Solo Diving in FL State Parks

I've been wondering why solo diving isn't allowed at state sites like Peacock?

I know a lot of you are solo cave divers (many also being cave instructors), and thought I'd ask if anyone is trying to get the state to review its rules on this subject?

I see agencies now issuing solo-diving cards (non-cave so far as I know), so the cert agencies are moving in that direction. I have a CCR Self Sufficient Diver card from IANTD, for example. (I know, but the local quarry was getting pissy.)

I'm guessing that at the time the rules were made solo diving was taboo. I'm thinking now - with enough divers signing a petition, or something + with the evidence that agencies are recognizing solo diving - that the state might just listen.

So, anyone beating the bushes on this one?

BTW, why isn't there a Solo Forum on the CDF?

Is the death rate higher for solo divers?

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Originally Posted by Puttzer

Is the death rate higher for solo divers?

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No. Virtually every solo cave death I've read about was during exploration.

Bill, I have an SDI solo card; I got it because the Nekton Pilot said I needed one to solo from their boat.

I understand the solo prohibition at peacock was a direct result of a solo cave diver death there. Bill

What were the circumstances of this death and how many/which of the 5 rules were violated?

Funny, they didn't ban teams of two even after several fatalities involving a team of two...

Yet, we see Australia making additional and burdensome rules after a single fatality there. At the risk of yet another yet, we appear to have seen a fatality just months after these additional rules-- perhaps rules don't stop some fatalities...

However, it IS a fact of life that deaths affect the rules and access. Sometimes for good reason-- accident analysis guidelines are a good way "rules" were changed based on deaths.


As much as I do support careful, reasoned solo diving, among other things in life, I also must say I strongly support the careful, political diplomacy of groups like the NFSA. The rules aren't always what I think make perfect sense, but I know those groups are working hard, with a strong understanding of the past, and with the intentions to ensure access for the long term (even if not for solo diving. I'd rather dive with a buddy than not get to dive at all). In short, I don't see reason to complain about it, or make a stink about it. I'd much rather they work on getting us access for longer hours or help provide ways to keep the park clean like trashcans for sorb.

Keep in mind that alot of the state parks allow OW divers to dive their parks as well. So I think this is a general rule and might be hard to argue and change. Where do you start and where do you end? Yes certain dives are under a higher risk if done in a team, thinking of exploration dives or mixed gas dives. But if you allow solo diving rules you will end up with people that break the rule, lets say the solo rule would require you to carry a bail out tank, you will end up with people sneaking through, so I think accident will increase when implementing such a solo rule. I don't think that people should not solo dive at all, but not everyone should do, depending on comfort level, medical conditions, equipment and so on. As mentioned, hard to say who should and who shouldn't without allowing everyone to do it in general.
Places like little river appear to work with this general rule, so maybe this would be a good point to argue.

What are the stats for solo diver deaths versus dual diver deaths?
How many times have we had a problem that our buddy helped us out?

May I be the "first" to suggest: solo diving is more dangerous and the State doesn't want to "deal" with our "attitude"

Is JB not a state park?

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Originally Posted by b1gcountry

Is JB not a state park?

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No it is run by jackson county.

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Originally Posted by floridakid

What were the circumstances of this death and how many/which of the 5 rules were violated?

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I don't know the details as it was before i became involved. I understand he got lsot and ran out of gas.

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Originally Posted by wingman

I don't know the details as it was before i became involved. I understand he got lsot and ran out of gas.

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If you mean the early accident in P3, that was before line arrows, and before gaps to side tunnels were common. He got confused by all the unmarked Ts in the cave at that time.

I don't know how strong the parks are set with the no solo diving rule. I do know that there have been no multiple fatalities with solo diving incidents. There have been numerous multiple fatalities with team incidents. Considering the training standard of donating gas in an emergency it only makes sense. With all of the data I have reviewed there does not seem to be any correlation between solo diving and higher incident rates. The data set is not complete or large enough to prove it out yet I would say that IMO solo diving would trend towards lower incidents and "be safer" with the diver paying more attention to planning and executing the dive properly.

There is also one incident, that I know, of a solo diver that stopped a team incident from occurring. One team member was separated from the other two and had rolled off their post, as that member was getting to the end of their gas in the one open cylinder they came into contact with the solo diver who donated gas and exited with the diver. Though a rare statistical anomaly it resulted in a positive outcome due to solo divers tending to carry more reserve gas for an emergency. I find it interesting that teams tend to push their gas reserves more when they should be thinking about how their teammate may use up more of the planned reserve if something goes wrong.

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Originally Posted by Bobby

I don't know how strong the parks are set with the no solo diving rule. I do know that there have been no multiple fatalities with solo diving incidents. There have been numerous multiple fatalities with team incidents. Considering the training standard of donating gas in an emergency it only makes sense. With all of the data I have reviewed there does not seem to be any correlation between solo diving and higher incident rates. The data set is not complete or large enough to prove it out yet I would say that IMO solo diving would trend towards lower incidents and "be safer" with the diver paying more attention to planning and executing the dive properly.

There is also one incident, that I know, of a solo diver that stopped a team incident from occurring. One team member was separated from the other two and had rolled off their post, as that member was getting to the end of their gas in the one open cylinder they came into contact with the solo diver who donated gas and exited with the diver. Though a rare statistical anomaly it resulted in a positive outcome due to solo divers tending to carry more reserve gas for an emergency. I find it interesting that teams tend to push their gas reserves more when they should be thinking about how their teammate may use up more of the planned reserve if something goes wrong.

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I've been unimpressed with the DAN/BSAC/Rodale's accident reporting analysis. They seem to be a little too liberal when it comes to labeling 'solo' a contributing factor. I've notice them apply it to a lot of situations involving unintentional buddy separation. There is also no reliable data about how many solo dives occur vs. team dives. Just knowing that fewer people die while solo is misleading because there are likely fewer solo dives as well.

Tom

Any cave instructor teaching a private class is essentially diving solo..... :D

Safe diving,

Rich

The Red Cross swim buddy model has never been 100% compatible with scubadiving and has always had some "cons" that are conveniently ignored to maintain support for the model by focusing only on the "pros" - even when multiple fatalities occur that are directly related to a buddy model.

