Graffitti in JB

I dove JB yesterday for the first time since May. Great dive as usual. Upon my return to the cavern for deco, noticed A LOT of crap on the walls. Someone named "Nick Dorado" saw fit to carve his name into the rock in several places, some in very large letters. His pal "SIMON" also engraved his place in history. Apparently these two clowns were bored because they (or someone else?) also gouged a few games of Tic-Tac-Toe as well. Sad.

Does anyone know who these a*$holes are? This is really bad y'all. During my deco I felt like I was under an Interstate overpass in the inner city.

Oh, and for the pious individual who scrawled "Jesus Saves" in 2 feet high letters, I'll bet Jesus is real proud of you for defacing one of his dad's finer works. Somehow I think Jesus would have gotten along just fine without that.

Since the morons involved included their names in the graffiti, seems like it shouldn't be difficult to track them down.

Unfortunately, even if they get the maximum penalty allowed by law, it will be grossly insufficient compared to the magnitude of the offense.

Mike

Bil,
I was in there on Friday and noticed the same thing, I don't remember all of that crap being there just a few weeks ago when I was in there. It was very sad to see. I know it would be doing more "damage" but is it possible to scrape or buff the rocks to remove this stuff.

It would be like clearing a chalkboard, if they or someone of thier intelligance level were to return, blank slate for thier amusement. sad.Too bad caves aren't treated as endangured animals or goverment monuments. Poaching and defacing crimes.

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Originally Posted by BlindAltezza

It would be like clearing a chalkboard, if they or someone of thier intelligance level were to return, blank slate for thier amusement. sad.Too bad caves aren't treated as endangured animals or goverment monuments. Poaching and defacing crimes.

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We have set the precedent and have prosecuted a case involving defacement of an underwater cave. Florida caves are protected by statute. The result was after a warrant was issued there was a plea agreement that included a sizable fine and restitution.

If you can identify the people responsible, organize among yourselves and have someone bring it to the State Attorney and draw a complaint. Since access to Jackson Blue is administered by the County they may be the recipient of any restitution over and above the fine.

/Ken

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Originally Posted by Ken Hill

We have set the precedent and have prosecuted a case involving defacement of an underwater cave. Florida caves are protected by statute. The result was after a warrant was issued there was a plea agreement that included a sizable fine and restitution.

If you can identify the people responsible, organize among yourselves and have someone bring it to the State Attorney and draw a complaint. Since access to Jackson Blue is administered by the County they may be the recipient of any restitution over and above the fine.

/Ken

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Maybe I am old fashioned (ok, just old), but I still prefer the "tree branch and rope" method.

Sure would be nice if the NSS/CDS and NACD (and springs alliance?) could form an investigative committee for these conservation violations and take the lead in seeking prosecution. The whole process is a mystery to me and seems like a dedicated group with all the paperwork and prior experience would be a plus for the cave community.

skip

A criminal complaint to the Jackson County Sheriffs Department by a person who has seen the vandalism might be a good first step.

Ken, in the previous case, who was the investigating agency? In some states, something like this would be investigated by local law enforcement; in others, by different agencies: Fish & Wildlife, Environmental Conservation, Water Resources, etc. In any case, JCSD would be able to hand off the complaint to the appropriate agency if they don't do it themselves.

The recent study showing the considerable amount of money brought into Jackson County by cave divers might be useful in moving it to a higher spot on the law enforcement priority list. The history of a successful prosecution will also be helpful - prosecutors are more likely to move forward with a case that they think will be a winner, especially if there is publicity and an economic effect on the local community involved.

Mike

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Originally Posted by rotor60driver

Bil,
I was in there on Friday and noticed the same thing, I don't remember all of that crap being there just a few weeks ago when I was in there. It was very sad to see. I know it would be doing more "damage" but is it possible to scrape or buff the rocks to remove this stuff.

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Shawn,
I tried that with one of the Tic Tac Toe boards, to no avail. It is actually gouged into the rock. Soft rock I know, but it will take some pretty vigorous rubbing to fix it, I think. But I'm no expert.

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Originally Posted by MORGAN

A criminal complaint to the Jackson County Sheriffs Department by a person who has seen the vandalism might be a good first step.

