Were can I find information like statistics on cave safety.What I am looking for is safety / accidents with trained cave divers, not problems with untrained rule breakers.
Please reply to mr_bill@mailcity.com
Thanks
Bill
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Were can I find information like statistics on cave safety.What I am looking for is safety / accidents with trained cave divers, not problems with untrained rule breakers.
Please reply to mr_bill@mailcity.com
Thanks
Bill
Try the NACD web site, its www.safecavediving.com.
That will give you some information, I dont know if they show you any fatality statistics.
also try www.fullcave.com/safety.htm
I have looked at both of these sites and can't find what I am looking for. I have a friend that wants to know how safe cave diving is once your trained and follow the rules. I am looking for numbers.
I cant give you exact numbers but I can tell you that because of all the saftey precautions and redundant equipment, a well trained cave diver is safer diving in a cave than your basic OW diver is in OW.
http://www.iucrr.org/aa.htmQuote:
Originally Posted by blibecap
mart
If you are a member of DAN they put out a statistical paper each year on all types of diving incidents that are reported to them.
Also, take a look at International Underwater Cave Rescue & Recovery.
http://www.iucrr.org
Also, you may want to contact Michael O'Leary with the NACD and Denny Willis with the NSS-CDS
Safe Diving
DAN's has just started collecting data on cave and cavern diving but the data hasn't finished collecting yet for 2005.
Prior to the more recent push for information 2004 Project Dive Exploration Cave/Cavern had 1.2% of the monitored dives resulting in about 3% of the deaths and 0% of the injuries.
While that information is probably off the data implies that cave diving would be about 3 times more likely to kill you per dive then the average dive they monitor but that you are immune to injury.
As obviously incorrect as that is I would expect the monitored deaths to be lower and the injuries to be slightly higher in next years PDE report with more divers involed in a wider range of monitored cave diving.
I predict next year PDE results probably close to on par for deaths (same as average) and injuries still much less then average.
It would be nice if there the PDE data on injury and fatalities for Air vs Nitrox vs Trimix in as used in cave diving was broken out seperate from the OW Tech crowd. In General population Nitrox has about 28% use with 10% of injuries and fatalities making it about 3 times safer then average - while Trimix has about 1% use with 5% of injuries and fatalities making it 5 times more dangerous then average... I think in cave diving the Trimix numbers are likely to be much improved compared to those in the general populace.
It is my understanding that as long as the 6 guidelines for cave diving are followed it is relatively safe.
The six contributing factors (from the NSS-CDS workbook)
Lack of training (major factor)
Failure to run a continuous guideline to OW (the most common direct cause of cave diving fatalities)
Failure to reserve at least 2/3 of starting air for exit (second most common direct cause of cave diving fatalities)
Exceeding max depth of your training or MOD of gas (third most common direct cause of cave diving fatalities)
Failure to use at least 3 lights (major factor)
Solo diving (contributing factor)
It was my understanding from class that all cave deaths have occurred as a result of one of the above with the exception of 1, and that was due to a cave in. (please correct me if I'm wrong)
Jason
So what did the autopsy report on the solo diving death say?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason B.
That the diver died of lonelyness? ;-)
Not likely.
I can't tell you that as I was just relaying what is in the book. Maybe he needed to share air and had no one to do it with (guessing).Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary
That said, my instructor did say that 90% of his cave dives are solo.
I've always heard that most cave diving deaths could have been avoided if they hadn't been diving solo, goes back to the old YMCA swim with a buddie rule.
Hmmmm....that's kinda funny, I've always heard that most cave diving deaths could have been avoided by not going cave diving :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by D1V3R
Now if you're solo cave diving and not sidemounting, using independents or carrying a buddy bottle well then yes, you're asking for it....that I'll agree with!!
Safe diving,
Rich
Would you be able to expand on that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich
Why is that the case?
Are you stating that BM doubles solo is dangerous, but SM solo is not?
Yah, I dont get that either. I always thought that Independant was safer because If one tank has to be shut down you still have the entire other tank left, but if you have a manifold bridge you might only have half a tank.
Absolutely. Manifolded backmount doesn't have complete redundancy. Sidemount does. As does carrying a buddy bottle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
That's the difference.
Russell
Right, but SM isnt any safer than Independant BM right?
Right, sidemount and independent backmount offer equal redundancy.
Russell
Well sidemount would allow you the access to your tanks needed to swap a single functional reg between them that backmount independents would be much harder to do - still basicly the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sludge
I don't know of any solo cave diving deaths that would have had much of a chance of being saved if they had a buddy. And I don't know of any equipment failures that would have saved them if they had been using independent air sources. Actually even diving rebreathers with no independent backup has been becoming more common. Not a lot of deaths related to that yet... but I wouldn't be all that surprized to hear of more in the next couple years...
Mostly the solo deaths I've heard of were either medical (likely nothing a buddy could have done to help) or the result of breaking the same rules that killed everyone else (Training air line depth lights).