A potential change in attitude that may be developing is the increasing number of solo certed divers and the recognition in some technical diving communities that some dives are more easily and safely conducted as solo dives (with due regard given to the need for prudence in planning and larger gas reserves.)

Now, we can argue that new solo rules would provide new ways for divers to circumvent rules, but the fact is that divers circumvent the current rules anyway. I've on occassion had a "third" diver conveniently place himself in our general vicinity when entering Peacock, and on a busy day it's not hard for a solo diver to enter or exit with other teams with no real risk of being identified by park staff as a solo diver. In that regard allowing solo diving for properly certed or qualified divers would probably enhance safety in the parks.

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Originally Posted by b1gcountry

I've been unimpressed with the DAN/BSAC/Rodale's accident reporting analysis. They seem to be a little too liberal when it comes to labeling 'solo' a contributing factor. I've notice them apply it to a lot of situations involving unintentional buddy separation. There is also no reliable data about how many solo dives occur vs. team dives. Just knowing that fewer people die while solo is misleading because there are likely fewer solo dives as well.

Tom

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I agree. The general assumption that is made is that Solo = Bad.

That is very simplistic and leads to incorrect conclusions. You need to analyze how many accidents in teams resulted in multiple fatalities and balance that with the number of times where a team member may have "saved" a team mate in a situation where that person may not have survived on their own. The same applies to solo dives and accidents - you need to assess whether dving solo made any difference in the outcome or not.

It is not enough to look at just whether a fatality or "save" occurred on a solo dive or on a team dive but rather whether the solo or team status made any significant difference in the outcome.

In my experience I am more likely to do some dives solo than on a team simply because the addition of another person on the dive increases the complexity of the dive, increases the difficulty in dive communication, increases issues due to silt, transit of restrictions, etc, and increases the psychologoical pressure that may prevent turning the dive when one or both divers feels themselves slipping outside their comfort zone but are unwilling to admit it or express it in a team situation.

When my mother heard that I frequently dive solo in open water, she started pressuring me to write a will...

And unfortunately, that is the attitude of the general public toward solo diving.

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Originally Posted by floridakid

When my mother heard that I frequently dive solo in open water, she started pressuring me to write a will...

And unfortunately, that is the attitude of the general public toward solo diving.

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Also could be she knows you better than anyone else :-D

Cave diving is solo diving on a social basis.... ;)

Safe diving,

Rich

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Originally Posted by Puttzer

How many times have we had a problem that our buddy helped us out?

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And how many times did a buddy talk someone into a dive they clearly weren't trained or ready for that ended in a fatality? I can think of a couple off the top of my head.

Has solo diving always been prohibited in State Parks? I want to say that when I first started cave diving solo diving was permitted at Peacock, but I'm not certain of that. If solo diving was allowed there previously, does anyone know the circumstances that occurred to change that policy? Bill mentioned a specific incident. Does anyone have more details about it? What? When? How long after the incident rules were changed?

Brian

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Originally Posted by FW

Also could be she knows you better than anyone else :-D

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Haha, I guess. Even though solo diving is probably one of the safest recreational activities I partake in, lol

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Originally Posted by floridakid

. . . And unfortunately, that is the attitude of the general public toward solo diving.

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The way I figure it, the state already allows "cave diving."

Don't know about you, but my family still drives me crazy for doing it + everyone you meet knows, "It's the most dangerous sport on the face of the earth," or something to that effect.

Here's my point: The state already allows "the most dangerous sport" in its parks. So, solo diving might be viewed, depending on how it's presented, as just a matter of degree, if you follow that logic.

I'm wondering, with all the solo divers, agencies certifying solo divers, apparently no bad statistics on solo diving, etc., whether or not the time is right to ask the park service, or whomever is in charge of these things, to take a fresh look at this topic?

The worst that could happen is that they say "No." But, just imagine if they said "Yes."

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Originally Posted by Benthic

I want to say that when I first started cave diving solo diving was permitted at Peacock, but I'm not certain of that.

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The first time I went there, in 1996, the current "No Solo Diving" sign was there.

Edit: it might say, "Solo Diving Prohibited."

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

The first time I went there, in 1996, the current "No Solo Diving" sign was there.

Edit: it might say, "Solo Diving Prohibited."

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That's about the time I started cave diving too, so I guess I'm wrong about solo diving at Peacock. Maybe I'm confusing "solo" and "scooter".

Brian

Yes, I believe scooters were allowed then.

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Originally Posted by w ripley

Don't know about you, but my family still drives me crazy for doing it + everyone you meet knows, "It's the most dangerous sport on the face of the earth," or something to that effect.

Here's my point: The state already allows "the most dangerous sport" in its parks. So, solo diving might be viewed, depending on how it's presented, as just a matter of degree, if you follow that logic.

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I would argue that solo diving is much safer than team diving. How many times have you been endangered by an action of a so called "buddy?" I have personally lost track.

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Originally Posted by Benthic

That's about the time I started cave diving too, so I guess I'm wrong about solo diving at Peacock. Maybe I'm confusing "solo" and "scooter".

Brian

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No from what i was told there was a time you could solo dive and the solo prohibition was a direct result of a solo diver who got lost in the Olsen area if i remember correctly, i will ask my source this weekend as he was actually there at the time (im thinking 80s or early 90s). Bill

It was an incident in 1990. The diver (Darden Davis) was in my full cave class in 1988. This document takes a while to download. You can read about the incident on page 29.

http://digital.lib.usf.edu:8080/fedo...3/DOCUMENT_PDF

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Originally Posted by gasdiver

It was an incident in 1990. The diver (Darden Davis) was in my full cave class in 1988. This document takes a while to download. You can read about the incident on page 29.

http://digital.lib.usf.edu:8080/fedo...3/DOCUMENT_PDF

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It is the 29th page in the document, but the number actually on the page is 137.

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Originally Posted by huxley

Keep in mind that alot of the state parks allow OW divers to dive their parks as well. So I think this is a general rule and might be hard to argue and change..

