The Hill 400 Thief...

...is me. I stole those unsightly sunglasses that were hanging on the shortcut line near the bats on Fridayevening. Not only am I a thief, but a bona fide a-hole as well, since I didn't even use the sunglasses before destroying them and tossing them in the garbage. I wanted to take some of the bats, too, but they have a more storied history than sunglasses so they survived my thievery this time. That, and I didn't have enough room in my drysuit pocket.

In other news, KG and I had a nice scooter dive up the mainline and dropped the scooters at the beginning of the small circuit (around 2300') to the left where the mainline veers to the right through a small restriction and then swam the nice little tunnel that comes back to the main line at 2500'. We then turned around and drifted back to the scooters, then hopped back on them and went upstream to about 2800' before turning the dive. A very breezy exit where we left the mainline at the beetle tunnel jump and then made our way out via Hill400.
31% bottom gas and 95% O2 deco. bottom time 1 hour 20 minutes; 2 minutes deco @ 20' and 4 minutes @ 10'.

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Originally Posted by GatorCaver

I stole those unsightly sunglasses that were hanging on the shortcut line near the bats on Fridayevening. .

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Truly a small world. I happened to find those sunglasses in the roller coaster tunnel maybe a year ago. Got near the end of the short cut line, needed a free hand and hung 'em on the line. They'd been there ever since. I introduced myself to GatorCaver after our dives Friday night, and he told me what he did. We had a good laugh over it.

TH & KG it was a pleasure to meet you guys Friday. Two great dives for me on Friday kicked off a weekend that just kept getting better! Perhaps I'll post it along with my Crypt question tomorrow...

That was awesome Jeff! Do post your dive, especially if it's in the crypt. That place has such a menacing feel but- still- I can't bring myself to stop going in there. Been quite a few months since I've been back there, though.
Good meeting you, and even better conversation. We will have to do the Sherwood Split someday (gotta get my SM rig put back together first...). LOL

likewise Jeff!

It would be my preference, and just me talking here, that you not remove the following items at Ginnie:

a. the bats
b. the red coral
c. the lizzard

These items have been in the cave at Ginnie for many moons. I find them to be fun and good conversation. They are not litter, nor are they causing anyone to not enjoy the caves any less than otherwise.

Of course, this is just my opinion. And I'm sure there are many who disagree.

If I could comment (and I'm sure this comment will draw out lots of disrespectful comments from others on this forum who don't like me) I find it presumptious and arrogant of you to take it upon yourself to remove these items without discussion. They have been in the cave at Ginnie for many years. Kind of like Steve Gerrard removing arrows that original explorers put into the cave in Mexico back in the 90's. It simply is not your position to decide what someone finds fun to look at in a cave. I would, however, welcome a respectful discussion and a decision by the cave diving community to remove them or not.

As a side note, just to make sure, I didn't put these items in the cave at Ginnie, nor would I ever consider doing anything permenant to any cave. That would be presumptious and arrogant of me. Not my style.

dean

Just wondering... who decides what _is_ trash in the cave and what _is not_ trash?

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Originally Posted by Tegg

Just wondering... who decides what _is_ trash in the cave and what _is not_ trash?

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Even a better question, what is trash?

You are at an archeological site. What is trash? You are at a yard sale. Again, what is trash? How do you define trash? One man’s trash is another man’s treasure. When I go into my girlfriend’s house I find lots of … junk. If I remove it, I would get trashed.

I would offer up, that we as divers should put nothing permenant in the caves, other than lines and arrows and maybe a pull rope or two. And only then after the approval of the line arrow committee. Then the issue of what is trash becomes moot.

These three items, however, like the line arrows in Mexico placed in the 90’s, have, in my opinion, become part of the cave. Cave divers would go back into the caves in Mexico, just to look at the arrows set there by famous cave diving explorers back in the 90’s. Then one person decided, these arrows have no value and don’t belong in the cave. Presumptuous and arrogant. (I should mention I consider Steve Gerrard to be a friend of mine, and that no one is perfect, especially myself).

If you want to remove these three items from Ginnie, then maybe we should discuss getting rid of the “trash” in the Trash Room at JB. I, along with hordes of others, would greatly protest at removing the “trash” from the Trash Room at JB. It is historical and part of the cave. I have only been cave diving since 07, but I can tell you that at least the Bats and the Red Coral have been in Ginnie since 07. Not sure about the lizard. From my perspective, these items are no different than the pressure gage 3,000 feet back in Madison Blue, or the trash in the Trash Room. They are part of the cave; they are not trash.

