DR safety problem & PADI

After promising us they would a few months ago PADI came through today in a big way, they sent out an email to all PADI dive shops & instructors in the DR with a very strong reminder, warning and possible sanctions letter if dive shops and instructors continue to take untrained OW divers way past the cavern zone. The letter actually directly asks LDS to stop this or else...(yes there are also sanctions involved and mentioned).
This is going to be a major help and will surely deter at least some dive shops and is a huge step in the right direction.

From all the DR cave divers we thank PADI big time.

Now if the NACD, IANTD, TDI, SSI, NAUI could do the same that would be awesome.

:clapper:clapper:clapper:clapper:clapper

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

:clapper:clapper:clapper:clapper:clapper

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+100

This is great news
As a PADI MSDT and NSS/CDS Cave Diver, it is good to see cooperation across different agencies.

They did the right thing and I applaud them as well but cant find the symbal for it as Sludge did.

+100 more... Any chance you could post the letter? After all that work you did and as a PADI PRO I'd like to see what they said.

This is what was sent out in english and they also sent the same thing in spanish. Again a big time thank you to PADI for this.



Dear PADI Member,

I am writing to all PADI Members in your area regarding the use of the local underwater cave systems for dive tours with untrained divers and student divers. As you should be well aware, PADI Standards do not allow training dives to be conducted in overhead environments except for courses that include such diving in the performance requirements, such as the PADI Cavern Diver and Wreck Diver Specialty courses. This letter is a reminder to not take student divers into overhead environments.

It has also come to our attention that some dive operations and dive guides have been taking certified divers who are not trained in cave diving into the local cave systems. Although these may not be course training dives, they still violate the intent of the Safe Diving Practices and may place insufficiently trained or inadequately equipped divers in harm’s way. As a PADI Member, you must realize that should an incident occur, your actions while acting in the capacity of a dive professional will be scrutinized and that violating the Safe Diving Practices, especially while supervising divers, increases your liability. Further, depending upon the specific circumstances, this could also jeopardize your PADI membership.

The PADI staff understand that the vast majority of PADI Professionals do follow the Safe Diving Practices and would not intentionally place the divers under their care in such dangerous situations. However, for the few that are taking such risks, we ask that you immediately cease taking divers without the appropriate training and equipment into cave systems.

Sincerely,

Johnny Wetzstein
Director, Training
PADI Americas

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Originally Posted by phillip1

It has also come to our attention that some dive operations and dive guides have been taking certified divers who are not trained in cave diving into the local cave systems. Although these may not be course training dives, they still violate the intent of the Safe Diving Practices and may place insufficiently trained or inadequately equipped divers in harm’s way. As a PADI Member, you must realize that should an incident occur, your actions while acting in the capacity of a dive professional will be scrutinized and that violating the Safe Diving Practices, especially while supervising divers, increases your liability. Further, depending upon the specific circumstances, this could also jeopardize your PADI membership.

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*emphasis is mine

I agree that this is better that anything they have done regarding this matter to date, but this is weak. They are saying "if someone dies, we will take your PADI sticker away". It would suck to lose whatever PADI membership they have, but the results of the death would be considerably worse. If those shops were concerned with the chances of death, they wouldn't be doing this anyways.

Change the embolden text to state "if this practice continues" and this is an awesome letter.

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Originally Posted by phillip1

After promising us they would a few months ago PADI came through today in a big way, they sent out an email to all PADI dive shops & instructors in the DR with a very strong reminder, warning and possible sanctions letter if dive shops and instructors continue to take untrained OW divers way past the cavern zone. The letter actually directly asks LDS to stop this or else...(yes there are also sanctions involved and mentioned).
This is going to be a major help and will surely deter at least some dive shops and is a huge step in the right direction.

From all the DR cave divers we thank PADI big time.

Now if the NACD, IANTD, TDI, SSI, NAUI could do the same that would be awesome.

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NAUI standards are quite clear on this and easily understood. If anyone wants a clarification HQ will be glad to give it to you.

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Originally Posted by rigdiver

NAUI standards are quite clear on this and easily understood. If anyone wants a clarification HQ will be glad to give it to you.

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Every organization, including PADI, has a standard regarding this matter. The intent of the email is to reinforce these standards to the instructors who are not following them. I personally know a NAUI instructor who has taken open water STUDENTS into a cavern on a training dive. Not to call out NAUI, because I know there are instructors from all organizations who break these rules.