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You are right. It is generally accepted that you dive in buddy teams,and this rule carrys over to state parks,even cave diving

This Thread got me to thinking about St. Andrews State Park so I went to there web page to see what it says about scuba diving. It states that scuba diving is allowed even in the rock jetties and that the park rents scuba gear. No mention of No Solo Diving Premitted. Then I go to Peacock Spring state park and pull up the same ICON on scuba diving to see what their requirments are at that park and it states No Solo Diving Premitted. Looks like different rules for different Parks.

Fred

I have soloed several times at St Andrews without any difficulty

When you enter the water at St. Andrews you leave the park. Nobody even checks C-cards.

I delved into this topic before & I will expound on it here. You solo enough, you reach a point that it becomes mundane or boring. It is much more fun to share your exploration with a good friend who enjoys the same activity as you. If you feel you are on top of your game or on your edge, & have the clear mind to solo, then by all means go for it, but don't screw up to make things hard for the rest of us. In the state parks the rules of no solo are there for the masses that filter thru them. It is intended to prevent more accidents.
There are numerous hidden springs that are safe to dive solo, but don't make a marturer of youself by buying the farm ahead of your time. Do it safely & within your abilities. By all means ck & dble ck your gear. Use a CO tester as well. Don't push it beyond your abilities or limits. Better yet find a good buddy !
Happy Halloween & dive safe.
:yawinkle:
jack

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Originally Posted by JE

I delved into this topic before & I will expound on it here. You solo enough, you reach a point that it becomes mundane or boring. It is much more fun to share your exploration with a good friend who enjoys the same activity as you. If you feel you are on top of your game or on your edge, & have the clear mind to solo, then by all means go for it, but don't screw up to make things hard for the rest of us. In the state parks the rules of no solo are there for the masses that filter thru them. It is intended to prevent more accidents.
There are numerous hidden springs that are safe to dive solo, but don't make a marturer of youself by buying the farm ahead of your time. Do it safely & within your abilities. By all means ck & dble ck your gear. Use a CO tester as well. Don't push it beyond your abilities or limits. Better yet find a good buddy !
Happy Halloween & dive safe.
:yawinkle:
jack

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I haven't been cave diving long...but being that I'm the mom of a three year old and have a husband who also cave dives, I find it hard to be able to dive with my designated buddy when we don't have a family member or trusted sitter around. I regularly dive solo at Ginnie, or Little River (at least once a week) and actually prefer it in most cases. I feel like I'm not tying my husband down (he's full cave, I'm only intro) and I can do my own thing, swim as fast or slow as I want, stop and check out some formation if it interests me, I don't have a buddy to worry about and they don't worry about me. So far, I've not gotten bored, I hope I don't ever reach that point, after all...cave diving is one of the most thrilling things out there. Just amazing! Like being in space. :) Anyhow, I wish I could dive some of the other parks solo, I'd love to be able to mix up my diving a bit and dive Peacock solo one weekend, Little River another, and Ginnie any evening as I do now. People that have to be reminded of staying in personal limits/abilities probably don't need to be cave diving anyhow.

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Originally Posted by JE

I delved into this topic before & I will expound on it here. You solo enough, you reach a point that it becomes mundane or boring. It is much more fun to share your exploration with a good friend who enjoys the same activity as you. If you feel you are on top of your game or on your edge, & have the clear mind to solo, then by all means go for it, but don't screw up to make things hard for the rest of us. In the state parks the rules of no solo are there for the masses that filter thru them. It is intended to prevent more accidents.
There are numerous hidden springs that are safe to dive solo, but don't make a marturer of youself by buying the farm ahead of your time. Do it safely & within your abilities. By all means ck & dble ck your gear. Use a CO tester as well. Don't push it beyond your abilities or limits. Better yet find a good buddy !
Happy Halloween & dive safe.
:yawinkle:
jack

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Some of us like the peace and quiet. It's quite relaxing.

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Originally Posted by CaveMD

Some of us like the peace and quiet. It's quite relaxing.

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+1 on both points

There seems to be a number of divers who would like to solo dive. Personally, I appreciate all of those whom are against it - and I know some of you are strongly not in favor - for not sidetracking this thread, as it says volumes about the maturity of cave divers, IMO.

One thought would be to see if NACD, or some other recognized cave-diving group, would take up such an effort (and I don't know if NACD supports solo diving), as it will take a recognize group to open the requisite doors. I'm only guessing at this point but that's what I'm thinking. NACD, for example, has its annual activities planned in 2 weeks, so that may be a good place to talk it up and see if there is interest. I know one diver/instructor is thinking about writing an article in support, and having that "published" would certainly be a welcomed start.

Getting solo diving recognized by the state is not going to happen by itself, so any ideas, in addition to the ones already mentioned in this thread, are appreciated.

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Originally Posted by w ripley

There seems to be a number of divers who would like to solo dive. Personally, I appreciate all of those whom are against it - and I know some of you are strongly not in favor - for not sidetracking this thread, as it says volumes about the maturity of cave divers, IMO.

One thought would be to see if NACD, or some other recognized cave-diving group, would take up such an effort (and I don't know if NACD supports solo diving), as it will take a recognize group to open the requisite doors. I'm only guessing at this point but that's what I'm thinking. NACD, for example, has its annual activities planned in 2 weeks, so that may be a good place to talk it up and see if there is interest. I know one diver/instructor is thinking about writing an article in support, and having that "published" would certainly be a welcomed start.

Getting solo diving recognized by the state is not going to happen by itself, so any ideas, in addition to the ones already mentioned in this thread, are appreciated.

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The NACD makes themselves very clear on their noncommittal stance on solo :P

The full cave book says something to the affect of "the NACD does not condemn nor condone solo diving, blahblahblah up to each diver to make his own decisions about the safest way to conduct his diving something another"

You know solo diving in state parks probably isn't going to happen,but one consideration,the state parks don't multitask well. What does this mean? Efforts being made to gain new access will be sidelined while this subject is being considered.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

You know solo diving in state parks probably isn't going to happen,but one consideration,the state parks don't multitask well.

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No Kidding! The State organizations don't even SINGLE Task well!

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Originally Posted by b1gcountry

No Kidding! The State organizations don't even SINGLE Task well!

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From the myriad of projects and requests I've done with the state,they do things actually quite well,but at their own pace. I have found that if you give them too many things at the same time,that things get diluted,and then everything moves slower.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

You know solo diving in state parks probably isn't going to happen,but one consideration,the state parks don't multitask well. What does this mean? Efforts being made to gain new access will be sidelined while this subject is being considered.

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I would much rather see more sites opened than have the state preoccupied with the decision to allow people to dive existing sites, without a buddy.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

From the myriad of projects and requests I've done with the state,they do things actually quite well,but at their own pace. I have found that if you give them too many things at the same time,that things get diluted,and then everything moves slower.

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+1

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

I would much rather see more sites opened than have the state preoccupied with the decision to allow people to dive existing sites, without a buddy.

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+1

Slow and steady wins the race, and pick your battles.

I brought up the idea today at the NACD business meeting. They said it would be reviewed, which is all I can ask.

It appears, as previously indicated, that NACD will have to take a formal position on allowing solo diving before they can support such an effort. Several comments about they would be condoning solo diving if they were to support solo diving in the state parks. That's certainly understandable. Still, they are talking more and more about teaching CCR cave diving, so maybe it would be a good time to revisit their position on solo cave diving, as well.

IMHO I don't imagine the State Parks are going to change their position on solo diving regardless of the position of one or more training agencies.

Just my 2 cents.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

Funny, they didn't ban teams of two even after several fatalities involving a team of two...

Yet, we see Australia making additional and burdensome rules after a single fatality there. At the risk of yet another yet, we appear to have seen a fatality just months after these additional rules-- perhaps rules don't stop some fatalities...

However, it IS a fact of life that deaths affect the rules and access. Sometimes for good reason-- accident analysis guidelines are a good way "rules" were changed based on deaths.


b.

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Yes, we are running scared after 3 deaths in 18 months (after 30 years with none, post formation of CDAA). There are many reasons why, few rational. Mainly because we have had no deaths in 30 years I think. Everyone started thinking it was a risk free activity and lots of the new cave divers see it as a simple, safe fun activity with no risks. Go figger.. One bloke posted on the CDAA forum after this last death that he didn't realise you could die cave diving!

The CDAA started changing the rules before any accident analysis (or the coroners court) was done. That does not strike me as a rational way to deal with a problem.

Our CDAA forum has been full of debate about solo diving since the first death in a sinkhole in March 2010. All 3 have been (erroneously, IMO) labelled solo diving. The first, his buddy had left him and exited the water (unclear why) the second was Agnes Milowka (yes, solo, extreme exploration), the third separated from buddy again. We seem to be having different definitions of "solo". The anti people see every event where the buddies aren't glued together as "solo". This then gets labelled as a "solo" diving accident or death.

We are also having little discussion on the formal forum about broken rules. EVERYTHING is hysteria about "solo" AND (wait for it...) SIDE MOUNT. Because, yes, all dead divers were in side mount rig. So they were talking about banning that too until a recent change at the elections.

We have a lot of GUE (Following DIR) divers in the organisation now. The last directorate were almost all GUE. You can decide if you think that has affected the policies and views in CDAA in recent years.

So, we have a couple of private forums where the pro solo, pro side mount, pro personal choice and responsibility mob gather for some peaceful, polite discussion.

No CDAA controlled sites allow solo (that's the "in the water alone" definition) diving. Luckily they don't control the whole country.

When I did the test for full cave a couple months ago, one of the question was if you would ever do a solo cave dive and why, please explain. As of my instructor those was the new test. Don't know if everyone uses the same test for the full cave class or if it is up to the instructor but it appeared to me more of a question that is neither wrong or right, just depended on how you would explain and what precautions you would take. Anyhow I answered with yes and passed the test!

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Originally Posted by tflaris

IMHO I don't imagine the State Parks are going to change their position on solo diving regardless of the position of one or more training agencies.

Just my 2 cents.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Yep you are right,actually that agency will do more damage to their credibility by pursuing this. Why? Buddy diving is considered a safety issue,and the agencies are looked up as promoting safety,so pursuing solo diving in the parks will seem oxymoronic.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Yep you are right,actually that agency will do more damage to their credibility by pursuing this. Why? Buddy diving is considered a safety issue,and the agencies are looked up as promoting safety,so pursuing solo diving in the parks will seem oxymoronic.

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Kelly, seen the news lately? We are a country run by oxymorons.

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Originally Posted by Wizard

Kelly, seen the news lately? We are a country run by oxymorons.

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You have the morons part right for sure!

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Originally Posted by huxley

When I did the test for full cave a couple months ago, one of the question was if you would ever do a solo cave dive and why, please explain. As of my instructor those was the new test. Don't know if everyone uses the same test for the full cave class or if it is up to the instructor but it appeared to me more of a question that is neither wrong or right, just depended on how you would explain and what precautions you would take. Anyhow I answered with yes and passed the test!

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Was your instructor Jim Wyatt? He writes his own tests.

Tom

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Originally Posted by huxley

When I did the test for full cave a couple months ago, one of the question was if you would ever do a solo cave dive and why, please explain. As of my instructor those was the new test. Don't know if everyone uses the same test for the full cave class or if it is up to the instructor but it appeared to me more of a question that is neither wrong or right, just depended on how you would explain and what precautions you would take. Anyhow I answered with yes and passed the test!

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Same question on my Intro test. I answered that I had no plans to solo now (at that time) but may in the future depending on training, comfort with the system, and experience gained. I have solo'd in Caverns that I am comfortable in, mainly for the purpose of working on trim with new gear configurations before an upcoming Cave dive.

To me its all about personal responsibility, and if I die Solo Diving, please by all means tear my dive, my plan, my gear configuration, my mafia debts, and my secret life to SHREDS here, so that others may learn from any and all risks and stupidity on my part..... Just be kind to my wife, and my girlfriend, and my secret girlfriend....