Again, this is not to suggest these items should not be removed. But only after discussion and consensus. This is NOT the decision of some arrogant individual to take it upon himself to decide what is of value to others. Trust me if you tried to remove the trash in the Trash Room, or the pressure gage from Madison Blue, there are a lot of cave divers that would be horrified, myself included.

dean

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Originally Posted by deanme

These three items, however, like the line arrows in Mexico placed in the 90’s, have, in my opinion, become part of the cave. Cave divers would go back into the caves in Mexico, just to look at the arrows set there by famous cave diving explorers back in the 90’s. Then one person decided, these arrows have no value and don’t belong in the cave. Presumptuous and arrogant.

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The line arrow wars was brought on from line arrows having a name of a group on them versus being generic.

To me one of the most pitiful things was when Steve Berman died,people started removing his line arrows as souvenirs. I remember being at Ginnie and someone showing off that they found one of his line arrows. A part of Ginnie's history with a survey/exploration project was permenantly lost,and probably sit in the bottom of someone's gear bag.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

The line arrow wars was brought on from line arrows having a name of a group on them versus being generic. .

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Yes and no.

There where three issues with the line arrow wars in Mexico.

(a) By far the main issue with the line arrow wars is who gets to decide where to put the line, and how thick the line is.
(b) placing line arrows with a dive store printed on them. This was short lived. After Steve saw this was an issue, he stopped immidately and was truly sorry for the mistake. Any new arrow placed in the cave did not have the dive store printed on them.
(c) Steve removed arrows placed in the cave in the 90's by famous cave explorers "because they were not part of the cave and therefore didn't belong there" and replaced them with big red arrows (again the newer arrows didn't have a dive store printed on them).

I know about item (c) from a first hand conversation with Steve. The attitude is exactly what is being communicated by GatorCave. He is taking it upon himself to remove something historial from the cave because he has decided, in his great wisdom, that it doesn't belong there.

Again, you can argue "what is historial and what is trash". maybe these three items have not been the in cave long enough to be considered historial? Dunno. they have been there since 07 and i'm guessing a lot longer. But that is NOT GatorCave's decision.

dean

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

To me one of the most pitiful things was when Steve Berman died,people started removing his line arrows as souvenirs.

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Yes, I forgot. What about the Steve Berman memorial in the White Room? What if I took it upon myself to decide for everyone that this memorial is not part of the cave, and should be dismantled. What if I removed the sign and all the rocks at the memorial because I took it upon myself to decide for everyone that this memorial was inappropriate for the cave? Think about it. That would be tremendously arrogant and wrong of me.

Dean...I can tell you the bat has been cave ginnie since before 1998. I saw it there the one and only time I have ever got lost in a cave. I remember both the bat and the tears on the way out.... I think it was out.

My vote...leave them in there

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

Dean...I can tell you the bat has been cave ginnie since before 1998. I saw it there the one and only time I have ever got lost in a cave. I remember both the bat and the tears on the way out.... I think it was out.

My vote...leave them in there

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The bat has been a key landmark,but has been removed in the past,and other people have returned it back. I would agree that leaving the bat there as a landmark is important,it just has had a history of getting out of hand,with at one time 5 bats being there.
I miss Leon of the Deep that would greet you at the Heinkel.

Just personal opinion, I feel that anything man made besides line & arrows should not be left in the cave. It all gets to be a question of what is acceptable or not after that. Line and arrows are for safety and do the least to impact the cave. When I replaced the 400 line many moons ago I followed the line committees decision to remove all the bats except three and the other crap that was hanging on the line. If it were up to me I would have pulled them all out but it wasn't. That area of the cave was around long before humans knew it was there and in our short time we have decided to change it with something that is not needed.

Dedications IMHO should be left on the surface if we want to have them. The caves are great because of what nature creates and to me putting things in them is like tagging mountains with spray paint.

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Originally Posted by Bobby

Dedications IMHO should be left on the surface if we want to have them. The caves are great because of what nature creates and to me putting things in them is like tagging mountains with spray paint.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by deanme

... The attitude is exactly what is being communicated by GatorCave. He is taking it upon himself to remove something historial from the cave because he has decided, in his great wisdom, that it doesn't belong there.

