Jackson Blue Line Conditions versus Peacock/Ginnie/LR

I dove JB this past weekend - spent some good quality time just looking at the cave along the main line and a jump or two.

One thing I noticed was that the line conditions were not as "nice" as places like Peacock, Ginnie, or Little River. On the main line, it looked pretty OK and there were markers for things like 100 feet and sometimes a jump. Get off the main line, and it was a little bit worse. I took the king's bypass line and wound up turning the dive because I wasn't comfy with the line arrangement - the first T was OK but the second T was on a rock that looked like cave line macrame and I was not confident I could follow the line around the rock in zero viz.

Most other "tourist caves" I've been in have pretty decent lines, even off the gold line in low silty places. Why the discrepancy in line conditions between Peacock/Ginnie/LR/Cow? Or did I just get unlucky and found the one line that wasn't well taken care of?

Jef,

Don't let the pink line in King's Canyon intimidate you. I would recommend that any time you come across some macrame in the cave, take the time to fix it and carry on. Maintaining the lines is everybody's responsibility.

Hope you enjoyed your dives.

Mark

I did see the pink line - although right now it's faded to the point where it's barely recognizable as pink.

I think if it was a place where I'd been before (it was my first time in the bypass) I would have fixed the line and not thought twice about it. It was my first time in that passage - which made me feel a bit like I should see the cave and where the line goes first before I try to fix anything - maybe all the territorial discussions on this forum about line placements make me a bit wary to change anything - don't want to get grief for moving or fixing someone's original exploration line.

Additionally, given the shape of the line and the age I was guessing it to be, I didn't want to risk breaking it, or making it worse, by messing with it.

I understand, I will fix lines that I encounter that are obviously loose or broken, but I will never move any tieoffs. Like you said some folks get all huffy when others mess with their lines. Hope you enjoyed your dives.

Mark

I had an absolutely great dive. I actually chose that path because I'd seen a video about a year ago that stuck in my head...the part around 7:30 really looked intriguing to me. It turned out to be far cooler in person, which was an unexpected surprise. It's also nice that you can swim all the way back there with very little issue - the first time I went I turned the dive at 800' crouched behind a rock pillar where the gold line Tees - it just wasn't fun swimming in that flow. (but the ride out was awesome)

If you think Peacock and Ginnie don't have areas of bad line, you need to spend more time off the main lines in those caves as well?


Turn your dive at your comfort level, there are lots of caves out there with lines that are in a real mess, or in constant need of replacement for various reasons.

Little River, nice line? It's ok, but I've got a big gay rights pin I found pinned through the line once, and there are no distance markers in there because people keep stealing them, plus a lot of the arrows are "personal arrows" which are twisted out of shape by the force on the line. Not to mention, the plethora of line traps.

Peacock has good lines, which see wear during flooding. I think it's illegal to tamper with the lines, but is it illegal to replace line when it breaks on you?

Typically, the further off the mainline you go, the worse the lines get. It's one of many reasons to carry knotted line on a jump reel that you are ready and able to use in the cave to replace line. But, even the worst tunnels in well traveled cave are better than the out of the way caves. River caves often have multiple lines run in parallel to replace sections covered during flooding, making navigation in an emergency a mess.

Illegal may be a bit strong of a word, but it may be true. There is a line committee charged with the maintenance of the lines at Peacock and divers are not supposed to be in there making line changes. See more discussion at: http://northfloridaspringsalliance.org/lines.htm

On the other hand it is the responsibility of every cave diver to make repairs to any line they see that is a safety issue.

Peacock, Ginnie, and Little River have line committees, as Jim has mentioned. There's no such thing for Jackson Blue. Like Mark said, it's pretty much on those of us that dive it to maintain it. There are quite a few areas there that would be difficult to follow out in zero visibility if you don't know the cave that well.

Could a line committee be formed for Jackson Blue?

Does it really need it?

There should some personal responsibility as cave divers to fix clusters in the line when you come across them.

Jackson Blue doesn't have a history of line shenanigans, so there doesn't really need to be a commitee for it.

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Originally Posted by ffdiver5597

Could a line committee be formed for Jackson Blue?

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Please no! How many times have we seen "lose line" reports for Peacock where divers simply ignore it during their dive and assume it's another person's problem. Also consider Ginnie where the committee decided to rip out the gold line beyond 3100ft against the general wish of the diving community.

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Originally Posted by ffdiver5597

Could a line committee be formed for Jackson Blue?

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OH DEAR GOD NO!!!!!

Personally I think the lines at Peacock are terrible. I remember when the lines there were actually tied on rock, as opposed to being (supposedly) anchored by the stupid concrete flowerpot things- which move all over the place....

I also remember when he gold line in JB ended at the trash pile, in fact, I was one of the three divers who extended it to the banana room. From the first T back, most of the larger "intersections" are Ts rather than jumps because it has historically been "scooter country" back there. I rather like the fact that every side tunnel doesn't have a flashing neon sign marking it- and the fact that there isn't a distance marker every 6 feet.

I guess you haven't been in there in a while, Heather. There are a lot more jump markers now. They occasionally get removed but are soon replaced.

I agree with Heather. Nothing wrong with the lines at JB except too many lines have been put in. There is no need for lines all over the damn cave. Put one in and take it out. One line was moved this year at Youngs Siphon, worst job I ever saw and it had to be corrected.