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Originally Posted by DogHouseDiver

To me its all about personal responsibility, and if I die Solo Diving, please by all means tear my dive, my plan, my gear configuration, my mafia debts, and my secret life to SHREDS here, so that others may learn from any and all risks and stupidity on my part..... Just be kind to my wife, and my girlfriend, and my secret girlfriend....

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No worries, dude, everyone will just say it was a medical related death like they always do and no IUCRR report will ever come out.

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Originally Posted by DogHouseDiver

Just be kind to my wife, and my girlfriend, and my secret girlfriend....

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LOL

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Originally Posted by Curt Bowen

We don't need the agencies to do something constructive!

I say we come up with something that needs to get done, and make it happen.

All we need is

IDEAS?

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Can we try and get the agencies to push for solo diving at peacock? It was closed due to an accident that happened almost 25 years ago. I don't know who to contact. If I did, I would have already sent letters petitioning for it.

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Originally Posted by inverted_bear

Can we try and get the agencies to push for solo diving at peacock? It was closed due to an accident that happened almost 25 years ago. I don't know who to contact. If I did, I would have already sent letters petitioning for it.

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Its been made very clear by kelly that it isnt going to happen. Be happy you can dive there with a buddy. No need to poke the bear just to try and get something that wont happen


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Originally Posted by inverted_bear

Can we try and get the agencies to push for solo diving at peacock? It was closed due to an accident that happened almost 25 years ago. I don't know who to contact. If I did, I would have already sent letters petitioning for it.

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Make a friend. Its good to have friends. Go diving with your friend.

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Originally Posted by rddvet

No need to poke the bear just to try and get something that wont happen

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How am I "poking the bear?" For the most part, everybody I've seen has either supported or been neutral about solo cave diving at peacock. What's the harm in trying to get the agencies to support solo? If the agencies would get behind it (even slightly), then maybe the state will reconsider the issue. From a logistical standpoint, peacock doesn't even allow open water divers, so there wouldn't even have to be cave vs ow specific rules.

I am in no way advocating violating the current rules, so I don't see how I'm "poking the bear."

Edit: Im not saying I'm against buddies. Wouldn't it be nice to have the option to solo dive there open?

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Originally Posted by inverted_bear

. From a logistical standpoint, peacock doesn't even allow open water divers, so there wouldn't even have to be cave vs ow specific rules.

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Peacock allows open water diving in Orange Grove.

FWIW,the solo diving issue comes up in state parks all the time. All I can say is knock yourself out. Maybe the group that gets excluded from fishing at Peacock 1 can get permission too.

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Originally Posted by inverted_bear

How am I "poking the bear?" For the most part, everybody I've seen has either supported or been neutral about solo cave diving at peacock. What's the harm in trying to get the agencies to support solo? If the agencies would get behind it (even slightly), then maybe the state will reconsider the issue. From a logistical standpoint, peacock doesn't even allow open water divers, so there wouldn't even have to be cave vs ow specific rules.

I am in no way advocating violating the current rules, so I don't see how I'm "poking the bear."

Edit: Im not saying I'm against buddies. Wouldn't it be nice to have the option to solo dive there open?

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Poking the bear as in we dont need to annoy the parks deparment with it. The answer is no. Its been made lear it will not happen. So why annoy the agency that allows us to dive there with little rules. They nicely started extending hours over the summer again last year. Thats attainable and probably wont annoy people. You ask for the same thing over and over again though, they may eventually get tired of it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Peacock allows open water diving in Orange Grove.

FWIW,the solo diving issue comes up in state parks all the time. All I can say is knock yourself out. Maybe the group that gets excluded from fishing at Peacock 1 can get permission too.

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I would be happy if they just opened up solo at p1. You could just swim the grand traverse if you wanted to go to OG. The reason they never even consider changing the solo issue is because it's only individuals asking one at a time. If a large chunk of the cave diving community asked, maybe they will actually seriously consider it. The answer very well may still be no, but then at least we tried. I still don't see how a few politely worded letters/emails with an attached signature sheet is "poking the bear." 100 different cave divers asking the same ranger the same question might be. I'm suggesting we organize as a community and write to the higher ups in the state government and parks department. The only way for them to take us seriously is if the agencies back the idea that solo cave diving is safe.

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Originally Posted by inverted_bear

I would be happy if they just opened up solo at p1. You could just swim the grand traverse if you wanted to go to OG. The reason they never even consider changing the solo issue is because it's only individuals asking one at a time. If a large chunk of the cave diving community asked, maybe they will actually seriously consider it. The answer very well may still be no, but then at least we tried. I still don't see how a few politely worded letters/emails with an attached signature sheet is "poking the bear." 100 different cave divers asking the same ranger the same question might be. I'm suggesting we organize as a community and write to the higher ups in the state government and parks department. The only way for them to take us seriously is if the agencies back the idea that solo cave diving is safe.

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There are lots of places that allow solo. One important thing to notice about them is, the predominance of divers there are teams. There isn't "a large chunk of the cave diving community" to ask the State Parks to change their rules.

Another important issue is what it took to get permission to dive in the Parks at all. Even Sheck Exley who was actually a solo diver, and was instrumental in getting the parks to allow diving, didn't push for solo. He knew that it was far better to get permission to dive at all, than to hold out for solo.

I wouldn't go as far as saying it would never happen, but it won't be until all the OW training agencies advocate solo diving.

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Originally Posted by inverted_bear

. If a large chunk of the cave diving community asked, maybe they will actually seriously consider it. The answer very well may still be no, but then at least we tried..

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We did that for requesting access to Wakulla. It included a public meeting held in Crawfordville, and letter writing by the nonlocals. It wasn't successful, and a reason was risk management for a place this deep. Solo diving as Forrest alluded to is not recognized as an activity that the OW agencies condone, in fact buddy diving is heavily promoted. If solo diving is not allowed in OW basins like Troy, OG, etc, what likelihood will it be allowed with cave diving. The state in my opinion does a great job of managing recreation and they do things that make sense. For example,as I mentioned,why not allow all the people wanting to fish to come over to Peacock 1,with those nice steps and catch those Sunfish? But the state knows that there are divers there and they don't allow fishing. Anybody remember the jumping platform at Madison? The removal of that angered locals, and even decreased some attendance. But how many of us want a person jumping from the platform and landing on us. I am sure there are people who would like to jetski between P1 and P3. If people want to expend their energy on this,good luck,but there are so many ways that we can expend our time with some real positive gains

The last few posts were transferred here form the "Let's do something constructive" thread.

