did it cost" question from the better half?

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Unfortunantly my other half already knew how much they go for . . . so. . . 5 days before I ordered my viper (that I am impatiently awaiting) I ordered new furniture for her quilting room as a distraction. Too bad she realized the multiple of 10 difference in price.

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Originally Posted by diveconjeff

What we have here is a perfect example of execution without a complete plan in place.

Or will it be "an execution" because a complete plan was not in place?

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Sort of like "Ready, Fire, Aim"

So far I took he out to eat is all, So far, I have been able to dodge the bullet of "how much did it cost". I did tel her I was going to buy a Toy before I did it.
The way things are going, I'm afraid in ten years I won't be able to do what I can now, and I don't want to be too old wishing I had done things, I didn't. Still haven't jumped out of an airplane though, maybe someday.

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

...Still haven't jumped out of an airplane though, maybe someday.

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Why would ANYONE want to jump out of a perfectly good airplane? :-D

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Originally Posted by FW

Why would ANYONE want to jump out of a perfectly good airplane? :-D

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I don't know, I've spent the majority of my life ensuring they stay up there, just to see what the falling is like I guess? I wouldn't want to do static line, if I did it, I would want to free fall, although I've been led to understand you don't really get the falling feeling unless you jumping from something that essentially isn't moving like BASE jumping or helicopter or balloon. Probably never do it though, already have bad knees and an arthritic back.

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Originally Posted by FW

Why would ANYONE want to jump out of a perfectly good airplane? :-D

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I wouldn't consider most of the sky diving jump ships to be "perfectly good" and always thought if the pilot has a chute then it's prolly for a good reason!! :D

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Originally Posted by FW

Why would ANYONE want to jump out of a perfectly good airplane? :-D

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For the same reason someone would want to crawl through two miles of mud underground hauling SCUBA gear, to swim through 95 feet of submerged passage....it's fun!! :D

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Originally Posted by sskasser

For the same reason someone would want to crawl through two miles of mud underground hauling SCUBA gear, to swim through 95 feet of submerged passage....it's fun!! :D

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2 miles..... I wish!

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Originally Posted by sskasser

For the same reason someone would want to crawl through two miles of mud underground hauling SCUBA gear, to swim through 95 feet of submerged passage....it's fun!! :D

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You left out the six-inch visibility.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

...six-inch visibility.

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In a Yorkshire accent: "Luxury"

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

You left out the six-inch visibility.

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Nah, we had double that!

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

So far I took he out to eat is all, So far, I have been able to dodge the bullet of "how much did it cost". I did tel her I was going to buy a Toy before I did it.
The way things are going, I'm afraid in ten years I won't be able to do what I can now, and I don't want to be too old wishing I had done things, I didn't. Still haven't jumped out of an airplane though, maybe someday.

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I hear ya. I am laying the ground work with the sig other for building a plane, before I get too old to enjoy flying it. It makes even an expensive scooter loook cheap.

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Originally Posted by T. Bix

I wouldn't consider most of the sky diving jump ships to be "perfectly good" and always thought if the pilot has a chute then it's prolly for a good reason!! :D

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I used to fly for a sky diving club and the plane, like most jump planes in small clubs was old and tired and did not inspire loads of confidence. On one particular flight about a week after a Beech 18 crashed with a load of jumpers we were climbing to jump altitude and I was leaning the mixture for a little more power (field elevation was at 4,000' already). I leaned it just a bit too far causing the engine to run a bit rough for a second or so. The jumpers were obviously sensitized by the press coverage as I found my self dealing with a sudden trim change and then noted I was now alone in the aircraft. At least we were circling the drop zone so they were not landing in the local wal-mart parking lot.

Sky divers are an odd bunch who make cave divers look pretty normal.

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

I hear ya. I am laying the ground work with the sig other for building a plane, before I get too old to enjoy flying it. It makes even an expensive scooter loook cheap.

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OMG, Larry has finally lost his mind! Mine took me over 16 years to finish...

Attachment 5861

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Originally Posted by FW

OMG, Larry has finally lost his mind! Mine took me over 16 years to finish...

Attachment 5861

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Is it ever really finished? :)

I've never built a plane, but have lots of experience building & restoring wooden boats. The concept of "finished" seems to refer to a very brief point in time; between completion to the point where it can be used for its intended purpose, and the onset of never-ending maintenence, repair, and periodic restoration. I bet planes are the same, if not more so!

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Originally Posted by MORGAN

Is it ever really finished? :)

I've never built a plane, but have lots of experience building & restoring wooden boats. The concept of "finished" seems to refer to a very brief point in time; between completion to the point where it can be used for its intended purpose, and the onset of never-ending maintenence, repair, and periodic restoration. I bet planes are the same, if not more so!

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Yea, a project is never really finished. I have to work on mine this weekend :roll:

I'm an A&P/IA and work at a place that manufacturers Crop Dusters, so I have readily available everything any Home Builder could dream of, and I can't bring myself to build an airplane. I've got two airplanes, an 83 Maule that I have recovered, new interior, engine etc. and a 46 Cessna C-140 that I stalled out half way through it's restoration, it's flyable, I just quit on it.
You start building an airplane, your going to quit cave diving, unless maybe your retired and have one heck of an income. If you want to fly, buy an airplane.
Building an airplane to fly is like building your own re-breather. (an opinion of course)

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

Building an airplane to fly is like building your own re-breather.

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Who does that bring to mind? :smt017

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Originally Posted by FW

OMG, Larry has finally lost his mind! Mine took me over 16 years to finish...

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Yes, but most sane people wouldn't try to build a Defiant.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Who does that bring to mind? :smt017

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I can't even imagine :rollguy

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

You start building an airplane, your going to quit cave diving, unless maybe your retired and have one heck of an income. If you want to fly, buy an airplane...

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Larry, read this! I took 16 years off from cave diving while I built the plane. The rebreather took a lot less time :-D

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Yes, but most sane people wouldn't try to build a Defiant.

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Very true! :roll: