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Hi all,
a quick question that probably has been asked already but I am curious to know people's preferences.
What type of line do you prefer to dive along?
1-Gold Line
2-White Line
3-telephone cable
4-don't follow the line
Thanks for your participation and see you on the other side.
Jason
I don't mind what it is made of or colored as long as it is functional. Odd "line" I've come across in a cave was weedeater cord. Very surprised to find and follow that.
It is as you are a seasoned cave diver I guess.
I'd be curious to know what the casual cave divers or not regular cave diver likes
The type of line doesn't matter, its where it takes you that does. I tend to explore the first 2k or so of gold line of a new system (if it has it) before going off and exploring the jumps but this is just my pattern of exploring, only reason I could come up with was that more often than not the gold line is run in the most central passage which is a good starting point.
You forgot:
5-DSL
6-Cable
7-Fiber/FiOS
I really don't care what the color is, but I put gold. Only because white is boring, and telephone wire is so dial up 56k. I think they should all be pink. Nice hi vis. Oh or maybe rope light or Christmas lights. Lol.
I really don't care, so long as the line is in good repair and well run. I get a little nervous when it's frayed or otherwise seems as though if you had to follow it in zero viz, it might not survive the experience. Remember some of the line in the jumps in Dos Palmas? THAT kind of line . . .
Jason, you left out some important choices. The most important has been covered by other posters: #5 I don't care, as long as it is good line. #6 I would prefer to run my own line in virgin cave.
However, since I see why you posted the thread, I will add something. The whole point of gold line is so "tourist" divers don't accidentally get into a side tunnel that is beyond their comfort level. Gold line was first installed because of an accident in Florida, where a group was in a side tunnel, and didn't realize they were off the main line.
FWIW, I have seen seen wire used for cave line :roll:
:)
thanks for your participation.
The state of the line is an important factor. Diving along a line that present obvious damages/repair can put some stress on divers.
I am aware of the origins of the gold line. But wanted to test the psychological approach to a cave regarding what line is there. If we are at explorer level, thin white line is what matters but if we are beginner diver, a thick, strong and visible line is reassuring.
Could it be that it create a false sense of safety? I heard of divers doing visual jumps from the GL to side shoots with #18 and justifying by saying 'don't need, it is pretty obvious where I come from' :mad:
In some caves in France you still find the phone cable that was installed to have communication in far sump sections. It is not DSL or Fiber/FiOS !! :rollguy
I don't intend to do a political topic out of that. It is really pure curiosity.
I call to the beginner divers maybe more.
Cheers
J
I find that the more pristine caves lack goldline.
As for the line itself, outside factors not-withstanding, I really don't give a **** what its made of...
While in reality it doesnt matter what color or physical attributes the line has as long as it is in good shape and can be followed..... those trained in Florida have a comfort level when seeing gold, whether they admit it or not. It is just something that comes from the initial training.
Not a complacency but the knowlege that this is the gold line. Different than the white line ...... when I see it I know it goes out. When I cant see it...it could be purple with pink polka dots and now the arrows and markers are important..... and those could be purple too.....
Does that mean if I volunteer pink line, you'll use it? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn
I perfer Primer Cord. In the unlikely event I have an issue and need to get out fast.....
If you detonate it, you better get out fast :roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by Line Squirrel
Parts of you will, for sure :DQuote:
Originally Posted by FW
Speaking as one that has less than a dozen post-training cave dives...yeah...that big, secure looking gold line gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. Hi...my name's John, and I'm a noob. :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by JerseyJersey
Hi John! :)
The fuzz of the GL is one thing but as mentioned earlier, JerseyJersey said 'it goes out'. Well, at least one end of it goes out and that is the tricky part ins't it..??
As for system markers, they don't necessarily indicate YOUR exit.
This is the sort of complacency that GL tends to create, I think. Just rely on the color/thickness of the line and the system arrows and don't pay attention to the cave details so much. Thinking that you may have to find your exit without the line is an interesting factor. Isn't it..??
ps: when I say 'you' I don't point anybody in particular.