Mike

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I'll be back down there on Wednesday. I want to talk to Edd first, and I will happily lodge a complaint if that is what is needed. Personally, I would prefer deepsix's solution, just something a little more painful. Hanging's too quick.

As you enter the cavern, is it on the wall straight in front of you off to the right towards the ceiling. If so, I did not see it on 7-30 but I think I saw it on 8-6 while in deco. Wish I had paid more attention now.

FYI, I found a diver with that name by searching Nick Dorado scuba florida. I guess the question is, " Did someone with this name deface the wall or did someone else write in the name?"

Maybe Edd can look up this name in his records?

Found a Nick Dorado on Facebook who li ves in PC and likes to spearfish. Also, he has a FB friend Simon Dorado.

The Cow Springs incident took months* and the CDS was able to prosecute because they as the landowner had standing to file a complaint. The initial process started with the States Attorney of the 3rd Judicial Circuit and a Sheriff’s investigator was assigned.

Jurisdiction to investigate may fall to either the Florida Department of Environmental Protection or the County Sheriff. Someone needs to take the lead and gather the info from all sources to present to the States Attorney and work with them and the Law Enforcement agency they delegate.

In the case of JB, the county is either the administrator of state land or the owner of the site. If so, they and only they, have the legal standing to go forward. The Florida statute 810.13 (2a) addresses cave vandalism and related offenses as a misdemeanor of the 1st degree. The county or state may seek civil damages above the fine.

To prove the elements of this crime you will need photo’s of the damage and supporting statements by those who took the photo’s. Obtain statements of divers that will pinpoint the approximate time and date of the damage is necessary.” i.e. Diver A states that on 1/1/11, I did not observe damage, and Diver B that 0n 1/3/11, I observed the described damage.” The investigative goal then is to investigate everyone who dove there between those dates and connect those visitors to “Nick or Simon.” All this can be in email form to the person collecting the data all statements should be signed or identified with a full name, address phone and email to enable the state to prepare a witness list.

If the Sheriff’s Department or DEP is willing, I would suggest someone with Instructor’s status take one of their divers for a first hand observation of the scene and use you information to support their report. (We did not have that luxury in Cow!)

To sum it up. Collate what you get and you will find these people. It will be time consuming.

One other useful tactic is to have the local newspaper publish these photos (especially the names!) Prepare a story of how a formation possibly millions of years old was destroyed as a result of a criminal act. Tie it in with tourism dollars and someone will pick it up.


* Cow took 19 months from the report of damage to the acceptance of the plea and conclusion. Hundreds of names went through the funnel. Check all diving releases. Check all fill stations and local lodging. Then some of you very talented with the internet, like the person that helped me with Cow, do a search of, twitter, facebook, myspace and where ever else people run their mouths about stupid things like graffiti. Put a piece of bait out there and see if someone bites.

Lastly, keep your findings quiet, do not post progress on the internet! There are a multitude of reasons, cases fall apart, people want to come forward anonymously or witnesses back down.

Rewards need to be considered. I’ll offer $100 for identity, arrest and conviction of the perpetrator(s) with a fund going to restoration.

/Ken

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Originally Posted by Ken Hill

Cow took 19 months from the report of damage to the acceptance of the plea and conclusion. Hundreds of names went through the funnel. Check all diving releases. Check all fill stations and local lodging. Then some of you very talented with the internet, like the person that helped me with Cow, do a search of, twitter, facebook, myspace and where ever else people run their mouths about stupid things like graffiti. Put a piece of bait out there and see if someone bites.

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Well, from Sandy's post edit, it appears we just eliminated about a year of investigation.

So, Ken - I don't remember ever hearing exactly what the DIC/Cow guys were fined, care to share?

Would it be appropriate for a moderator to change the names carved into the cave to a John Doe and change the name of the cave to ABC ? The change may keep the responsible party from knowing what is happening.

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Originally Posted by sandy

Would it be appropriate for a moderator to change the names carved into the cave to a John Doe and change the name of the cave to ABC ? The change may keep the responsible party from knowing what is happening.