Again, you can argue "what is historial and what is trash". maybe these three items have not been the in cave long enough to be considered historial? Dunno. they have been there since 07 and i'm guessing a lot longer. But that is NOT GatorCave's decision.

dean

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I was trying to be facetious regarding the bats, as they have been there a long, long time- long enough that I would consider them somewhat sacrosanct. Their location at a key intersection of multiple passages adds to their novelty. The glasses, on the other hand, don't belong there for myriad reasons. While bats are associative with caves, sunglasses are clearly not. My infinite wisdom guided me to at least offer an explanation for the sunglasses' disappearance. By Deanme's logic, I can therefore empty a garbage can full of catheters in Mainland and dare any of you out there to disrupt the "historical significance" of my refuse. And don't you DARE remove them because, after all, that's "not your decision" to make. Sorry, but if I see crap (which is what those sunglasses clearly were-not even Ray-Bans) then I'm gonna remove it.

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Originally Posted by GatorCaver

I was trying to be facetious regarding the bats, as they have been there a long, long time- long enough that I would consider them somewhat sacrosanct. Their location at a key intersection of multiple passages adds to their novelty. The glasses, on the other hand, don't belong there for myriad reasons. While bats are associative with caves, sunglasses are clearly not. My infinite wisdom guided me to at least offer an explanation for the sunglasses' disappearance. By Deanme's logic, I can therefore empty a garbage can full of catheters in Mainland and dare any of you out there to disrupt the "historical significance" of my refuse. And don't you DARE remove them because, after all, that's "not your decision" to make. Sorry, but if I see crap (which is what those sunglasses clearly were-not even Ray-Bans) then I'm gonna remove it.

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Wondering when you might chime in....

Kinda fun watching this go out of control. Particularly in light of the conversation we had after your dive

I didn't subscribe to the post and had completely forgot about it! I just got back from TAG doing some dry caving...amazing how little the number of trinkets you find in those caves. No dragons, stuffed animals, traffic lights, etc etc etc. I guess when you put a regulator in your mouth, that gives you license to decorate caves. Maybe I should buy some of those insanely huge carnival glasses and put those back near the bat lines to atone for my theft! lmfao

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Originally Posted by GatorCaver

I didn't subscribe to the post and had completely forgot about it! I just got back from TAG doing some dry caving...amazing how little the number of trinkets you find in those caves. No dragons, stuffed animals, traffic lights, etc etc etc. I guess when you put a regulator in your mouth, that gives you license to decorate caves. Maybe I should buy some of those insanely huge carnival glasses and put those back near the bat lines to atone for my theft! lmfao

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No, most of those people in TAG are CAVERS, and respect caves. The problem in FL is a lot of people are DIVERS, and only swim into caves when the water is too rough on the ocean, and they don't respect caves.

A good diver will have the same respect for a cave as a reef. Sadly, there are divers that have no respect for either.

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

Dean...I can tell you the bat has been cave ginnie since before 1998.

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According to my dive logs, the first time I saw a bat in Ginie was 3/25/1989. If I recall correctly, there was only one. My notes say: we saw THE bat.

The bat wasn't in there for the first million or so years of the cave's existence.

So the bat has been there 20 years or so. That is 20/1,000,000, or less (depending on how long the cave has been there) :roll:

Do dry cavers leave footprints, marks where gear is placed on the floor, marks where they crawl through restrictions, holes where they hammer stuff in the walls to climb? diving explorers also squeeze through things and tie line to things, drag gear over pristine banks. Not commenting that these things should be banned just sayng a bat hanging from the line whether you are amused or think it is stupid is not horrific damage in any way.

That is an excellent, excellent point you make JerseyJersey. This discussion would have probably taken a different turn had I been more concise in my attempt at facetiousness (especially when talking about removing the bats). I naively thought it would have been evident, considering the enormous size of a drysuit pocket needed to hold all those bats. There is a veritable hibernaculum there! On the plus side, I did not notice any signs of WNS within the colony.

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Originally Posted by GatorCaver

On the plus side, I did not notice any signs of WNS within the colony.

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No, but I have heard rumors they've been smoking the pipe a little bit.