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Originally Posted by inverted_bear

I would be happy if they just opened up solo at p1. You could just swim the grand traverse if you wanted to go to OG. The reason they never even consider changing the solo issue is because it's only individuals asking one at a time. If a large chunk of the cave diving community asked, maybe they will actually seriously consider it. The answer very well may still be no, but then at least we tried. I still don't see how a few politely worded letters/emails with an attached signature sheet is "poking the bear." 100 different cave divers asking the same ranger the same question might be. I'm suggesting we organize as a community and write to the higher ups in the state government and parks department. The only way for them to take us seriously is if the agencies back the idea that solo cave diving is safe.

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I don't believe State ever approves it for liability reasons unless protected by law against ridiculous and shameful law suites started by survivors of deceased divers. However why don't we start a thread in support of safe solo diving perhaps it reveals a count of us who demand it. Contrary to open water scuba there are scenarios when solo cave dive is actually safer than a team dive. General diving public just don't realize it.

I can walk into a kindergarten and tell you who might be solo divers, and who will only dive in teams. The kids playing alone will be solo divers, the kids playing in groups will be team divers.

The Federation Francais de Spelologie (FFS) teach cave diving solo, with a 1:1 instructor:student ratio. When the instructor is behind you in the dark, watching, you are as good as alone. The goal is to produce a cave diver that will share gear among the non-divers and the team gets the diver and gear through the dry cave to the water, then the diver gears up to dive alone while the team make soup or hot chocolate or whatever, for the diver's return, then the team share the load and exit the cave together. Only the diving bit is done solo, it is still very much a team activity.

There are a couple of caves I would rather dive alone (e.g. MarchePied) but usually I'd prefer diving with friends anyday. Sometimes though, you just can't find a suitably trained or equipped buddy on the exact day you want one, and that's when I dive alone, (as I was trained to). But, I can't imagine that ever happening at Peacock - there's always other cave divers in the area, (otherwise, go to Ginnie or LR).

Just my opinion but I agree with the others, I'm grateful we can dive Peacock and am happy to leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by inverted_bear

I would be happy if they just opened up solo at p1. You could just swim the grand traverse if you wanted to go to OG. The reason they never even consider changing the solo issue is because it's only individuals asking one at a time. If a large chunk of the cave diving community asked, maybe they will actually seriously consider it. The answer very well may still be no, but then at least we tried. I still don't see how a few politely worded letters/emails with an attached signature sheet is "poking the bear." 100 different cave divers asking the same ranger the same question might be. I'm suggesting we organize as a community and write to the higher ups in the state government and parks department. The only way for them to take us seriously is if the agencies back the idea that solo cave diving is safe.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

We did that for requesting access to Wakulla. It included a public meeting held in Crawfordville, and letter writing by the nonlocals. It wasn't successful, and a reason was risk management for a place this deep. Solo diving as Forrest alluded to is not recognized as an activity that the OW agencies condone, in fact buddy diving is heavily promoted. If solo diving is not allowed in OW basins like Troy, OG, etc, what likelihood will it be allowed with cave diving. The state in my opinion does a great job of managing recreation and they do things that make sense. For example,as I mentioned,why not allow all the people wanting to fish to come over to Peacock 1,with those nice steps and catch those Sunfish? But the state knows that there are divers there and they don't allow fishing. Anybody remember the jumping platform at Madison? The removal of that angered locals, and even decreased some attendance. But how many of us want a person jumping from the platform and landing on us. I am sure there are people who would like to jetski between P1 and P3. If people want to expend their energy on this,good luck,but there are so many ways that we can expend our time with some real positive gains

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I don't always agree with Kelly on access issues, but ignoring his opinion on such matters is a good way waste your time, money, and energy banging your head against the hardest part of a wall.

The cave diving community currently enjoys a decent relationship with DEP. That relationship exists because both sides (mostly) work together to achieve reasonable goals. Should we (as a community) invest our efforts and good will trying to change the solo diving policy at one park? How many cave divers will this help? What small percentage of overall users want to dive Peacock solo?

I'd much rather have another system opened.

I'm a college student with some time on my hands. I wouldn't mind writing letters making the case for both. Which sites would be "reasonable" to ask for that would benefit the whole community? I'm still in the reasonably shallow tourist cave only phase of diving.

Newly trained cave divers and solo diving.... interesting combination.

Ride down to nest and try your hand solo down there, that site hardly ever gets any bad press...gack yourself there so we can fight to keep a decent cave open. At least the energy will be well invested.

Maybe your letter writing energy would be better spent finding cave diving buddies to help you decide where best to invest your energy.

Thinking out loud here...
Bob

I was patiently waiting for Floridabob to add to this discussion. It was worth the wait.

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Originally Posted by Sh0use

Newly trained cave divers and solo diving.... interesting combination.

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75 posts so far but this "one sentence" from SHOuse sums it all up!

I'm no longer a member of the BOD or the CDS Training Committee so I can't speak on their behalf but I will go out on a limb and say to you ( inverted-bear ) that you have a snowballs chance in hell of getting any of the cave agencies to ask our Florida Park system to allow solo diving. At one point, solo diving was even considered as an addition to the current five rules of accident analysis so, to say once again, NO agency is going to jump on this request. You, as an individual, along with all your buds can write all the letters you want but don't look for ANY support from the organizations who try to do all they can to make diving safer.
Mods, you might as well close this thread out because there's no place else for it to go!!

I used "energy" three times in a short post.

I'm out of practice and I apologize.

Bob

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Originally Posted by floridabob

I used "energy" three times in a short post.

I'm out of practice and I apologize.