And this changes if the line is pink or white or barbed wire?Quote:
Originally Posted by CaveBuddy95
In a way I think that the false comfort blanket offered by seeing the GL from afar may induce bad line awareness and create hazardous situations.
As for barbed wire, only in training caves, perfect for touch-contact light out exit!! :evil:
my understanding is that in MX white line is preferred as in cave that are highly decorated, have great viz, large passages and little or no silt, large diameter gold line can be seen at a much greater distance and results in divers straying farther from the line and consequently doing more damage to the caves.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaveBuddy95
In that sense, I suspect you are right that gold line in a N FL cave may lead to bad habits where divers may be so far off the line that a sudden silt event could leave you off the line.
In our full cave class the instructor made it clear that in a silty cave the priority was to get on the line as soon as you donated the gas to an OOG diver, that the hose is long for a reason and that you want to be on the line if he breaks trim and blows the viz or if a free flow percolates stuff off the ceiling and blows the viz.
That applies to any line but the point is some divers do tend to conduct dives without good SA or line awareness or without thought to the consequences in situations where the viz may go south in a hurry.
We have had some interesting dives in some tight and silty side mount tunnels where I didn't care what kind of line it was - as long as I was on it, properly oriented and knew which way was out when it was time to leave.
For me, if I'm on gold line it means I'm not at the good part of the cave yet...
I far prefer to see original markers from exploration, to me that's as important as the cave its self. Gold is the proverbial sterilised shipwreck sunk on purpose, yeah I'll go look but not that interested in it.
Agreed! One of the best cave dives ever for me was Yax Muul, where we got to see the original styrofoam cups placed by Mike Madden's folks when they explored the Lunas y Sombras line. And then getting to talk to Mike on FB was pretty cool, too -- and he seemed very pleased that the markers were still there, and that people enjoyed seeing them.Quote:
I far prefer to see original markers from exploration, to me that's as important as the cave its self.
Ever been to Indian?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave1981
Its arguable that some of the better places in Indian are beyond the goldline eh?
Don't worry, definitely no complacency here. I don't rely solely on the line, and do work on my situational awareness skills on every dive. My previous post was just my humorous way of indicating I'm a noob...ok...perhaps a weak attempt at humor. :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by CaveBuddy95
I don't think gold lines generate complacency. I think individuals generate their own complacency. I've seen extremely experienced divers make all sorts of noob type mistakes, in many different types of diving environments, because they allowed themselves to become complacent. Laying the blame on a particular type of line is just a crutch.
What ever is in the section of cave I'm in. Makes no difference to me.
Dale
I didn't say 'you' were complacent.Quote:
Originally Posted by TJDiver
And I still believe having too much of a set of physical references (line and markers) and being taught to use them to find your way out is not the right way to do it.
Take example of a survey dive, the first time the diver goes in, he/she will survey the line. But to produce a map that is going to be of any use for divers and others, the survey team need to survey the cave.
The line is just a path in the cave and is here to help in zero viz exit...if any!
Having a very visible and thick line could create complacency by creating a false idea that what ever happens, this same line will take me out. I think.
Jason,
I really dont think it is the color of the line, or the thickness of the line, as long as it is well placed and dosent look like it is going to break while you are in the cave!
BUT it is the difference between the lines, that makes the difference, both for intro divers and for "vacation" cave divers that will tend to stay on the main line, doing maybe 1 or 2 navigations.
I know the line shouldent make a difference, but i am sure that it does, that when they see the change to gold line, they feel more at home.
AND most important, you never get in doubt of which line is yours. Ever been to Xunaan Ha far upstream ? if you swim about 1,5-2hours upstream till you reach the white bedding plane area, you will notice first of all lots of percolation, second of all that you have tons of jumps starting only 1 foot or so from the main line, a couple of times running almost parallel to the line.
a short lack of attention, would be dangerous here but not as dangerous if the main line would have been gold line! ok i doubt that anybody would install gold line, that far back , and crossing a gap, but there are other places out there where the difference in lines would really make a difference.