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From a law enforcement background.....it doesn't matter at this point. With their names on the wall and their status on FB and the other location, you have basic probable cause for a warrant. They are likely related and do stuff together. They are divers and from the area. It is possible they signed in at Edd's or the SO but not as likely. To further it cell records can be subpeonaed to show tower usage in this area between when we know there was no damage to when it was found. Most likely this will not be necessary. A solid interview with the two would likely give the two a better way out than an all out investigation. Jackson County SO would be the appropriate agency, unless Florida is worlds different then Louisiana. Since the county controls the park, the SO would arrest you for trespassing. If they happen to see this, it would be in their best interest to do the right thing. Mark

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Originally Posted by Line Squirrel

So, Ken - I don't remember ever hearing exactly what the DIC/Cow guys were fined, care to share?

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No! I will say that the agreement called for a fine and restitution for the damage. Couple that with their legal representation and court fees I suspect under $10K!

Regarding the other posts. I do not know if facebook and other postings can be removed so make hard copies and then work on the timeline of the damage. Frequent visitors to JB can help pin point the timeline of the event and if the suspected people were there within that timeline thats a good first step. Some PM's have been sent to me that some local people are thinking about stepping up to collect the information, statements and photos. If so I'll be happy to review it (OFF-LINE) so that it can be prepared for presentation to the states attorney. If the SA's office goes ahead with a case an investigator will be assigned to fill in the who, what, where, when gathered from what you present them. The more you get done in advance the better it will be.

When it gets to the suspect interview process, let the authorities conduct the interview and determine how it gets put into the system. With regards to what your idea of what appropriate justice is, it's one thing to think it ... just don't say it on these forums.

/Ken

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Originally Posted by Ken Hill

No! I will say that the agreement called for a fine and restitution for the damage. Couple that with their legal representation and court fees I suspect under $10K!


/Ken

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Is the agreement sealed or something? If not, I find it very odd that no one is willing to state what it was... from the CDS or otherwise. In my opinion, it kind of makes it less likely that the next prosecution will go so well, if we don't know what kind of "real" punishment took place. As far as I can tell, no one got punished because no names were mentioned and no details of the "agreement" were ever posted.

Just my opinion, it's worth what was paid for it...

You know there may not be enough evidence to find someone guilty of the crime,but if someone knows they are being investigated,and this makes the Jackson Co newspaper,it will have a deterence benefit. FWIW,cave divers having an interest in pursuing this will show Jackson Co that we have concern for protecting their resource,and would be a breath a fresh air versus rhetoric like,"...scooter trench at...."

If Jackson County SO cannot prosecute the state charge, specific to cave damage, (some states differ in this aspect) there is a criminal damage to property in every city, state and county. Usually a fine and probation comes with these charges as well as some type of restitution. Either way this should be easy enough to prosecute with photo's and perhaps a guided dive into the cavern so a sworn officer can state he saw it. Edd may be sufficient as a witness due to his community involvement, only because an officer may not be able to witness the damage first hand. Obviously a guided dive, in this case, would not be out of order. In fact it may give a new perspective to JCSO and help relations get even better. I will be there next weekend and if they want I can borrow and camera and provide a sworn statement as a sworn police officer (20 years as well as a PSD) if needed. Either way, not being in a state park with multiple jurisdictions to deal with, this should be a pretty easy case. Mark

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Originally Posted by Dsix36

Maybe I am old fashioned (ok, just old), but I still prefer the "tree branch and rope" method.

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Caning works pretty good in Sinapore.

My wife is a excellent attorney. She retires in 2-5 years.

Apparently with our "leaders", we're screwed for 2-5 years.

Where are the cave diving organizations?

I am planning on driving down in Nov. I would be more then happy to take a look and see if there's anything I can do.

Thank you Ken.

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Originally Posted by Puttzer

...Where are the cave diving organizations?

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They are watching this closely. Ken Hill is the only one in Florida who has ever successfully lead an investigation and gotten it prosecuted. JB is on county property, the Sheriff is the logical one to investigate it.

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Originally Posted by FW

They are watching this closely. Ken Hill is the only one in Florida who has ever successfully lead an investigation and gotten it prosecuted. JB is on county property, the Sheriff is the logical one to investigate it.