Good work Phillip, and thanks Johnny Wetzstein (Director, Training - PADI Americas) : )

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Originally Posted by rigdiver

NAUI standards are quite clear on this and easily understood. If anyone wants a clarification HQ will be glad to give it to you.

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It would be great to send an email or letter on NAUI letter head reminding LDS's of the established safety standards, the more agencies send this kind of correspondence out the more LDS's will listen I think.

We can forward the email to all DR shops and instructors or we can provide HQ with a list of emails and NAUI could send it out directly, either way it would really help.

Yes, and all instructor's no matter what agency should know their standards. I really don't see a need for HQ to clarify. I'd point out to said inst in private once. The 2nd time would be formal paperwork. We do have student's lives in our hands.

Of course and all instructors and dive shops ALL know the guidelines but think they can get away with this kind of irresponsible behavior, when agencies get involved as PADI and the NSS/CDS did here it makes it official that they must stop and that the agencies are aware that the LDS are doing theses kind of untrained dives. It is definitely a deterrent, and if only one shop listens and stops it is worth it.

Glad all you hard work paid off Phillip. Now where are the rest of the agencies?

I was teaching a PADI Open Water course in Morison Springs a few years ago and an instructor, who had just finished skills (kneeling down on a platform) was encouraging his students to go into the ballroom. He was leaving his class unattended on the platform and swimming them down in pairs. I am certain he was a PADI instructor because, just like me, he had a set of cue card slates attached to his BCD. I was unable to find out who this instructor was, but I wasn't exactly hunting him down after the dive either. I've often been diving with friends in Mexico and had cave guides take certified open water divers on cavern dives. I've often wondered if this practice is safe. We seemed to be going well past the "cavern" zone, but we were swimming from one cavern zone to another (in Taj Ma Ha, or Ponderosa/Garden of Eden). Is it a question of liability? In Mexico the law is very different from the U.S. Is it really a case of PADI caring in the DR, but not Mexico, because of the way liability is handled in those countries?

To adress the kneeling down to complete skills issue, I ask my students to complete all skills in a hover. If you never allow them to kneel down in the pool, and don't overweight them, they get used to doing everything neutrally buoyant. It's surprisingly easy to teach. Have them lay on their bellies so they are in a horizontal swimming position. If they are breathing correctly, and weighted properly, they will fin pivot. They get used to not holding perfectly still, because to breathe in to clear a mask they will rise, then clearing the mask they will fall. Demonstrate it that way. Tell them the only reason they are kneeling down in the video is because they are overweighted and trying to hold still for the cameraman to demonstrate the details of a skill. You'll be better preparing them for any type of diving or continuing education. I love seeing open water divers hover like their on a deco stop! Perfectly horizontal, hands clasped together in front, feet high and tight behind them, and one single tank on their back. It's sooooo cute!!!

Phillip,

Do you know if this was conveyed to Indiana University? There "professor" was taking open water certified college students into Padre Nuestro. When we approached PADI, they blew it off.

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Originally Posted by DeepSea

When we approached PADI, they blew it off.

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I am surprised to hear they "Blew it off". My experience with PADI has been that if you file a formal complaint in writing and provide details such as date, time, and place as well as instructor's name & PADI instructor number they will investigate.

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Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

I am surprised to hear they "Blew it off". My experience with PADI has been that if you file a formal complaint in writing and provide details such as date, time, and place as well as instructor's name & PADI instructor number they will investigate.

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From PADI QA

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Our Quality Management Department received your letter regarding xxxxxxxxx scientific diving activities in the Dominican Republic. We are familiar with his research.

To clarify the matter from our perspective, xxxxxxxxx was not conducting sanctioned PADI training at the Padre Nuestro location. However, we know that his operations, while not falling under PADI jurisdiction, do fall within PADI’s longstanding parameters described for cavern training with respect to depth, penetration, light zone, visibility, etc.

For this reason, in our view, there is no reason to open a PADI Quality Assurance investigation in this matter.

As an aside, we know that xxxxxxxxx has been conducting research in the Padre Nuestro cavern system for the past 12 years, with hundreds of person-dives having been made without incident. This speaks favorably to the scientific and operational diving practices applied. This research has no correlation to recreational diving, or PADI courses. PADI principals have known xxxxxxxxx and his programs through Indiana University over the years, and can verify a long history of safe and appropriate diving practices.

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Neither myself nor the others that filed the complaint felt that taking OW divers in a very silty section of a cavern in only STAB jackets and pencil lights were "safe and appropriate diving practices".

Given Phillip's success, I wonder if they would still feel the same way.

Damn....