Plus +. I saw some very interesting jumps in MX - jumps that were quite close and/or aligned in a manner where moving from one to the other would only require a moment's inattention to slip from one line to another, especially returning with the halocline nicely stirred up.
However, I dropped cookies anytime the potential for confusion existed, and that's a better approach than gold line since you can personalize any line, anywhere.
Wow. I guess I really misunderstood the question!!! I thought you meant what color do I like!!!! Oops.
Not a cave-diver here . . . what is the story behind telephone cable?
I think someone mentioned earlier that it was run through sumps in caves that were primarily dry, to facilitate communication between the two sides. I took it as a joke regarding internet divers.
Absolutely right Greenwood, it was used and probably could still be installed, as a mean of communication in sump exploration. Not necessarily from the entrance but could be from an advance base camp to the furthest remote access of the cave.
We know that internet divers use broadband nowadays! ;)
What would be "the right way" to teach in your opinion?Quote:
Originally Posted by CaveBuddy95
I normally us 4mm polypropylene in and out tagged every 5M:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...d/DSCN1979.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...d/DSCN1977.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...licamines2.jpg
From 1980,s :diver
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...d/IMG_0400.jpg
Although as long as it floats I do not mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VayG-...1&feature=plcp
Line laying practise (Some may have already seen it). music I like and has no relevance to the video:roll:
Andrew
Hey there, if you ask me I'd say cave referencing, as much as line referencing. Too many times divers are thought just to follow the line and trust their life to a plastic marker or a nylon line ( a bit about this later) and I don't think it's a good idea. IANTD standards state a skill (#20) in which the student is to exit without light and without the line... apart from doing a 'lost line drill' I don't see the point. What could be interesting is to 'try' to exit without the line but with light. There, cave referencing would probably save your life.Quote:
Originally Posted by NEON
floaty line is not a good idea, unless in sea caves where polypro is more resistant and has to be a very thick line. In Mexico the tie offs are often done in stalagmites and a thin line is less damaging that a very thick one. On the other hand, entanglements hazard with floaty lines are real, so it is down to the type of diving you do for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by AMW
As you say it depends on the diving you do, diving in low vis silty caves the last thing you want is a line on the floor that becomes between dives covered in silt that is displaced as you move along it. You should never be proscriptive as to what is good or bad as nothing suits all conditions. For your diving non floating lines may work in other areas it may not be the best choice (horses for courses).Quote:
floaty line is not a good idea
Andrew
different strokes for different folks I guess. I've been in small silty tunnels with old, loose or broken line down in the silt. Personally, I'd rather have nylon line there than a floaty poly-pro line. The nylon line may become uncovered, but it will stay there. Poly pro line that was pulled down and covered in a flood event would refloat when freed of silt and that could be loads of fun exiting in low viz in tight passage.Quote:
Originally Posted by AMW
On the other hand if it stayed floating and was just loose going in, it could be replaced in hopes of it being snug on the way out. However if it again comes loose before I exit, I want it on the bottom, not potentially trying to float above/behind me in a low viz exit.
Thanks for the history lesson on the phone cable. :)
Being both US (NSS-CDS) and UK (CDG) trained, I have to point out that the UK sump divers have a lot more experience in low visibility cave diving.
If you want to read an interesting IRAP which points out the problem with Nylon line buried in the silt, read this: http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...5518-Lost-line
Didn't I read that same story in a DCG pub many years ago? (I'm trying to think if the pub was actually from 2007 or earlier)Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Losing the line in a low-viz situation is always my greatest fear. I sometimes wonder how you search for the line when you're the one laying it and the reel gets away from you. I had a good friend that once did the same thing, he luckily returned to the campfire that night to tell his story.