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Nothing he can do until someone brings it to his attention. You have to call the police before they know there's a crime. I am supposing that "someone" has or is planning to call him. Then again, if I and every one else supposes "someone" is doing something it may be no one is doing nothing...? Like I said before, it would be nice if the cave organizations had a committee or group who's volunteer job was to handle these things. Cow was perhaps the first time, but now it's happened again, suggesting it will occur again in the future. During the Cow Incident, we suggested putting conservation signs in the cave next to the stop sign (or earlier) explaining the need to keep the cave pristine...no graffitti, against the law, etc. Still a good idea.

skip

I’m assuming after the Cow incident the courts have now at least established some sort of precedent in a case like this so this may help things along?? Showing law enforcement that they wouldn't just be spinning their wheels investigating something like this?

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Originally Posted by Line Squirrel

I’m assuming after the Cow incident the courts have now at least established some sort of precedent in a case like this so this may help things along?? Showing law enforcement that they wouldn't just be spinning their wheels investigating something like this?

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Cow was the first such prosecution in an underwater cave in the United States. Mind you the case progressed despite the fact that law enforcement was not able to view the crime scene except through photographs taken by cave divers and their statements supporting the photos. As in the Cow incident, there is a lot going on in the background that cannot be posted on any forum.

I just have a hard time thinking you can get convicted if not seen doing it.
Someone could write my name but it doesn't mean I did it. If somebody wrote "John Doe" ol' John gets blamed and it out money for lawers and such but in the end it looks like a question of did someone see him do it?
I think writing something on a cave wall of any type is about the most ignorant form of expression there is, other than maybe cow tipping.

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Originally Posted by Wizard

I just have a hard time thinking you can get convicted if not seen doing it.
Someone could write my name but it doesn't mean I did it. If somebody wrote "John Doe" ol' John gets blamed and it out money for lawers and such but in the end it looks like a question of did someone see him do it?
I think writing something on a cave wall of any type is about the most ignorant form of expression there is, other than maybe cow tipping.

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People have been known to confess when confronted with the evidence :-)

Remember the Bill Cosby story about the kid that threw a bullet in the stove?

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Originally Posted by Wizard

I just have a hard time thinking you can get convicted if not seen doing it.
Someone could write my name but it doesn't mean I did it. If somebody wrote "John Doe" ol' John gets blamed and it out money for lawers and such but in the end it looks like a question of did someone see him do it?
I think writing something on a cave wall of any type is about the most ignorant form of expression there is, other than maybe cow tipping.

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Fingerprints and eyewitness evidence is great on TV but it is never that easy in the real world. A thorough investigation encompasses much more and as Forrest alluded to, when presented with the evidence, good people who make stupid mistakes generally take responsibility for what they did. I am sure this is not a case of "let's go get so and so in trouble" The other side of this is this damage can be repaired and in a year or two the flow will clean the rest of it up. Thank goodness it is not a clay bank that took a lot of time to form. As Ken said, this is already being tended to and I am pretty sure the outcome here will be much more smooth than Cow because of what has already been done in that case.

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Originally Posted by FW

People have been known to confess when confronted with the evidence

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Yes, or to brag to their buddies about it, or post on Facebook about it. As my detective wife says, "My job would be a lot harder if criminals were smarter."

One of the last paper copies of Florida Wildlife magazine (gone all digital now, unfortunately) had a story about a half-witted young couple who took a deer out of season, and then posted all about it on Facebook, including photos of themselves with the dead deer.

Mike

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Originally Posted by MORGAN

Yes, or to brag to their buddies about it, or post on Facebook about it. As my detective wife says, "My job would be a lot harder if criminals were smarter."

One of the last paper copies of Florida Wildlife magazine (gone all digital now, unfortunately) had a story about a half-witted young couple who took a deer out of season, and then posted all about it on Facebook, including photos of themselves with the dead deer.

