Lafayette Blue update

I got "first Bell" on Opening Day, Friday 7/1....

The Rangers were quite suprised to see me (actually, to see ANYBODY)...met Ranger Stan, who I was told is the primary Ranger.

Diving will be allowed as soon as the River recedes and the system clears; the Natural Bridge is only about 1-2 feet under by my eye.

BEST NEWS! While there were no boils evident, I saw (unlike a week earlier) siphons at both Snake and Green, proof that the level IS dropping. I'm betting that nearly a whole generation of Cavers is around now who have never had the pleasure of diving the downstream part of this magnificent and historic System.

Norm

Sounds good. What are the Lafayette Blue dive rules? You know....# of teams per day, where can you put in, etc. I remember something listed in the last few months but I thought those were not finalized.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Angie Reim

Sounds good. What are the Lafayette Blue dive rules? You know....# of teams per day, where can you put in, etc. I remember something listed in the last few months but I thought those were not finalized.

---

Angie,

(BTW, SO good to met you FtF, AAFAIAC, you are STILL Prime for the "Ladies of the Springs Calendar... :P )

I haven't heard of ANY proposed rules at yet; in Truth, I missed the first two formative CSO meetings...I think Kelley was there, and if he sees this, hopefully he can provide fill.

My days diving there were in the "open land" phase of LB's history.

Norm

I've dived that system a few times during the past few years(via Kitty Sink and Trap Sink) and the visibility was rarely good because there's usually a lot of particulate in the water.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainSpeleo

I've dived that system a few times during the past few years(via Kitty Sink and Trap Sink) and the visibility was rarely good because there's usually a lot of particulate in the water.

---

Ditto, I don't think this system ever really has "great" vis. Best I have ever had was around 30ish feet "maybe", but for us that don't mind the lower vis it's a fun system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mmcauliffe

Ditto, I don't think this system ever really has "great" vis. Best I have ever had was around 30ish feet "maybe", but for us that don't mind the lower vis it's a fun system.

---

I have done a fair number of dives at Skiles Sink, well upstream of Kitty and Trapp, but have never been in at Kitty or Trapp. It's a pretty interesting cave, and I have done some very interesting dives there...and found some areas that are not on any map I've seen, but are lined. The lines are quite old, so who knows who put them in there.

Mike

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mmcauliffe

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainSpeleo

I've dived that system a few times during the past few years(via Kitty Sink and Trap Sink) and the visibility was rarely good because there's usually a lot of particulate in the water.

---

Ditto, I don't think this system ever really has "great" vis. Best I have ever had was around 30ish feet "maybe", but for us that don't mind the lower vis it's a fun system.

---

You should have seen it in the early '80's...50-70' in the lower portions was nominal...

Norm

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikeH

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mmcauliffe

Ditto, I don't think this system ever really has "great" vis. Best I have ever had was around 30ish feet "maybe", but for us that don't mind the lower vis it's a fun system.

---

I have done a fair number of dives at Skiles Sink, well upstream of Kitty and Trapp, but have never been in at Kitty or Trapp. It's a pretty interesting cave, and I have done some very interesting dives there...and found some areas that are not on any map I've seen, but are lined. The lines are quite old, so who knows who put them in there.

Mike

---

<g>

I think that if you look at some of the names of the Sinks, you will get the idea of who and when...

Norm

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by normblitch

I think that if you look at some of the names of the Sinks, you will get the idea of who and when...

---

I know the story behind the name of the sink, and I know that there were many of the big names diving the place at the time....but some of the areas are sidemount only, and have newer looking line than the main trunk.

Mike

Well, Norm has been touting it up so much that he got me hooked. I went ahead and ordered (it may even get here before hurricane season is over but I am not holding my breath...) a copy of the map from CDS.

Can't wait to go take a peek :-D

Mike, good to hear you're back on the board, missed you for your birthday (do a quick search we all said Happy Birthday...)