-Jon
PS thanks for the pics AMW!
That is why you carry safety reels/spools.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlillest
I've never been able to read in a pub - not enough light and too many distractions.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlillest
A true CDG pub would be the one where they hold their meetings. :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by MORGAN
It sucks. I had it happen once. Some one I was with silted out the cave, paniced and shot past me pushing me out of the way and in to the ceiling upside down. I could not see a thing. Luckily I remebered where I was at, new that the tunnel was about 6 feet from top to bottom, except for the 10 foot wide tunnel below me droping about 25 feet down. I knew if I hit the floor and started my lost line drills I would be ok. It was falling in to the tunnel below that worried me. Luckily I hit the floor and when I went to tie off my safety, I found the line. I got lucky on which way to head out and eventually saw the light from the buddy.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlillest
I agree buried line can be an issue. Marci and i were in sidemount tunnel where more recent line had been laid but where not all of the broken segments of old line had been removed. All of line, new and old was mostly buried in the silt so I had to gently pull it free to ensure we had continuos line.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Unfortunately I unknowingly pulled up a T that in the confined space was fully hidden from view by my arm. Marci noted however it and marked it, but it was still a shocker on exit to find a T I missed. We eventually worked all the leads and the "wrong" end of the T only went about 40' before the passage totally filled in, so there was no real danger of getting lost - but in a larger or complex system and if diving solo with no teammate to catch the error, it could have been a far more serious threat.
While I am not denying there may be circumstances where floating line makes sense, I still would not have wanted to be in that cave in near zero viz with old floating line.
Unfortunately they hold their meetings in corporate America's excuse for an outdoor store......(aka REI)Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Dry Creek? I found the pub. It has one of my favorite articles written about sump diving. But, then again, I'm a sucker for historical articles.....
-Jon
you are welcome! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax
I have heard this same argument before and can not say that I agree with it entirely. We trust our lives on pieces of plastic all the time - just think of cable insulation for example...
Oops, that was a typo, I meant CDG, not DCG :roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by jlillest
Yep, Dry Creek.
After any heavy rain we end up having to repair the line on the first dive after floods, the sumps are small so therefore have high flow in small passage. We normally get the poly-prop in 220M bundles at about £4.50p a go :clapper.
In one sump we dived to an underwater dig a large amount of twin copper insulated wire had been left from an attempt in the 1970,s to blast a way through a blockage (it was used to fire bang). We used to dive with wire cutters just in case.
Pubs are good meeting venue and the beers are on you next time you are over Forrest :rollguy
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...rd/Image12.jpg
This is the entrance to Porth-yr-Ogof Tradesman me around 1988.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...d/IMG_1833.jpg
Leaving a Hepste sump entrance passage.
Andrew
I've never seen a storm trooper dive before, and the other guy looks like he just got squished.
Damn... Gives new meaning to "tight".
As long as it leads out to the opening I could care less.
funny though, as 56% would rather follow gold line... for what it's worth :)
Merry Christmas to you ALL!
Why is that funny?
Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk
When I first read this poll, I thought he was asking about color for lines. Especially since I knew that Many Mexico caves use white line for the main line. I thought that was kinda funny.
That's what I thought, and that is what I voted on. That is also why I said I preferred hi vis pink line. I did not realize it was asking what I felt better psychologically diving and which line be it main or side tunnel I preferred.Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyJersey
well I still believe, just like it is nice to visit somewhere is is comforting to be on the way home..... same goes with cave diving.....
The white material was something Warbac had put onto a suit and I was testing it, although it did not work very well it tended to tear a bit to easily.Quote:
I've never seen a storm trooper dive before
I do have a standard neoprene wambac suit (always use them for caving in the wet) and that is great. http://warmbac.com/listing_wetsuits.php
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...rd/Image65.jpg
Me Ogof Ffynnon Ddu one streamway some time late 1980,s photo by John Adams.
Andrew