Mike

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My wife's a divorce attorney. She says facebook is the greatest thing ever! People post pictures of girlfriends, boyfriends, doing bong hits with the kids in the room, houseful of drunks with kids in jammies on couch, etc. Makes her job a lot easier when it comes time to divvy up the family goods, pets, kids!

skip

I talked to Edd earlier today. He has been in contact with the JCSO. He did not give a lot of details(and I did not ask) but they are investigating. It sounds like the investigation was ongoing before the thread started. He reminded me that anyone can view our forum and that too much information and talk on the forum could potentially damage the case. In the interest in seeing justice prevail, it may be wise to lay low and let the JCSO do their thing. I think Edd knows that all of the cave agencies are here to help as needed.

With that said, I am off this thread:)

Will make PM, first

Can threads be locked?

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Originally Posted by sandy

I talked to Edd earlier today. He has been in contact with the JCSO. He did not give a lot of details(and I did not ask) but they are investigating. It sounds like the investigation was ongoing before the thread started. He reminded me that anyone can view our forum and that too much information and talk on the forum could potentially damage the case. In the interest in seeing justice prevail, it may be wise to lay low and let the JCSO do their thing. I think Edd knows that all of the cave agencies are here to help as needed.

With that said, I am off this thread:)

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Just plain wrong. This idea that justice can only prevail if people don't speak of it, is downright unamerican. free speech and justice depend on one another. Limit one and reduce the other. Sure, sometimes the guilty go free and sometimes the innocent don't, but to fear open exchange in the name of justice, or anything really, is not what we are about. And it never works anyway. Let loose the hounds of open discourse on all subjects and honesty and good and the american way will prevail! I'm pretty sure the founding fathers put that in the constitution.

skip

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

Can threads be locked?

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Yes, but that only keeps people form adding comments. They can still be read.

Well stated Skip.

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Originally Posted by skip

Just plain wrong.

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Nobody's trying to abridge your freedom of speech, Skip. It's just that the more people talk about this on the internet, the more likely the guy will find out we're on to him, and it will give him more time to cover his tracks.

Sheesh.

+1 for what Skip stated.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

It's just that the more people talk about this on the internet, the more likely the guy will find out we're on to him, and it will give him more time to cover his tracks.

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That'd take a pretty big eraser dontcha think?

+2 Skip

There's already too much secrecy in cave diving politics :P It often seems like, what should be, the most capable cave organizations are the most afraid of their own shadows...

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

That'd take a pretty big eraser dontcha think?

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No, all this guy has to do is make a public announcement, on FB maybe, that he's heard that someone is trying to frame him by writing his name in the rock in JB. That's enough to raise reasonable doubt.

Maybe I should just send him a FB message and advise him of such.

Wasn't it Skip that warned about the dangers of saying too much on the internet just a couple of pages back? :roll:

See post #33

Do you guys who are all for open discussion and lack of secrecy believe we should be posting up our troop movements in Afghanistan? Who cares if our servicemen and women might be killed. It's unamerican to keep secrets. We have the right to know!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, I'm being sarcastic. There times when too much is kept secret and I may argue for more exposure, but I complete reject the argument that nothing should be secret. Reasonable people can discuss the merits of particular topics or incidents and whether privacy is appropriate in any given case.

If Edd and the JCSO want things secret, that's good enough for me. I mean what the heck difference does it make if *I* (or you) know how the sheriff is conducting the investigation. He's got Edd to collaborate with. He's surely not gonna come read the CDF to learn how to do his job.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

No, all this guy has to do is make a public announcement, on FB maybe, that he's heard that someone is trying to frame him by writing his name in the rock in JB. That's enough to raise reasonable doubt.

Maybe I should just send him a FB message and advise him of such.

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Is that all it takes? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

Do you guys who are all for open discussion and lack of secrecy believe we should be posting up our troop movements in Afghanistan? Who cares if our servicemen and women might be killed. It's unamerican to keep secrets. We have the right to know!!!!!!!!!!!

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Do you really find some similarity with this thread and the war on afghanistan? Can you be more dramatic?

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Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

Yes, I'm being sarcastic.

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Oh, OK, good... I thought the crazies were escaping again :)

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Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

I mean what the heck difference does it make if *I* (or you) know how the sheriff is conducting the investigation. He's got Edd to collaborate with. He's surely not gonna come read the CDF to learn how to do his job.

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I agree, but I also think the doofus who gouged into the walls probably doesn't have the CDF on his favorites list anywhere.