Some solo divers pull some really stupid stunts I have to admit. The contributing factor is that they don't have a buddy around that goes "what the #### are you thinking!?".
You have to figure anyone who doesn't run lines and gets lost in complex cave, or dives to half their availiable air and then gets lost off the line in a siltout or whatever even if they were in a buddy team is not that surprizing when you hear the incident report.
It's not about solo it's about breaking the basic precepts of cave saftey and unfortunately there are some solo divers out there that do that. Buddy teams that do that are just as likely to die.
I dive independents (some sidemount and do a lot of solo - or at least use to).Quote:
Originally Posted by D1V3R
It depends on the failure you have. Obviously a manifold failure independents is better. For a regulator failure though manifolds give you access to your whole air supply. Tanks neck o-ring they are petty much the same.
If you know what you are doing either system is probably equally fine. Personally I wouldn't want to solo with out a independent air source not tied together through the manifold - realistically though they are fairly stable.
So not a big advantage either way. Things most people probably wouldn't guess like regulator failures that drain both tanks before they can be isolated via the manifold (story from caverns Measureless to Man) the one in a million problem that actually causes some manifold catastrophe, and the ability to get air out of a tank/reg even after the regulator has failed keep me with the independent tanks even when with a buddy.
I don't solo alot, but when I do and have my aluminum "buddy", I dive more conservativly and carefully, and stick to routes I am very familiar with.
Just my opinion but if you add an H-Valve to one of your sidemount tanks and run an extra reg on it, that makes it the safest way to solo dive....I tried independents for a while, but it's not like you can change your reg out underwater with independents, so if you were to lose a reg you'd lose half your gas, hence the transition to sidemount.Quote:
Originally Posted by D1V3R
I'm doing quite a bit of solo backmount with a buddy bottle but as you get farther back in the cave the tunnels get smaller, and I really don't want to be dragging "Justin" around, so hence I'm in the SM transition stage. That said I still prefer back mounting for everyday cave diving... :)
Safe diving,
Rich
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich
BACK-MOUNTED SCUM!!
....LOL......Quote:
Originally Posted by carrive1
Jeff Wannabe :-D
Safe diving,
Rich
Equal redundancy, yes....but not equal safety, IMO. When sidemounting, your regs are much more protected than when backmounting. Plus you can swap regs if necessary when you're sidemount. Doing that while backmount is much more difficult, if not nearly impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sludge
Mike
So Rich are you saying you have a 7ft Octo. on both post of your Back mount rig. For a grand total of 4 Regs. How do you know them apart do you have them marked with like Braille or something? LOL :D
I guess 4 regs is okay on independents, you never know which tank you will be on when you need your octopus. Alot of ppl have colored bands on their reg relative to which tank their hooked up to.
I couldn't agree more, Mike. My point was that both offer the redundancy that's absolutely necessary before even considering solo.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeH
Russell
Kevin's having fun with you mate......4 regs would be just a little bit too redundant :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by D1V3R
All I need is 2, but it's nice to have the 3rd on AL when soloing!
Safe diving,
Rich
Yes I am just having fun Rich.Quote:
Originally Posted by D1V3R
I'm not sure who is serious and who isnt so I'm just gonna walk away...
Actually 4 second stages on 2 posts for any sort of independent/sidemount configuration would be a clusterfuck and would likely cause excessive problems due to unnecessary 2nd stage failures - not to mention strangled in the mess of you own hoses.Quote:
Originally Posted by D1V3R
In backmount independents on reg (pri+sec) is attached to each post. Each also has a pressure guage.
This is often the way in sidemount as well. Much like each bottle being a stage plus the need for a LP inflator hose on one bottle to inflate the BC.
However, some sidemounters have added an H-valve to one of thier 2 tanks (kinda like manifolded doubles all on one tank) and put a 3rd regulator (pri+sec) without an additional pressure guage or inflator on it. This allows them more options in a regulator failure: either to isolate the failed reg on the tank with 2 OR to underwater swap one of the 2 working regs on the tank with 2 working regs over to the one with the failed reg without having to hold their breath like they would have to do in a swap with only one reg on each tank.
Actually a 3rd reg carried in a pocket or pouch of some sort or one from a stage bottle would serve just as well in most cases.
While I have had a failed regulator while diving independents the way you program your air switches allows for adequite air reserves for a self supplied exit without needing to swap regs or any sort of underwater gymnastics. Also since regs generally fail towards free flow or just breathing wets the air in the "failed" tank is generally still accessable but merely "inconvienient" to use.
Similarly once when diving with a manifold I had a regulator failure that took out my reg with the LP inflator on it (by funny chance we were in a non-exitable fresh air sink called "repair shop" at the time). Of course we turned the dive and I was able to use the failed "inconvienient" regulator by cracking and closing the failed post to pressurize the reg to it's free flow level and off again (as you might to breath off a failed reg) allowing me to use the LP inflator for 2-3 bouyancy adjustments before needing to crack the valve open again.