Bob

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I am envisioning an Eveready Bunny with a stacked lithium DPV pack. Yeah, you are on the money,apologies not needed.

considering that most of my cave dives are solo, I wouldnt mind being able to dive peacock solo and check out areas that most people dont visit. If Little river can allow solo, why cant peacock do the same (i know there are differences between state vs county..) JB allows solo/dpv (county), Little River allows solo/dpv (county), Manatee allows DPV (state/limitations)

Will i get hell bent on not being able..no.

Perhaps a compromise to allow solo on certain occasions or even DPV (like a few days a month, quota system). I would even accept providing a dive plan to the park to trade for such allowances. Opening solo & dpv would likely open flood gates for people who have been waiting for it..hence managing some restrictions. However, the state is unlikely willing to manage such an overhead.

anyway...my 2c

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Originally Posted by patpicos

JB allows solo/dpv (county), Little River allows solo/dpv (county),

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FWIW is not a matter of these sites allowing the activity,more than they aren't acutely aware of the activities that transpire there. Little River is a sleeping giant,because there have been a couple occasions that place has been threatened to be closed down by the county. A couple solo diving accidents would make them wake up, and possibly regulate the activity. Because the place isn't Ginnie with hired staff to check ccards, and they more likely wouldn't hire a staff member to check in cave divers, I will let you use your imagination to determine how they would resolve the problem.

I remember when DPVs were allowed at Peacock, and banning them may have been one of the best things for the cave. Some people lack a valuable skill called common sense, and wouldn't limit scootering to main conduits that were big. We had people scootering wide open on the OG line, Nicholson tunnel, and Waterhole line-which blew out the tunnels, and caused scooter shroud marks on the floor. Heck we have trouble with keeping swim divers in large passage between P1 and Olsen from not contacting the floor with their hands, how is the cave going to handle low and flat areas with a DPV. I know we could have a rule to only scooter certain area,but how is that working for the other side of the Heinkel.

I give up. That's the last time I'll offer my time to try and enact something positive. It's sad because there clearly is an interest from a (smallish) segment of the community. I appreciate Kelly and the others for actually taking the time to explain why this would be a waste of time. I also take extreme offense to the post effectively telling me to kill myself. Stuff like that is what gets cave divers a bad reputation among the rest of the diving community.

For the record, I'm not solo diving in some low, silty or deep cave, as that would go way beyond my comfort and training level. I'm comfortable solo diving within the first 1200' of devils with a fully redundant gas supply (buddy bottle) and ~300cf of reserves. My instructor even lent me the buddy bottle to do the dives. I carry a backup for every piece of safety equipment except for myself. If I have a medical incident that I can't handle by myself, then it was my time to go. If I had that same medical issue while driving on the highway, I would probably crash the car and die there as well, yet we don't need a buddy to drive.

I'm open to all informed criticism of any aspect of my diving or actions, as it could help me improve as a diver/person. However, please don't judge me or my diving before you've even seen me in the water, met me, or heard the full story. Maybe you'd like to make fun of the green hose on my reg as well?

Dive safe,
Frank

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Originally Posted by inverted_bear

I give up.. I also take extreme offense to the post effectively telling me to kill myself. Stuff like that is what gets cave divers a bad reputation among the rest of the diving community.

I'm open to all informed criticism of any aspect of my diving or actions

Maybe you'd like to make fun of the green hose on my reg as well?

Dive safe,
Frank

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1-Thanks for giving up on this favor you were thinking. Its not worth the POTENTIAL headache it MAY create. A niche of a niche of a niche just isnt worth the state's time.

2-I wasnt telling you to kill yourself or try. Easy....Took that a little personal. It was hyperbole to try and impress that solo diving isnt your best course at this stage of the game. I really have no concerns if you do whatever you want solo or sneak or with another. Really do not care. Or judge. Ask anybody.

3-Your incorrect notion I was advising you to kill yourself does not even get noticed by the Public at Large....They do notice when cave divers die, though. That plays well.

4-Informed opinions were offered on your volunteering to advocate on behalf of cave divers for solo diving in state parks. That has nothing to do w/your ability or skill. Your experience is also indefensible. Dont take that as criticism. Its fact. You're new. So what, we all were.

5-I have already made fun of your green hose. But not really.

I seem to remember some PMs, maybe? Sorry if I offended, that was not my goal but it was my fault in missing the emotional investment in this thought.

Have fun diving! And find a buddy, For Christ's Sake!

Bob

PS-For those about to say something about Bernot loaning IB a tank to solo dive, I would bet cash money that's not the case. I would imagine it was for adequate bailout to be used along the way. I am thinking Frank did not have enough bottles...but maybe I'm wrong there, too.

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Originally Posted by inverted_bear

I give up. That's the last time I'll offer my time to try and enact something positive. It's sad because there clearly is an interest from a (smallish) segment of the community. I appreciate Kelly and the others for actually taking the time to explain why this would be a waste of time. I also take extreme offense to the post effectively telling me to kill myself. Stuff like that is what gets cave divers a bad reputation among the rest of the diving community.

For the record, I'm not solo diving in some low, silty or deep cave, as that would go way beyond my comfort and training level. I'm comfortable solo diving within the first 1200' of devils with a fully redundant gas supply (buddy bottle) and ~300cf of reserves. My instructor even lent me the buddy bottle to do the dives. I carry a backup for every piece of safety equipment except for myself. If I have a medical incident that I can't handle by myself, then it was my time to go. If I had that same medical issue while driving on the highway, I would probably crash the car and die there as well, yet we don't need a buddy to drive.

I'm open to all informed criticism of any aspect of my diving or actions, as it could help me improve as a diver/person. However, please don't judge me or my diving before you've even seen me in the water, met me, or heard the full story. Maybe you'd like to make fun of the green hose on my reg as well?