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

Do you really find some similarity with this thread and the war on afghanistan? Can you be more dramatic?

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That was as dramatic as I could come up with, without trying. Some people on this forum http://www.deepcaves.net/smilies/whistle.gif seem to need to be hit over the head by a 2 x 4 to understand a point.

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

I agree

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Amazing

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

but I also think the doofus who gouged into the walls probably doesn't have the CDF on his favorites list anywhere.

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I have no problem with someone having a differing opinion on a particular example. It's the giant, sweeping, overriding, "always" statements that just aren't true that I have a big issue with.

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Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

I have no problem with someone having a differing opinion on a particular example. It's the giant, sweeping, overriding, "always" statements that just aren't true that I have a big issue with.

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Agreed, when the always people show up, you should take a stand. I'll help :D

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Originally Posted by Wizard

I just have a hard time thinking you can get convicted if not seen doing it.
Someone could write my name but it doesn't mean I did it. If somebody wrote "John Doe" ol' John gets blamed and it out money for lawers and such but in the end it looks like a question of did someone see him do it?
I think writing something on a cave wall of any type is about the most ignorant form of expression there is, other than maybe cow tipping.

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Maybe, but if we have receipts from John Doe at the local gas station, a fill payment from a local dive shop, their signature in the log book at the dive sight.. etc... Then it is not a stretch to conclude that if his name is written on the wall that he did it.

All Hail WikiLeaks! Open up them secrets. Reveal all. Truth can not live in secrecy, only Lies live in secrecy. When we claim to be honest good people, then employ torture and subterfuge against our enemies we are doing nothing but showing the world we are the Liars. I would not have troops in Afganistan. So secret troop movements would not be needed. It's not a perfect world and our government will always keep secrets, but that doesn't mean we have to. And if these guys learn that the CDF is out to get them, so what? I really doubt that a few days or weeks headstart on making up a cover story will change anything. I mean come on, if you can't prove that they were there, had the opportunity, with few there before and after the crime....well, then you can't really find them guilty. If we have our ducks in a row, no amount of advanced knowledge we're looking for them will get them off the hook.

Now if they are dumb enough to brag on FB, post pics, etc., no need to hunt much further. And that's really what my earlier post (#33) was about, not that we should all go hush-hush.

I've said it before....we need signs to alert people that scratching names and graffiti in caves is bad form. The desire to leave a mark, to paint, scratch, write your name, in wet concrete and cave walls is just too great. A simple sign explaining how this is not a proper place for such behavior would do more for cave conservation than all the hoo-haw of prosecution after the fact.

I got a hundred bucks to donate for signage. Who's gonna make them and install them?

skip

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Originally Posted by skip

All Hail WikiLeaks! Open up them secrets. Reveal all. ...

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So, you support the work of Haldeman and Ehrlichman? They were doing their best to revel secrets.

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Originally Posted by skip

I got a hundred bucks to donate for signage. Who's gonna make them and install them?

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Huh? Why not just etch them into the rocks that are already there? It wouldn't cost any money and it would eliminate a few places for people to vandalize. Yes, I am kidding...

Cheers,
Jeff

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Originally Posted by skip

Just plain wrong. This idea that justice can only prevail if people don't speak of it, is downright unamerican. free speech and justice depend on one another. Limit one and reduce the other. Sure, sometimes the guilty go free and sometimes the innocent don't, but to fear open exchange in the name of justice, or anything really, is not what we are about. And it never works anyway. Let loose the hounds of open discourse on all subjects and honesty and good and the american way will prevail! I'm pretty sure the founding fathers put that in the constitution.

skip

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The free exchange of reasoned thought is most certainly protected, idle blabber is also protected but you can and should be held responsible for any negative impact of irresponsible verbal diarrhea. The attitude that you will talk about something on a public forum, even if it has a negative impact overall, just because it is your right is immature at best. Carry on mate, no windmill is safe!:yawinkle:


RAL

it's not a matter of "a right" to blather. it's a deeply held philosophy of openness and honesty. when a people keep secrets, no one benefits. We create a world where what we see and know is not what is there. How can that be a good thing? I think you and me draw the line in different places and I try to have some fun with our disagreements, inject a note of anarchic radicalism to help balance the overwhelming conservativism of today's tea party amerika (just kidding with k). Unsafe Windmills Unite! Don Skipoti is nigh!

skip

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Originally Posted by FW

So, you support the work of Haldeman and Ehrlichman? They were doing their best to revel secrets.