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Originally Posted by Greenwood_60

*emphasis is mine

I agree that this is better that anything they have done regarding this matter to date, but this is weak. They are saying "if someone dies, we will take your PADI sticker away". It would suck to lose whatever PADI membership they have, but the results of the death would be considerably worse. If those shops were concerned with the chances of death, they wouldn't be doing this anyways.

Change the embolden text to state "if this practice continues" and this is an awesome letter.

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Well they are also saying any legal defense you might claim by following standard safe diving practices will not exist.

Not sure what more they can do...they cant jail people. The best they can do is no longer sanction the activities of people and stores that do not adhere to standards.

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Originally Posted by matt_w

Not sure what more they can do...they cant jail people. The best they can do is no longer sanction the activities of people and stores that do not adhere to standards.

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Why do they have to wait until there is an incident? The dive shops can be given fair warning. I say if it continues, cut them off.

I agree the "professor" is an irresponsible OW diver who should be reprimanded big time by PADI for directly putting unsuspecting OW students in harms way. We did not direct this at him directly only at all DR dive shops, but from now on PADI has asked us to report any LDS/Instructors violating safe cavern limits and we will do so from now on.

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Originally Posted by phillip1

I agree the "professor" is an irresponsible OW diver who should be reprimanded big time by PADI for directly putting unsuspecting OW students in harms way. We did not direct this at him directly only at all DR dive shops, but from now on PADI has asked us to report any LDS/Instructors violating safe cavern limits and we will do so from now on.

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I appreciate what you guys are doing Phillip!

Got the same response about a course director and shop in Crystal River, FL. He was taking OW students in past the light zone and Dive master students through a restriction. PADI response was that they had a good safety record and could not verify that this was being done during training dives. The reality is that unless a law suit threatens their $$ then real action is not going to happen. At least they sent the letter in the DR.

Bobby

I would like to clear up a misunderstanding, I wrote in earlier posts that the NACD did not help us, in fact they did but somehow the letter they emailed me got misplaced and I never got it. The NACD assumed I had received it and I assumed they were not really into helping us out, I was dead wrong.

Since reading my earlier post and being notified of this mistake Larry Green has been in contact with me and the NACD is helping us out big time with the original NACD version of the letter that they thought I had received and gave out.
This is going to be a big help and we will be distributing this letter to all the LDS's here in the next week or so.

I wanted to publicly thank everyone at the NACD for helping us out and to make clear that it was a misunderstanding that we did not receive the safety letter in the first place.

This is awesome! now with the main training agencies now helping out to improve safety in the DR we are definitely moving in the right direction and will hopefully prevent any accident from happening.

Thank you

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Originally Posted by Greenwood_60

Why do they have to wait until there is an incident? The dive shops can be given fair warning. I say if it continues, cut them off.

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I was not suggesting they wait for an incident. PADI does seem to indicate that anyone who persists with unsafe activities will be cut off.

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Originally Posted by Johnny Wetzstein - Training Director - PADI Americas

It has also come to our attention that some dive operations and dive guides have been taking certified divers who are not trained in cave diving into the local cave systems. Although these may not be course training dives, they still violate the intent of the Safe Diving Practices and may place insufficiently trained or inadequately equipped divers in harm’s way. As a PADI Member, you must realize that should an incident occur, your actions while acting in the capacity of a dive professional will be scrutinized and that violating the Safe Diving Practices, especially while supervising divers, increases your liability. Further, depending upon the specific circumstances, this could also jeopardize your PADI membership.

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This is from the PADI letter in post #7 of the thread. The emphasis is mine, and is the wording I have issue with. The shop doing this already think they are safe, or they wouldn't be doing the tours. So why would they worry about PADI's recourse if PADI is only going to lift a finger if something goes horribly wrong? At that point, they have much bigger issues than PADI's slap on the wrist.

Like I said earlier, if PADI were to take action "if this practice continues", those dive shops would have something real to worry about.

I am very happy to hear the NACD stepped up. I was surprised they didn't, and this makes more sense.

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Originally Posted by rigdiver

NAUI standards are quite clear on this and easily understood. If anyone wants a clarification HQ will be glad to give it to you.

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I talket to NAUI some time ago, they promise me a letter with the naui heather and they even sent me a draft, but the last I heard from them is that they were going to add it in the book or something, but never really got the letter to give around.

to get it clear, we don't know of anyone from naui locally doing this unsafe practices, all are padi really, but does help the extra support.

I think the letter is not good enough, but it is a big step forward, and at least they did hear finally our problem, lets see if they really sanction this practices or is only BS to be cool.