The issue at Kings Bypass sounds like inexperience. That's one of the easiest to follow I think. There are 3 lines that intersect there. In order to clean up the rock they tie too would mean making it an unnecessary jump. No sense in that at all. Learn the well placed arrows. I was there week before last and the line was in excellent shape there. The only spot I noticed that weekend is where somebody broke the gold line at the second breakdown and tied it back together.

I've noticed, Rob, I just try to ignore most of the "line trash".

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Originally Posted by Kevin Carlisle

That's one of the easiest to follow I think. There are 3 lines that intersect there. In order to clean up the rock they tie too would mean making it an unnecessary jump.

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I think the issue I had with this particular "T" was that the lines didn't really intersect in the way I'd been used to - like the T's on the gold line where there's a split. The rock is about the size of a recycling bin. I really wish I had a picture of it - but the line hit the rock, wrapped around in a couple of loops (potentially underneath the rock) and then, on the other side, two other lines appeared from different parts of the rock. One went straight ahead into some very low cave. The other went straight up. The "T" wasn't really so much of a "T" as a "rock where three different lines were attaching." I looked at the rock and the lines and determined that in a zero viz situation, it would be difficult to feel the way along the line and around the rock.

Its always important to learn the cave for situations just like that ;)



I know the interesection you're talking about and I applaud you for turning when you hit your comfort level. Its a slice of cave that really doesn't need to be visited unless you are comfortable.

Jeff as Bugman does I think you did the absolute right thing and I applaud you for knowing that you hit your comfort zone. I wish more had that good common sense you used there.

Does JB still have the spider web in the back when you need a bag of clothpins? Only went there once, beautiful cave. Had 12 pins and ran out, so we turned. Edd told me he used over 25 and had to turn when he ran out. I thought he was kidding. Hole is the same way.

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Originally Posted by Wizard

Does JB still have the spider web in the back when you need a bag of clothpins? Only went there once, beautiful cave. Had 12 pins ad ran out, so we turned. Edd told me he used over 25 and had to turn when he ran out. I thought he was kidding. Hole is the same way.

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Yes, you cross easily a dozen T's on the way back to the banana room. They're all white line T'ed into gold line. Whoever ran the line did an excellent job however, the navigational decisions are very visible and fast to navigate on a scooter.

A lot of folks dislike white T's tied in the gold line. But if you are that far back, you should have advanced navigation skills.

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Originally Posted by Wizard

A lot of folks dislike white T's tied in the gold line. But if you are that far back, you should have advanced navigation skills.

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The gold line beyond the Trash Pile was laid with an eye toward scootering rather than swimming, as given the distances and the traditional level of flow, that was the only way to get back there. Ts were all marked on the outbound side. We actually cut back a number of the Ts when we ran the gold line, as prior to that there were 27 Ts between the Trash Pile and the Banana Room, all exploration line tied into exploration line. Back in the late 90's, early 2000's (essentially prior to Edd moving to Marianna), Jackson Blue wasn't really on the "map" so to speak for most cave divers, it was considered out of the way and wasn't frequented by the large numbers of people that dive there now. The same was even more true of Twin and Hole in the Wall. Those of us who did dive there regularly had a pretty standing agreement that whenever we laid line anywhere in the back, we Td in and marked the outbound side, which should give you all some explanation as to why the lines in the Middle Grounds are run as they are as well. Things have changed bit in the intervening years, but if you know your way around, its actually quite easy to navigate.

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Originally Posted by Wizard

But if you are that far back, you should have advanced navigation skills.

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But not advanced buoyancy skills.

(As evidenced by all the marks in the floor.)

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Originally Posted by harmstrong

as prior to that there were 27 Ts between the Trash Pile and the Banana Room, all exploration line tied into exploration line. Back in the late 90's, early 2000's (essentially prior to Edd moving to Marianna), Jackson Blue wasn't really on the "map" so to speak for most cave divers, it was considered out of the way and wasn't frequented by the large numbers of people that dive there now.

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.. and quite a bit of it was done >15 years before that :)

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Originally Posted by dogwatch

.. and quite a bit of it was done >15 years before that :)

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Certainly :) I was just giving a bit of semi-historical perspective, though my history doesn't extend as far as some!

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Originally Posted by harmstrong

Certainly :) I was just giving a bit of semi-historical perspective, though my history doesn't extend as far as some!

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Yeah - just had to put in a plug for old guys and gals :) - i bet some of the newer folks would have a hard time believing how "difficult" it was to dive Jackson Blue during certain periods on history.

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Originally Posted by dogwatch

Yeah - just had to put in a plug for old guys and gals :) - i bet some of the newer folks would have a hard time believing how "difficult" it was to dive Jackson Blue during certain periods on history.

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I heard once upon a time you had to pull and glide there :)

In 2005 there was no glide involved. It was pull and pull.

Before 1998 it was worse than that - JB was one of those "if you don't have a scooter, don't bother."

But I can remember as recent as 2007 not being able to make any forward progress at p800' on my Mako unless I was also kicking.

I was referring to access to the site, but yeah, sometimes the flow was unbelievable. We once had to pull (no glide) with a Tekna wide open just to get in.

I've seen it when 1000' on thirds of jacked 104's was huge. Six months later we turned at 2400'.