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No, of course I don't support theivery. Openness would nullify theivery. The problem is a civilization that works only under secrecy. We have created a system of government that promotes lies, greed, secrets, tramples the very meaning of the public trust, a system that simply could not function without deceit. Such a system is full of secrets and thus full of truthseekers no matter how evil or altruistic their motivation for finding the secrets. We create a self-feeding environment of deepening mistrust. Why can't we all just get along? If a sign had been in JB saying "Please don't carve your name, or otherwise alter, this beautiful environment. It's taken millions of years to create what you see here. Thanks for your conservation," those names would not be carved in the rock today. Just letting people know is the first thing. You can't blame them if you didn't tell them.

skip

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You can't blame them if you didn't tell them.

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yes I can..... common sense says dont carve your name in something you dont own..... and if you dont have common sense you shouldnt be cave diving.

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Originally Posted by skip

No, of course I don't support theivery. Openness would nullify theivery. The problem is a civilization that works only under secrecy. We have created a system of government that promotes lies, greed, secrets, tramples the very meaning of the public trust, a system that simply could not function without deceit. Such a system is full of secrets and thus full of truthseekers no matter how evil or altruistic their motivation for finding the secrets. We create a self-feeding environment of deepening mistrust.
skip

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Sounds suspiciously like the gov't we have today.... Just sayin'

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Originally Posted by JerseyJersey

yes I can..... common sense says dont carve your name in something you dont own..... and if you dont have common sense you shouldnt be cave diving.

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You know as I kid I must have seen an attempt every Saturday to drop an acme anvil on the head of a bird from the southwestern desert,and inspite of my parents and educational system failing to tell me this was wrong,I never did it. :-) So +1 to common sense.

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Originally Posted by skip

a note of anarchic radicalism to help balance the overwhelming conservativism of today's tea party amerika

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I am betting in 2-3 more posts in this thread Godwin's law will be validated.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

I am betting in 2-3 more posts in this thread Godwin's law will be validated.

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WWHD? (What Would Hitler Do?)

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

WWHD? (What Would Hitler Do?)

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

I am betting in 2-3 more posts in this thread Godwin's law will be validated.

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Self fulfilling prophecy :roll:

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Originally Posted by FW

Self fulfilling prophecy :roll:

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Of course! Validating Godwin's law serves an important social function. It is a commentary on the foolishness of trying to discuss anything serious on any internet forum. It is my attempt at wry social satire about the futility of the American electoral system. It is an allegory of the fractured political climate in the country.

Either that or it is sarcastic Bull**it.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

in spite of my parents and educational system failing to tell me this was wrong,I never did it.

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Kelly, the only reason you never tried it was you had access to neither an anvil nor a cliff.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Either that or it is sarcastic Bull**it.

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Don't go throwing my name into this!

OFG-1, you've got one of my heroes as your new avatar!

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Kelly, the only reason you never tried it was you had access to neither an anvil nor a cliff.

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I had access to both anvils and cliffs, but roadrunners are pretty scarce in Vermont.

I had, and have av anvil.. Just don't want to have to carry it back to the top of the cliff when I was done.. That thing is heavy!!

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Originally Posted by ed pavey

I had, and have av anvil.. Just don't want to have to carry it back to the top of the cliff when I was done.. That thing is heavy!!

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That's what DM Interns are for!

Ya know, if I moved this to the Fill Station, it might solve two problems :-)
1. It belongs there because it has gotten so far off topic.
2. Less people have access to the Fill station, like the suspects :roll:

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Originally Posted by MORGAN

OFG-1, you've got one of my heroes as your new avatar!

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Forrest in his younger days?

What ever happened to the Red Green show...? Used to be on PBS here in the Gainesville area but not for years now.

Gene, I am sorry to say that Red passed on while carving his name in JB. (just thought I'd steer the thread back on topic kinda)