Dive safe,
Frank

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You ask good questions in my opinion, and that is exactly what you want to do at this point. You have good motivation and desire which is admirable,so please don't get frustrated and give up. Nobody wants to tell you what to do,but there are quite a few people who have been cave diving for many years, and have seen the struggles you are dealing with, so the mentoring and advice is good; also learned from the school of hard knocks. I have been cave diving for 20 years, and have seen some wonderful evolutions,but also know what things we can and can't change, so I don't spend time trying to put a round peg in a square hole. One thing I do know is the skills you learn in cave diving make up only a small part of your skill,but it is the mental aspect that is huge, and that only comes with experience. I am not anti-solo diving,but many of responses have been shaped by my experiences, and remember some solo accidents that could have been easily been prevented if the person had a buddy. The one common denominator was the lack of experience these people had to be able to address problems when something went wrong. To me the most remarkable one was the guy who died in Ginnie at the Mudflats. He was an airline pilot,very sure of himself and his skill, and was determined to dive because he couldn't find a buddy. So close to the exit that a simple air share scenario would have saved his life. Either way, you have to make your own decisions, and honestly where people can come off as critical, they truly are offering reasonable advice based on their own experience. I appreciate their comments and criticism of me because I am still a student of the sport, and this will never cease as long as I am active. Good luck and dive safe

I have comments and criticism of Kelly on a regular basis. You never seemed appreciative to me!

I love remembering all the deaths along the way, its kinda like a morbid "Memory Lane" pot holed with a bunch of shoulda/coulda/woulda.

Now THAT would be a good thread to start!

Bob

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Originally Posted by inverted_bear

I give up. That's the last time I'll offer my time to try and enact something positive. It's sad because there clearly is an interest from a (smallish) segment of the community.

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Huh? Dude, there are TONS of caves you can dive solo in and there is tons of opportunity to help open caves or help the community otherwise. If you run out of caves to help open in the US there are plenty more in Europe.
No offence Frank, but it seems like you made your mind up before posting a question, like in the O2 reg thread. Why ask if you don't wanna take advice from people that have been in the community for decades? People made great points about the reg and about solo in State Parks, also these questions have been answered many times already.
Here is my suggestion: Don’t be a baby and be happy when people who you should consider experts give you free advice.
FYI: We all carry a backup for every piece of gear, that what cave divers do.

Not defending Frank, but the O2 reg thread was a simple "is this a piece of junk" that got turned into something else entirely.

Which NEVER happens on CDF. EVER.

bob

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Originally Posted by floridabob

Not defending Frank, but the O2 reg thread was a simple "is this a piece of junk" that got turned into something else entirely.

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I don't think that is was what people meant. The point was that you should not use colors as a crutch to identify gas.

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Originally Posted by floridabob

I love remembering all the deaths along the way, its kinda like a morbid "Memory Lane" pot holed with a bunch of shoulda/coulda/woulda.

Now THAT would be a good thread to start!

Bob

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My wife made me take a hiatus when friend number 7 got scratched off my phone list. Maybe we should start the dead buddies thread.

That sounds less dark. I say Kelly starts it.

Bob

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Originally Posted by bent

I don't think that is was what people meant. The point was that you should not use colors as a crutch to identify gas.

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We agree. The thread morphed into a BS color bashing thread when all the OP asked "was is this reg any good"?

One more comment: Inverted-bear Initially you said that you thought we could get more dive sites ( parks, ect ) to open up solo diving if the agencies got behind the issue, which as I said earlier is not going to happen. Now having said that, most of us ( down here in cave country ) have dove solo or regularly dive solo at one time or another, including myself. Just because I do it doesn't mean I'm going to get on my soapbox and petition every dive site here in Florida to allow me to do what I want to do. Several posters have said, that there are LOTS of places to dive solo so if that's your thing, you'll have many opportunities to do so when you visit this part of the world. Peacock Springs, however will NOT be one of those opportunities!

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Originally Posted by floridabob

I have comments and criticism of Kelly on a regular basis. You never seemed appreciative to me!

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I have something even greater, I have respect. That is harder to earn.

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Originally Posted by kensuf

Maybe we should start the dead buddies thread.

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Morbid, but I think can get the point, and be respectful in a memorial kind of way

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Originally Posted by Brent

At one point, solo diving was even considered as an addition to the current five rules of accident analysis ...

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That is interesting, so there should be hard data that supported that solo diving was in fact more dangerous?
On the other hand that might have been the old days where it actually happened that out of the 6 lights in a team 5 failed..

The Germans have sniffed this thread out, time to sit back and watch the discourse!

Bob

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Originally Posted by inverted_bear

I give up. That's the last time I'll offer my time to try and enact something positive. It's sad because there clearly is an interest from a (smallish) segment of the community. I appreciate Kelly and the others for actually taking the time to explain why this would be a waste of time.

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Frank, I think there is a lot of disagreement that your proposal actually would be "enacting something positive"..

Hey, don't throw me in with the Germans.

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Originally Posted by inverted_bear

I give up. That's the last time I'll offer my time to try and enact something positive. It's sad because there clearly is an interest from a (smallish) segment of the community.

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From the very get-go I told you this issue has been brought up way too many times with no change in the rule. There's reasons beyond my knowledge or your knowledge why it hasn't been changed. There are people like Kelly and the NFSA that have a great relationship with management, and if they say it's not going to happen, at some point you need to just take it for what it's worth and just be happy we can dive there.

I get wanting to help and being gung-ho. But when you're warned that your pissing in the wind, don't grab all your toys and run away mad at us when you get a little pee in your face.

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Originally Posted by rddvet

From the very get-go I told you this issue has been brought up way too many times with no change in the rule. There's reasons beyond my knowledge or your knowledge why it hasn't been changed. There are people like Kelly and the NFSA that have a great relationship with management, and if they say it's not going to happen, at some point you need to just take it for what it's worth and just be happy we can dive there.

I get wanting to help and being gung-ho. But when you're warned that your pissing in the wind, don't grab all your toys and run away mad at us when you get a little pee in your face.

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I believe Kensuf said it best: "asshat".

Why pile on and say I told you so? Guess you just can't resist!

Bob

Edit: you are trying to be insightful. I got it now, sorry. I withdraw the " why".

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Originally Posted by floridabob

I believe Kensuf said it best: "asshat".

Why pile on and say I told you so? Guess you just can't resist!

Bob

Edit: you are trying to be insightful. I got it now, sorry. I withdraw the " why".

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Yep, there was a point buried in there somewhere. But thanks for trying to keep me in check.