Dive safe,

Celia

I used to dive it on occassion with Bob Messersmith. He showed me a couple of spring tunnels upstream from Skiles sink. I think a couple of photos of them are on my web page. They are very pretty and blue but have that fine white clay bottom. Man you can silt them out faster than you can say 'of poo"! I used to sneak it with Bob, back in the BAD Cindy days.. Cindy :lol:

No Cindy you just got better at hiding the bodies :lol: :lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cindy

I used to dive it on occassion with Bob Messersmith. He showed me a couple of spring tunnels upstream from Skiles sink. I think a couple of photos of them are on my web page. They are very pretty and blue but have that fine white clay bottom. Man you can silt them out faster than you can say 'of poo"! I used to sneak it with Bob, back in the BAD Cindy days.. Cindy :lol:

---

I had....and probably still could have(just have to contact the owner again) legit access to Skiles. No sneaking was required.

Mike

PM sent. The owner that those guys delt with held two divers at gun point. Did you ever hear that story? Cindy :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cindy

Did you ever hear that story?

---

No. Let's hear that story.

Russell

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cindy

PM sent. The owner that those guys delt with held two divers at gun point. Did you ever hear that story? Cindy :D

---

Oh, c'mon. We are all awaiting with baited breath... do tell us!!!
It sounds funny anyway.


Celia

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cindy

PM sent. The owner that those guys delt with held two divers at gun point. Did you ever hear that story? Cindy :D

---

Pretty good story. That is why I have traversed a lot of sink holes in that system,but have never surfaced.

OK the story. One land owner at Kitty and several of the sinks there was very anti trespassers period and he really hated divers. One hot summer a couple were diving and had to make an emergency exit at Skiles sink. The land owner happened to catch them. He forced them to stand in the hot sun fully geared up with their tanks on, a shot gun pointed at the male diver until the family called the sheriff. He let the women sit down when she almost passed out. When the Sheriff arrived he allowed them to leave after calming down the land owner. He felt they had been punished enough. The land owner's last words were that he would shoot the next diver. That's why we snuck it! I'm sorry I don't know the divers' names. Maybe some of our old timers do. How many couples were diving back in the days? Cindy :)

That land owner should have been arrested and charge with assault. Just because you own land does not give you the right to threaten people with no visible means of causing you bodily harm. If he was in his House or the cartilage then maybe. But out in the woods no-way. Just my 2cents

Curt

I totally agree! Back in those days in those parts of the woods they were lucky I guess that the land owner called the Sheriff. That's shoot first and ask questions later country. That story is at least 15 years old, maybe 20. How are your caving adventures going? Cindy :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by curtschu

That land owner should have been arrested and charge with assault.

---

If he didn't assault them, how can he be charged with assault? :?:

Russell

Not that it happened but heat exaustion can cause death. I don't think that holding a gun on someone and making them pass out or die from heat would be something that they would not go to jail for in this day and age. I may be wrong on this one, I'm not a lawyer. Cindy :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cindy

I totally agree! Back in those days in those parts of the woods they were lucky I guess that the land owner called the Sheriff. That's shoot first and ask questions later country. That story is at least 15 years old, maybe 20. How are your caving adventures going? Cindy :)

---

Yeah. Some people are just weird like that. I have a 'neighbor' who lives on 10 acres. The entire property is fenced with barbed wire and posted every 5 ft. that all tresspassers will be shot, etc. Another neighbor's horse wandered through the open gate of the 'weird' guy's property - you could see the tracks leading into the gate. You could see the horse in the front yard from the gate. The horse owner asked if he could come in to get his horse. The 'weird' guy refused and said he could just wait until the horse wandered back out! Geez. When he could see he was going to get nowhere the horseowner said 'Well it ain't a drug sniffin' horse ya' know! ' He got cursed and no horse. Next day the horse wandered home. Some people are just paranoid/aggressive like that - for various reasons I suppose.

Why'd that sink owner hate cavedivers? Dunno. Maybe one was a jerk toward him once. You never know. Pays to be nice sometimes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Angie Reim

Why'd that sink owner hate cavedivers? Dunno. Maybe one was a jerk toward him once. You never know. Pays to be nice sometimes.

---

Good point

Florida Statues define assault as intentionally putting a person in fear of bodily harm, (paraphrase)(as in pointing a gun at them). Simply stating to a person "I'm going to shoot you" while holding a gun in hand would be an assault. Since the person has a reasonable expectation that you have the ability to carryout the threat. I think you are confusion a Battery which is the intentional touching of a person without their permission. As Assault is a lesser included offence to Battery this is why the charge is really not "Assault and Battery" but just Battery...... Yes I used to be a cop.

I could not help myself had to look it up.

) An "assault" is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent.

Curt

Good try. But if you are trespassing on a person's land, and he holds you at gunpoint until the police arrive, it's not assault. Anywhere.

Russell

If that diver were to die he would be guilty of culpable negligence. The legal use of deadly force is not authorized for Trespass in any way shape or form. If those divers were to just turn and walk off the property that owner has no right to use force to affect a citizens arrest. Trespass is not a felony involving force or bodily injury. If you wanted to REALLY stretch I guess you Might be able to charge Armed trespass since the divers probably have a cutting device on them. But still nope. No right to shoot as much as we might think so "Trespasserrrrs w'll be shot" spelling for affect.

Don't get me wrong I am in not way advocated folks trespass to dive I just wish people would think before brandishing a gun. I would have no problem what so ever with the land owner holding his gun in his hands and escorting the trespassers off his land and having the local deputy issue a trespass warning. By the why that’s just another can of worms..

My point is it's gets very complicated real fast when you start point guns at people. Trust me I've done it many times.

It would be a real shame to explain to someone’s kid you shot his dad because he stepped on your land. we don't live in 1920 Appalachia

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sludge

Good try. But if you are trespassing on a person's land, and he holds you at gunpoint until the police arrive, it's not assault. Anywhere.

Russell

---

I dont beleive that is a true statement. I don't think you have a legal right to hold people against thier will just because they are on your property, I think if you have people on your property AND they refused to leave you could get a sheriff out there and cite them AND the next time they returned you could have them arrected for Criminal Tresspass. I dont think you would have the right to Hold them at gunpoint in either case. First tresspass or second.

There have been alot of new laws put on the books recently in Louisiana that deal with tresspassing on private land, mostly to remove the landowner of liability if the tresspassers got hurt.

I'd be willing to bet that landowner could go to jail for holding people on his prob with a gun. Depends on th DA I guess

I guess I should have prefaced it by stating that I'm not an expert on Florida law. However, I do know the Georgia law to some extent, and here is what the Criminal Code of Georgia says in section 16-3-24(a):

"A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such threat or force is necessary to prevent or terminate such other's trespass on or other tortious or criminal interference with real property other than a habitation or personal property:
(1) Lawfully in his possession
(2) Lawfully in the possession of a member of his immediate family; or
(3) Belonging to a person whose property he has a legal duty to protect."

Everyone's aware that, in Georgia, if you break into someone's house and he shoots you, the law considers it justified. The above statute shows how it also applies to one's property and stuff.

Again, I should have acknowledged that my knowledge of the law applies to Georgia. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if Florida has a similar statute.

Russell

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sludge

I guess I should have prefaced it by stating that I'm not an expert on Florida law. However, I do know the Georgia law to some extent, and here is what the Criminal Code of Georgia says in section 16-3-24(a):

"A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such threat or force is necessary to prevent or terminate such other's trespass on or other tortious or criminal interference with real property other than a habitation or personal property:
(1) Lawfully in his possession
(2) Lawfully in the possession of a member of his immediate family; or
(3) Belonging to a person whose property he has a legal duty to protect."

Everyone's aware that, in Georgia, if you break into someone's house and he shoots you, the law considers it justified. The above statute shows how it also applies to one's property and stuff.

Again, I should have acknowledged that my knowledge of the law applies to Georgia. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if Florida has a similar statute.

Russell

---

In my mind the statute you posted clearly shows the land owner WAS NOT in his legal right. The key part is "to the extent that he reasonably believes that such threat or force is necessary to prevent or terminate such other's trespass "

Were these divers refusing to leave? Did he order them to leave and they refused? That guy would go to Jail in Georgia or Florida and he is lucky he didnt get arrested that day!

With all due respect if you didnt understand that pointing a shotgun at someone was assualt then I would leave the legal arguments alone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by curtschu

That land owner should have been arrested and charge with assault. Just because you own land does not give you the right to threaten people with no visible means of causing you bodily harm. If he was in his House or the cartilage then maybe. But out in the woods no-way. Just my 2cents

Curt

---

Haven't spent much time around N. FL have you? (especially "back in the day") LOL :D

Although I wasn't cave diving back in those days, I still frequented the area and I can very much see stories like these happening.

Arrest the landowner, ha! - what are you smoking! Plus the landowner was probably in the Sheriff's Sunday School class or something like that.... you know good ole' Andy Griffith type stuff...

Landowners like that are why we all need to present ourselves in a positive light and not do stupid things..

JB

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JP

With all due respect if you didnt understand that pointing a shotgun at someone was assualt then I would leave the legal arguments alone.

---

Hello??????

The above statute spells out when it isn't assault, but justified.

Maybe one of the other moderators will decide to lock this thread. I think we've strayed about as far as we need to.

No hard feelings against anyone who has disagreed with me.

Russell

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sludge

Everyone's aware that, in Georgia, if you break into someone's house and he shoots you, the law considers it justified. The above statute shows how it also applies to one's property and stuff.

Again, I should have acknowledged that my knowledge of the law applies to Georgia. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if Florida has a similar statute.

Russell

---

Actually FL just "cleaned up" their statutes related to self defense with a firearm. Apparently you used to have to show "retreat" before you could justifiably shoot an attacker who threatened your life - now you don't have to. This makes FL more in line with other states when it comes to self-defense using deadly force. All the anti-gun forces had a short lived and illogical outcry against this modification until Jeb Bush signed it into law - good job Florida! (and thanks for recognizing my GA concealed carry permit too... even though it's not too easy to "conceal" while cave diving these days - especially with those darn small light cans they keep coming out with! LOL :D )

JB

I love you guys! Y'all show up at my funeral some day when I do get shot! LOL, Cindy :lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cindy

I totally agree! Back in those days in those parts of the woods they were lucky I guess that the land owner called the Sheriff. That's shoot first and ask questions later country. That story is at least 15 years old, maybe 20. How are your caving adventures going? Cindy :)

---

Thank you for sharing the story. I thought it was humorous, FL statutes notwithstanding... :)

Celia

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by resolute

even though it's not too easy to "conceal" while cave diving these days - especially with those darn small light cans they keep coming out with! LOL :D )

JB

---

Sure it is, clipped off in the right pocket of course.....

(Just kidding folks....)

I used to love the sneak diver course description on the wall behind the fill station at Lloyd's old shop.

Drew

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Limestone Cowboy

I used to love the sneak diver course description on the wall behind the fill station at Lloyd's old shop.

Drew

---

LOL - I love his write up about trial lawyers that's posted on the walls there somewhere... it's a classic.. and definite food for thought..

JB

Well I have stared down the barrel of a gun a few times and you can say you would just walk away but being out in the woods on somebody else's land you may end up buried on that land.

At least some mean old country landowner will usually let you do some explaining while they hold you at gunpoint. I'd rather be in that situation than the one time I had to stare down the barrel of a gun when some inner city thug kids decided to arm rob the local Cingular cell phone store while I was getting my phone upgraded. I didn't even get a new and interesting cave dive out of it! :roll:

JB

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cindy

I'm sorry I don't know the divers' names. Maybe some of our old timers do. How many couples were diving back in the days? Cindy :)

---

I believe that was Jeff Bozanic and his girlfriend....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RH

Well I have stared down the barrel of a gun a few times and you can say you would just walk away but being out in the woods on somebody else's land you may end up buried on that land.

---

Did he make you squeal like a pig? :lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RH

Well I have stared down the barrel of a gun a few times and you can say you would just walk away but being out in the woods on somebody else's land you may end up buried on that land.

---

Unless they own a pig farm.... :o LOL

Celia

Y'all are forgetting... The "squeal like a pig boy!" is strictly a North Georgia thing! In FLA apparently they just make you stand at attention in the hot sun wearing your heavy steel doubles...

Hey wait!! I live in North Georgia.. yikes! :-D

JB

It would figure somebody from polk county would bring up having sex with animals or family members. :orcass

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RH

It would figure somebody from polk county would bring up having sex with animals or family members. :orcass

---

Hell, it's all relative. :twisted: